BS: What causes AIDS?

Subject: RE: BS: What causes AIDS?
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 03:38 PM

Well, as fir attacking someone who has the courage to stand up to the AMA, and Western African?AIDS PR crap, I would expect the same ol' cast of characters who are generally first to stand up and sing the company song...

I'm not saying there aren't AIDS cases in Africa but what I am saying is that it is very convient to look at a continent where lots of people are dieing of starvation and environmental issues and lay the blame on sexual behavior on that group of people. It may provide some temporary relef from the guilt and denial but it sure ain't part of the solution...

Now as fir the degrees, harpy, you even admit that those Social Work gard students weren't the sharpest knife in the drawer but since yer in "Bobert Buddies Column" I'll apologize fir the generization. BTW, my last "save the world" job was a Social Worker working in Adult Services in Richmond, Va. where for 8 years I worked primarilly with revolving door mental health folks and the elderly but I got into Social Work thru the back door using my 1st degree in Education to get a job as a GED teac her in the Richmond City Jail which got me a job in a drug rehab. program (Rubicon) which somehow qualified me to become a Social Worker. I worked with a lot of MSW's and have the utmost respect for them, not necessarily for their degreesm but fir their hearts... But enough about that... Please accept my aplogy fir the insensitive generalization about degrees....

But, being the Bobert, I reserve the right to make the same unfounded generalizations about degrees in the future and re-apologize if called to do so...

BTW, anyone wanting to pay $299 per degree, I got two of them ya' can buy. That'll be $598 + shipping and handling. I accept PayPal...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: What causes AIDS?
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 03:37 PM

And if that's not bad enough ... winner of the top Pigasus Award 2003:

Category #1, for the government official who said or did the silliest thing related to pseudoscience or the occult in the year 2003, goes to South African Minister of Health Dr. Manto Tshabala-Msimang, who claimed, and continues to claim, that treatment with "garlic, herbs, and liver" is not only most efficacious in the treatment of HIV-AIDS, tuberculosis, and other deadly diseases, but is far superior to Western medicine. She also believes, in agreement with Thabo Mbeki, President of the African National Congress and President of South Africa, that AIDS is not caused by the HIV virus. The death rate in South Africa has soared, with an estimated 5.3 million of its 45 million people (12%) now HIV-infected.

Subject: RE: BS: What causes AIDS?
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 03:32 PM

(Dr) Null's expertise on AIDS is in line with his quackery in other areas. This too from Null:

Magnetic therapy can help the body ward off such microbial invaders as viruses, bacteria, and fungi. It achieves this, in part, by increasing immune function through the oxygenation of white corpuscles, an important part of the immune system's arsenal. A magnetic field can also function like an antibiotic by lowering acid, with the result that microorganisms have a more difficult time surviving.

Sometimes, snake-oil salesmen can cost you a lot more than the $30 you blew on the Ionizer bracelet.

Subject: RE: BS: What causes AIDS?
From: Peace
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 03:20 PM

It is very dangerous to start thinking that a good diet will prevent HIV infection (and subsequently AIDS). The methods of HIV trsnsmission have been determined: exchange of body fluids (semen, blood), transfusion of contaminated blood, use of contaminated needles. There may be a corelation between a lower infection rate amongst people who eat well, but I would think that comes from a better life style occasioned by a better income occasioned by a better education. The key then would be education, not food. Thinking that AIDS can be prevented by a good diet is very foolish, and the promulgation of that type of thought is criminal. And if it isn't, it should be.

Subject: RE: BS: What causes AIDS?
From: Amos
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 02:45 PM

GEtcher facts straight, Guest. The Union Insititute is accredited, number one, and number two its PhD degree costs a damn sight more than no $299!!

A

Subject: RE: BS: What causes AIDS?
From: GUEST,Little Doofus
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 02:43 PM

Mama, I swear I ain't one of them gay boys. I swear I ain't been havin' sex no how. Sure 'nuff now without a rubber con-dome. I been to Doc Bobert and he sez I'm just malnourished.

Subject: RE: BS: What causes AIDS?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 02:21 PM

Hey Bobert,

For $299, you too can get the PhD just like the one Gary Null bought.


Null says he holds an associate degree in business administration from Mountain State College in West Virginia, a bachelor's
degree from Thomas A. Edison State College in New Jersey, and a PhD in human nutrition and public health sciences from The
Union Institute in Cincinnati, Ohio. Edison State, a "nontraditional" school with neither campus nor courses, awards accredited
bachelor's degrees based on career experience, equivalency exams, and courses taken at other schools.

The Union Institute is also accredited, but its degree requirements and standards for health-related doctoral degrees differ
greatly from those of traditional universities. Students design their own program, form and chair their own doctoral committee,
and are required to attend only an introductory colloquium and a few interdisciplinary seminars. Null's PhD committee was
composed of a "core faculty member," three "adjunct professors," two "peers," and a "second core reader." The "core faculty
member" is a well-credentialed academician whose expertise (in geologic sciences) is unrelated to Null's topic. One of the three
"adjunct professors" was Martin Feldman, MD, a "complementary" physician (and "clinical ecologist") who has pinch-hit for
Null as a radio host and helped develop some of Null's books and supplement formulations. When I asked a school official
about the background or location of the other two "adjunct professors," he replied that information was in storage and was too
difficult to obtain.

Subject: RE: BS: What causes AIDS?
From: artbrooks
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 02:13 PM

Bobert, you are generally a pretty smart guy, and I tend to agree with many of the points you make. However, I think you are way out on a limb over the swamp on this one. You may not be aware that Mr. Null (his degree is questionable, if not bogus) has been a subject of Quack Watch, which says, among other things, that Gary Null, whose book jackets bill him as "one of America's leading health and fitness advocates," is one of the nation's leading promoters of dubious treatment for serious disease.   Hull himself says, in this article, that "no one, I repeat, no one under ANY circumstances should have the HIV test. It is a fraud. A complete and total fraud. Why is it a fraud? Because there's no "gold standard." That means that it is impossible to claim that HIV has been present in all AIDS cases." This is flat out murder for those individuals who have the HIV virus and could have their lives saved with treatment.

Subject: RE: BS: What causes AIDS?
From: GUEST,harpgirl
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 01:57 PM

Bobert you have stepped on my toes with your remark about degrees. To dismiss higher education as cavalierly as you have is beyond ignorant! You must really be a dumb hillbilly and not just pretending to play one!

At any rate, although the conditions you cite in Africa are major contributors to the AIDS epidemic and all those things Ellenpolly noted which many people in Africa undoubtdly have will register a false positive AIDS tests, HIV is still transmitted the old fashion way, through behavior! Beliefs, cultural norms, and criminal behavior account for much of the transmission in Africa which occurs predominantly in the heterosexual population.

I did a small research study (upon graduating with a doctorate in Social Work on protective behaviors in graduate students in the Social Work population in 1989. It is widely cited in the literature on AIDS protective behaviors and paved the way for AIDs curriculum in Social Work schools across the nation. In my study, nearly 60% of the subjects (admittedly a very small population of 74) had false information, poor information, or were not practicing safe sex! If social work graduate students were that ignorant in 1989, how do you think Africans have faired over the years in instituting protective behaviors?

Shame on you Bobert, for not touting behavioral change as a primary necessity in the fight against HIV/AIDS infection. And shame on you for not noting that the oppression of women is a primary reason that AIDS is so rampant in Africa.

love, harpy

Subject: RE: BS: What causes AIDS?
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 01:41 PM

Fact is that according to AMA model we Weesterners find it *convient* to blame 2.4 million African deaths on AIDS and we continue to use AIDS at the poster problem of a much larger problem of poverty and lack of resorces for the African people... I am saying "convient" because this, in some way, lets alot of folks off the hook who are more concerned about consuming *more than their fair share* of the earth's resources. AIDS is very handy in that respect because rather than look towaeds one's self as part of either the problem or solution one can blame the victim.

Thank you, Ellenpoly, fir the quick research. These are the kinds of things that (Dr.) Gary Null talks about.

I wish I knew how to blue clicky things 'cause this ol' hillbilly ain't the only person that is challenging the AMA/Western-Corportate/Harari model. The media sure ain't gonna report it, that's fir danged/corporate sure...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: What causes AIDS?
From: Jeri
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 01:29 PM

"...will test positive for the AIDS viris, though not actually infected"

Which test comes up false positive? Do you have a link to an article?

The rapid screening tests sometimes DO show false positives, and should be confirmed with repeated tests, either Western blot (WB) or immunofluorescent assay (IFA). I don't know if malnutrition can lead to a false positive, but I DO know it's the virus that causes AIDS. Malnutrition will certainly help the virus do its dirty work, along with a lack of treatment. The primary factor in an AIDS death, however, is infection with HIV.

There's a danger in people believing what they die from is malnutrition and not AIDS. People die from malnutrition, and it's something to fight, but it's a separate, (although contributory) issue. Passing off AIDS deaths as something else is like saying the dead people in Iraq got that way because they were living in the wrong place. If what you say were true, we could all eat good meals, go out and shoot some smack with our 'blood brothers', fuck like rabbits, and we'll be just fine. There's a danger in trying to tell people that unprotected promiscuous sex as a cultural norm is perfectly fine. Just ONE person who reads what you write, actually believes you, and dies, is just too much.

Unprotected promiscuous sex is just plain dangerous, and finding excuses to try to convince people "it's ok to continue that cultural practice" is a little too close to promoting genocide.

Subject: RE: BS: What causes AIDS?
From: artbrooks
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 01:25 PM

The process is very simple in any medical situation in which "false positives" are possible: (1) You do a fairly simple (and cheap) test. (2) If the person tests positive, than you do a more complicated (and more expensive) test to rule out false positives.

There are conditions and circumstances in which a second, and more accurate, test is either unavailable or impractical, but this is not the case with HIV.

Subject: RE: BS: What causes AIDS?
From: GUEST,Act Up!
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 01:25 PM

The issue I seized on in Bobert's original post is not that there may be some instances of false positives in AIDS testing. There is always follow-up testing in positive tests in order to eliminate false positives.

Rather, it was Bobert's claim that Professor Harari's statement, to the effect that more Africans die of AIDS every day than died in the events of 9/11, is racist and false because of false positives induced by malnutrition. Bobert said the professor's statement was "a friggin' crock of crap," that it was "one of the largest lies being told. Make Bush's lies seem like little white lies."

However, the FACT is that Professor Harari was correct. As I pointed out, in 2002, more than 2.4 million people in sub-Sahara Africa died of AIDS. That works out to more than 6,575 people per day. Far more than the 2800 hundred who were murdered in the events of 9/11.

It is Bobert whose false information is, his words, "a friggin' crock of crap."

Subject: RE: BS: What causes AIDS?
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 01:11 PM

You might test as "uncertain", which some people might read as "positive."

Subject: RE: BS: What causes AIDS?
From: jeffp
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 01:09 PM

All tests can result in one of five results: true positive, true negative, false positive, false negative, or inconclusive. The strength of any particular test for anything is the potential for each of these results.

Now you may continue with the dispute.

Subject: RE: BS: What causes AIDS?
From: Amergin
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 01:02 PM

How do you test positive for the virus when you don't have it? AIDS testing is not like drug testing where eating the wrong foods can give you a blood test. I suppose that all the young people here in the states who have died and are dying are just malnourished. How about this spin on things....malnourishment is a symptom of aids related illnesses.

Subject: RE: BS: What causes AIDS?
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 01:02 PM

Still need to read that thread, but...on this subject...

I just found this and thought I'd post it here...from

http://www.virusmyth.net/aids/data/cjtestfp.htm



Factors Known to Cause False-Positive HIV Antibody Test Results

Anti-carbohydrate antibodies (52, 19, 13)
Naturally-occurring antibodies (5, 19)
Passive immunization: receipt of gamma globulin or immune globulin (as prophylaxis against infection which contains antibodies)(18, 26, 60, 4, 22, 42, 43, 13)
Leprosy (2, 25)
Tuberculosis (25)
Mycobacterium avium (25)
Systemic lupus erythematosus (15, 23)
Renal (kidney) failure (48, 23, 13)
Hemodialysis/renal failure (56, 16, 41, 10, 49)
Alpha interferon therapy in hemodialysis patients (54)
Flu (36)
Flu vaccination (30, 11, 3, 20, 13, 43)
Herpes simplex I (27)
Herpes simplex II (11)
Upper respiratory tract infection (cold or flu)(11)
Recent viral infection or exposure to viral vaccines (11)
Pregnancy in multiparous women (58, 53, 13, 43, 36)
Malaria (6, 12)
High levels of circulating immune complexes (6, 33)
Hypergammaglobulinemia (high levels of antibodies) (40, 33)
False positives on other tests, including RPR (rapid plasma reagent) test for syphilis (17, 48, 33, 10, 49)
Rheumatoid arthritis (36)
Hepatitis B vaccination (28, 21, 40, 43)
Tetanus vaccination (40)
Organ transplantation (1, 36)
Renal transplantation (35, 9, 48, 13, 56)
Anti-lymphocyte antibodies (56, 31)
Anti-collagen antibodies (found in gay men, haemophiliacs, Africans of both sexes and people with leprosy)(31)
Serum-positive for rheumatoid factor, antinuclear antibody (both found in rheumatoid arthritis and other autoantibodies)(14, 62, 53)
Autoimmune diseases (44, 29, 10, 40, 49, 43): Systemic lupus erythematosus, scleroderma, connective tissue disease, dermatomyositis
Acute viral infections, DNA viral infections (59, 48, 43, 53, 40, 13)
Malignant neoplasms (cancers)(40)
Alcoholic hepatitis/alcoholic liver disease (32, 48, 40,10,13, 49, 43, 53)
Primary sclerosing cholangitis (48, 53)
Hepatitis (54)
"Sticky" blood (in Africans) (38, 34, 40)
Antibodies with a high affinity for polystyrene (used in the test kits)(62, 40, 3)
Blood transfusions, multiple blood transfusions (63, 36,13, 49, 43, 41)
Multiple myeloma (10, 43, 53)
HLA antibodies (to Class I and II leukocyte antigens)(7, 46, 63, 48, 10, 13, 49, 43, 53)
Anti-smooth muscle antibody (48)
Anti-parietal cell antibody (48)
Anti-hepatitis A IgM (antibody)(48)
Anti-Hbc IgM (48)
Administration of human immunoglobulin preparations pooled before 1985 (10)
Haemophilia (10, 49)
Haematologic malignant disorders/lymphoma (43, 53, 9, 48, 13)
Primary biliary cirrhosis (43, 53, 13, 48)
Stevens-Johnson syndrome9, (48, 13)
Q-fever with associated hepatitis (61)
Heat-treated specimens (51, 57, 24, 49, 48)
Lipemic serum (blood with high levels of fat or lipids)(49)
Haemolyzed serum (blood where haemoglobin is separated from the red cells)(49)
Hyperbilirubinemia (10, 13)
Globulins produced during polyclonal gammopathies (which are seen in AIDS risk groups)(10, 13, 48)
Healthy individuals as a result of poorly-understood cross-reactions (10)
Normal human ribonucleoproteins (48,13)
Other retroviruses (8, 55, 14, 48, 13)
Anti-mitochondrial antibodies (48, 13)
Anti-nuclear antibodies (48, 13, 53)
Anti-microsomal antibodies (34)
T-cell leukocyte antigen antibodies (48, 13)
Proteins on the filter paper (13)
Epstein-Barr virus (37)
Visceral leishmaniasis (45)
Receptive anal sex (39, 64)

Subject: RE: BS: What causes AIDS?
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 12:37 PM

No, you don't get AIDS from malnutrition. But there is at least a body of eveidence that folks suffering from severe malnutrtion, bad water and poor health care, of which the vast majority of "supposed" African AIDS infected people suffer, will test positive for the AIDS viris, though not actually infected...

Which brings us around to "bumper sticker" thinking by Westerners that these folks is just bad people 'cause of their behavior when genocide thru starvation is the real story. But that doesn't fit "bumper sticker" thinking and isn't as nice a story to tell folks who have a McDonald's on every corner...

As fir degrees? Most are purdy danged usless. In most cases all they represent is an individuals tolerance to be hazed for 4, 6 or more years to prove they are "company men and women"...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: What causes AIDS?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 12:24 PM

Gary Null has never claimed he is a doctor and has never referred to himself as Dr.

However, he does have an honorary PH.D from the University of Bobert.

Subject: RE: BS: What causes AIDS?
From: Jeri
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 12:19 PM

Ellenpolly, at first I thought you were right, but then I re-read what Bobert had written...a couple of times.

He's actually criticizing the professor for not 'knowing' you can get aids from malnutrition. You don't get colds from not wearing a hat in the winter, and you don't get infected with the HIV virus from being malnourished. A person might be more susceptible to the ravages of HIV if they're malnourished, but they won't GET it.

Subject: RE: BS: What causes AIDS?
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 12:16 PM

I'm interested in that thread and plan to read it in it's entirety.

But I think I'll just let the two of you have at it here.

..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: What causes AIDS?
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 12:03 PM

Feel better, GUEST, act up...

First fir your assertion about the anti-Isreali Tirade. Saying that both Isreal and the Palestinians have a right to exist hardly puts me in some extremist camp. Perhaps you'd like to illucidate on why thinking the Palestinians have a right to exist is such a radical concept....

Second of all, you discredit (Dr.) Gary Null because of your small minded AMA paradime. A doctor is one who comforts and works to heal those who are sick. In that vien, Gary Null is more of a doctor than plenty of state certified AMA'ers who are currently "practicing" medicine, including a few I've gone to who were highly recommended...

Thirdly, have you taken the time to review (Dr.) Nulls writings? Have you taken the time to hear a (Dr.) Null lecture? Are you even aware that research models exist out of the arena of the sacred AMA? Do you have any experience with successes of alternative treatments?

It doesn't sound, from your kneejerk reaction, that you have...

Lastly, if the number of people in Africa dieing could be vastly deceased from AIDS-like symptoms with food, fresh water and better health care, rather than propogating racist PR pablum about Adircan behavior, wouldn't that make more sense? If not, why do you feel that continuimng to place blame on the genocide that is plaguing parts of Africans at the feet of those dieing? It's a much bigger story than is being told...

And lastly, Part 2: The mind is like a parachute, its usless if it isn't open...

Now go on with more of yer misinterpreting and knee-jerkin'. I mean, like, knock yerself out...

Bobert

Subject: RE: BS: What causes AIDS?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 11:59 AM

Bobert's ridiculous claims are in this thread.

Subject: RE: BS: What causes AIDS?
From: Ellenpoly
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 11:55 AM

GUEST, I think you have the wrong end of the stick here. I read what Bobert wrote and it seems he is not endorsing, but disputing these findings.

At least that's what I'm reading here.

Would you please indicate where you found this thread as I'd like to read it in context.

From what I've read on Mudcat from Bobert, I really think you might have misunderstood what he was saying...

..xx..e

Subject: RE: BS: What causes AIDS?
From: GUEST,Act Up!
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 11:36 AM

In a new post in the Middle East thread, Bobert further writes:

Probably the largest body of reseach that malnourishment, poverty, bad water etc. can lead to false positiive for HIV/AIDS (not to say one necessarily leads to another...) testing has been accumulated and published by:

Dr. Gary Null

(www.garynull.com)

First of all, Gary Null is not a doctor. He is a nutritonal supplement salesman whose AIDS theories have been completely discredited by the scientific AIDS community.

Again, please ignore the false and dangerous information being propagated by Bobert.

Subject: BS: What causes AIDS?
From: GUEST,Act Up!
Date: 19 Jul 04 - 11:23 AM

Well, what a friggin' crock of crap tirade by the good professor Harari of the Weismann Institute of Science, whatever that
is...

It is filled will screwy thinking.

Fir instance, he says more people die of AIDS in Africa every day than died on 9/11, 'er whatever he was trying to say. This makes this ol' hillbilly really mad to hear this crap. (But, Bobert, them Aficans f**k like rabbits. The'll f**k anything that moves. They're just a bunch of bone through the nose savages...)

Well, there's one of the largest lies being told. Make Bush's lies seem like little white lies. Actually, in spite of professor Harari's not-so-extensive research is that not only do most Africans **not** "f**k like rabbits, but that they test positive for AIDS because they are grossly malnourished from the abject poverty, lack of food, clean water and health care... Like does the good professor klnow that medically a malnourished individual can test positive for AIDS? Heck no, he doesn't, because he isn't too informed or enlightened...

The above passage (sic) was written by Bobert in an anti-Israeli rant in the latest Mudcat Middle East thread. Commenting on the ridiculousness of Bobert's misinformation on AIDS belongs in a thread of its own.

To begin with, the Israeli professor is absolutely correct and Bobert is absolutely wrong about the numbers of AIDS deaths in Africa every day. In 2002, more than 2.4 million people in sub-Sahara Africa died of AIDS. That works out to more than 6,575 people per day. Far more than the 2800 hundred who were murdered in the events of 9/11.

Bobert goes on to say that most Africans with AIDS have AIDS because they are malnourished. That is absolutely false.

Malnutrition is a huge problem in Africa. However, HIV infection, through exposure in the blood is the sole cause of AIDS. Malnutrion further weakens the body's immune system so that full blown AIDS will manifest itself sooner in someone who is malnourished. However, contrary to what Bobert says, no one gets AIDS from malnutrition.

Please ignore the false and dangerous information being propagated by Bobert. There is extensive information available at the AIDS in Africa website.

The AIDS in Africa website.