BS: Why are they leaving the UK?

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 12 Sep 07 - 08:40 PM

"conquering the rest of the wretched island, including all of Scotland as well as neighboring Ireland"--Little Hawk

"Typical imperialist Yank answer to everything--invade and occupy"--Stigweard

Sorry. We can't claim him, much as we'd like to. That typically imperialist Yank is a Canadian who likes to play war games.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 08:31 PM

An even more dangerous bug, Emma.

Don T.

P.S. I knew that about the Shuttle. Still once he's in NEO, we don't have to bring him back, do we?

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Emma B
Date: 11 Sep 07 - 05:26 AM

"TB ....... caused the most widespread public concern in the 19th and early 20th centuries as an endemic disease of the urban poor!" Wikipedia

ooops! sorry I think on this occasion it means Tony Blair

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 09:53 AM

Another dream ruined by an injection of unwanted reality.
G

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Sep 07 - 06:44 AM

Point of fact: Shuttles cannot go to Mars, or even beyond NEO.


"to Mars, if NASA will lend us a shuttle to send him there."

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 Sep 07 - 10:58 AM

"Thanks Don, but you can keep him! Anyway why him and not TB, who was also a Scot, you never offered us him back. Not that we'd have taken him either mind you!"


A revisit to my posting history will reveal that I have already made my feelings about Tony B Liar very clear.

The Scots have never done me that much harm that I would wish to inflict such cruel and inhuman punishment, which is why I suggested that we make him our ambassador to Mars, if NASA will lend us a shuttle to send him there.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 07 Sep 07 - 09:58 AM

Hey Paul, if they're giving it to you with one hand, they will be taking it away with the other. That's how those sneaky gubmints work.
It sleight of hand, an old conman trick, think 3 shells, and disappearing objects.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 07 Sep 07 - 09:47 AM

The government gives me tax relief on my pension contributions but to say that that money (the tax relief) is coming from the "tax-payer" is stretching things a bit.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 07 Sep 07 - 09:02 AM

The money the government takes in the form of PAYE or Graduated Pensions, or whatever they're calling it these days isn't 'put aside', it's spent straight away for whatever purpose they deem fit, and your government pension when it comes will be paid from current incomes.
If you supplement your government pension with a pension of your own, and your income from them exceeds your personal tax free allowance, make no mistake you will pay tax mate.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: manitas_at_work
Date: 07 Sep 07 - 08:53 AM

"you paid into a pension then it was funded in part by the tax payer"

That's a bit of a twist of logic! The govt agreeing not to tax me on any of my salary put aside as a pension (to avoid my future burden on the state) is taking money off the taxpayer!

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 07 Sep 07 - 04:53 AM

Thanks Don, but you can keep him! Anyway why him and not TB, who was also a Scot, you never offered us him back. Not that we'd have taken him either mind you!
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Sep 07 - 08:51 PM

"If you're looking for a previous period to blame for things going wrong on the streets, a better candidate than 60s "progressivism", I suggest would be the Thatcherite ethos of laissez faire and evil take the hindmost which devastated whole communities and threw millions of people out of work."

Sorry McG, but Thatcher came to power just about the time that those undisciplined, ill educated kids were producing the next generation of even less disciplined offspring.

I know you hate Maggie, but even you can't pretend that she could time travel back to the early sixties, to screw up the teenagers.

As for leaving the country, I can't even afford to do THAT for a week on a cheap package deal. I am going to have to keep working into my late seventies, courtesy of one Gordon Brown.

It weren't Maggie Thatcher that buggered my pension, it was that gormless dollop of pickled misery that just took over as PM.

God Help England, and if we asked them VERY nicely, d'ye think the Scots would take him back.

Frankly if we got rid of him, and kept all the Eastern migrants, I'd say we got the best of the bargain.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Sep 07 - 03:45 PM

Yep, I'll give way on that one Teribus and Kevin. Apologies.
BTW Teribus, thanks for your PM, I've sent one back.
S:0)

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Sep 07 - 02:37 PM

"Don't forget that between the Common Market, and the fact that the cost of manufacturing went through the roof, driving work abroad to lower wage economies they were all gone or going before Maggie arrived." - Giok

Never a truer word spoken.

As for the - "cheap 'Poles' jibe" - Backwoodsman

"I can't see why there was anything wrong with what Teribus said there. (And I've disagreed with him often enough, and I am sure I will continue to do so.) It just seemed his way of pointing out that talk about Poles overunning this country is tosh." - MGOH

Thanks for that Kevin, I'm glad somebody got the point.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 06 Sep 07 - 02:20 PM

your cheap 'Poles' jibe.

I can't see why there was anything wrong with what Teribus said there. (And I've disagreed with him often enough, and I am sure I will continue to do so.) It just seemed his way of pointing out that talk about Poles overunning this country is tosh.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Stu
Date: 06 Sep 07 - 01:20 PM

"Not the politics of envy, eh Stigweard?"

Good to see your sense of humour and ability to recognise sarcasm hasn't deserted you yet Mr. T - (unlike you deserting the UK of course . . .)

I'm not envious of you Teribus because I don't have a clue where you live - outside the UK could be, er, anywhere. My Mum was an expat for five years, living in rural France. It was a wonderful place, and I enjoyed visiting her but realised living abroad was probably not for me (although I would like to try the north west coast of the USA for a year or two.) I learnt a lot about the French, and came back with a totally different viewpoint. I developed a respect for their desire for good food and drink, their love of their language (which they debate endlessly) and of course the fact they are a Republic is of course deserving of our admiration.

What I did realise is what a load of miserable misanthropes live here, the fact we've lost our sense of community in our towns and cities (although that's not a soley British problem) and how we readily accept second-rate food and drink and eat complete shite alot of the time. My wife and I re-appraised our own food buying after returning and started buying more local produce from small retailers - fresh bread and local meat from a traditional butcher. Better quality food and cheaper too much of the time.

"By the bye I don't recall anyone complaining about the country being overrun by Poles in 194os" Showing your age a bit there old boy . . . I'm totally in favour of migrant workers being allowed in the country under new the EU rules. I worry for their employment rights (and human rights - some gangmasters are ruthless criminals) and the fact they are exploited mercilessly by the same capitialist system that has expolited it's own citizens for so many years - the fact migrant workers do the jobs everyone else doesn't want to do makes them easy targets for unscrupulous and unethcial employers.

"You all wanted the United States of Europe well you've got it, live with it."
Too right -and I'll be voting for it come the referendum.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 06 Sep 07 - 01:19 PM

That's some leap of logic Backwoodsman. That is the problem really both sides want to control the other, and there never has been, and there never will be, give and take. Union bullying is just as bad as employer exploitation, but neither side can see it.
G.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Sep 07 - 01:02 PM

So you're in favour of slave-labour then Giok? You don't believe that a man who works in a hard, dangerous environment should be well-rewarded for his toil. But presumably you're happy that someone who does nothing more than talk on the telephone and move numbers around can receive bonuses in the millions, while the first guy coughs his life and lungs away in his two-up-two-down council house?

I'm not so stupid as to believe that 'we're all equal', or that we ever could be. Some inequality is the vital spur that makes people strive to climb to the top of the heap, and in that it serves a useful purpose. But she wasn't satisfied with maintaining the status-quo, she despised the working-class and, like the true high-school 6th-form queen-bee, she was a vicious bully whose appetites were only satisfied by seeing those she viewed as 'weaklings' and 'low-class' cowering in the corner, kicked and beaten into submission.

In Dave Evardson's words from his great song 'The North Wall' - "Could they not have left a little, did they have to take it all?"

Guess who and which party he was talking about.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 06 Sep 07 - 12:45 PM

Well now that the Common Market, and other market forces have destroyed our manufacturing industries, where do we apprentice these youngsters, and to learn what. Don't forget that between the Common Market, and the fact that the cost of manufacturing went through the roof, driving work abroad to lower wage economies they were all gone or going before Maggie arrived..
Excessive wage demands and over manning due to union blackmail, caused most of that.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 06 Sep 07 - 12:37 PM

Teribus - "The chronic mismanagement creeps in when things are driven by political dogma and idealism".

You're talking about Thatcher there.

Also I'm PM'ing you about your cheap 'Poles' jibe.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 06 Sep 07 - 12:28 PM

First of all Teribus - if you paid into a pension then it was funded in part by the tax payer - in the form of relief though I suspect you wouldn't want that mentioned. Secondly Indexed linked above the rate of inflation if only Teribus if only.

And the good pensions public servants get - and ex-forces people too of course - is the first thing brought up whenever a decent pay rise is mentioned and the pay rise has been cut as a matter of course.

I certainly have no problems with people leaving the UK for a better life. Or people leaving Poland for a better life. All countries are mis-managed to some degree. But the idea that destroying large parts of British industry and (for example)its apprenticeship system, and then using the oil revenue to pay for it,(instead of investing that oil revenue in replacement industry) was a good one, has come home to roost in the form of social conflagration. So the tax-payer pays for that in the form of disaffected youth, poor schooling and some increased crime and thus an increased prison population. You and me Teribus. I am not happy about that. Are you?

As for a change from Thatcher through Major to Blair, never mind what country are you in, what planet are you on?

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Teribus
Date: 06 Sep 07 - 11:47 AM

Oh no Giok - Folkiedave is quite right about his pension fund not relying on investments - Teachers - Public Servants - The major contributor to their Pension Fund is the Government (Taxpayers Money) time, after time, after time - Indexed linked above the rate of inflation (Taxpayers Money) - Pension, or more correctly benefits, continues to be paid long after death to dependents (Taxpayers Money). The Government commitment to this lot, means that the rest lost out. When Gordon Brown raided the National pension funds, this sacred cow was left to continue grazing. Now what was that again about leeches.

Definitions:
1 archaic : PHYSICIAN, SURGEON
2 [from its former use by physicians for bleeding patients] : any of numerous carnivorous or bloodsucking usually freshwater annelid worms (class Hirudinea) that have typically a flattened lanceolate segmented body with a sucker at each end
3 : a hanger-on who seeks advantage or gain
synonym see PARASITE

So typical of the Left, now explain to us Folkiedave why all pensions aren't similarly index linked. Or is it the old "Animal Farm" scenario again, all animals are equal but some are more equal than others, isn't Socialism great.

Your pension Folkiedave is a classic example of what Stigweard came out with - "Socialism isn't about envying wealth - it's about justice and equality for all members of society regardless of their circumstances of birth." (but not job it would seem)

Another Stigweard classic:
"Socialism isn't about envying wealth"

Oh No!!

"He's talking about you Teribus - it's all your fault for doing the rodent thing and effing off to a better life whilst the country is overrun with Poles! Should have put your money where you mouth is and stuck it out with the rest of us."

Good heavens, the very thought of it! The unmitigated gall of it! People "effing off to a better life". How dare they! Those "effing" Pilgrim Fathers have got one hell of alot to answer for. Not the politics of envy, eh Stigweard?

Another little secret for Folkiedave, Stigweard and Backwoodsman - the country by and large has been mismanaged for centuries to some degree or other, but has always managed to survive. It has only been "chronically mismanaged" in recent times. Margaret Thatcher arrested the fall (as admitted very recently by the current Labour Prime Minister). The "chronic mismanagement creeps in when things are driven by political dogma and idealism instead of pragmatism and leadership.

By the bye I don't recall anyone complaining about the country being overrun by Poles in 1940. In those days without the Poles, Czechs, etc - we'd have lost The Battle of Britain.

Country overrun with Poles indeed - the only poles that have overrun the country are telegraph poles. You all wanted the United States of Europe well you've got it, live with it.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 06 Sep 07 - 04:01 AM

That's like believing in fairies, or that they spend all the monies taken in VED are spend on maintaining and building the roads!
G

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 Sep 07 - 06:26 PM

Which rich leeches Giok?

As teachers pay into their pension schemes the government take it in on the one hand and pay it out to retired teachers with the other. Since generally speaking there are more of the former (payers) than the latter (retired) they keep the difference.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Sep 07 - 04:57 PM

So those rich leeches are paying your pension?

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Sep 07 - 04:54 PM

A bit like unsuccessful bank robbers suing the guy who drew up the plan that went pear-shaped.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 Sep 07 - 02:13 PM

Retired already mate. Sorry.

And of course for many public servants the the pension is not paid by the stock market but by current income. Teachers for example - there is no Teachers' Pension Fund invested in the stock market.

And as I remember when the stock market goes wrong it tends to be the workers that suffer - never the bosses.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Sep 07 - 02:05 PM

Do you want a pension when you retire Dave?
Cos if you do, you better hope the stock market doesn't crash.
G.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 Sep 07 - 02:03 PM

I suspect that the answer would be no. When they create a tax avoidance scheme they "sell" it to clients who then use it to claim money. What happens if it goes pear-shaped is that the client sues them as in the instance I quoted earlier.

Incidentally have you noticed the banks have gone on strike?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6979933.stm

Of course it isn't called that when they do it - but that's what it is. Dodgy dealings in the sub-prime market and the Bank of England looks as if it is bailing them out!

Nice one free market!

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 Sep 07 - 12:26 PM

If tax accountants invent some fancy scheme which turns out to count as tax evasion rather than tax avoidance are they liable to be penalised professionally and legally? I'd have thought this would count as a kind of conspiracy to commit an offence, so far as the law is concerned. And it should be enough to get them struck of professionally.

Some hope.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 05 Sep 07 - 07:12 AM

they're taking our jobs!

Often the argument is also that they are over here to enjoy our benefit system, some people can even argue they are taking our jobs and here to enjoy the benefit system in the same breath.

Not all that many years ago it was the Irish who came over to steal our jobs. Of course in Ireland now, it is the other way around in that the flow of immigration tends to be the other way.

And you would be amazed at the number of Brits abroad I have heard saying they left the UK because of immigration!!

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 05 Sep 07 - 05:17 AM

Socialism consists not of bringing everybody UP to the same level, but in bringing everybody DOWN to the same level. Except that is, for Union leaders/General Secretaries driving, or being driven around in their Jaguars!
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Stu
Date: 05 Sep 07 - 04:41 AM

"Not forgetting it's politics of the people who make the wealth that the socialists grudge them"

Socialism isn't about envying wealth - it's about justice and equality for all members of society regardless of their circumstances of birth. It's about making sure people are healthy, don't have to live in fear and enjoy their human rights.

As a socialist I would agree some form of meritocracy is desirable - socialism in it's purest form simply won't work these days, but I am in favour of all our major utilities being re-nationalised and the NHS being given absolute priority over the military for state funding.

"I love this country and hate any suggestion that a person complaining about the undoubted immigration problem is automatically some kind of Nazi."

The guest above falls for the old right-wing xenophobes cry against immigrants - "Not to mention the large numbers of skilled workers being made redundant or forced into early retirement to make way for cheaper migrant workers" - they're taking our jobs! These same right-wingers espouse the very capitalist system and economics of the free market that has led to this situation - if it even exists outside of the moral mush that is a Daily Mail hack's brain (or those dullards that believe them).

"The overall population increase is only being offset by the hundreds of thousands of Brits moving abroad because they can no longer stand living in a Britain so chronically mismanaged." He's talking about you Teribus - it's all your fault for doing the rodent thing and effing off to a better life whilst the country is overrun with Poles! Should have put your money where you mouth is and stuck it out with the rest of us.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 06:56 PM

Teribus - Where the Vestey's lived doesn't matter a damn if they have qualified for being "resident but not domiciled in the UK" for tax purposes.

They lived in this country - they were not "resident but not domiciled" for tax purposes. They avoided tax by other means. I have explained this to you more than once.

Now the correct answer to that would be anybody that wants to I suppose

Well Teribus you suppose wrongly. The people who put money into tax- free off-shore schemes are the rich. They can afford it. You cannot just open up an off-shore account you need a certain amount of capital. The rich avoid paying tax that way. Thus the rest of us - taxed at source - have to pay more tax and support the rich in their tax-avoiding habits.

Now apparently the country you now live in has a higher standard of living, and higher taxes and everyone pays them.

Good.

Kindly explain why that would not work in the UK? Because not everyone pays tax here as you freely admit. Now I think it would be a better country if they did. Clearly you agree.

Welcome to the left-wing Teribus. And goodness me you were easily converted once you left the UK weren't you!!

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: GUEST,Ed
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 06:32 PM

I'm a 26 year old graduate working for Cambridge Uni, I've put myself in huge debt to get where I am now and will likely never be able to afford a house because of the state of affairs in the UK.

I have lived in the city for 3 years and have seen in this time a dramatic change in what was already a very multi-cultural city. In the last 6 months alone every shop, pub and business I visit, and even my own canteen at work has at least one Polish person working there. Last month I went for a drink on Whitehall and the situation was the same, last weekend I went on a friends stag do in Dorset, again, the same... My friends father has been laid off from his job as a lorry driver to make way for a 'cheaper' Polish lorry' driver. Builders are sacked on Friday only to be replaced on Monday by 'migrant workers', who being 'self employed' do not have to register in the same was as normal workers. Does any of this make sense?

Is it not the case that the huge numbers of migrants that do not register i.e. the 'self employed' builders etc are only offset partially by the hundreds of thousands of people like myself who have just had enough and have emigrated?

Also the economic argument for mass immigration is completely flawed, either the immigrants send money home, thus depriving the UK of income and removing money from the system (which I don't imagine is a good thing) or they bring their families with them thus causing a massive burden on the NHS, housing, schools and councils. Not to mention the large numbers of skilled workers being made redundant or forced into early retirement to make way for cheaper migrant workers. How exactly is this of economic benefit? It is a false economy and a short term and naive policy to make the government look like they are actually managing the economy properly. The bubble will burst soon enough, but it is already too late.

Not to mention the outright lies being pedalled by the Government regarding the numbers of migrants. The overall population increase is only being offset by the hundreds of thousands of Brits moving abroad because they can no longer stand living in a Britain so chronically mismanaged. I find myself feeling more this way every day. This Governments immigration policy (if indeed it is even a policy) is terrible. I love this country and hate any suggestion that a person complaining about the undoubted immigration problem is automatically some kind of Nazi.
But I can't help but thinking that the UK is truly doomed. I admire those in Canada and NZ where they have a sensible approach to immigration.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 06:19 PM

Tax avoidance schemes are available to all, all people have to do is avail themselves of them, professor. Those poor sailor's you voice your concern about, could still bring whatever additional allowances into play to reduce their overall tax (Had to claim it back though), their employers just would not let them attain the resident but not domiciled status allowed their civilian counterparts, who did not object one bit - but being of the left you obviously subscribe to there being one law for the goose and another for the gander. I much prefer one law for all applied even-handedly.

But then I suppose you have to remember the governing tenets of the whining left:

It's always somebody else's fault.

It's always somebody else that has to pay.

Where the Vestey's lived doesn't matter a damn if they have qualified for being "resident but not domiciled in the UK" for tax purposes.

"who (do) you think puts money into tax-free off-shore schemes?" Now the correct answer to that would be anybody that wants to I suppose.

Yes higher rates of tax than the UK, at least one of the highest standards of living in the world. Very good arguement for higher taxes Folkiedave, but they go right across the board and everybody pays them. How long you can spend on welfare is strictly limited, if you don't find yourself a job, after that certain period they will put you into one. The whole system is very transparent you can see what they spend the money on, they don't rob pensions as our new PM did when he was Chancellor to finance some daft experimental fad only to lose interest half way through it.

Go back and read down that list of election promises Tony was so keen on harping on about way back in 1997 - How many were kept? Rhetoric question, the answer was none.

It was the Conservatives that lowered the basic rates of tax in the UK - wasn't it Folkiedave? Which put more money into peoples pockets and most chose to spend it, good for business, good for the country. Back to a matter of choice again Folkiedave, it's all a matter of choice.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 04:42 PM

Not forgetting it's politics of the people who make the wealth that the socialists grudge them, though not always. There are always anomalies like Tony Benn and LORD Putnam.
G.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 03:03 PM

As did the person who defined conservatism as "The politics of the greedy and the selfish".

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 02:24 PM

The person who defined socialism as "The politics of envy", sure hit the bullseye didn't they?
G.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 01:58 PM

Now as you freely admit - these tax avoidance schemes are not available to all. Not even to you. Thank you. And Vestey's did live here. The tax avoidance scheme they ran was that good. I gave you the address earlier.

And those sailors you write about who were taxed at source - the UK government made sure they paid full UK tax. See what I mean? At that time they couldn't do it to the Vestey's who were not taxed at source - but my goodness me - become a low-paid sailor and the government makes sure you pay. There is a difference as you now admit. Well done for coming around to my way of thinking.

And you tell me where you live has higher tax rates AND a higher standard of living? Now that seems like an argument for higher taxes Teribus. Welcome to the club.

I am not sure what the point of me answering a question on who introduced what rates of tax when I am sure you know the answer. But whatever you say - how's that?

However there is a point in asking who you think puts money into tax-free off-shore schemes. You seem to avoid this one. Come on Teribus is it the rich putting money into tax free off-shore schemes or is it the poor?

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 11:48 AM

Something to do with residency Folkiedave.

As to the Vestey's and the likes of Phillip Green, whether they should pay UK tax or not depends on where they are domiciled. The Vestey's tax arrangements go way back to the time that Lloyd George was Prime Minister. They may own a mansion and an estate in the UK but if they are not domiciled in the UK for tax purposes then they don't pay anything. Dockyard workers working for the MOD in places like Gibraltar, Malta, Singapore, Hong Kong, etc used to qualify for this after having been out there for about three years. One of the reasons a General Service Commission for one of HM Ships was restricted to two and a half years was so that the crew would not qualify and as such were always subject to full UK tax.

If you can work at it you can attain "Resident but not domiciled" status which lifts you clear off UK Tax. I could never do that as I had a wife and family resident in the UK, therefore I was "Resident and domiciled" in the UK and as such always fully subject to UK tax, but that did not stop me from avoiding as much of it as possible.

Now questions for you Folkiedave:
- Who was it that introduced the 10% Tax band - Labour or Conservative?
- Who was it lowered basic rate tax to 20% in the UK - Labour or Conservative?

I left the UK about ten years ago. Where I live now the tax rates are much higher, but the standard of living and quality of life is correspondingly higher than that of the UK. What gets collected in tax gets spent on all the right things and one can see the improvements in standards and services.

In about a years time I collect my pension from the Royal Navy, few years after that my OAP from the UK Government, a couple after that my pension from the Company I now work for and shortly after that my own personal pension kicks in. As I said Folkiedave I paid only what I had to and I never had any cause for complaint with regard to services and advice rendered by my accountant. There's absolutely nothing stopping anybody from doing the same.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 05:46 AM

Since my aforementioned friends sold up and went to live in France due to an excess of Tony Blair, the husband has been diagnosed with Parkinson's disease. They are full of praise for the French health service, and the quick and easy access given to a specialist in Paris, followed by medication which seems to be controlling his decline, and the associated tremors.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 05:34 AM

Yes paid tax in the UK for years, Folkiedave, in all probability a damn sight more than you. I also used the services of an accountant to make sure that I paid only what I had to.

In that case you clearly paid (as you say) a lot of tax.

But millionaires like the Vestey's didn't pay any at all and their scheme was only closed down in 1991. Millionaires like Philip Green don't pay any tax at all.

So I can't understand why you paid any tax - let alone a damn sight more than me, unless you really wanted to support the low-paid and the benefit claimants out of the goodness of your heart. On the other hand, perhaps you needed a better accountant.

Tell me why you paid any tax Teribus - these schemes are available to all - or were they not available to you for some reason, or was your accountant not up to speed?

"Tax avoidance is the legal utilization of the tax regime to one's own advantage, in order to reduce the amount of tax that is payable by means that are within the law. By contrast tax evasion is the general term for efforts by individuals, firms, trusts, and other entities to evade taxes by illegal means."

There you are you see - you can look things up when you want to. Now off you go and find out how Dewhirst's only paid £10.00 tax on profits of £2.3 million in 1978.

As for the quote of course by using the internet when you don't really understand what you are talking about, you only get half the story.

You see accountants and tax solicitors spend time DEVISING SCHEMES TO AVOID TAX and then testing them out with clients. Your accountant would have told you to put money into your pension scheme (it isn't tax avoidance though it is tax efficient, since generally speaking you pay tax on the pension when it is paid out), or you can claim this or that as a legitimate business expense. Your accountant may have told you to take income in dividend payments rather than salary. A bit of a fiddle since dividends are taxed at a lower rate. But some people spend time inventing tax avoidance schemes. Sometimes these are declared illegal by the Inland Revenue.

There is one scheme devised (NB devised) which involves circular loans to generate tax losses. It was registered in Delaware USA and generated losses via a German Bank. Although it is registered in Delaware and used a German Bank it was to avoid UK tax. See what I mean about devising schemes?

The scheme came to light when a dotcom. millionaire sued them. I won't go into the details but it involved billions of dollars of loans and the millionaire sued for the money it cost him in fees - £2 million incidentally just in fees for advice - when (eventually) it was declared fraudulent. It is still going through a long and complicated procedure of appeal, three to four years later. We, those of us taxed at source, have lost squillions through this tax avoidance scheme declared by the Inland Revenue to be illegal. So we pay extra whilst the tax avoiders screw us. And then we wait for it to go through the courts.

Incidentally you haven't yet told me who you think puts the money into tax-free off-shore accounts. Have you decided yet whether it is the poor or the rich?

Finally - what makes you think I am or have been a university lecturer? I do not remember mentioning it anywhere so I am intrigued. You been using the internet again?

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 02:18 AM

Good information thas has proved true in my expereinces this summer.

Brit ex-pats go to France (if they work it is a hobby under-table) they swear by the quality of their French health care.

USers DO go to Canada

Within the states Nevada and the Dakotas are considered good places.....a brief summer trip and you are thousands richers.

There are multiple webpages explaining the processs....you DO NOT need to go to Jersey to escape.

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Sep 07 - 01:33 AM

Explained in terms as simple as possible Folkiedave if you are taxed at source you can still use ways of reducing the amount of tax you have to pay, all you have to do is claim it back. Now what is it about that, that you a former university lecturer, cannot grasp.

Yes paid tax in the UK for years, Folkiedave, in all probability a damn sight more than you. I also used the services of an accountant to make sure that I paid only what I had to. Many working in the same industry as myself, while not going to Monaco did go to live in France or elswhere abroad. In the former if you worked outside metropolitan France for more than six months of the year you did not pay state taxes, you only had to pay the local tax for the area you lived in.

As for spouting bollocks:
The definition:
"Tax avoidance is the legal utilization of the tax regime to one's own advantage, in order to reduce the amount of tax that is payable by means that are within the law. By contrast tax evasion is the general term for efforts by individuals, firms, trusts, and other entities to evade taxes by illegal means."

So what I said originally - "I can never remember which is illegal and which isn't tax avoidance I believe is legal, whereas tax evasion is not." - would appear to have been right on the button and not bollocks at all Folkiedave.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Richard Atkins
Date: 03 Sep 07 - 09:08 PM

Reading todays Telegraph.
Britons who retire early in France lose free health care.
Migrants here free health care for all ?

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 03 Sep 07 - 07:43 PM

Folkiedave, it doesn't matter a damn if tax is deducted at source or not, the same means of mitigating the amount you pay in tax is available to all.

I have tried explaining this to you twice and I am happy to try again. Words of one syllable if you like. That's probably too many syllables for you even then - but never mind I'll try.

If your income is taxed at source you have no way of avoiding tax. NO WAY. Understand that Teribus?

If your income is not taxed at source there are numerous ways of avoiding tax. NUMEROUS WAYS. Understand that Teribus?

Most low paid people are taxed at source - most rich people are not.

Since you have difficulty understanding the difference between tax avoidance and tax evasion - I can never remember which is illegal and which isn't - do you not think it is best to stop spouting bollocks about a subject of which you seem to have little understanding of even the simplest of concepts?

The Vestey's by the way have all their financial dealings done through Monaco

That'll be Monaco where all income is tax free? Tell me Teribus is your income paid via Monaco? And if not why not? After all income in Monaco is tax-free and these tax avoidance schemes apply to everyone equally, so why don't you take advantage of it?

Simple question Teribus - have you ever paid tax in the UK (since you seem to be a UK citizen) and if you have, why did you not take advantage of the fact that Monaco as a place where you could have received your income, since as you say it is available to all?

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Sep 07 - 06:00 PM

I think the distinction between tax evasion and tax avoidance should be that anything you do primarily to avoid paying tax, but wouldn't otherwise do, counts as tax evasion. (Leaving aside charity giving.)

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Sep 07 - 05:44 PM

Folkiedave, it doesn't matter a damn if tax is deducted at source or not, the same means of mitigating the amount you pay in tax is available to all.

Been a long time since I looked into it but you can have up to seventeen and a quarter per cent of your "net relevant income" (i.e your gross earned pay) tax free, but you have to put that into a pension, the money is spent, but it is spent to your longterm advantage and interest. Now having reduced your taxable income by anything up to 17% many would find that that drops their overall tax burden quite considerably, you do of course have to submit a tax return form and claim your pre-paid tax back.

I can never remember which is illegal and which isn't tax avoidance I believe is legal, whereas tax evasion is not. A good accountant will give excellent advice, his fee is automatically tax deductable and he/she can save anybody hundreds if not thousands in tax - all perfectly aboveboard and legal and available to all.

The Vestey's by the way have all their financial dealings done through Monaco, not the UK and have done so for a great number of years. It's the one big flaw when it comes to the hard-over leftists yelling tax the rich. Trudeau in Canada once put it rather well, he asked, "If you are a multi-millionare and you can live in Canada and pay 15% tax or live in the USA and pay 20%, where do you live?" The answer he got back was Canada. "OK, so we tax the rich, you're the same multi-millionaire and you can now live in Canada and pay 25% tax or live in the USA and pay 20% where do you live?" The answer he got back was the USA. "So by taxing the rich as the left advocates, those with the money you want to tax move and although you've increased the rate of tax your income goes down because you end up collecting less."

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: GUEST,Hotspur
Date: 03 Sep 07 - 08:22 AM

My father has just been denied medication for his cancer due to the high cost of the drug. His G.P. told him our local health authority simply hasn't the money to pay for it. We lost our local hospital accident and emergency department last year due to cutbacks in the budget.

Most of the clothing manufacturers in this area have closed down due to cheap foreign imports. Unemployment figures in the area are at the same level they were in 1978.


Our government gave several million pounds of tax payers money to the "under developed" countries who are producing the cheaper imported clothing which closed down our industry.

The war in Iraq has already cost several billion pounds, on Friday the UK government gave an undertaking to provide 700 million pounds to a regeneration programme over the next two years in Afghanistan.


You ask why are people opting to leave the UK ?

Maybe it's because many like myself feel like second class citizens under a government that should realise charity should begin at home.