BS: Is there a god or not?

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST,God
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 05:04 AM

I made ants so people would not drop sugar on the floor. It is a dangerous practice. People could slip and hurt themselves.

Uri was a mistake. I meant to make Chicken Piri and the recipe went wrong. It had ants crawling on it.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 01:34 AM

another PS=waht sort of cakes do you like?
and waht do you think about Uri Geller, ie is he a wanker or not, and will you let him go to heaven?
[ i wouldent if i was you, he;s crap].

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 01:31 AM

PS=If you are the real God, then waht did you make ants for?, they are rubbish.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 01:28 AM

GUEST God-Are you the real God, or are you just another mudcatter messing about?

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Two_bears
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 01:16 AM

Littlehawk - I didn't say I don't believe in God. I just don't think he/she is necessarily the creator nor do I believe in divine order. I do, however, know that there is a web of life to which we are all connected. The chaos of today is related to the fact that we have all created a God of War. A God that protects his own and urges the annihilation of others who do not hold the same beliefs. I also believe that God is not all powerful or this wouldn't be happening. If there is one, true God, he speaks to each of us and it is our duty to listen.

Diana:

I think God is every atom of hydrogen, and matter in the universe.

Here is the taosist concept of the Tao. They do not consider the Tao to be the creator of the universe. According to Taoists the Tao was in the void, and was there for an indetermitable amount of time. At some point the Tao reached awareness, and realized it was alone, and lonely; so the Tao created two companions Yin and Yang. Then Yin and Yang began interacting with each other, and the physical universe was created without intention to do so.

I am not a Taoist, nor a Buddhist, nor a Christian, nor a Gnostist, Nor an Eckist, and others; because I see, talk to, and receive messages from the Creator every day.

I do believe in divine right order. If the earth was 5% closer to the sun; we woud burn. If we were 5% farther away; we would freeze, from the earth the sun and moon appear to be the same size of the sun (total solar exlipse), the earth's shadow is the correct size to completely cover the moon. and there are about 100 things we need for life as we know it to exist.

I believe there is a Creator, and I do not believe there is only one right religion. I think all religions are right for some people.

ANL - 2B

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Pogo
Date: 13 Sep 04 - 12:43 AM

BillD

:)

Can I ask you please do not bring the Mormon Church (which is my religion) into this conversation or well any specific church or religious group for that matter?

Just for the record...we are advised not to drink beverages with caffiene not ordered to and we do not (well should not but I can't speak for everyone :) ) impose this healthstyle on anyone. Personally if someone was to drink a coke in my presence I certainly would not drop dead of shock or knock it out of their hand and tell them they were going to hell :) but I really cannot help it if someone feels uncomfortable drinking a coke in my presence.

And I suspect that since so many people out in Utah are in fact members of the Mormon Church it would not surprise me that a store owned by a Mormon would not sell alcoholic beverages, tea, coffee etc. but I imagine that is the personal choice of the storeowner not a law officially enforced or influenced by the church. Now I may or may not be wrong (since I don't live in Utah) However I hardly think it is difficult to find such beverages there if you look hard enough :) so there seems to be no real problem

Anyways...I'm done. Yawl can get back to figuring out if God exists or not. Good luck

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST,John O'Lennaine
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 11:46 PM

The small-g god(s) we humans create is a seperate creature altogether from the large-G one which instigated life, the universe and everything - the unmoved mover?

Who or what is that, and how do we (each of us and/or all of us) relate to it?

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 08:48 PM

Okay, Dianavan, you are quite correct that AS the creator of the game I described I am not all-powerful within the context of the game, which is what makes the game interesting for me. But...I exist outside of the context of the game I made...and from my point of view it IS just a game. I could choose not even to play the game or to turn it off, thus ending it! That's up to me. If I want to see the game play itself out then I will not turn it off. Therefore, although I am potentially all-powerful in regards to the game, that doesn't mean that I let the fact that I am all-powerful get in the way of the game, assuming I am content to let the game play itself out.

To be all-powerful does not necessarily mean that you use that power to interfere in the free will of beings less powerful. In fact, if you love those beings, you don't do that at all, you let them work out their own destiny.

This is true of good parents in regards to their children also...in a general sense (excepting that a good parent will intervene to protect a child if it is truly necessary).

To be all-powerful is not to feel emotionally threatened by allowing others to exercise their own power in their own fashion.

Thus God is really quite democratic in nature. (In my opinion.) God is not afraid. Those who are afraid will always use what power they have to restrict the activities of other potentially free beings.

People would do well to follow this example and stop trying to trample on other people's sovereignty in order to feel "safe". Real power is self-mastery, not mastery of others. He who is really all-powerful will not in the least attempt to control others.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 07:16 PM

oh, wait- here it is.... Sonnets to my Muse" ... Thick black one with dust-bunnies...

My Qur'an is green; the New Testements are red, maroon, thin black, white, and cream; my book of Mormon is blue, my old Testements are blue and dark red, my Egyption Book of the Dead is a tan paperback, my Tibetan Book of the Dead is tan, ......

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 07:11 PM

I have lots like that... can you be more specific?

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST,god
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 07:10 PM

the thick black one with the dust bunnies all over it.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 06:47 PM

which book?

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST,god
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 06:41 PM

Look here people. I wrote the answers to all this down in my book. Didn't any of you read it?

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST,GOD
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 05:32 PM

You just wait until you get home!

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 05:30 PM

from my post here of
Date: 10 Sep 04 - 07:39 AM


I think the pharse is that "each of us define God in our own image."

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 05:25 PM

As the designer and creator of the computer game you are not all powerful because, as you stated, you don't know for sure what is going to happen. In other words, you are not in complete control.

I don't think God is the creator or the all powerful one that has complete control. I think we create God to meet our own needs and that God is within each of us. When we reflect and listen, we know what is right and what is wrong. We choose to act accordingly.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 03:07 PM

Yeah, Dianavan, I see what you mean. But what does "all-powerful" actually mean in that context?

Lets say that I designed a computer game of a whole world and set it up to be interactive. That is to say, the many little simulated people in the game would interact with each other and the rest of the environment in an intelligent fashion, and would have absolutely free will within the limits of that environment (so I wouldn't actually know for sure what any one of them might do in the next moment).

That's what a really good computer game is actually like! You don't know for sure what's going to happen, even though you may have designed and created the whole game.

That makes it interesting.

Am I, the creator of that computer game all-powerful in regards to that game or am I not? Think about that and see what you come up with.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 02:44 PM

Littlehawk - I didn't say I don't believe in God. I just don't think he/she is necessarily the creator nor do I believe in divine order. I do, however, know that there is a web of life to which we are all connected. The chaos of today is related to the fact that we have all created a God of War. A God that protects his own and urges the annihilation of others who do not hold the same beliefs. I also believe that God is not all powerful or this wouldn't be happening. If there is one, true God, he speaks to each of us and it is our duty to listen.

d

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 02:34 PM

God knows.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 12:12 PM

Just doodling ...1, where's the God of Folklore Mr Nerd?

And 2, if people are brave enough to be computing with DeCartes' spell, should they not first think before making complete fools of themselves?

As in ' I am therefore I think' ? gee what do you mean 'think'? perhaps you might have said ' I am therefore I do shit' also rubbish.

Anyway the obverse is surprising - isn't logic always sobering! - but something rather shocking for a Humanist adegenda. "When I am not thinking I am not" or "No unthinking things exist".

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 11:50 AM

Hi BillD. Where I think that my beliefs are an important part of my life and that I should live a certain way...I could not see me imposing those beliefs in any way shape or form on the rest of Society as we all have choices.
The fact that some of the practices are against Christian principles is not the reason for the laws being made as I see it, or should not be anyway. However, I would expect any Christian group to have some say in any discussion before proposals are finally put into force for anything which goes against the natural order of the world or interferes with human life. In short, Christians are not responsible for the laws of the land but should have the same input as anyone else in any debate.
Governments make laws...often flawed ones these days but they still make them. What I would like to see at the head of this country is a Patriotic Board of Directors with business minds, headed up by someone like Richard Branson....with a view to doing their best for the Country as a going concern. It would surely be better than factions of the Government, or parties, battling against each other using false promises to get elected and then failing to run it successfully. I would like to see a Christian on the Board but so would every other "religious" set up.
I guess there's no way either of us are going to change the world but perhaps we can help to make it a better place to live in some way.
I will sure be trying in whatever way I can.
Best wishes.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 11:16 AM

after building the next supercomputer, all the knowlegde know was fed in, and the question was entered: "Is there a God?".......







































The answer came out:



















"Now there is."

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 11:00 AM

then, what should I say to the Mormon church? There is a woodworking company the sponsors events in Utah regularly, and many people feel they cannot attend because they cannot even have a coke with caffiene in it on premises....But this is not a major problem....there are other issues which really divide the society.

"As to interfering with the human life form whether abortion or other....I would be totally against it."

I quite understand that you and others would be against it, and I would NEVER expect you to do something against your beliefs...but would you have it written into law, so as to forbid ME from using the procedure? There are ongoing attempts here to use religious principles to tell the NON-religious what they are allowed to do. As you may have read, murders have been committed by extremists in this cause. How can we have freedom for everyone to exercise NON-belief, as well as belief?

I guess that if we both believe and practice what you say in this, we may be able to al least get along...."I am not sure about you but I would love to see a world where man lives in peace with his neighbour/brother"

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 09:37 AM

BillD. Yes the Church of England has some say in secular matters but so do many other Churches.. What it does not do to me,as a Christian, is make laws that I need to abide by. I try, (probably very unsuccessfully as with most Christians), to live a Christian life by the example set by Jesus in the NT.... and by what I understand to be Gods expectations of me.
With regard to US money...yes you have "In God We Trust" and "One Nation under God" but what is on the back of your one dollar bill?.
The eye of horus sits as the capstone of a pyramid...certainly not of God but arrived as one of the two seals which represent the back of the one dollar bill.....two seals, received by Thomas Jefferson from the illuminati....There was a recent thread on the illuminati, on which I put a website for people to peruse if they wished...I will repeat it on here as I think it has much significance:-
http://www.conspiracyarchive.com/
Take a look if you have time and see what has been happening in our world for many decades.
Some Christians are in a battle against the dark powers, why? Not for me to say but always worth a bit of research if you have the time.
England used to be called a "Christian" country and many people worshipped God. Times have changed and so have attitudes....but have they changed for the better? Moral and emotional values have been watered down, to such an extent, that almost "anything goes" is the modern attitude.
I am not sure about you but I would love to see a world where man lives in peace with his neighbour/brother( that includes women ). Where we all worked for the common good. Is that ever possible and what would it take. Whatever anyone might think of Christianity...the message from God has always been quite specific and if all lived by His expectations we would have no killings, no drug addiction or alcoholism, no sexually transmitted diseases etc etc.
No I am not trying to preach to anyone but your description of people...flouting the "non religious" laws just demonstrated to me that there are Christians still around 2004 yrs after the death of Christ and still struggling to maintain some kind of balance in the world.
Incidentally, If I were in charge..I could see no reason why you should not buy and consume alcohol, I do in moderation. I would also not expect you to pay towards religious groups when taxed.
As to interfering with the human life form whether abortion or other....I would be totally against it.
What I certainly would do is respect your right to choose who or what you worship whether I agree with you or not. We all have the right to choose....the freewill.
Best wishes.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: kendall
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 07:18 AM

It seems to me that many people have a need to 'belong' and that can be a powerful reason for their joining any of the religious sects that exist. For me the problem is that those religions, whatever they are, have their own set of rules and their own view of God that come from a human being, not a divine source. I find living with someone else's take on a subject like that not to my liking.

I have my own faith and belief in a god, a view I have come to over the last fifty years. It is is a belief that keeps me going through the difficult times and brings me joy and contentment as well. I would not dream of insisting that my belief was the only was to salvation, I do not feel that I am qualified in telling anyone else how to worship. I am happy to discuss my beliefs with others and to listen to their own thoughts, just don't try to tell me that I'll go to hell if I don't follow the rules set down by another human being - I will not accept that arrogance.

There is no way that I can prove the existence of god, I just know what I believe and that is enough for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 03:08 AM

"We" have definitely created all kinds of gods (or versions of God) in our religions and creeds, Dianavan. No doubt about it, and most of them are just bigger more powerful images of US. That's what you find in most people's religious concepts of God...a projected image of themselves, imbued with additional strengths and powers that they feel they lack.

However, that doesn't indicate to me that there is no God. I know better than that at this point. It indicates to me that most people's religious ideas about God are exceedingly primitive and overlaid with tradition and superstition that they have swallowed without question or analysis. They haven't really though about it or investigated it in any depth, they've just bought someone else's story of it.

The only way one can know God is to directly experience God. I have not quite done that yet, in a fully conscious way, but I have directly experienced contact (and conversation) with an Angel...and that was pretty impressive, I can tell you. So impressive that in the light of that experience I would not even consider the notion any longer that there is no God. That Angel was a bearer of a powerful message. One that most people are incapable of really believing....because they feel too vulnerable and fearful. I'm still working on fully actualizing what that Angel told me. I may be working on it for the rest of this life.

And no, I do not experience hallucinations. Nor do I take any hallucinogenic substances.

shycat - Thank you! For a superbly evocative story that demonstrates spiritual truths I have known about and heard about and been studying for quite some time. What you describe is perfectly in line with what I have heard from a variety of sources. You are very fortunate to have had that experience, and you must have worked hard to earn it, I would think.

Bill - Yes, I understand your concerns about charlatans, people being led astray, and so on. I understand that and I agree with you. I share those same concerns, both with regard to misuse of esoteric information and methods (like some you mentioned) and misuse of conventional methods and information (in medicine or science, for example). In other words...I fear the abuses and misuses of the unconventional and the conventional alike...and I watch very carefully for them. Such tricky people are usually after money...or power...or both. I keep a close eye on them, believe me. I am cautious of both medical doctors and new age healers. I deal with each case on its own merits, using all the powers of logic, intuition, knowledge and judgement that I possess. Malpractice and incompetence occurs in many, if not all fields of human activity and belief. So does outright falsehood.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 02:40 AM

I'm not sure God is the creator of anything. I think we may have created God because we need a reason when all logic and reason fails.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST,John O'Lennaine
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 12:44 AM

My research has led me to the strong suspicion that God and the cosmos are one and the same. The creation and the creator. A self-regulating organism.
This of course requires intelligence, but not intelligence as we would be able to understand it, one that is quite beyond our comprehension.
In my model the cosmos keeps itself in balance by constant ebb and flow - where there is life there is change. For a constant but moving quantity of what we think of as "good" there is an equal non-static quantity of what we think of as "bad".
This could explain things like SIDS and other apparently random atrocities otherwise attributed to an unfeeling or non-existant diety.
It could also explain things like compassion, art, etc.
I should stress that these are suspicions, not beliefs. My research is ongoing and this model has not yet been road tested to the extent that I can confidently say "I believe".

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Bill D
Date: 12 Sep 04 - 12:30 AM

Georgiansilver...I believe you are in England? Doesn't the Church of England rule in various secular matters? (I could be wrong about this, but I do remember hearing that England has an 'official' church..)

In the USA, beside having "In God We Trust" on our money and "one nation under God" recently inserted into our Pledge of Allegience, we also have prayers offered at the opening of Congress, 'usually' straight Christian ones.....and in various Southern states, admonishments against prayer and religious teaching in public schools are routinely ignored, and specifically Christian prayers are offered over loudspeakers at ballgames. Add to this the practice of the current administration of promoting "Faith based inititives", wherein religious organizations(almost always 'conservative' organizations) get public money to "do good works"...and note that some science and medicine is severely restricted based primarily on 'moral' grounds which gets its definition from conservative religious principles. (Stem cell research is largely banned because of religious fears about 'souls', as are many abortion procedures).....

If it was not after midnight here, I could point to other laws, practices, Presidental 'decrees', court appointments, official negligence and local laws that support what I say...(In the state of Utah, the Mormon church manages to influence the law to forbid the sale of not only alcohol, but also tea and coffee in many public places...not just to Mormons, but to anyone.

I, obviously, do not care for these intrusive practices, whether they are DIRECT laws or simple intimidation. If I were in charge, YOU could worship as you pleased, avoid alcohol, not have abortions, and give your money to any church you wished....now, if YOU were in charge, could I buy alcohol, refuse to say "under God" when reciting the Pledge of Allegience, indulge in medical abortion when it seemed necessary and allow stem cell research on the aborted fetus and refuse to have my taxes go to religious groups?

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST,Uncertain...
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 09:58 PM

If im not religous, or just unsure about what lies ahead, Being a generally nice person, would that send me to hell rather than heaven?

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 06:59 PM

In case that 'there is no god' is the wrong response why do all posters seem to believe that there is one one of them?

Why is it always the dichotomy one-none and not the question 'how many' with none or one just being two possible of many responses?

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 06:56 PM

Thanks you are quicker than googling!

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: freda underhill
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 06:47 PM

Jurors have the choice of taking an oath.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 06:47 PM

It can be declined if the persons belief allows for it. Best wishes.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 06:43 PM

Aren't jurors sworn in by placing their hand on the bible, maybe that can be declined though?

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 06:35 PM

BillD...where are these tenets being introduced as law....please? and what are these laws? Best wishes.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 06:33 PM

Nor did God!

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 06:28 PM

Georgiansilver...you continue to miss my point, but now you are doing so with sarcams added....I have no infinite knowlege. I have no need to disprove Christanity--I never tried to. I am not convinced by it, but I see why othere might be. I am quite willing to co-exist with Christians, I just do not wish to have tenets of ANY religion directly introduced in the laws and practices of my country...right now, they ARE in many places.

M. Ted..yes, I'd have to pay the fine, but that has little relation to the point.

Yes, you have the choice of spending your money anyway you want, but if you KNEW there was a hoax involved, you'd probably rather not, and you might want others protected.

I have watched documentaries with interviews with young Muslims who SAID that they believed that suicide in the 'cause' was right, and other explanations by experts who explained it in deatil....I didn't invent the idea....

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: M.Ted
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 06:09 PM

BillD.-bottom line is, if it is illegal to dance naked around the fountain, and you did it, you will have to pay the fine, whether you did it because faeries told you to, or for serious reasons(like to get your state nudist lisense)--

As to the fortune teller, it is my money, and I can spend it however I want--As to homeopathy, it's cheap, it often works, and it doesn't kill nearly as many people as conventional medicine does--As to the suicide bombers, maybe you believe that is why they are killing themselves, but that doesn't make it so--

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 05:42 PM

So please, with your infinite knowledge BillD. Disprove Christianity. With of course the great knowledge you have of the subject as with other things....I wait with anticipation.
Best wishes.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 05:32 PM

I'm sorry, Georgiansilver, but you have missed a couple of the points I made and distorted others.

I can certainly test news about hurricanes, both by photographs and by reliability of the predictions the news brings me. I, personally, get the leftover rains from these storms, and I see pictures of the damage done elsewhere. We are not arguing about whether I am obligated to doubt everything because I doubt some things.

I have studied MANY beliefs, and though I have not necessarily disPROVED them, I have dismissed some because they turned out to be hoaxes (like the gentle one of Santa Claus) and others because there were conflicting beliefs which could not ALL be true, and others because they required me to ignore other things I did know to be true.

As to being affected by others beliefs...suppose YOU were told that "the earth is the center of the Universe, and no other theory will be tolerated"? This happened to Galileo, and it certainly affected him! Giordano Bruno also had problems making HIS ideas fit with any of the church leaders of the times, and it got him burned at the stake, even though his ideas were closer to the Church than to Galileo.

Today there are still those who would impose their beliefs on the rest of society if they could, and that they can't does not make them 'right', and neither does NOT trying to impose on others.
   I 'mostly' agree that, as you say, " A belief is a belief whether you care for it or not...Your words cannot change beliefs."...but what I write MAY eventually affect how someone thinks or believes, just as your witnessing and being a good example for your beliefs MAY help others to believe similarly. But, with this situation, we need a system where the rights of both sides can be respected. This should not be a matter for 'majority rule'-- I am sure that if 99% of your country became atheists, you would at least like the privilege of continuing to worship in your way....and if 99% of my country became Christians, I should still have the right to not be intimidated by the majority and have their reasoning preached directly at me, in school, at ball games, or any where else!

I advocate a type of testing/reasoning/thinking that allows you to believe anything you wish, but which still makes clear that certain beliefs are ONLY beliefs. Subjective experiences like that written about so clearly by shycat above cannot be ignored--the experience was real...but it WAS subjective, and literally, **no one knows** how or why it happened or whether it has more 'reality' than the intense dream I had last night. I think I can explain how experiences like dreams and 'out of body' experiences like shycat's (and other's) might happen, but I certainly can't PROVE it....and I am not trying to. She felt this intensely, and it meant something to her, whether it was real or not. So do my dreams! They are MINE, and I see aspects of me in them...but I do not claim that my dreams come FROM anywhere but inside me...because I can't defend that position!

I don't know if all that makes any difference....you may never agree with me, but I sure hate being misunderstood and my ideas mis-represented!

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 04:45 PM

Thank you God...is that really you????

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST,God
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 04:44 PM

100

I bless you all my children

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 03:33 PM

So BillD...how do you test a belief? You study it until it becomes so obvious to you that it is not real that you drop it like a hot potato!
Which beliefs have you studied and why have you dismissed them?. A belief is a belief whether you care for it or not...Your words cannot change beliefs.
You say "I sure do not wish to be controlled/affected by fallout from beliefs that I cannot share and cannot be tested". So what does it take for you to believe anything???. If the news tells you a hurricane is approaching you(wherever you are) which could wipe out all your community, what would you do?......it cannot be tested or proved that it will happen but can be predicted by modern technology which we all know may be accurate or not. From what you say though, you would know the answer because you are not controlled/affected which means you have all the answers...I wish I did.
There are things I believe which some on the Cat will try to destroy or put down, because their framework of life does not allow for it...( proven by reactions on other threads). What would I have to do to prove my belief to you?. You, as for all other Catters choose what you believe, so get on with it...if your beliefs are right all will be well...if they are not..they perhaps won't.
Best wishes.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Amos
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 02:43 PM

Shycat:

Yo!! That's what I'm talkin' about, man!! Good on ya!! Best description of God I have seen yet!!

A

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 02:34 PM

(oh, I NEVER said "anything (I) can't "prove" is not worth talking about" It is often very important to sort out..and I certain have no desire to control everything...but I sure do wish not to BE controlled/affected by fallout from beliefs that I cannot share and that cannot be tested)

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Bill D
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 02:28 PM

alright..once more, and, I hope, simply.

The point is not about 'proving', nor are fairies these days a major issue, but they represent a class which IS an issue. As you indicate LH, I do not 'need' to prove everything, and I do not rush about expecting everyone to submit every slightly unusual experience for analysis.

But, at one time in some cultures, fairies WERE an item of serious cultural concern, and were believed to affect the lives of the people. What do you suppose would happen in court if a person were asked to explain why he/she was dancing naked in the garden in violation of local statutes? "The fairies promised me a magic ring if I would dance naked with them." ...If the judge and jury didn't believe in fairies, it would be a problem.

Today, we have other things which are 'beliefs' which are items of moderate to serious concern. Fortune tellers extract money from people by claiming to 'see' things in crystal balls. (moderate concern) Practictioners of 'alternative medicine' dilute herbs & suppliments to one part in a billion and sell them as 'cures'. (moderate to serious concern). Murders are committed "because God told me to!" (or voices, or whatever) (pretty serious concern). And entire nations and cultures engage in atrocities and war based on various belief systems or distortions of belief systems .."don't worry about blowing yourself up...you will go directly to Paradise"..."God is on our side" (pretty damn serious concern?) Various hoaxes which require gullibility are perpetrated every day, some by folks who actually believe what they say..(is it still a hoax?...ask victims who figger out the truth too late)

We teach children various things to keep them safe (until they are old enough to figure it out for themselves, hopefully)..."Stay away from bottles which have Mr. Yuck on them" "Don't talk to strangers when I am not there." We don't try to explain all the details...we expect them to BELIEVE us until they learn discernment.

But we do so very little in teaching the basic rules of reason and understanding, because if we did, the kids would be questioning other things.."ummm..how do I KNOW there is a Paradise and that Allah will take me there if I kill some of our 'enemies'?" "Are you sure that if I take extract of peach pits and put magnets in my shoes, I won't have to undergo that nasty, expensive cancer treatment?"

I could, of course, go on.....but that, briefly, is why I keep hoping that people will begin to see the subtler points about what the difference is between 'believing' and 'knowing', and why I remind folks that IF they make claims about their experiences that might affect others, even indirectly, they need to be clear about that difference. *IF* you might be wrong, and you influence others to belive as you do, without YOUR experience, you might be perpetuating a myth with consequences far worse than dancing naked with the fairies.

The real point is, careless belief is a bad habit, even if certain instances of it are mostly innocuous.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST,shycat
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 11:02 AM

hi guys

i talked about part of this experience once before on the cat. here it is again, as the reason for my own belief in a supreme being.

i practised a form of meditation which was similar to Tibetan buddhism, although it was an indian practise. I spent over a dozen years practising meditation, four times a day, and yoga twice a day. I visited my spiritual teacher in India in 1976. He placed his hands hovering over my head, and at the time i felt nothing. I went through a difficult time from 1978 - 82, for various reasons, with my health and a bad marriage. the marriage had fallen apart the week before. I went to a group meditation, one evening a few days later. this is my experience:

At the beginning of the meditation, I had a feeling or perception that my spiritual teacher (who was in India at the time) had entered the room and walked across to me. I felt his hands hovering over my head, just as he had done when I visited him six years earluier. I meditated, eyes closed, concentrating until my mind became so still that my sense of observing self withdrew to a point of non- presence.

Suddenly I am in the night sky, space. A huge ball shoots away from me, becoming smaller, until it becomes a small dot in the universe and disappears in space. I have just zoomed from my planet towards a huge light, shooting through the universe. A hole in time, a pause.
I fly through the night sky, emerging from the closest star, the sun. From a huge mass of burning light that is conscious, explosive, vibrant. I zoom through the universe, towards my body which is now collapsed on the floor. Returning, I see myself in a totally detached way, my personality traits, faults and strengths, as if observing a genetic program.

I observe that I will enter that body, that genetic pattern, that I'm going to be that again, then I plunge straight back into that body and personality.

Now I am lying stretched out on the floor. My body feels saturated in light and is so conscious, and I am so drunk with ecstasy, that I cannot move. My mind is not limited to a point within my skull. My whole body is conscious and my mind is perceiving from my whole body. My body is made up of a sea of atoms/cells, each cell is glowing with golden light. Each cell is its own conscious entity. Each cell of my body is consciously perceiving. My mind is dwelling in my body, a sea of billions of little minds.

My three month old daughter is placed in my arms. I hold her, and she too becomes saturated in the golden cocoon of awareness. Some time later, my muscles are so relaxed that they don't function
properly. I have to be helped to sit up and walk because I can't
co-ordinate myself properly.

This happened in February 1982. It was not the result of imagination or visualisation. If it was i would do it every night. it felt real, like my spirit had left my body and the planet, flown through the starry sky and into a huge ball of conscious light (the sun?), a conscious entity, before emerging, returning, re entering my body, which was by now saturated with joy and in a state of complete ecstasy.

many years later, my daughter has grown up to have a very happy, almost charmed life. my own life was full of a huge amount of struggle and and many challenges, which were resolved about twenty years later. i now feel mostly at peace and feel I've had a lucky life, altho its been very difficult at times.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 10:48 AM

I don't necessarily expect others to "accept" the notion of faerys, God, or interplanetary visitors....I just expect them to keep an open mind about it....not to deny it uncategorically the moment it is mentioned, and ridicule the person who mentions it. And that often happens when these matters come up.

I think it's a control issue with people. They want to be in control of the agenda in some way. They want their version of reality to rule and be sovereign at all times. That's a control issue.

Why should it bother someone if I believe in God or in faerys?

And why would people think that anything they can't "prove" is not worth talking about? Because they want to control everything? I think so.

I am perfectly happy knowing that I can't control everything.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Sep 04 - 10:38 AM

Terry - I do not believe that God, by definition, must be worshipped. I do not believe there is anything anyone must do in regards to God. We have free will. Absolutely free. There are no restrictions or demands placed upon our use of it. The only restrictions are those that rest upon natural law as governs the use of physical forms and energy patterns in nature. Example: I cannot jump higher than a certain rather limited distance, given this physical body and the existence of gravity on this planet. Therefore, there's a natural limit placed on my free will in regards to how high I can jump.

Those restrictions are basically the rules which establish the borders and structures of "the game" we are all playing here. You can't have a game without rules and structure of some kind. Except for those rules, we are free to make any move we want at any time, and we are most certainly NOT required to worship God.

It's the friggin' organized religions which require people to worship God, and people created those religions.