BS: An Easter Question

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Mar 16 - 11:38 AM

Jesus' tricks.
Most were just healing people.

The water into wine was not for an audience.
It was to save the host's humiliation and so was secret at the time.

Loaves and fishes. Wherever they came from the folk were fed in a remote place.

Walking on water. Again no audience but his disciples, who believed in Him anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: Senoufou
Date: 30 Mar 16 - 08:26 AM

Doug, being so old as to be almost senile, it's quite probable that I forgot to look to see if I was wearing any clothes. I have been known to go out in the car wearing my slippers.

Regarding the Sanctuary Knocker on the great west door of Durham cathedral, and its pagan style, our cathedral in Norwich has loads of green man bosses around the cloisters and above the nave. I really love the green man, and have several representations of him around our home. In Norfolk (and I'm sure elsewhere) straw dollies representing a John Barleycorn type of being are used to decorate churches during harvest festivals. And you've only got to think of Hallowe'en and all its trappings to realise that the pagan is intertwined with the Christian in lots of ways.

I wonder if Dynamo (the excellent magician who does amazing things around the world) could be persuaded to try reproducing the water-into-wine thing? He walked on water on the Thames, so maybe he'd find it quite simple.

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Mar 16 - 08:12 AM

Placing the jesus miracles in historical / cultural context...

If I was a proper academic researcher, I'd be seeking documented records of the nature of the bible land entertainment industry before and during the roman occupation....

Were there known popular entertainers, and did they include travelling conjures, hypnotists, and clairvoyants amongst their ranks...???

Also any crossover between 'magicians and their accomplices, and criminal gangs of fraudulent 'tricksters'...

Finding all this out makes sense to me....

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Mar 16 - 08:02 AM

"It could be done."
Probably end up with water being turned into -- water, if my memory of Tommy Cooper serves me right!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Mar 16 - 07:24 AM

It could be done.

Just like that...

:D tG

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Mar 16 - 07:17 AM

Hmmmm.. a religion founded on Tommy Cooper...??? now you're talking... 😜

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Mar 16 - 07:07 AM

Jesus had an audience of suckers who wanted to believe. A stage magician is confronted by a bunch of sceptics who are looking for him to betray his secrets, though secretly they hope he won't. Not even if he's Tommy Cooper.

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Mar 16 - 06:54 AM

..... what I was going to post was...

It'd make an interesting bank holiday TV special to challenge leading celebrity magicians
to do the Jesus miracles in a live broadcast.
Ideally using only the materials and technology available in that region 2000 years ago...

Though I'd be surprised if a program like this hasn't already been done by the likes of Mythbusters...???

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 30 Mar 16 - 06:54 AM

The miracle of Peckham episode of 'Only fools and horses' was on last night. Brilliant :-)

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 30 Mar 16 - 06:47 AM

I was just about to post when I noticed something wrong with my 'name' in the 'From: box'

It said "punkpeoplerocker" !!???

Then I noticed a little balloon at the top of my browser page saying something to the effect that

"This page has been translated"...?????

what ?? why ??? by who ???? mankind or gods ????

It's a MIRACLE....!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Mar 16 - 06:34 AM

"What I find most fascinating is that adherents to the major religions also often have underlying, more primitive beliefs in magical events and beings."

There's an almost irresistible inclination to explain unexplained things by resorting to belief in magic. It appeals to the romance in the soul, a delicious need to feel slightly scared (as you do when watching a horror movie), and, somewhat more depressingly, it's an intellectual get-out from having to do the hard work of looking for what's really true.

I was once hoisted, unwillingly, on to a stage by a magician who needed a stooge, having been vociferously "volunteered" by my mischievous in-laws. In the half hour I was up there, I watched him like a hawk close up, but I failed to rumble a single trick. At one point he borrowed my watch, which he put into a pair of tights which he then whirled around in the air, periodically smashing the end with my watch inside down on the stage. He then returned my watch to me, totally unscathed. But did I go backstage afterwards to bow down in awe of his supernatural powers? No, I did not. He and I, and the rest of the audience, were co-conspirators in his sorcery, which, of course, had a perfectly normal explanation that we were not going to seek and he was not going to give. Spot the similarity with religious belief in the supernatural. The difference being that he wasn't going to claim to be a latter-day Jesus and we weren't going to think that his "magic" was anything other then skilful trickery.

The real magic is that the world and the universe are full of wonderful, mind-blowing phenomena, life on earth being just one, amazing in its diversity, its sheer complexity and, in whatever way you want to interpret the word, its beauty. But the most amazing thing of all is that it can all be explained by the ordinary laws of nature. There has never been a single example of a phenomenon that has needed any supernatural gloss put on it, except for the fake ones such as apparitions of virgins and ghostly hauntings, promoted by dishonest people with some advantage to gain. The joy of living is to keep looking for what is really true, not settling for dismal and childish superstitions that have been invented for no other reason but to shackle our minds, control us and stunt our intellects. If there really was a God, he'd hate that.

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: Raggytash
Date: 30 Mar 16 - 06:10 AM

I'm surprised that people haven't taken up the notion that the church of England stole many churches and cathedrals from the catholics.

I'm also surprised that the catholics haven't tried to get the best one's back.

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 30 Mar 16 - 06:04 AM

Hello all. I've been resurrected from a 'defunct' Eliza and come back as a member - Senoufou!

When you were resurrected, did you notice if you were you wearing any clothes?; or, at least, different ones than before? You should be in the position to answer the Easter Question from personal experience. :-)

DC

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 30 Mar 16 - 05:45 AM

Talking of Sicily, Jim, one of the nicest places we went to was the tiny church just outside Taormina, Chiesa Madonna della Rocca (reached via an energetic walk up hundreds of steps from the town, used to justify the giant ice cream you've just eaten). It looks like nothing much from the outside, just an unassuming little entrance built into the hillside. Plenty of the usual Catholic paraphernalia inside, as ever, but not too distasteful for a change. Parts of the ceiling and walls are actually the rock face and it's a haven of peace and quiet and coolness out of the sun. Generally speaking, we found the Catholic churches in that part of Sicily to be charmless places full of scary side chapels, ugly altars and glowering statues of no artistic merit, designed to subdue, I'd say. I haven't been to the Monreale one, but we'll be back there soon. We never pass up the opportunity of looking round any church that's open.

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: Raggytash
Date: 30 Mar 16 - 05:40 AM

It's a bit strange that the Sanctuary Knocker is seemingly so Pagan in design. But there you go, the church has never been backward when it comes to pinching other faiths bits and piece, Easter for example.

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: Senoufou
Date: 30 Mar 16 - 05:34 AM

Hahaha Doug! Joseph of Aremethea (spelling?) may have put some clothes, a toothbrush and a pair of sandals in a little box labelled 'for later use by JC' in a corner of the tomb when he completed it. Good idea!

I too find it odd that the Romans didn't record Jesus' conviction and execution. Granted there were numerous anti-Roman rebels going about in those times, but none who healed the sick and performed miracles. And Pontius Pilate himself washing his hands in front of the crowds tells us that Jesus was rather important. The Romans were great ones for documentation, so it is strange there's nothing about it in their records. Also, once rumours began that Jesus wasn't dead after all, you'd have thought the Romans would have been livid that the execution hadn't been correctly carried out, and have carried out exhaustive investigations.

I did a short course quite recently on Cathedral Architecture in UK and Europe; completely fascinating. I know Durham Cathedral well. (love the Sanctuary Knocker) I've also visited several huge mosques abroad, and they can be stunningly beautiful (the Blue Mosque in Istanbul, and the Great Mosque at Kairouan in Tunisia for example) But I think these things tend to limit God to a building or place, whereas to me, he's everywhere. Like Martini ("any time any place anywhere...")
I reckon God gets a bit fed up with me, as I'm always questioning things, and getting on his nerves about suffering. I'm not as reverend as perhaps I should be. I once considered becoming a C of E nun; one of my friends nearly died laughing. She threatened to tell the Mother Superior all about me. I made many retreats but in the end, I chose the world rather than a convent. I've never regretted that.

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 30 Mar 16 - 04:36 AM

100.

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 30 Mar 16 - 03:59 AM

Looking at Joe's photo of the Holy Family taken in the gift shop at the shrine in Fatima, Joseph is shown standing next to the infant Jesus holding a crucifix. If he had the foresight to recognise the significance of such a symbol some thirty-odd years before the event, it wouldn't have been difficult to arrange for a spare change of clothes to be left in the tomb, knowing that they would be used eventually.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: Raggytash
Date: 30 Mar 16 - 03:59 AM

I have had a love of architecture since my schooldays when we studied English Architecture in our art classes. I have visited wonderful buildings my favourite being Durham Cathedral which is magnificent. Certainly a sure way of controlling the peasantry.

However the one place where I felt the builders had done a superb job of creating a place of worship was the Italian Chapel on the Orkney Isles. A simple reconstruction of a Nissan Hut with all metal work forged from old corned beef tins. I recommend a visit to it if you ever get the opportunity.

Italian Chapel

I am sad to see there is now a charge to visit, there wasn't 40 years ago although I gladly made a contribution to it's upkeep. The story behind the building is a testament to the men's faith even though I don't believe in it myself.

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 30 Mar 16 - 03:35 AM

I concur with what has been said about Knock - probably the most soulless place we have ever been in crammed full of commercial tat.
In contrast, the folk-religious sites or those that have fallen into disuse are usually well are well worth a visit,
We've been on several guided trips around The Burren, a dozen or so miles North of here, to visit the Holy Wells and ruined churches - on a good day you wouldn't want to be anywhere else, but to my atheist's view, they are monuments of man's creation - nothing to do with spirits and superstition.
We're lucky enough to be able to visit these places all the year round when the visitors have gone home and the commericalism has been put to bed for the winter.
We've always made a point of visiting religious sites on our numerous trips abroad, from the Egyptian temples built by slave labour to the monasteries of Meteora in Greece built by labourers and monks hauling building material up the hills in baskets - all testimonies to man art and artisan skills.
The fact that they were built to worship something that I believe does not exist is immaterial.
I have to say that we were often struck by the poor taste of the established church - the glut of wealth of the Vatican was like being presented with many dozens of dishes of exquisite food and having to eat it all in one sitting - at first impressive, but totally joyless and, in a way, artless.
Monreale Cathedral in Sicily was probably one of the most exquisitely beautiful large buildings we were ever in, every inch of the walls covered with beautiful images, even the alcoves of the windows - all hideously marred by a giant neon cross stuck right in the centre of the building, which, to me, sums up the poor taste I am referring to.
I often came away from these places with a feeling of an organisation which is more concerned with over-impressing and imposing rather than giving praise to their god.
Still - some of the buildings are certainly well worth a visit - if you forget what they represent.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: Senoufou
Date: 30 Mar 16 - 03:20 AM

Hello all. I've been resurrected from a 'defunct' Eliza and come back as a member - Senoufou!

I've been to a local Norfolk shrine at Walsingham, and found it very tacky and contrived. Not just the plastic tat on sale, but the whole place was a bit 'Disney Does Jesus'. Not my thing I'm afraid. I felt much closer to God sitting on a straw bale beside a newly-ploughed field, with my feet on the good earth and a lark singing overhead. (we still have many of those here, although they're getting scarce elsewhere) The peace was so moving I found tears in my eyes. But then, I've always felt at home in the quiet countryside. (That place is called Stratton Strawless, which is a lie as they seem to have plenty of straw!)

Animism in W Africa is alive and well, and consists of a belief in magic and wichcraft (which I don't subscribe to) but they also see the supernatural in nature (sacred trees, birds with extra powers, a small much-revered stream which can heal etc) I've often wondered if way back in prehistoric times there's a link somewhere with the Celtic peoples. I've always felt at home there too.

What I find most fascinating is that adherents to the major religions also often have underlying, more primitive beliefs in magical events and beings.The Irish (I'm half Irish) have leprechauns and the fairies, people cross their fingers for luck, even my husband (a Muslim) has an abject terror of marabous (witchdoctors). There's more to our religious psyche than meets the eye!

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Mar 16 - 02:12 AM

Raggy, I've made two trips to Ireland, both with church groups. I went to Knock on the first trip, and I wasn't impressed. There was a "basilica" that looked like a football stadium, with the bleacher seats divided into different sections for each county. There were basins outside with faucets for holy water. In downtown Knock, there was an outdoor marketplace with all sorts of religious mementos, mostly made in Taiwan. Tacky, tacky, tacky. I did find some good songbooks at a store in downtown Knock, though.
We had Mass in the glass chapel that was built onto the back of the Knock parish church where the people had the apparition. I admit that was nice - the vision was very complex, with about 7 figures (including a lamb) that were seen on the outside back wall of the church. Inside the glass chapel were statues mounted on the outside wall of the church, depicting the vision.
But I didn't like Knock enough to ever want to go back. The second trip, I left the group during their day at Knock, and I went birdwatching on Galway Bay with Martin Ryan, and then to a pub sing and a barbecue at Martin's house. Beat the hell out of Knock.

The religious articles at Fatima were of far better quality, and there was an interesting quaintness to them. But the way they were displayed, side-by-side-by-side, but struck me as very funny - this one (click), especially.

I guess I might say that the original people who had the visions at Knock and at Fatima, may have been having a mystical experience. But when crowds of people gathered after hearing about the original visions, all of a sudden what was once a mystical experience, became a miracle. The doubt and confusion were gone then, replaced by hysteria and mindless certainty.

There's a strong element of folklore in all these shrines and apparitions and saints and such, and I find it all very interesting. My seminary education made me skeptical of all these things, and we seminarians and our professors made fun of a lot of this stuff. Over the years, I've collected preposterous religious stories and saint stories, because I found them so entertaining. The Miracle of Santarem (Portugal) is one of the most colorful and entertaining ones.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: EBarnacle
Date: 29 Mar 16 - 11:44 PM

It has been said that any sufficiently advanced technology will be seen as miracles by the indigenes.

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Mar 16 - 08:28 PM

I wouldn't dream of trying to disprove Jesus. There's not enough to go on whatever one's preference. But an assumption that he did exist, and that the stories about him are true enough to build a whole religion around, has been an assumption too far for two thousand years. You may also need to explain away the serious discrepancies about him in the gospels that were arbitrarily selected to be the ones to go into the New Testament, and why the other gospels have been kept under wraps. I wouldn't mind betting that the average Catholic hasn't even heard of them. Finally, how odd that you know about all those two-a-penny insurgents, yet there is no contemporary Roman account of the most important one. Just a couple of doubtful references by Josephus and one by Tacitus, writing decades after Jesus's supposed death. Hmm, that's something in common with those gospel writers' efforts, come to think of it. Talk about a house built on sand..

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: Joe Offer
Date: 29 Mar 16 - 07:20 PM

Steve Shaw says: Roman writers studiously ignored a man who was leading an insurrection and who was very publicly tortured and executed.

Such insurrectionists were a dime a dozen at the time, Steve. At times, the roads to towns in Palestine were lined with crucifixes bearing the bodies of crucified insurrectionists. Jesus was one of many. Trying to prove or disprove the existence of Jesus is futile. There were lots of Jewish insurrectionists who suffered undocumented crucifixions. Jesus was important only to those who loved him and followed him.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: keberoxu
Date: 29 Mar 16 - 06:48 PM

By the way, punkfolkrocker, regarding 28 March 2016 at 6:23 PM:

ROFLMBFAO !

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: frogprince
Date: 29 Mar 16 - 06:25 PM

" I am very embarrassed by my church's requirement of two miracles for sainthood"

I'm not sure what brought Joe's comment back to mind, but: I really think my wife should be eligible for sainthood; on more than two occasions, she has resurrected something when I felt like it might never rise again.

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Mar 16 - 04:37 PM

Holy prestidigitator, Batman!

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 29 Mar 16 - 04:24 PM

I once worked out how he could have done the water into wine magic trick with existing technology of his era...
He wouldn't have even needed a scantily clad assistant to divert the audiences eyes away from his hands...

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 29 Mar 16 - 04:11 PM

Strange then that contemporary Roman writers studiously ignored a man who was leading an insurrection and who was very publicly tortured and executed. Of course, the gospel writers, who were getting their new cult off the ground, were far more enthusiastic about promoting their man. Pity they couldn't agree on the details and, moreover, felt compelled to make up stories of how he worked magic.

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: Raggytash
Date: 29 Mar 16 - 07:14 AM

I've been to Knock ...................... I was appalled by what I saw there. A tacky, tawdry religious Blackpool is understating the position. The whole place was gross.

Now, I've also visited small local shrines that probably started as a well or spring in pagan times where people left offerings. These are frequently half hidden away, visited by local people, who leave all manner of items from a set of rosary beads and coins to playing cards and cigarette lighters.

I am moved by these places and I do respect the belief of the people who place a trust in such shrines.

Do I believe they have any power or do any good, well no, except form the mental wellbeing of the people who make offerings there. If that is the case then all well and good.

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: Llanfair
Date: 29 Mar 16 - 06:59 AM

This has been a fascinating thread, there's nothing like religious opinions to get discussions moving.
I believe that Jesus and the prophets really lived, and that their stories have guided and motivated people for centuries.
I also believe that the scriptures have been tweaked over time to be a form of social control. Translated by the powerful literate to keep the "great unwashed" in their place.
I follow the pagan path. I can see, feel and hear what mother earth is up to, and thank her for her bounty, as well as try to protect her from those who don't understand.
The original question? Just suppose........that Jesus wasn't dead when Joseph of Arimathea put him in his own personal tomb. took him out and tended his wounds in the dead of night. It explains all that happened afterwards, including the legends that Jesus was married to Mary Magdalene and went on to have children.
All stories, and we at Mudcat know how legends and stories, in many guises persist through the ages.

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: Stu
Date: 29 Mar 16 - 06:54 AM

"Stu, a constructive way to carry on a discussion is to present one's point of view, backed up by facts."

Fair enough and I apologise for the tone of my post, but I intended to address this point in the other thread but it had been closed when I returned to it. There is so much scaremongering about Muslim (and immigrant) integration in the UK it drives me crackers to see this being regurgitated. We have people of all colours and creeds from across in our small, northern market town and as my relatives come from Southall, now an almost exclusively Asian area I have first-hand knowledge of what a vibrant, colourful and exciting place it is, full of my polite and pleasant UK citizens.

This crap being peddled in the US (*cough*) about how dangerous it is in Europe is just that: total, scaremongering bullshit.

"Here are photos I took in the gift shop at the shrine in Fatima"

Now here's a thing, but I really love the tacky religious stuff like that shown in Joe's photos. I can't place what it is I like about it, but it appeals to me for some reason. I really like those busy little shrines you see in films set in Italy, situated at the bottom of stairwells and in homes with pictures of saints and offerings and often lit beautifully.

I've started to collect smaller statues and pictures, thinking I might make a shrine of my own (albeit with some non-religious additions).

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Mar 16 - 09:32 PM

In the early 1970s I looked just like the Joseph in that third photo. I was young and foolish enough then, but definitely not as naive as that cuckold.

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Mar 16 - 08:57 PM

Oh, Steve, you're going to lead me to damnation now. Here are photos I took in the gift shop at the shrine in Fatima:

(click)

I suppose I should be more compassionate toward those who take such things seriously, but I had a grand time taking tacky photos of tacky statues in tacky displays.

The Virgin Mary allegedly appeared to three teenagers in Fatima (note the Morish name) in the hills of northern Portugal, 6 times from May to October, 1917. The Virgin left the children with a decidedly anti-Communist message in three "secrets" that were released over the years until the time of Pope John Paul II. And the shrine was built, and stimulated the economy of the entire area. There's a procession every night, led by a soldier carrying a neon cross, and then there's the Blessed Sacrament about 2/3 of the way back in the procession, sheltered by a canopy held aloft by soldiers in uniform (did I mention that Portugal was fascist for a significant part of the 20th century?). Now, I have to admit that the grounds of the shrine are beautiful and that it means a lot to many people, but I was taken aback by the tackiness and the militarism.

Enjoy the photos.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Mar 16 - 06:57 PM

Please justify your remark that the thread has gone sour.

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Mar 16 - 06:23 PM

"When Threads Go Sour" - 40 minutes of hilarious clips of threads going off course, off the rails, and completely out of control.
Feel the agony, endure the anguish, Shudder and laugh at thrills and spills as fights break out.
40 minutes of the best sourness ever experienced. All sent in by you the viewers.
Only on Mudcat Channel. Membership required. Ask a parent or guardian for permission if under 55..... 😜

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: keberoxu
Date: 28 Mar 16 - 06:08 PM

....another thread gone sour.

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Mar 16 - 05:44 PM

Ah yes, got that slightly amiss. The dogma (just as ridiculous, actually) came four years earlier, when it was decreed that the Immaculate Conception was unassailable. A childish and unnecessary add-on if ever I saw one. But listen to that programme if possible. I didn't detect any official discouragement. They hadn't made their minds up.

Out of date, definitely, but I went to Lourdes in 1965. It was full of tacky little gift shops selling cheap plaster virgins and sacred hearts. But I did do the Stations. I think my mum still has the cheap virgin I bought for my gran for a franc or two. A little statue, I hasten to add. I've always tended towards shop-soiled rather than virgins myself.

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Mar 16 - 03:44 PM

Well, no, Steve, the cult of the Medjugorje "apparitions" is officially discouraged by the Catholic Church, despite wide acceptance by right-wingers (and yes, there are some conservatives even in the Vatican). Some of those who claim to have seen the "apparitions," have exploited their experience for commercial purposes.

Lourdes is an approved shrine, but the Catholic Church never has and never will include any apparitions in doctrine or infallible dogma, other than those described in the Bible. The doctrine is that the church will not define any post-biblical apparition as doctrine.

I really like Lourdes and I am quite ready to believe that Bernadette had some sort of mystical experience there; but Fatima and Knock make me nervous. Lourdes has a very healthy atmosphere - everybody there seems to be having a good time.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Mar 16 - 01:31 PM

"Since 1981, in a small village called Medjugorje, in Bosnia-Herzegovina, the Blessed Virgin Mary has been appearing and giving messages to the world..."

Sure. And I heard today on Radio 4 (appropriately enough, in a religious programme called Beyond Belief) that supposedly senior, serious men in the Vatican are sitting around conflabbing about whether to declare these alleged sightings genuine. You couldn't make it up, could you. Well somebody did! I suppose it's tradition to have these things. Isn't Lourdes "dogma" now? Blimey, what a club!

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Mar 16 - 12:07 PM

Stu, a constructive way to carry on a discussion is to present one's point of view, backed up by facts. If another person disagrees, then the appropriate response is for the second person to present the opposing point of view, again backed up by facts. This tends to clarify the discussion and lead to common ground, rather than polarizing it.

I observed extreme and ugly prejudice against Muslims in London; and I observed things that impressed me very positively, like female immigration officers at Heathrow wearing Islamic head coverings. In Paris, it seems that Muslims are far more segregated. I have read that there was legislation proposed in France to prohibit the wearing of religious clothing, but I can't recall whether it passed or not.

But that was the subject of another thread.

And I have nothing but disdain for Mr. Trump.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: Stu
Date: 28 Mar 16 - 10:20 AM

"Why can't they just give their own observations without having to refute somebody else?"

With the greases respect Joe, sometimes even your sage observations are patently wrong, as was the case with your Trumpish and dare I say ignorant observations on British Muslim integration. In such cases, it's legit to call out any of us who speak erroneously.


"And for that matter, is there anyone here who attacks and insults and derides non belief?"

Yup, but you can't see it.

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Mar 16 - 08:29 AM

I should add that although the practise is probably pagan in origin the church has taken steps to ensure they put their tuppence worth in.

Well Dressing Pictures

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: Raggytash
Date: 28 Mar 16 - 08:25 AM

""My own Catholic upbringing had little to do with ideology. It was growing up in an interesting, rich tradition that I enjoyed - and I received an exceptionally good (and critical) education in the practices of that tradition and the reasoning behind those practices."

In the UK we have many traditions, Morris Dancing, Cheese rolling, Plough Monday, Swan Upping, Well Dressing, Maypole Dancing and countless others. All these things have a long and rich history. They can be fascinating, educational and some times bloody great fun but I doubt if anyone who either attends or partakes in these rites believe the reasons that were given originally for the tradition to start.

Take Well Dressing for instance. Wells are garlanded with clay tablets on which pictures are created using flower petals. The Peak District in Derbyshire is probably the area were this is carried out most and it is a joy to behold but I doubt if most people believe to old traditional meaning which was this was done to ensure the purity of the water and give thanks for the same.

The ideology has gone, was needed really in the first place. People have grown up and found that the practices and rituals were totally unnecessary.

It could be an idea if religions were to do the same.

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Mar 16 - 07:33 AM

"I guess Mr. Shaw was conditioned as a child to see faith only as ideology, and that's too bad."

Guess again. As it happens, my Catholic upbringing was informal, even casual. Not a great start though. A Catholic primary school that wouldn't let us play with the Protestant kids from the school a hundred yards down School Street. Teachers and priests who told us that heaven contained only baptised Catholics. Much concentration on the classification of sins, the wrong kinds of confession and conscience and guilt by the bucketload. Springing people out of purgatory by saying three Hail Marys in an empty church if you chose the right day. Hellfire for eating meat on Fridays until a certain date, after which you could do what you liked. A secondary school that I was sent to, in spite of a bloody long bus journey, because it had a "good reputation," even though there was a perfectly good non-Catholic alternative just down the road. Perish the thought! When I look back, I realise now that the school was run by a bunch of bigoted, narrow-minded Salesian sad cases. But I was soon able to truant from Sunday Mass and go instead to the local dodgy back-street dive with all the other miscreants. Now that WAS an education. But there was no ostracism for slipping away from the faith, no fatwa. Not everyone forced into a religion at birth is so lucky.

" I see bringing kids up in a church as bringing them up in a tradition, a tradition that celebrates and explores birth, death, and life and the events of life according to a treasured tradition and set of rituals."

There is absolutely nothing special about Catholicism with regard to those things. I like tradition myself, but tradition needs to be questioned. We don't like traditional street dancers blacking up, even though the practice is rooted in tradition. We don't hang people in public or sacrifice goats, all honoured traditions. We ridicule people who declare that the woman's place is in the home, but a hundred years ago you'd have taken that to be a sage aphorism.

"My own Catholic upbringing had little to do with ideology. It was growing up in an interesting, rich tradition that I enjoyed - and I received an exceptionally good (and critical) education in the practices of that tradition and the reasoning behind those practices."

Education is giving people the skills to acquire knowledge and to seek what is really true. Your tradition is predicated on a tenet that is almost certainly false, that God exists. An "education" built on that foundation isn't an education at all. there are more appropriate words for it.

"A tradition that you choose as an adult because it's tailored to your needs, just doesn't feel authentic to me..."

If it's tailored to your needs, it isn't a tradition.

As for viewing miracles with scepticism, I don't. Miracles are simply not true. Scepticism means you are open to persuasion, given that further information may be provided. Well that doesn't speak well for your education. Miracles are a big lie. A proper education teaches you to reject such stupidity, along with ghosts, apparitions of the Virgin and telepathy. An education that let's you um and ahh about miracles is seriously flawed.

As for half a dozen people jumping around criticising you, well that's exactly what you do to me! Let's face it, Joe. A revival of those heresy laws would suit you very well!

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: DMcG
Date: 28 Mar 16 - 04:32 AM


I long for the day when I can simply say what I think, without a half-dozen people jumping around saying I'm wrong

I am a practicing Catholic, my eldest son is married to a Hindu, my second son is atheist, my daughter is recently back from Thailand where she attended (on the sidelines, as it were) in many Buddhist ceremonies and they commended her on how she showed them respect.

We can, and occasionally do, discuss religion. In every case it is genuinely seeking knowledge, whether it is Anoushka wanting to understand some of the symbolism in the Easter Vigil, or me wanting to ask about some aspect of a temple complex.

It is possible to talk about such things without insisting that you are the only one with the correct view and that everyone else must admit it.


Back to miracles. It is not that important to me, because at heart for me religion is all about how I behave, not some list of beliefs. Like Joe, I feel uncomfortable with asking for miracles today as part of nominating people for sainthood. I think it confuses the unexplained with the inexplicable, in many cases.

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 28 Mar 16 - 02:10 AM

We recorded "King of Kings" off the telly today.....

if the rest of this long movie is as good as the opening minutes of stirring theme music and visual spectacle
then I'm well happy to suspend disbelief for 2 and a half hours or more...

Though bloody annoyed about all these recent spoilers everywhere that tell how the story ends....

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: Joe Offer
Date: 28 Mar 16 - 01:41 AM

Well, EBarnacle, I don't know if that's the original question, either. But you're right to try to bring the discussion to a more constructive place. I don't know that I feel safe from attack if I answer your question, but I'll say what I think. I tend to view miracles with skepticism, and I'm a little embarrassed by them when they are claimed to happen within the context of my faith tradition. I am very embarrassed by my church's requirement of two miracles for sainthood, and I think a lot of good saints get forgotten because they've failed to perform the requisite miracles. And I think that there's almost always too much hysteria tied to miracles.

I do believe in mystical appearances, things that happen that are somewhere in the unknown realm between reality and spirituality. Such experiences can have a profound effect on those who have had them. I see them as a trip into the deeper meanings of what surrounds us. And yes, they can have great detail, like a person wearing the clothes of a gardener and the cloths being neatly folded. But what actually happened? I dunno, but I think this is a true account of what the witnesses experienced. I think that in mystical experiences, people are NOT sure what happened or if it really did happen, even though they may have perceived vivid detail. That sort of doubt and confusion doesn't exist in miracles, which is why I'm more at ease about believing in mystical experiences. I think that if you read the Easter stories very carefully and with an open mind, you will see that all the witnesses were full of doubt - but yet they were remarkably inspired, and that doubtful inspiration is what inspires my own faith.

I long for the day when I can simply say what I think, without a half-dozen people jumping around saying I'm wrong. Why can't they just give their own observations without having to refute somebody else?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: An Easter Question
From: EBarnacle
Date: 28 Mar 16 - 01:25 AM

It is possible to be religious or areligious without being hostile. This thread began with a semi tongue in cheek question and now people are shouting at each other. Let's get back to the question of miracles.