BS: Why are they leaving the UK?

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 03 Sep 07 - 04:47 AM

Now just to hammer logic a bit if a tax loophole exists it exists for the rich and poor alike - True?

What a naive and simplistic view of life you have Teribus.

As carefully explained to you (but clearly not carefully enough) they are not available to rich and poor alike. So the answer to that is - not true.

Let me try and get that through to you again in the hopes that this time around you understand it.

If you are taxed at source by your employer as the lower paid tend to be, then you are unable to avoid tax. The rich almost invariably have income that is not taxed at source and so they can avoid tax. Geddit?

As far the Vestey Empire is concerned - it was a British company whose profits were remitted to the UK. Had the profits stayed in Argentina they may have been taxed on them - but they didn't, they sent them back here because they weren't paying any tax here - remember?

The only advantage the Argentinians got from it was paid (and taxed probably) employment. The ships were flagged UK - Liverpool as I remember. They didn't have to flag them in low tax, low safety countries - they weren't paying tax in the UK - remember?

They spent some of their untaxed profits on a £15 million pile called Stowell Park in Gloucestershire. Do you think they did that so they didn't live in the UK? Do you believe people who live in the UK should pay tax in the UK on their income? And if not would you tell me how I can avoid doing it?

Where money is made in most irrelevant in most tax regimes. Rich people just declare they live in another country - where the tax regime is lowest - like Philip Green and a host of other city financiers do - they live in Monaco. Again that option is not available to the low-paid. But you clearly think it is, since you believe tax aviodance is something both the rich and poor can do!!

It isn't a case of failing to collect tax that is due - it is clever accountants who spend their life dreaming up schemes for the rich to avoid tax.

As for the source of my quote I am fed up of doing your research for you - go seek it out yourself. You might learn something to avoid the nonsense you spout whilst doing so.

As for posting crap do you sincerely believe that the rich don't spend time and money trying to avoid tax via routes not available to the low-paid? So who do you think puts the billions into off-shore accounts? The low-paid?

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Stu
Date: 03 Sep 07 - 04:45 AM

"OK Stig, now how would you regard it if others all of a sudden in their own "campaign of civil disobedience" decided which taxes they would pay and which taxes they would not - would you, by your own previously set precedent support them at the cost of your own dimished services, or would you condemn them as parasites.

The unbound hypocracy (sic) of the left never ceases to amaze me."

As stated above they do - we all know many of the rich are tax-dodgers and don't pay their fair share to society (benefit fraud - despicable though it is - is not what we are talking about here). They are of course happy to receive the benefits of the society they make so much money out of.

But you're getting confused Teribus, and you need to understand intent is an important factor here. It was never my intention to defraud or decide not to pay the poll tax , I knew eventually I would have to. My intent was to register my objection to an unjust tax which favoured rich people in big houses, and to make collection of that tax as difficult as possible for the government.

The wealthy that take advantages of loopholes not available to those less well off deliberately intend to withold money for their own personal game and to increase the tax burden on the rest of us - including you. Their motivation is completely different. The fact these loopholes are left in place by a so-called socialist government is pretty galling, but we all know that most of our politicians are arse-licking the wealthy - it's one of the reasons politics has become so despised by the public.

As I have said, I own my own small business and I pay large amounts of tax, especially when buying new equipment. I don't dodge my tax burden because as a member of the loony left (cheers - one of the best compliments you could have given me) I actually believe I have a responsibility to society to pay my share when I earn it.

The rancorous nature and corrupt moral integrity of the right wing never cease to amaze me.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 09:53 PM

We all seem to be in aggreement on this thread...it is ALL about TAXES

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

It will be a lovely day when we have a view of prince Herbert shovelling the streets before the common man.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Teribus
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 09:01 PM

OK for a start you pay what you have to pay. Now if everybody did exactly that and the thousands of sterling working class souls did not defraud the benefits sytems all would be well. Now all you valiant left-wingers out there, if you would just acknowledge that all would be well. Unfortunately you don't you will always find ample excuses for one and find only utter condemnation for the other.

Now let's get this straight, the Vestey family's chain of butcher shops "paid £10.00 (yes that is ten pounds) on profits of £2.3 million in 1978." Sorry Folkiedave I don't believe you - best you come up with some very hard evidence to support your statement.

Now just to hammer logic a bit if a tax loophole exists it exists for the rich and poor alike - True? It either exists in law or it does not, and as such is available to the rich and poor alike.

To examine some of your other statements:

"The Vestey Family who owned a huge slice of Britain's meat industry from the farms and processing plants in Argentina"

If it is located in Agentina, it is not really "Britain's" meat industry is it Folkiedave? And that being the case why should it be subject to British tax? Please explain? You obviously seem to think that it should. It would be interesting to hear your views on this because it doesn't and you damn well know that it doesn't.

"through their refrigerated ships that brought the meat to Britain"

Now Folkiedave these ships, are they owned by the Vestey family? Are they flagged under the "Red Ensign"? If the answer to either question Folkiedave is No then the profits made are not liable to UK Tax - True?

Now let's see
"Their chain of butchers's shops paid £10.00 (yes that is ten pounds) on profits of £2.3 million in 1978."

We are talking almost thirty years ago, during the term of a properly constituted Labour Government as recognised as being such by the looney-left i.e yourself, Stigweard and Backwoodsman. Now this £2.3 million, was that turn-over? pre-tax profit? or post tax profit? From your post it would seem to indicate pre-tax profit, at a time when corporation tax stood at what level? 50%? And under the watchful eye of a Labour government they paid only £10? Now if that were the case, and I don't believe it for one second, who exactly is at fault here Folkiedave, the Vestey Family for using the legal means at their disposal or the Labour Government for failing to collect whatever tax is due. In 1978 compare what Tax should have been collected against what actually was and I believe that you will find that the Vesteys were not those who defrauded the British Exchequer the most.

Hey Folkiedave start dealing with those troublesome facts, stop peddling the usual left-wing propaganda. I remember when you trotted out the so called fact that Rumsfeld went to Baghdad to sell arms and I proved quirte conclusively that he did not. Now if I explode this latest left wing myth of yours you will:

1) Have the honesty to admit it

2) Refrain from posting such complete and utter crap on this forum ever again.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 10:42 AM

That's the Vestey brothers made money stealing land - not Sir Philip Green.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 10:38 AM

Folkiedave in your analogy you forget to mention that in addition to the Poll Tax the millionaire you speak of would also pay a damn sight more in income tax than the low paid worker. You also omit the fact that what Poll Tax went towards was probably of far greater benefit to the low paid worker than ever it was to the millionaire.

That is probably the most breathtaking piece of unbridled nonsense I have read in a long time.

As a percentage of income most millionaires pay less tax than the low paid worker. Let me quote an example or two. The Vestey Family who owned a huge slice of Britain's meat industry from the farms and processing plants in Argentina - through their refrigerated ships that brought the meat to Britain through to the butcher's shops that sold the meat NEVER PAID A PENNY in income tax until 1991 - through exploitation of tax loopholes not available to low-paid workers whose income is taxed at source. Their chain of butchers's shops paid £10.00 (yes that is ten pounds) on profits of £2.3 million in 1978.

One of the richest people in the UK is Sir Philp Green. The BBC's Money Programme calculated that Green and his family had 'saved themselves' £285m from their £1.2bn salary by living for a part of the year in Monaco, whose residents don't pay income tax.

They also made money by stealing land from Australian aborigines but that's another story.

Now tell me how a low-paid worker can avoid tax like that? I don't know of any Teribus but then I don't live in the cloud-cuckoo land that you do.

All local income tax mainly goes to paying wages, salaries of teachers and other local government workers. As for benefiting the low paid - in fact the money local government spends on for example cultural activities is mainly enjoyed by high income families - the people who can afford to go to heavily subsidised classical music concerts, local theatres and the like.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 09:55 AM

"Having said that the ballance of probabillity is that he does pay more."

Probably, but it's usually proportionately less than your average Joe. That's what gives me the shits.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: folk1e
Date: 02 Sep 07 - 07:54 AM

I'll second that one Little Hawk!
Just because someone is a millionaire does NOT mean they pay more tax .... they should do, but we have a system where the "rich" can afford accountants who know the tax loopholes. Having said that the ballance of probabillity is that he does pay more.
It's my fence and I'll sit on it if I want to!

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Sep 07 - 07:58 PM

teribus - "The unbound hypocracy of the left never ceases to amaze me."

Yes, well, it is the habit of people on both the Left and the Right to be constantly amazed at the others' hypocrisy, while of course completely unaware of their own. ;-) Hypocrisy has never been confined to only one side of any great political divide, and it probably never shall be.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: vectis
Date: 01 Sep 07 - 06:36 PM

My youngest has just gone to the antipodes. Fed up to the back teeth with being p####d about by the NHS he has taken his highly specialised skills elsewhere.
Now he has a decent wage, far less petty regulation and interference, better prospects of advancement and a much better lifestyle for an outdoor activities & extreme sports lover.
His father and I are thinking of joining him for the same reasons (except I'm in education rather than health).

Over taxation, lack of real opportunity, over regulation, the strenuous application of silly rules and regulations, paperwork: paperwork: paperwork, crime and the erosion of ancient freedoms all make this country less and less desireable.
I would sooooo miss the folk though...

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Sep 07 - 06:21 PM

"During the campaign of civil disobedience I and several people I know refused to pay the poll tax." - Stigweard

OK Stig, now how would you regard it if others all of a sudden in their own "campaign of civil disobedience" decided which taxes they would pay and which taxes they would not - would you, by your own previously set precedent support them at the cost of your own dimished services, or would you condemn them as parasites.

The unbound hypocracy of the left never ceases to amaze me.

Folkiedave in your analogy you forget to mention that in addition to the Poll Tax the millionaire you speak of would also pay a damn sight more in income tax than the low paid worker. You also omit the fact that what Poll Tax went towards was probably of far greater benefit to the low paid worker than ever it was to the millionaire.

The tenets of the left:

It is always somebody else's fault.

Somebody else should always pay.

Unfortunately real life is not like that, learn to live with that fact and get on with it.

Emigration to Australia trebled in the last four years, I'm not surprised, but it won't be the likes of Sigweard, Backwoodsman or Folkiedave that have gone. There is no soft option in uprooting yourself and transplanting yourself and your future in a foreign land - you've got to work for whatever you wish for, nobody is going to hand it to you on a platter - a concept the likes of Stigweard, Folkiedave and Backwoodsman just cannot seem to grasp, they want some rich "bastard" to come along and provide it for them.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 01 Sep 07 - 12:20 PM

Immigration from the UK to Australia has trebled in the last 4 years I just heard on radio 4.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 01 Sep 07 - 06:12 AM

State funding of political parties would remove the need to lick rich arses in order to get re-elected. Maybe if that happened then we would see courageous rather then cowardly politics.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Stu
Date: 01 Sep 07 - 05:43 AM

"Poll and Council Taxes are regressive and inequitable. Local taxes should be collected by a local income tax. The more you have, the more you pay."

This would work provided the politicians of every side had the balls to actually make their rich supporters pay - this is the real fly in the ointment.

During the campaign of civil disobedience I and several people I know refused to pay the poll tax. I had hours of fun arguing and hassling the local council's financial department as I avoided being sent to court (successfully as it turned out).

However, one of the lads I knew who was a student with a part-time job had been told he had to pay (even though he should have been exempt) was sent to court and had decided to defend himself. He wrote an excellent statment to read out in court, swotted up on the procedures to make sure he was able to speak to the court and off he went. When we saw him in the pub later, he was crestfallen. He had been told, contrary to law he wouldn't be given his allotted time to speak and his case was essentially decided before he even set foot in the courthouse. We all knew we'd have to pay - the proles always do - but at least we thought we could make our point peacefully before the powers that be.

Interestingly enough, I knew the JP who tried this chap - he worked for a large company nearby and he was a client of the firm where I worked, a well-off businessman. I'd had business dealings with him and asked him about the case - why weren't the courts hearing the cases fairly? is't this a travesty of justice if a citizen couldn't defend himself in a court of law? His reply was that he couldn't give a shit about anyone who came in front of him in a poll tax case, he couldn't care less about their rights in the courthouse and if they came before him they would be convicted regardless. I later discovered the same JP was also producing hard-core pornography locally - hiring the models, going to the shoots, getting the printing done - the works.

Sordid little people, enforcing the vicious policies of politicians who held a large proportion of the people in this country in utter contempt simply because they didn't have enough money - this is the truth of the poll tax, and the best thing to come out of the whole sorry mess was the riots, which certainly put a rocket up the arse of Thatcher and her cronies.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 01 Sep 07 - 04:51 AM

The anomaly of the Poll Tax was that a millionaire paid the same as a low paid worker. If you believe that people should pay taxes according to their income then the Poll Tax was grossly unfair.

The fact is that a tax on property is the one tax the rich cannot avoid - though its impact upon them is limited.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Sep 07 - 04:18 AM

"It would certainly prevent anomalies like mine where 2 people on limited incomes [pension/benefits] pay the same amount of council tax as the people down the road a wee bit who have 3 wage earners in their house." - Giok

"There will always be anomalies like that John. But you make the assumption that people paid the poll tax. Large numbers of people avoided it." - Folkiedave

With an ever aging population, Folkiedave, it was amazing how many times such "anomalies" came into play. For the rest the same applies to Council Tax, the same would apply to "Local Income tax".

On energy the sooner the UK bites the bullet and goes nuclear, the same way as France, we are always going to be on a hiding to nothing

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: folk1e
Date: 31 Aug 07 - 12:40 PM

Most people would agree that those who have most should pay most! (in tax terms)
As long as that does not include them.
We then spend forever arguing the toss over which system is "best" whilst the normal guy in the street gets shafted a bit more!
I bet you could apply the above to most 1st world countries.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 31 Aug 07 - 11:02 AM

I agree that local income tax would be a good idea BUT as you correctly say the rich avoid most taxes - so that would be just another one.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Strollin' Johnny
Date: 31 Aug 07 - 08:07 AM

Poll and Council Taxes are regressive and inequitable. Local taxes should be collected by a local income tax. The more you have, the more you pay.

But Teribus and his rich mates wouldn't like that, because they'd have to pay more than the poor. Unless they could find a way of wriggling out of paying their fair whack, the way they do with most other taxes.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 31 Aug 07 - 05:41 AM

There will always be anomalies like that John. But you make the assumption that people paid the poll tax. Large numbers of people avoided it.

Mine poll tax was mega complicated for reasons I will not bore you with now - I paid no poll tax (legally) for over a year. Oh that I could do the same now - and I am in a high rate house and on a pension though currently my wife works.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 31 Aug 07 - 04:58 AM

It would certainly prevent anomalies like mine where 2 people on limited incomes [pension/benefits] pay the same amount of council tax as the people down the road a wee bit who have 3 wage earners in their house.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 31 Aug 07 - 04:54 AM

Tell us how much per day it cost the British Tax payer to keep those "Nationalised Industries" (White Elephants) running.

What an interesting view of society you have Teribus.

You seem to imagine we no longer subsidise industry.

We do of course - if only through tax relief to private equity firms and things like the export credit guarantee department, massive subsidies to farming etc etc. We subsidise the arms industries so that when those we have supplied with arms default, the arms manufacturers don't suffer.

We massively subsidise private industry through PPP partnerships.

Here in South Yorkshire we used to have a heavily subsidised public transport system and the lowest fares in the UK. Now after the wonderful years of Thatcherism and her cronies like Blair we still have a heavily subsidised transport system and we have some of the highest fares in Britain. Thanks private enterprise. We cannot buy a ticket that covers all buses and all trains and all trams. I can do this in Spain, France, Hungary and a load of other countries and American states and it works fine. Why not Sheffield? 'Cos those wonderful private firms don't allow it.

We destroy our youth clubs and social activities for people and then wonder why we have chaos on the streets.

We destroyed our apprenticeship system and then wonder why we have Polish plumbers.

As far as coal is concerned we produced the cheapest deep-mined coal in the world and the industry was mega-efficient. We now import gas from Russia, tell us Teribus what will you do if they decide to cut it off like they did to the Ukraine? Open up the coal mines again? Invade Russia?

The Poll Tax brought Thatcher down because it was an inefficient way of collecting local taxes, politician after politician (including those on her own side) told Thatcher it would be and they were proved right. I don't know if you ever noticed but loads of people didn't pay it. No local taxes are fair but a property tax is the one tax the rich can never avoid. The thing that is wrong with it is that it has a ceiling.

The days of trade unions dictating to government are over - shame they have been replaced by accountants and financiers who seem to spend most of their life avoiding tax.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Stu
Date: 31 Aug 07 - 03:14 AM

"Oh, and, oddly enough, if the country had gone for Poll Tax you'd have a far fairer local tax system in place now than the present Council Tax,"

That would have been odd.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Stu
Date: 31 Aug 07 - 03:11 AM

" conquering the rest of the wretched island including all of Scotland as well as neighbouring Ireland"

Typical imperialst Yank answer to everything - invade and occupy ; )

It all started going down hill when the Romans arrived. First they put all our Druids to the sword, raped the daughters of our chieftans and finally pissed off and let the Saxon hordes in. Country has never been the same since.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Aug 07 - 08:10 PM

I have completely resolved Great Britain's chronic social problems vicariously in the game "Rome - Barbarian Invasion" by moving north from the Roman holdings in Londinium, conquering the rest of the wretched island including all of Scotland as well as neighbouring Ireland, and putting ruthlessly to fire and sword any of the local people who objected to the gift of enlightened Roman rule.

If only it was that easy now... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Aug 07 - 07:26 PM

Stigweard, Folkiedave, Backwoodsman, tell us all how great it was back in the 1970's - the three day week, the "social" contract, the power cuts, the backlog of people waiting to be buried, hospital porters deciding whether or not your complaint warranted admittance to hospital, the UK having to go cap in hand to the IMF - If you don't remember it I certainly do.

Tell us how much per day it cost the British Tax payer to keep those "Nationalised Industries" (White Elephants) running. But of course that was what you on the left call "Government Money" wasn't it. Tell us how much UK produced coal and steel cost per tonne, then explain how using it could keep British industry competitive. Sure initially there was high unemployment but that disappeared long ago, UK led Europe in terms of foreign investment, low inflation and low unemployment rates. Oh, and, oddly enough, if the country had gone for Poll Tax you'd have a far fairer local tax system in place now than the present Council Tax, its a pity that the political parties in the UK at the moment haven't the guts to admit it.

No the days of Trade Unions dictating to the elected Government of the UK are over, thank goodness.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: folk1e
Date: 30 Aug 07 - 06:54 PM

The emphasis is on the word "Leaving"

There are more coming than going! Perhaps there is a reason?

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Stu
Date: 30 Aug 07 - 10:28 AM

"Bottom line for ALL of them.....same reason we colonists broke from our mother tongue's teat........TAXES!!!"

Well let's hope when they're all dribbling down their chins and pissing in their pants they are going to their local hospital in their new homeland and not come back here expecting free health care after dodging their tax burden . . .

. . . which whilst is too high is still something we have tro pay for our services. Sodding off abroad is OK if you're rich but for those of us who don't have a choice it's a pretty rotten thing to do. The fact Labour has made tax-dodging for the rich and big business one of their primary policies to attract these people and companies to the UK is one of the more cynical manoeuvers for a party that continues to call itself Socialist.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 30 Aug 07 - 09:30 AM

The question was 'Who's leaving', not how many matey.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Rapparee
Date: 29 Aug 07 - 10:08 PM

I offer these thoughts about Linda Kelly's first posting here:

...the consequences of doing wrong -that you will not be eligible for (dependant on severity of their crime) a passport, state benefits, state healthcare or social services-that if you ostracise yourself from socety -society will do the same to you-and that is a lesson everyone should be taught from their first day in school.

Quite so, and I agree. But when you outlaw people -- which is effectively what is being proposed -- they will simply take what they want because nothing more can or will be done to them.

Ultimately, the concepts of right and wrong have to be instilled in the home and reinforced in the schools -- and right done not through fear of punishment, but simply because its right.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 29 Aug 07 - 09:49 PM

It was my exquisite pleasure to dine and drink with a handfull of BRIT Ex-Pats this summer, in places obviously outside the UK.

Bottom line for ALL of them.....same reason we colonists broke from our mother tongue's teat........TAXES!!!

Sincerely,
Gargoyle

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: folk1e
Date: 29 Aug 07 - 09:06 PM

According to your own figures "Giork" there are more people comming than going ...... so for the third time WHO is leaving? And does it matter?

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 29 Aug 07 - 03:35 PM

New labour licked the arse of big business and sold them peerages to raise the cash to get them out of the thrall of the trade unions, who already cost one labour government an election. Their being so closely identified with people like Arthur Scargill was costing them votes.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Folkiedave
Date: 29 Aug 07 - 03:28 PM

Now that sums up the attitude prevalent in most 1970's Trade Unions - The same trade unions who attempted to hold the country to ransome and dictate to the duly elected parliament of the day.

Whereas that could never happen nowadays could it?

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Aug 07 - 09:53 AM

Wise words Stig.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Stu
Date: 29 Aug 07 - 04:42 AM

"If you are thick enough to believe that one person invented and promoted and was responsible for "unbridled greed" in our fellow human beings then more fool you"

Eh? Who said it was one person Teribus? No where do I see a suggestion Thatcher is responsible for all the greed in our fellow human beings.

"Likewise the policies were continued and adopted by some of her most severe detractors because they work"

Well, it depends who you are doesn't it? it may have worked for you Mr.T but there are plenty of people who it didn't work for then and it still doesn't work for now. The continuation of the monetarist policies instigated by Thatcher is not an indication of how successful they are, but how weak and idealogically corrupt the watered-down socialist wonks of New Labour were and are - in thrall to the capitialist con and effectively abandoning their original supporters who voted them in on a platform of social equality and justice.

"but then that is what a real "leader" is supposed to do - provide leadership if even if the pill is bitter to swallow"

If you're thick enough to believe that, then more fool you.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 Aug 07 - 02:43 PM

Who is leaving
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: folk1e
Date: 28 Aug 07 - 01:18 PM

I asked before, and I'll ask again ....... WHO is leaving?
If some people are coming here (because they can) it says two things
1 Some people want to come and can't!
2 Those who can, and do, do so for a reason.

I wonder what that is? Maybe it is better "here" than "there"?

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Aug 07 - 10:04 AM

"unbridled greed and total disregard for the good of the people as a whole."

Now that sums up the attitude prevalent in most 1970's Trade Unions - The same trade unions who attempted to hold the country to ransome and dictate to the duly elected parliament of the day. Those who disagree can regale us all about how idyllic things were in the decade before Margaret Thatcher won the 1979 General Election.

If you are thick enough to believe that one person invented and promoted and was responsible for "unbridled greed" in our fellow human beings then more fool you. Likewise the policies were continued and adopted by some of her most severe detractors because they work, they were necessary, they were definitely unpopular, but then that is what a real "leader" is supposed to do - provide leadership if even if the pill is bitter to swallow.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Stu
Date: 28 Aug 07 - 09:56 AM

Although you can't blame Titanic for the iceberg, it would have been nice to have someone at the helm who wasn't intent on steering towards the scene of the accident . . .

The tax situation is ludicrous though I agree. It beggars belief what has happened in this country in the past decade. In fact, sod it - I'm going to go out and smash some phone boxes in frustration with the hoodies . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Aug 07 - 09:17 AM

I don't attribute all of todays ills to Maggie and The Forty Thieves directly Giok. If you read me again, I'm saying that she and her foul cronies set the scene, and encouraged (praised even), the worst attributes of human nature - unbridled greed and total disregard for the good of the people as a whole.

And the current Tory-In-Labour's-Clothing crowd have done very little to right that scenario as far as I can see.

That's me done. Still friends!
S:0)

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 Aug 07 - 07:54 AM

Well we're all equally depressed about the state of the UK that's for sure, just we don't all attribute it to a single cause ;)
Who would have thought that under a Socialist [sic] government the city would be handing out bonus payments in excess of a million pounds to to traders in futures etc. That the top rate of tax remains the same no matter how mush over the baseline you earn, and that indirect taxation which soaks rich and poor alike would still be the norm. Now that is something I blame Thatcher's government for, the myth that indirect taxation was the way to win votes, and that more than ANYTHING else is the cause of social inequality today. Before you all shout 'He's agreeing with us' remember this. It wasn't her who dreamed the idea of indirect taxation up, it's just that she was at the helm at the time, but you can't blame the Titanic for the iceberg.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 28 Aug 07 - 07:38 AM

Thank you Stigweard, you echo my beliefs. Glad I'm not alone! :-) :-)
Giok - we can't agree but that's OK, I respect your views and your right to hold them.
Cheers M'Dears.
S:0)

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Stu
Date: 28 Aug 07 - 07:18 AM

"and saves people having to think intelligently about why this country is in the state it is"

If it makes me a thickie because I blame Thatcher et al for planting the seeds of a fair amount of discontent and social problems then so be it, but that still doesn't alter the fact we are now reaping the benefits of the aggressive monetarist policies of the 70s, 80s and 90s, and the trickle down effect is finally trickling upward and the middle classes are feeling the bite.

The fact the current goverment has taken this socially divisive dogma and carried it on to the extent they have is deeply depressing - I am a small business owner and the Labour party have made my very existence precarious, do me no favours with the massive amount of tax I pay but they are only continuing where Thatcher led when she introduced monetarianism as a political ideology.

It would be a buffoon who soley blamed Thatch for the ills plaguing modern society, but at least acknowledge the rough waters we are now sailing were due to a sea change she instigated thirty years ago.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 Aug 07 - 06:54 AM

What destroyed our fishing industry, what destroyed our steel industry, what enforced the rules on water treatment to the extent that it was cheaper to sell the water companies to private enterprise than to modernise the system to meet EEC regulations? What made us sever our favourable trade agreements with NZ and other old trading partners because they were outside the EEC, thus pushing up the price of food?
Is it because of Maggie that our water tastes like swimming bath effluent, or our lamb is more expensive? Of course it wasn't, and it's all very well to use her to demonise her, it's a convenient peg, and saves people having to think intelligently about why this country is in the state it is.
How many houses has banning fox hunting built, and how many old age pensioners are unafraid to walk the street since the introduction of ASBO's? This government is just as bad as any of it's predecessors in modern times.
Who abolished corporation tax, who made it possible for entrepreneurs to buy up companies on borrowed cash, asset strip them, and pay only 10% tax or less for the privilege?
As I said, I am no Maggie Thatcher supporter, but I am in favour of equality and blame sharing, not scapegoating, and blaming people for things that happened long after they had gone. It's like blaming the measles you had as a child for the bronchitis you have as a smoking adult!
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: mouldy
Date: 28 Aug 07 - 06:29 AM

When my husband was still alive, he spent most of his time working overseas, largely in the former USSR, but also at one time in China. Each time he returned, he complained more and more about the deterioration he perceived of the country in general, the cost of living, and the nanny state. He said that when/if he retired, there would be no way he would live here permanently. He didn't come up with an alternative (but we thought we still had plenty of time left to work on that one)!

In 4 weeks time, our son emigrates to NZ, with no job to go to, but with permanent residency granted to him and his fiancee. He is currently trying to get a job, but has said he will clean toilets if he has to. One of his main reasons for going is the lack of opportunity they have to buy a home here. He has been in work since he left university 6 years ago, and has been living with his fiancee for 2 years in a modern rented flat. Even combining their incomes, they can barely afford to buy, except in the more run-down areas of Cardiff (where they live). He works for the Environment Agency, and wages are not that high, with laughable annual raises at his level, compared with the private sector.
If they settle, I may also go there, and my other kids are also showing interest. My older daughter has been told that, as a pharmacist, once she has taken the necessary registration exam, she could be out there in 3 months. She hasn't made a decision yet, but she keeps coming round to it from time to time in her conversation.

Andrea


Andrea

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Stu
Date: 28 Aug 07 - 05:51 AM

. . . and furthermore I agree with Backwoodsman about Thatcher - spot on.

"The unions would have had accept some restrictions of their power at some point or another, but had Arthur Scargill not chosen to start a fight he could never have won, she would not have succeeded to the extent she did in emasculating the unions."

I'm not so sure Giok. Thatcher had the unions in her sights from day one. She won her majority off the back of the binmen's strike and from the outset started legislating against the unions. Remember this:

"We had to fight the enemy without in the Falklands. We always have to be aware of the enemy within, which is much more difficult to fight and more dangerous to liberty."

Of course, what no-one knew at the time was Thatcher fully intended to destroy the unions powerbase by destroying the industries they represented. Her decimation of our various heavy industries and the manufacturing base has effects that are still felt today - the fact the so-called Socialist goverment still adheres to monetarist dogma is testament to the effect this woman has had on British politics.

The continuing nationalisation of state-owned industries and assets in the 80s and 90s created a country where the people feel disenfranchised from the infrastructure that supports them - how many of our utilities companies are owned by British firms (when I go walking in the hills near my home, the land I walk on that was once owned by me as part of the collective is now owned by a French company) ?

I could bang on for hours about how the policies of Thatcher and her cohorts have undermined the neation's self belief and eroded the core fabric of our society - but the evidence is all around us so there's no point. She deserves her demonisation for the simple reason she acted without compassion and regard for the long-term consequences of her actions (a political trait not confined to her, granted) in matters that fundamentally changed the very nature of how we interact with society and each other as individuals - and our feral youth is just another consequence of disregarding the fact people need a strong, cohesive society in order to live together in tolerance and peace.

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: Stu
Date: 28 Aug 07 - 05:15 AM

"Crime is low here and naturaly the money goes further. In general I began to find the UK a bit of a depressing place. Overtaxed, expensive and with a nanny state attitude. Thats not to say you can do what you like here in the workers paradise.

Er, bit of an understatement that last bit. +Comparing living in Britain to China?

Tried looking up 'Tiananmen Square' from your Chinese version of Google? Want to carry a picture of the HH Dalai Lama? Want to say what you think? No way!

I bet you're glad you're off to Australia - at least you'll be able to call the Chinese Government a bunch of morally and politically corrupt dictators who torture their own people and virtually enslave many others whilst maintaining an illegal occupation of a sovereign nation, and oppressing it's people by relocation of Han Chinese and systematic persecution of it's religious and political leaders including the kidnap and incarceration of it's second most important leader The Panchen Lama.

But sorry, you can't can you?

We're all guilty of supporting China to a greater and lesser degree, and I too find Britain depressing sometimes, but thank the maker it isn't like China (yet - we'll all be speaking Mandarin in fifty years time).

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 28 Aug 07 - 04:56 AM

Because not many other countries allow them such unfettered access I guess. There is also the fact that nobody can die of starvation in the UK, unlike some of the countries without a welfare system which they may come from.
I can't remember the exact figures, but it was something like only the UK and one other country allowed free movement of labour from the new EEC accession countries when they joined last January, [or was it the one before?] so that is the main reason that we have received such a large influx from Poland et al.
Giok

Subject: RE: BS: Why are they leaving the UK?
From: folk1e
Date: 28 Aug 07 - 04:04 AM

If it is such a bad place....... why do we see stories of hoards of forigners wanting to come here and take all our jobs?

Is it just me or do I note that most of the most outspoken comments come from "guests"??
If you are a guest you should conform to the common standards!