BS: A new political low take 2

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 29 Dec 16 - 05:00 AM

Jim, telling lies about my views on immigration is not debate.
It is what you do when you can not produce an intelligent argument.
Everything you said about me is a lie. All made up shit because making up shit is all you can do.

Dave, your three reasons to describe Farage as loathsome were all easily knocked down.
Have you any more?
Please repeat any that you think you can stand up.


It doesn't matter whether it is true or not, Keith. That is the age old excuse that simply does not wash.

Truth is not an excuse Dave.
If the accusation was true it is fair to make it.
If it was not, legal action can be taken and was promised.

Rag,
OK "professor" Can you give us just one small example to link Brendan Cox with extremism in anything he has done or said.

Nope. I said I know nothing about him or his organisation.
Farage made the claim, and he is not known for making false claims.
None of you have been able to produce one!

Stu,
They're paid to attend the EU parliament, they don't

The were elected to work against it and get us out.
They have succeeded admirably.

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: Stu
Date: 29 Dec 16 - 03:13 AM

"where they worked tirelessly"

Pish. Google "ukip mep attendance". They're paid to attend the EU parliament, they don't and are widely considered lazy and boorish. Quite right too.

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Dec 16 - 02:32 AM

"You have attacked the gravy train of the EU countless times. Well here's a chap who's well and truly on it who you choose to defend. Breathtaking double standard." - Steve Shaw

Yes Shaw and he would appear to be one of twenty who were elected to the European Parliament where they worked tirelessly to make such the "Gravy Train" ended as far as the UK goes. He's so "well and truly on it" as you put it that he has succeeded in ending it. I see no double standard at all. Their aim at the time of their election was clearly stated (Take the UK out of the EU) and they succeeded in doing that.

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Dec 16 - 06:57 PM

It's perfectly relevant to point out that he has a terrible voting record. He is in dereliction of his duties in that regard far more than almost every other MEP. Yes I will ignore that stupid question because I have never accused him of doing anything illegal and you know it. What a stupid and pointless thing to say. You have attacked the gravy train of the EU countless times. Well here's a chap who's well and truly on it who you choose to defend. Breathtaking double standard. As for finding himself outvoted, in all my adult voting life I have never lived in a constituency that returned an MP I wanted. But guess what - I still vote. It's called democracy, something I seem to remember you rattling on about quite a lot when you castigated people for not bothering to vote in the referendum.

And once and for all, stop prattling on about Kinnock as though he's the stock answer to all your EU gripes. Let me just tell you that I have no more regard or respect for the man than you do. I detest the bugger. I may have to remind you of this post every time you drearily bring up his name.

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Dec 16 - 05:12 PM

"Cliff Richards is a pedophile"
Cliff Richard,not Richards.real name Harry Webb

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Dec 16 - 04:17 PM

Still missing the point entirely Shaw.

No matter what vote Farage casts in the European Parliament he will always fid himself out voted. That being the case ne does not bother. He was sent to Brussels by electors on a ticket and representing a political party whose sole aim was to get the UK out of the EU. In that he has been remarkably successful.

You attack him because as an elected MEP he draws his salary - He should do he is entitled to it.

You attack him because he can draw on expenses and take advantage of allowances paid to every single other MEP - These are all automatic entitlements so give me one good reason why he should forego them?

In accepting these entitlements please tell us all what he is doing that is illegal. The answer to that question, as I know Shaw will ignore it, is NOTHING.

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Dec 16 - 03:57 PM

If he's "no different from the herd" then why do you eejits build him up and defend him! You told us what a great job he was doing reforming the EU from within. So tell us about his "success" then! Attack the "herd" by all means, but if he's no different attack him too!

And if anyone here has read such bollocks as this in 2016 I should like to hear of it.

Ahem:

"Shaw, please tell us what the other 745 MEPs are paid?

He doesn't vote because as a dissenting voter his vote does not count."

Err, Bill, his vote counts PRECISELY AS MUCH AS EVERY OTHER MEP'S VOTE. You OK with that now? 😂😂😂

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Dec 16 - 03:04 PM

Shaw, please tell us what the other 745 MEPs are paid?

He doesn't vote because as a dissenting voter his vote does not count.

On waste of money can you explain the monthly lift and shift of the whole caboodle from Brussels to Strasbourg, done for no other reason but to give the French a wad of cash.

He did manage to change things more so than any other MEP who has sat there - He managed to get Britain to vote to leave, by exposing the horrendous waste and inefficiency of this organisation that you would have us shackled to.

As far as politicians with their snouts firmly wedged in the trough, you need look no further than the Kinnocks - they played the EU Gravy train system like a concert grand for everything it was worth. So sorry Shaw, Nigel Farage is no different from the herd, lambast him, lambast them all.

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Dec 16 - 02:34 PM

"Christian ............... my arse."
Do you really thing that little of such an essential part of your anatomy raggy?
You need to remember Keith's Christmas message is "No room at this inn"
The Russian and Syrian forces kill as many refugees as possible and their counterparts over here do their bit by spreading hate, fear and suspicion.
They all look the same, you know, swarthy skinned and hook nosed.
You really can't trust these people - especially culturally!!
The experts have said so
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Dec 16 - 02:13 PM

From the "professor"

"To link Brendan Cox with extremism is callous and uncalled for.

Not if it was true, and "callous and uncalled for" is hardly "a new low in politics"

OK "professor" Can you give us just one small example to link Brendan Cox with extremism in anything he has done or said. Can you tell us if it was true.

Can you tell us where in any way, shape or form can he be linked to extremism, apart from the obvious fact his wife was killed by one.

PS. The callous and uncalled for relates to an accusation against a man who is still grieving the loss of his wife. I thought even you might be able to comprehend that.

Christian ............... my arse.

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Dec 16 - 02:06 PM

It doesn't matter whether it is true or not, Keith. That is the age old excuse that simply does not wash. The seed has been sown and there will be people out there who will believe that Brendan Cox is an extremist just in the same way as some will believe Cliff Richards is a pedophile. Mud sticks. It's the way misinformation works and it is the way smarmy politicians get away with smearing people.

I gave three reasons for why I believe he is loathsome earlier. The fact that you do not believe the reasons to be right does not affect my opinion in the least.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 28 Dec 16 - 01:01 PM

Christ - Is Keith still keeping foreigners out?
And Ake is still defending teh undefendables?
And Little Briton Teribus still ranting on about Europe?

Has anybody mentioned the resolution U.N. Resolution condemning Israeli Settlements (best news of the holiday season - bang goes Keith's "decent countries" defence) - or is that a pleasure we have to come?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Dec 16 - 11:55 AM

Say good night, Professor.

Move along, people, nothing to see here.

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 28 Dec 16 - 11:47 AM

Steve,
They were refugees. I don't bloody care how old they looked. They were nothing to do with the sort of EU immigration that the racist Farage continually prattles on about. The photo was inappropriately used by him to make some point or other. Try to be honest about something for a change, Keith. And you have now said three times that he is not known for making false claims. So it's true that we give the EU £350 million per week, is it? So it's true that the £350 million per week will be spent on the NHS, is it? .

If they were refugees and not economic migrants, why all men of a similar age?
And a proportion will have been heading for UK.
Farage had no involvement in the 350m claim and was critical of it, so why bring that into this discussion.
If I was wrong to say he is not known for making false claims, quote one.
"Try to be honest about something for a change, Keith"
You failed to identify any dishonesty from me, but there it is in your post.

Dave,
See above.

and I, along with many others, believe he is indeed a loathsome character.

You make that clear, but have not given any grounds for it.
What exactly has he ever said or done that is "loathsome?"

I am sure he has no interest in other peoples opinions anyway unless he can see some way of promoting himself. As he did here.

Not true. He responded to something put to him without warning live on radio.

Steve,

She opened her doors to refugees. Let's be careful, unlike Farage, to keep that entirely separate from the free movement of EU citizens.

The free movement across Europe allows refugees to reach Calais and thence UK.

Dave,
What I am saying is that I find it wrong that Farage suggested that Brendan Cox had links with ANY exremist organisation

Do you find it wrong even if true?

To link Brendan Cox with extremism is callous and uncalled for.
Not if it was true, and "callous and uncalled for" is hardly "a new low in politics!"
That is a huge and inflammatory claim.
If you had claimed "a new level of mild disapproval" no-one would have challenged you.

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 28 Dec 16 - 10:56 AM

As one would expect? You jest - we expect you to hold views that disagree with most of us and be unwilling to listen to reasonable debate. We expect you are unable and unwilling to see the hardships such bigotted individuals as Farage (and Trump) will force upon the citizens of their nations. After small single steps of progress forward, each of those individuals represents the "two steps back" we've all heard of. I hope your new world bites you in the ass so you finally understand what we've all been trying to tell you.

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: akenaton
Date: 28 Dec 16 - 10:40 AM

Oh for heavens sake don't you read what Mr T says, Mr Farage had no intention of "changing the EU from inside". Mr Farage's stated intention was to get the UK OUT of the EU.....and he succeeded brilliantly.
I don't know another politician with the balls to stand up to the whole political establishment single handedly and achieve his stated goal despite being smeared right left and centre.

I am opposed to his economic policies as one would expect, but by god I admire a man who does what he says he will do against all the odds.

That is the problem with UK politics too man people afraid to risk their comfortable jobs, lack of principles, and many of them cowering the Labour Party.

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Dec 16 - 06:42 AM

His excuse for not turning up was that he, unlike other MEPs, was the leader of a political party. A ragbag collection of unprincipled thugs, more like, as they've clearly demonstrated since June.

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Dec 16 - 05:52 AM

Amusing ........... yes, no doubt. Surprising .......... not at all.

Farage's record of taking on the EU and "changing the EU from the inside" is nothing less than pathetic.

He has attended the fewest European parliamentary votes of any party in the EU's 28 countries.

Since 1999 he has collected his salary as an MEP together with generous expenses each year. Some of those expenses claims have been questioned and would provide for a interesting debate all on their own

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Dec 16 - 05:22 AM

So he succeeded in changing the EU from the inside, did he? "Succeeded?" If so, why does he still want us out? Doesn't say much for his "success," does it? Perhaps he'd have had more "success" had he turned up for votes a bit more often. As it is, there are 746 MEPs and he has the 745th best voting record, the only person below him being a long-term sick man. Still, on €100,000 a year plus expenses, why would he worry? Just about the most egregious exploiter of that very same "gravy train" you're always whingeing about. How amusing to see you and ache defending such a man of principle!

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Dec 16 - 03:15 AM

"Farage had his own mistruths to pedal "Leave the EU and restore our Sovereignty" "Make Britain a self governing nation again" "Lower energy prices and scrapping 'green' taxes" etc etc before he went back to collecting his 96,000 Euro salary plus expenses for being a MEP." - Raggy

Ah so in doing so he was actually achieving what all our other totally useless MEPs have been rabbiting on about since 1973 - Changing the EU from the inside - Farage stood for election to the EU Parliament with the clearly expressed and honest intention of getting the UK OUT of the EU - you tell me Raggy did he succeed? Did he keep his promises to those who elected him and all the other UKIP MEPs? I'd say yes he did, now tell me what changes and reforms Conservative, Labour and LibDem MEPs have managed to achieve from the inside in Europe.

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Dec 16 - 03:05 AM

Donuel - 27 Dec 16 - 06:30 PM

Since 2008 the Russians, ( and when I say that I am referring the Russian leadership) had been doing a bit of muscle flexing and until they decided to attempt to reclaim parts of the Ukraine a country THEY gave independence to, nobody has really provided any "back pressure" to curb this "expansionism".

I'd love to know what "Farage evil is" Donuel, but if it is of the same "Donuel invented sort" that you attributed to Senator John McCain you can keep it to yourself.

As to the two Trump tweets:

1: " let it be an arms race "

Stated in response to Putin declaring a massive overhaul and expansion of Russia's military capabilities with particular emphasis on her nuclear capabilities. In stating the above your President elect is merely reminding both Russia, and as a sidebar China, what it was that lost both the "Cold War" and in Russia's case the collapse of the USSR and the communist regime. It is a good, relevant and timely reminder for Russia's current leader that it will be race that Russia will again lose.

2: & European leaders are weak

What on earth is wrong with that? It is a mere statement of recognised fact - European leaders ARE weak and totally ineffectual - especially if viewed from a US perspective.

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Dec 16 - 02:41 AM

Raggytash - 27 Dec 16 - 01:14 PM

I am only stating the wording on the side of the "Battle Bus"

If any party meant to say £350 million COULD be spent on the NHS they should not have written "We send the EU £350 Milllion a week, Let's Fund our NHS instead, Vote Leave" "Let's take back control"

That is quite clear to most sane, rational people but obviously not so to people who prefer to argue in semantics.

Ehmmmmm No Raggy - Let's {Let us} do something to most sane, rational people implies a suggested, NOT a definite, course of action or choice.

As to arguing about semantics, there are believe it or not certain professions and circumstances where words have to be chosen very carefully to ensure that the meaning of what is being said is absolutely clear. The English language is notoriously ambiguous and difficult when it comes to precision of meaning which is why in days gone by French was chosen as the language of diplomacy as in French it is far easier to say precisely and unambiguously what you mean.

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Dec 16 - 06:44 PM

Sorry, that was an accidental click. It happens sometimes when I pick up the phone. Apologies to one and all.

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Dec 16 - 06:34 PM

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Dec 16 - 06:30 PM

Farage evil is amateur balderdash.

I RAISE YOU 2 Trump tweets " let it be an arms race " & European leaders are weak

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Dec 16 - 05:06 PM

DMcG and Raggtytash are both absolutely right. I care not a jot who coined the £350 million per week bus slogan or the suggestion that the money could or should go to the NHS. Farage and his party were more than happy to be associated with those lies. There was no retraction, apart from wriggling when pressed, until after the vote was in the bag. Whether the slogan was initially uttered by Farage is completely irrelevant. What is relevant is that he has a very big mouth and was more than capable of dismissing the slogan as lies. Which he didn't. The perpetuation of the lie was right up his street.

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Dec 16 - 04:15 PM

Not really, Teribus. The point of all three statements is to make an association in the listeners mind between the item and the number
The exact words are not critical when we are really talking about the 'feeelong' created by the phrases. And they are intentionally deceitful. Let us assume you are right and the claim was just about a possible course of action. Then any other course of action is equally possible. They could have said a possible action was to give tax incentives to businesses, but they didn't choose that. They could have said they would spend it in flood defences but they didn't.   Out of all possible 'courses of action' they chose the NHS. And the reason was to build an association between spending this money and the NHS. Or do you have an alternative explaination why NHS was the possible route they choose to emphasise?

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Dec 16 - 02:07 PM

ah!! silly me, the penny has dropped regarding D Mc G......It was that intervention by MrT that did it.

I must be getting old or someone is getting careless.

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Dec 16 - 01:40 PM

You do have a point Raggytash, but a completely different one from the point Mr Shaw was attempting to make?

The slogan was carelessly worded but not uttered by Mr Farage. In fact I did hear him in an interview saying that not all the money would be spent on the NHS ....in his opinion.
Mr Farage would of course have no say in where the money was spent?

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Dec 16 - 01:29 PM

A 96,000 Euro plus expenses, I should add, that has increased in Sterling value by about 10% since the Brexit vote.

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Dec 16 - 01:14 PM

I am only stating the wording on the side of the "Battle Bus"

If any party meant to say £350 million COULD be spent on the NHS they should not have written "We send the EU £350 Milllion a week, Let's Fund our NHS instead, Vote Leave" "Let's take back control"

That is quite clear to most sane, rational people but obviously not so to people who prefer to argue in semantics.

Neither Johnson or Farage, who as you correctly state was not a part of that particular fiasco, did anything to suggest that it was not the case that monies would or could be directly transferred.

Farage had his own mistruths to pedal "Leave the EU and restore our Sovereignty" "Make Britain a self governing nation again" "Lower energy prices and scrapping 'green' taxes" etc etc before he went back to collecting his 96,000 Euro salary plus expenses for being a MEP.

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Dec 16 - 01:08 PM

DMcG - 27 Dec 16 - 12:46 PM - Complete and utter BS DMcG and you are the one guilty of deliberate misrepresentation

Statement 1: We "could" fund the NHS that amount.

Is a statement detailing a possible future course of action - COULD as Akenaton says is the operative word. It is not a definite statement of intention.

Statement 2: A hair dye will cover "up to 100% of the grey".

That is a definite s statement to the efficiency of the product - WILL being the operative word.

Statement 3: A bleach kills "up to 99%" of germs.

A definite claim and statement of the efficiency of the product.

In other words DMcG you are comparing Apples to Oranges.

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: DMcG
Date: 27 Dec 16 - 12:46 PM

We "could" fund the NHS that amount. A hair dye will cover "up to 100% of the grey".   A bleach kills "up to 99%" of germs. These are vapid noises of no value or merit, not serious points. And anyone who makes them is knowingly practicing deceit.

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Dec 16 - 12:45 PM

Raggytash, the statement had nothing to do with Mr Farage.
Boris Johnston made the original statement which included the word COULD.

Mr Shaw is completely wrong to credit the slogan to Mr Farage. He did so in an attempt to better Keith (that would be a first) :0)
Fortunately his claim has been exposed as "more made up shit"

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Dec 16 - 12:33 PM

Ake, you are mistaken the bus clearly states "lets fund our NHS instead"

No could or should.

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Dec 16 - 12:24 PM

For Thompson:

Immigration last 10 years

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Dec 16 - 12:20 PM

That was aimed at akenaton.

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Dec 16 - 12:19 PM

Absolute rubbish. He was the leader of the party that hoodwinked the public into voting leave and he was the prime mover for leave. All round him leave campaigners in his own party as well as within Tory ranks were saying those things whether he uttered them or not (and he did). Did you hear him saying that the bus ad was a lie? No you did not. Did you hear him protesting that the NHS WASN'T going to get the money? No you did not. Some nice twisting and turning when confronted with the reality, for sure, but no retraction. Those things suited him down to the ground and he had ample opportunities to correct them. Did he do so? No he did not. Not one word until he'd safely won the vote. You might as well claim that Pontius Pilate had nothing to do with the death of Jesus.

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Dec 16 - 12:13 PM

Nothing of what you C&Pd makes any difference to my position, Teribus and I have not suggested anything contrary at all.

Jo Cox was fighting against extremism and it was extremism that killed her. To link Brendan Cox with extremism is callous and uncalled for. That is my position and has been consistently so throughout the thread. I have never stated anywhere that Farage has tried to link Brendan Cox with anyone specific. Just that he implies that Brendan Cox supports extremism. I may not be as wily as Farage but I do know what I both said and meant!

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: akenaton
Date: 27 Dec 16 - 11:53 AM

From Mr Shaw..."Try to be honest about something for a change, Keith. And you have now said three times that he is not known for making false claims. So it's true that we give the EU £350 million per week, is it? So it's true that the £350 million per week will be spent on the NHS, is it?"

Mr Farage had absolutely nothing to do with the Vote Leave claim that £350,000 COULD be used on the NHS.

Pay particular attention to the word "could"

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: Thompson
Date: 27 Dec 16 - 11:49 AM

This thread seems like the definition of "the expense of spirit in a waste of time", but could I ask both sides for one fact, please? How many immigrants have entered Britain in the last 10 years, where from, and what proportion of the population do they make up?

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Dec 16 - 11:33 AM

Dave the Gnome - 27 Dec 16 - 09:48 AM

Teribus, I don't know how I can explain this any more clearly. Neither Farage nor I nor anyone else has suggested Brendan Cox had any links with the person that killed his wife.

Now that DtG is the exact opposite of what you state here:

Dave the Gnome - 25 Dec 16 - 08:06 AM

"Do you support him attacking a widower by suggesting he has links to the extremism that killed his wife"

And again here:

Dave the Gnome - 23 Dec 16 - 02:18 PM

"when a public figure abuses his prominent position to tell the world a widower is linked to the very thing his wife was fighting against when she was murdered"

At NO POINT AT ALL has Farage EVER told the world that - and you damn well know it.

"The day after Cox died, 17 June 2016, Brendan Cox set up a GoFundMe page named "Jo Cox's Fund" in aid of three charities which he described as "closest to her heart": the Royal Voluntary Service, Hope not Hate, and the White Helmets, a Syrian civil defence group."

See any connection there between Brendan Cox, purportedly Jo Cox, and the militant campaigning group "Hope not Hate"? That is the "Hope not Hate" group that according to Dan Hodges, uses "dirty, underhand, low down, unscrupulous" tactics in their efforts to crush political opponents.

How about this for a piece of gross misrepresentation from Nick Lowles writing in the Guardian:

When Nigel Farage used a radio interview this week to publicly attack Brendan Cox, husband of the murdered Labour MP Jo Cox, he lashed out in the most unbelievable way. Just six months after Jo was murdered by neo-Nazi Thomas Mair, the former Ukip leader attempted to pin the extremist tag on Brendan Cox because of his association with the organisation I head, Hope not Hate.

Here again is what Nigel Farage said:

"Well, he would know more about extremists than me, wouldn't he. He backs organisations like Hope Not Hate, who masquerade as being lovely and peaceful, but actually pursue violent and very undemocratic means." - Reported words of Farage

It is undeniable that Brendan Cox did provide financial backing to "Hope not Hate" - matter of audited record.

It is not Brendan Cox who is being tarred with the "extremist" label - it is "Hope not Hate" who Farage views as being "extremist".

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Dec 16 - 10:30 AM

At least my views on Farage are not as extreme as some :-)
DtG

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Dec 16 - 09:48 AM

Teribus, I don't know how I can explain this any more clearly. Neither Farage nor I nor anyone else has suggested Brendan Cox had any links with the person that killed his wife. What I am saying is that I find it wrong that Farage suggested that Brendan Cox had links with ANY exremist organisation while the Cox family are still grieving after Jo Cox's death at the hands of an extremist. It was unfeeling and, in my opinion, a despicable thing to do. You may find it justified or you may see nothing wrong with it. That is your right just as it is mine to express my views.

Cheers

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Dec 16 - 08:32 AM

She opened her doors to refugees. Let's be careful, unlike Farage, to keep that entirely separate from the free movement of EU citizens.

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Dec 16 - 08:19 AM

Far from my questions being irrelevant as you put DtG - Your reluctance to address them stems from the fact that it was YOU who were the one that did the linking, based on absolutely nothing.

Nigel Farage did not make any reference at all to the murder of Jo Cox, and most certainly did not make any reference to any association between Brendan Cox or the person who killed her (Please note NO right wing organisation had any connection with the death of Jo Cox - If you dispute that then offer up some hard substantive evidence - I am not the slightest bit interested in opinion)

Is "Hope not Hate" an "extremist" organisation?? It is certainly "militant" in what it sees as it's chosen causes that would prompt it to push faux-news knowing it to be inaccurate and misleading - that makes them rather dangerous. Brendan Cox chose "Hope not Hate" as a beneficiary of the funds raised after the his wife's murder - so the link between Brendan Cox and "Hope not Hate" is an undeniable fact.

As a result of this exchange "Hope not Hate" has resorted to crowdfunding to raise the money it would require to sue Nigel Farage (Apparently the sums of money they get from Trades Unions and the Jo Cox Fund aren't sufficient). I pray that Hope Not Hate does sue Farage because it will allow this debate to move beyond arrogant, politically partisan virtue signalling to a genuine examination of the facts.

1: Is Hope Not Hate really "a well-respected, civil society organisation"? I would remind you that it was not Farage but that bastion of rational and independent journalism - The Economist - which revealed that Hope not Hate exaggerated 'hate speech' claims by over 3000 percent following the murder of Jo Cox MP. The Hope not Hate website has also published opinion columns by Fiyaz Mughal, director of the 'anti-Islamophobia' website Tell Mama - which itself lost all its Government funding after hugely inflating the number of hate crimes following the murder of Lee Rigby.

Not much respect there then - especially for the facts.

2: I Would point out, too, that it is not Farage, but the former communications advisor of Hate not Hope - Dan Hodges - who says "Hope not Hate" uses "dirty, underhand, low down, unscrupulous" tactics in their efforts to crush political opponents. I think we can probably take the 'civil' out of the 'civil society organisation' assertion.

3: Jo Cox's husband was happy to overtly blame right wingers for creating the context that led to his wife's murder, but that he now expresses a moral objection when Farage, not unreasonably, draws attention to the sadly inconvenient fact that Merkel opened her borders to mass migration despite being warned at the time (not least by ISIS) that killers would be travelling amongst the refugees.

In a Court of Law under rules of evidence I suspect that Hope Not Hate will come off rather the worse in the encounter.
 

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Dec 16 - 07:20 AM

Sorry ake, I don't understand how the post to Greg has any bearing on my question to you. You need to explain.

Teribus - Simply linking Brendan Cox to any sort of extremism is hurtful to the grieving family. That is the point and it makes your questions irrelevant.

Keith - See above.

Farage is indeed wily and clever. He will make sure that he has nothing to answer for in law while managing to smear those who stand against him. It is a transparent tactic and I, along with many others, believe he is indeed a loathsome character. I am sure he has no interest in other peoples opinions anyway unless he can see some way of promoting himself. As he did here.

DtG

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 27 Dec 16 - 05:52 AM

They were refugees. I don't bloody care how old they looked. They were nothing to do with the sort of EU immigration that the racist Farage continually prattles on about. The photo was inappropriately used by him to make some point or other. Try to be honest about something for a change, Keith. And you have now said three times that he is not known for making false claims. So it's true that we give the EU £350 million per week, is it? So it's true that the £350 million per week will be spent on the NHS, is it?

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Dec 16 - 05:20 AM

Dave,
Do you support him attacking a widower by suggesting he has links to the extremism that killed his wife, ake?

He did not suggest that.
He suggested that he had links to a different extremism.
If that is a lying smear, it is indeed despicable.

If there is some truth in it is fair comment.

Whatever else he may be, Farage is wily and clever, and not known for making claims that subsequently prove false.
I know nothing about Brendan and the organisation referred to but I predict that the legal action will be quietly dropped or that it fails.

Steve,

The people in the queue were refugees.

They were all young (military age) men.
Real refugees tend to be less homogenous so economic migrants may be a more suitable description.

Steve and Dave,
Farage's politics are those of UKIP whose manifesto is available on line.
Please identify the most loathsome bit or any loathsome bits.

Subject: RE: BS: A new political low take 2
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Dec 16 - 05:11 AM

"Do you support him attacking a widower by suggesting he has links to the extremism that killed his wife" - Asks DtG

Now please feel free to correct me on any of the following that is factually wrong:

Point 1: Jo Cox was murdered by Thomas Mair, a 52-year-old Batley and Spen constituent who had a history of psychiatric problems and links to the U.S.-based National Alliance, a neo-Nazi group".

Initial reports indicated that the gunman shouted "Britain first" as he carried out the attack.

The far-right Britain First party issued a statement denying any involvement or encouragement in the attack and suggested that the phrase "could have been a slogan rather than a reference to our party".

At Mair's trial a witness stated that he shouted, "This is for Britain. Britain will always come first".

Question 1 for DtG: What proven evidence is there of Brendan Cox being a supporter or member of the US-based National Alliance, the only political movement Mair had any sort of connection with?

Point 2: "Well, he would know more about extremists than me, wouldn't he. He backs organisations like Hope Not Hate, who masquerade as being lovely and peaceful, but actually pursue violent and very undemocratic means." - Reported words of Farage

The exchange that prompted the above was nothing whatsoever to do with the murder of Jo Cox, it was about the Christmas Market attack in Berlin.

Question 2 to DtG: Where and when does Nigel Farage make any reference to the murder of Jo Cox?

Point 3: After her death, Brendan Cox set up a Memorial Trust in memory of his wife. There were three beneficiaries all selected by Brendan Cox, one of them was the "Hope not Hate" group referred to by Nigel Farage.

Question 3 to DtG: Is the following true with regard to "Hope not Hate" - In November 2016 a press release from Hope not Hate exaggerated the findings of a report on abusive social media following the murder of Jo Cox MP by a right-wing extremist. The press release was used by several national newspapers which subsequently withdrew the articles - Source: The Economist. 17th December 2016 ISSN 0013-0613. Article "A supposed outpouring of online hatred against Jo Cox, a murdered MP, was exaggerated".

Answer those questions honestly and you will find that Nigel Farage said nothing that could be even remotely interpreted as him - attacking a widower by suggesting he has links to the extremism that killed his wife.