BS: Is there a god or not?

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 09:11 PM

Yeah, yeah, they exist! No doubt about that. Bill, there are so many false gods out there that you couldn't shake a stick at all of them...

What do you think that passage was about in the Bible that warned about having "no other Gods before me"?...it was about the many other worldly things that people choose to serve and worship in preference to Spirit...in preference to Love....in preference to the Golden Rule.

It was about selfishness, greed, acquisitiveness, ambition, lust, pride, ego, vengeance... and all those other self-aggrandizing things that people serve in their insecurity...including vicious and exclusionary religions and churches that serve not Spirit, but themselves.

Look at what a person DOES on a daily basis, how he acts, what he willingly gives his attention to, and you will see what it is that he truly worships and serves. He either works in favour of Life in general...or he depletes and damages Life in general. Spirit is all of Life, not just one privileged part that has been set up as a false god over the rest.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 08:44 PM

playing fast & loose with the definitions there, LH. *grin*

most of those entities exist, whether you 'believe in' the values or not...(I even agree with you about many of those values, just not on your equivocation on the term)

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 08:32 PM

An atheist being: someone who doesn't believe in someone else's idea of "God", right?

I'm a political atheist. I don't believe in either the Democrats or the Republicans.

I don't believe in the flag either. More atheism.

I respect money and find it handy, but do not consider it all-powerful. More atheism.

I place very little value on fame. More atheism.

I like physical beauty, but I know that it will not last. More atheism.

I belong to no traditional churches. More atheism.

I have major doubts about romance and/or marriage producing lasting happiness. More atheism.

I respect science, but do not imagine that it can ever answer my most important questions about Life. More atheism.

I am highly skeptical of the AMA and the drug companies. More atheism.

See what I mean? Most people's gods do not impress me as being worth following.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 08:13 PM

nope...that's not what it depends on.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST,MC Fat
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 07:24 PM

Depends whether youre an aethiest

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Sep 04 - 06:30 AM

A Muslim was killed in a car accident and arrives at the gates of heaven. St. Peter says, "I'm St. Peter. Welcome to Heaven," The Muslim says, "Nice to meet you Peter, but I'm a Muslim and I want to meet Muhammad." St. Peter says, "Sure no problem. Climb up that ladder behind you and you will meet Muhammad." The Muslim climbs up the ladder, gets to the top and there is Moses. Moses says, "Hi I'm Moses. Welcome to Heaven." The Muslim is very excited - "Moses, its such an honour to meet you. But like I told St. Peter, I'm a Muslim and I really want to meet Muhammad." Moses says, "No problem. Climb up the ladder behind you and you will meet Muhammad." The Muslim climbs up the ladder, gets to the top, but he can't see anything except bright light. He sees this figure before him and asks, "Who are you?" The figure responds, "I am God. Nice to meet you. Welcome to Heaven." God walks over and shakes his hand. The Muslim is stunned - he can hardly speak. He says to God, "Sir, it is such an honour to meet you, I can't believe it, this place is great. But I'm a Muslim and, no disrespect intended, but I really want to meet Muhammad." God says, "Oh. You're here to see Muhammad. I see. No problem. Have a seat. Get comfortable. Can I get you some coffee or something to eat?" The Muslim says, "I would love a cup of coffee." God yells into the kitchen, "Hey Muhammad, two coffees!"

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Bill D
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 07:58 PM

oh, wonderful, freda! I may have to learn that one....It's da' real me...

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: freda underhill
Date: 26 Sep 04 - 12:07 PM

and here is another pice of inspiration!

The Spiritually Incorrect Blues

Woke up this mornin' I was feelin' real bad
I wasn't hungover – that ain't why I was sad
I drank me some coffee, I put on ma shoes,
And I sang those ole Spiritually Incorrect blues!
My little cat comes up to me and says 'miaow'!
I says to her 'Puss, are you tryin' somehow
'Cross the barrier of species with me to connect?'
Cos I want real bad to be spiritually correct.
Well Puss laid on her back and she showed me her tum,
She licked at her paws then, alas, at her bum.
Then she stood up and circled my legs and she mewed
In Cat, 'Forget THAT crap: gimme some food!
I went up the mountain and I walked round the Springs.
I got me some fresh air and exercise. Things
That my momma done tole me was real good for me
But I didn't get ENriched spiriTOOally!
I been to Jabiluka, and it was real nice,
But all I could think of was a drink filled with ice.
Couldn't feel no spirits – but I sure felt damn hot!
Cos spiritually correct – is one thing I'm not!
Woke up this mornin', wrote me a preamble
For dat ole constitution – I took me a gamble
That the guvvament would like it but they said 'Gal, you is
wrong.
You don't mention spirits – you don't get no Gong!'
Well I met me a nice boy – put a bun in my oven.
Sisterhood said Annie when time comes for pushin' and shovin'
Do it the spiritual way – without anaesthesia,
But I said bugger that, DRUGS make it easier.
Well I read of the marvels of deep meditation
How it leads to nirvana and soul revelation
How it gets you in touch with the entire universe
And I said to myself: Annie, you could do worse!
So I tried to sit - in the pose of the Buddha
With eyes closed and arms spread and if I could've I woulda
Put me ankles behind my head but I couldn't
And it hurt so much trying - I decided I wouldn't.
So I folded them under me and sat there for hours
Thinking spiritual thoughts – rivers, trees, clouds and flowers.
I chanted 'Om mane padme Om' once and again
Tried real hard to banish all thoughts - mundane.
I forgot about work, I forgot about shopping
'Om', I sang, and even forgot about stopping
For lunch! I've cracked it! I said, and rejoiced!
Prematurely, it turns out…. for I hoist
Myself onto my feet, which alas had no feeling
I stood up, fell over – so much for spiritual healing!
I sat there massaging my feet and my ankles
And thought: I gave it my best shot and that's what still rankles!
Well I ain't GOT no religion, and I ain't got no sign,
Never been astral travlin', and I cain't read no minds!
Got no karma or dharma, I'm beginnin' to suspect
That I'm truly and deeply spiritually INCORRECT!

From Page 20 - the Skeptic, Spring 2003
By Annie Warburton

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Teresa
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 10:42 PM

LOL Robin!

Ok **story alert**

I was teaching folks to use computers. A woman came into the computer lab in her wheelchair, assisted by the agency's receptionist. She told me she wanted to do some writing; her own poetry. When I asked her name, I realized that I had a book of her poetry in Braille. She told me she had had some back surgery, and her hearing was going rapidly. She had been blind all her life.

At the end of her visit, she handed me a Braille booklet of Tagore's poetry and said, "I have always treasured this, but I think you will just as much."

Two months later, there was a notice that she had passed away.

You just never know who your spiritual teachers may be.

T

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST,God
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 10:42 PM

Rabindranath Tagore was and is an inspired poet. And Teresa's analogy could indeed by applied to many things, politics included.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 10:11 PM

Acually Teresa, your analogy works perfectly if you change the word 'Music' to 'Politics'... ;-)

Robin

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST,freda
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 06:59 PM

( Translated from: "Ungrateful Sorrow (Grief)" by: Rabindranath Thakur (Tagore), in Lipika (means- Notes) : Collected Works, Vol-26, p. 105. )


At dawn shey(1) departed
My mind tried to console me -
" Everything is Maya(2)".
Angrily I replied:
"Here's this sewing box on the table,
that flower-pot on the terrace,
this monogrammed hand-fan on the bed---
all these are real."

My mind said: "Yet, think again."
I rejoined: " You better stop.
Look at this storybook,
the hairpin halfway amongst its leaves,
signaling the rest is unread;
if all these things are "Maya",
then why should "shey" be more unreal?"

My mind becomes silent.
A friend arrived and says:
"That which is good is real
it is never non-existent;
entire world preserves and cherishes it its chest
like a precious jewel in a necklace."

I replied in anger: "How do you know?
Is a body not good? Where did that body go?"

Like a small boy in a rage hitting his mother,
I began to strike at everything in this world
that gave me shelter.
And I screamed:" The world is treacherous."

Suddenly, I was startled.
It seemed like someone admonished me :" You- ungrateful ! "

I looked at the crescent moon
hidden behind the tamarisk tree outside my window.
As if the dear departed one is smiling
and playing hide-and-seek with me.

From the depth of darkness punctuated by scattered stars
came a rebuke: "when I let you grasp me you call it an deception,
and yet when I remain concealed,
why do you hold on to your faith in me with such conviction?"



(1): "Shey" in Bengali can mean either he or she.
(2): "Maya" meaning Unreal.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST,God
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 05:31 PM

You're on a good track there, Teresa.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Teresa
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 05:27 PM

Ok, I suppose i'd better be something other than a prankster on this thread.

I have my own personal beliefs. I am an agnostic: I believe there's some kind of intelligence at play here, making all this wonder and craziness happen. However, I would not impose those beliefs on anyone else.

Also, I don't think science is needed to "prove" its existence, although that would be fun and wonderful if it happened.

Just suppose that there were folk who were indifferent to music, and had to find a way to "analyze" its effects on others who believe in music's power to change moods, inspire creativity, etc. That would not change music's affects on those who get enjoyment from it.

Well, awkward analogy, maybe, but that's my take.

T

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Once Famous
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 05:25 PM

Little Hawk, my rabbi is a very wise man!

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Teresa
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 05:18 PM

Ha ha ha ha ha! MG, the only other place I would have heard that statement is on the CBC!

T

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 05:16 PM

Boy, talk about prejudice, Martin. :-) I think your rabbi is wallowing in the depths of spiritual obscurity, eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 04:59 PM

Absolutely! I believe in the existence of George W. Bush and have conclusive proof of it. Does that mean that I have faith in him? :-) Well...nope!

Satanists believe in God, but reserve their faith for Satan. There you go.

Lots of people believe in God, yet pay scant attention to God most of the time. Obviously, their faith is not very strong.

When faith is strong it produces results. When it isn't, not much happens. You can believe in something, yet have no faith in it at all....God included.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Once Famous
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 04:56 PM

Little Hawk, I asked my Rabbi if you were the Messiah and he said that the real messiah would never come from Canada.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Peace
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 04:54 PM

Faith is the result of experience. It would still be valuable, imo.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Cluin
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 04:49 PM

If there were conclusive proof of the existence of God, what would be the value of faith?

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 04:46 PM

Very appropriate. God is that which is always in a state of becoming.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Tannywheeler
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 01:30 PM

In an earlier posting LH speaks of God's comprehensiveness.

Several years ago a seminary student taught me something about the Hebrew God. One of the descriptive terms used to refer to IT (using the "real name" would invoke the Actual Presence and was DANGEROUS) comes down to us as the letter string YHWH, spoken as Jehovah or Yahweh. In Hebrew this is a form of the verb TO BE, and its closest translation is ALWAYS IN A STATE OF BECOMING. Its only use is as an euphemism for God. This is a continuing eureka moment for me. Gives real meaning to the first line of the hymn:
   "New every morning is the LOVE our waking and uprising prove..."

Tw

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: frogprince
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 01:02 PM

MAADD: Mothers against drunk drivers
DAM:    Mothers against Dyslexia

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 12:58 PM

It is not that Christianity is a plagiarist...it is that the most basic and essential spiritual teachings, such as the Golden Rule, can be found in all great spiritual traditions. Accordingly, every great spiritual teacher repeats them, often in virtually identical words. This is as normal and natural as for several different people to say: "It's dangerous to play with fire." or "Two plus two equals four." or "Like attracts like."

I don't call that plagiarism, I call it common sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Peace
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 02:20 AM

I'm a latent heterosexual and I am NOT offended.

DNA? National Dyslexics Association.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Teresa
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 02:16 AM

Robin ... as in "dylsexics of the world, untie!"

(Disclaimer:   not meaning to offend dylsexics, dyslexics, haberdashers, agnostics, or anyone else) ;)

T

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 Sep 04 - 02:02 AM

Really! you shouldn't insult haberdashers like that - Chinese or not!

Christianity is a great plagiarist.

"Do not do to anybody things that you do not want them to do to you."

Confucius
500 B.C.E.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 10:20 PM

Ah hah!!! And how do you know that I, yes I, am not "the REAL MESSIAH", Martin??? Are you gonna rely on some rabbi to tell you who the real messiah is or are you gonna keep an open mind on the matter and trust your own judgement? Well?

*(Chongo can be heard in the background saying, "Trust me, Hawk, you ain't the messiah. And Martin? The real one ain't gonna unite the world either! And it won't be his "failure" when he doesn't...it'll be human failure. What kinda saps are you guys, anyway? You're both crazier than a Chinese haberdasher!")

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Once Famous
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 09:32 PM

I never said that I do not believe in God but I say it did not happen even once Guest Martian. Jesus had a human father like you and like me. Immaculate conception is probably the greatest superstition that ever lived among mankind.

I am not going to even say that Jesus was not a good man, for I believe he was, but I really do not need him at all to get to God himself.

I accept no substitutes, no man or alleged prophet.

The real Messiah is yet to come. This current one does not have all of the world united and is failing miserably.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Teresa
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 06:19 PM

What is an agnostic, dyslexic insomniac?

Someone who lies awake all night, wondering if there really is a Dog.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST,Martian Gibbon
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 06:17 PM

Martin Gibson
"Women don't get pregnant without sexual intercourse"
Correct, it only happened the once.
"Jesus is not the son of God"
He/She is
"Jesus was a man, nothing more, nothing less"
Agreed

Sometimes I believe, sometimes I don't. But just sometimes I have this little nagging doubt, and that's because I was taught as a young child to believe in God. So I ask myself this question: Had I been raised in a secluded society where nobody believed in God or had ever heard of religion, would I, by my own experiences and philosophy, have come to believe in the existence of God? The answer is, I believe, no. I would have no reason to. The next question I ask myself is: Having been raised in total ignorance of any religion or God, when I die, would I go to heaven? The answer to that, I think, is yes. If there is a God, why should He prevent me from going to heaven (providing I had led a decent life of course) just because no one had told me about it? Not my fault is it. If He refused me heaven that presumably means I would go to hell (I don't know of any in between place) and I would consider that to be grossly unfair. And God is just! so I would go to heaven. So, on appeal, He lets me in. Just as He does all those people who attend church on a regular basis, pray, worship, donate money to the church, etc etc. Bet they wouldn't think it fair!
Is there a court of appeal for admission to heaven?

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 06:00 PM

And what makes you think that ordinary conception is not immaculate, Martin? Or that the term "immaculate conception" may not refer to a spiritual aspect of the conception rather than a physical one? Or that any human being might be termed "son of God" or "daughter of God", therefore Jesus' title may be getting misinterpreted by certain exclusive-minded people to mean something other than what it was intended to mean.

I assert to you, Martin, that EVERY living human being is the son or daughter of God...and that this is part of Jesus' actual message. So you're on good ground there calling him an ordinary man...but he had an extraordinary degree of awareness of what he was. That's something most ordinary men do not have.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Once Famous
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 05:52 PM

OK, Guest Martian Gibbon:

Minor point? Women don't get pregnant without sexual intercourse. At least not 2000 years ago.

Jesus is not the son of God. To this day, people are still trying to figure out who Mary was fooling around with.

Jesus was a man, nothing more, nothing less.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 04:42 PM

Uh-huh. People always wonder, "What was there before the Creation?" That is something that one who is part of the creation can't really expect to ever have an answer to. It would be like one teeny little digital man ("Tacitus") in a computer game like Ages of Empire asking another teeny little digital man ("Marcus"), "What was there before our world, Marcus?" Good luck finding the answer, because the only place they can look for it is inside the game! (and they are not going to find the answer to their question inside the game)

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Peace
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 04:35 PM

. . . and Creator.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 04:31 PM

I have difficulty relating to that 'sketch' of God in general terms. :-) It's far too narrow a viewpoint. In fact, it sounds exclusively traditional Christian to me.

I'll give you a broad sketch of God: God is energy, consciousness, existence, being, awareness, love, and life.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: GUEST,Martian Gibbon
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 04:21 PM

In order to continue on a sensible footing, let's outline a 'sketch' of God that we can all relate to in general terms. This God created the universe, His son, Jesus, was born in Bethlehem, the mother of Jesus was Mary. God and Jesus both performed miracles. Jesus died on the cross. God is in heaven.

I won't add more to this definition because the more I define God the more chance there is that we will disagree on some minor point or other. The idea is to simply agree on a very broad definition in order that you all be of the same mind when you talk about 'God', otherwise you will be on the roundabout again.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 04:05 PM

It's not about winning. You don't make spiritual progress by getting the "right answers" from someone else or by proving something to anyone...you make it by asking the right questions, and looking within yourself for the answers. This conversation has stimulated various people to give some thought to the matter, and that in itself is enough justification for having a conversation.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Once Famous
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 01:17 PM

Really, what did this thread prove? Has anyone really changed their opinion since post#1 by the guest who thinks he has the right to portray God. George Burns has already claimed that role. But that was entertainment, not soul searching on the Internet.

You either carry God in your heart and soul or you don't.

You either have faith in a supreme being and turn inwards toward Him (yes, ladies, Him) or you don't.

Many find God, many lose God.

Anyone keeping score who's winning?

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Eric the Streetsinger
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 01:09 PM

"George Bush's idea of God is as out of whack as Osama Bin Laden's idea of God. That is not a reflection on God in the least. It's a reflection on Bush and Osama."

George Bush's real idea of God is that he's a nice, fanciful idea,
and as such a useful tool to bamboozle a significant portion of the
American voting public into reelecting him. He picked this tool
very carefully. The segment of US Christians he's aiming at are
already half-bamboozled, by the Religious Right, which does their
thinking for them.
The frightening thing about Bush's "cosmology" is that I also think
he sees the book of Revelations as a charming myth, and a useful tool.
Why else pick a fight in the Middle East?

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: freda underhill
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 08:12 AM

and so it all boils down to.....










post number 200!

or number 201........................

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 01:13 AM

post number 200!

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Peace
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 12:52 AM

My reference to God as a masculine entity is not from that particular conviction; rather, it's from the lack of an English pronoun other than 'it' that encompasses both 'sexes'.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 12:33 AM

Male and female and neither one of those all at the same time is the answer. Human and not. Here and there and everywhere. Your version and mine. Define existence itself and you will get reasonably close to defining God.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Kaleea
Date: 19 Sep 04 - 12:15 AM

God? Him? Aren't male & female earthly human concepts? If God is all knowing all seeing all omnipotent, God is either both female AND male OR neither. Hmmmmmm.   As for killing babies, whom or possibly what shoots the gun/smothers/drowns/etc? Humans? Perhaps God is neutral and we are here to learn how to better ourselves & others?

If God is a male, then obviously, he is the gorgeous hunka hunka burning love of a guy I once met from Greece.

If God is female, she is shaking her head & finger at us & patiently waiting till we learn our lesson--if we ever learn.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: freda underhill
Date: 18 Sep 04 - 11:24 PM

no, there is no god, there is nothing. absolutely nothing.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Peace
Date: 18 Sep 04 - 11:04 PM

And good philosophers at that, LH, both of you guys.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Sep 04 - 11:01 PM

I also am a philosopher, Cruiser. And you're right that Bill D is one. I like and respect his philosophical nature.

Subject: RE: BS: Is there a god or not?
From: Cruiser
Date: 18 Sep 04 - 10:43 PM

Thanks Bill D for that link (it always helps to have a philosopher around Mudcat). I could not recall the term assigned to the belief Georgiansilver stated. Many of the good, fine Christians I know have that same belief and it never seemed rational to me.