more session rudeness

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Doh
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 06:23 PM

Do CAF have a Myspace page? I can't seem to find one

Doh.

not cool as folk who it has been pointed out are not mentioned in the program at all

Doh.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 06:20 PM

The clones pick and choose what they allow to stand from Guest posters. So in reality, they control the spin.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Polite Guest
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 06:19 PM

Do CAF have a Myspace page? I can't seem to find one, other than a Cool As Folk music venue.

It would be good to hear them.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Phil J
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 06:17 PM

Charley did right to duck out of this one, it was a losing battle.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Phil J
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 06:15 PM

By the way,John Montague is listed in the program as running the session, not cool as folk who it has been pointed out are not mentioned in the program at all. Also, they have not told us as requested by Charley and Ruth, what exactly they were booked to do ie, lead the session, participate in the session or do a bit of playing in the middle of the field.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 06:12 PM

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Banjiman - PM
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 05:54 PM

"dunno, heated at times... passionate... silly... I think it's quite entertaining ;) lol"

I can think of better ways of getting my kicks personally than 'cat baiting.

Still takes all sorts I guess.

did you not see my first post then on this thread then? change the thread Banjiman you are not forced here, it's like a TV, just change the channel :D

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 06:09 PM

it's a group of musicians who enjoy playing tunes they all know or join in if they want or sit back if they want

Um, I think Charley's entire point was that it wasn't like that.

"...played perhaps their fastest, flashiest and 'show-offy' tunes to the total exclusion of everyone else ... did not enjoy my offering (wonder why?), making sly comments, making faces and then immediatly excluding me with two sets of tunes in their aforementioned arrogant style. Said tunes went on forever..."

Sounds like they were having a lot of fun - partly at Charley's expense - but it doesn't sound like much of a session for anyone else.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Def Shepard
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 06:07 PM

Acorn4 said, ""handbags at fifty paces"
oi, I prefer the heavier artillery, shoulder bag :-D

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 06:02 PM

Howard...

Each session is different, it has it's own personality brought about by the people in it! I didn't realise there were any rules per se in a session hence the added personality.

There isn't anyone person running the session, it's a group of people interacting in a session. This person didn't enjoy the interaction with them and felt he had to complain. End of story. unfortunately it didn't stop and people started attacking them cos they are young and they felt they had to "parent" them into behaving how they want their sessions to run... it doesn't work like that... it's a group of musicians who enjoy playing tunes they all know or join in if they want or sit back if they want.


Peace

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Acorn4
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 06:01 PM

It's not actually a depressing thread. It shows a lot of people care about what they do.

Even the "handbags at fifty paces" has been quite entertaining on this one.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Cat
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 06:01 PM

This thread is hilarious....

I am completely bemused as to why some people will sit (have sat?) here criticising people they have never met, because they offended someone else that they have never met in a place where they weren't in the first place.

Just a quick point -

One of the 'cool as folk brigade' did offer a 'sorry we didn't realise, I'll buy you a beer next time' response to the original post (much) earlier in the thread but nobody seemed to notice... I got the impression that everyone was too busy being outraged...

I'm also quite amused by all of these patronising posts about 'our music', 'music of the people' etc etc. My experience of people who say things like this is that they are usually people who have discovered folk music later on in life, understandably fall in love with it and are very precious about it. This is all great, but it feels completely different when you are born in to it... personally I've danced since I could walk and folk is such a completely ingrained part of my life there is simply no question of whether I'm going to 'carry it on' or not. I don't play and dance because I feel I have a responsibility, I do it because I can't imagine not doing it. And for the record, I don't think I have a responsibility - as previously stated, folk is 'music of the people', therefore following that logic it belongs to whoever is playing it in that moment. I haven't played the fiddle for months (for various reasons) but it doesn't mean I'm not a folkie any more... it's not what I do, it's who I am, and so it lives on. Having said that I do think it is important to preserve the old traditions, tunes, dances etc, but the whole beauty of folk music is that it is a changing entity - just because it belongs to everyone it doesn't mean everyone has to play it the same way.

Anyway.. I digress...

I also know the young rascals in question and I think they're lovely :) Don't judge people by what you read about them, by what someone else said, or better still - at all.

I would also like a free T shirt, and one for my baby ;o)

Love Cat xxx

P.S. I found a good quote today. Can't remember who it's by. It said 'Talking about music is like dancing about nuclear physics'.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Polite Guest
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 06:01 PM

From Ruth Archer: "you patronising old trout. Most of this lot have been going to festivals and playing this music since they were in nappies. They come from folky families. Why the hell should they listen to the advice of someone who discovered folk rock five minutes ago and considers herself the world authority on all things folk? Including festivals she's never visited and musicians she's never even seen or heard play? "


Not a clue who that's about, but I've seen the Oysters loads of times. I can't recommend them strongly enough, and their fans have to be the best in the folk world, fizzing! They're like fireworks!
Some of the warmest people I've had the pleasure of meeting in the folk world.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Peter Beta
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 06:00 PM

You're a nasty piece of work, Ruth.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 05:57 PM

"I haven't read the whole thread, but it seems to me there's been a misunderstanding, or at least a difference of opinion, about what "running a session" involves.

In my book, it means getting the ball rolling, attracting other musicians, and then giving everyone the chance to play. If there's a lull, it's your job to fill it until someone else is ready to start a tune.

It does not involve playing tune after tune, even if you are prepared to "let anyone" play with you."

No one yet has asked what they were actually ASKED to do. Were they asked to simply play, or to lead sessions? That would make quite a difference to the behaviour expected of them.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Banjiman
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 05:54 PM

"dunno, heated at times... passionate... silly... I think it's quite entertaining ;) lol"

I can think of better ways of getting my kicks personally than 'cat baiting.

Still takes all sorts I guess.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Polite Guest
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 05:53 PM

I'm enjoying it, Banjiman, but then, amongst other things, I'm listening to The Oysterband, so I'm a very happy bunny. ;-)

25 years without them, I have one helluva lot to catch up on. They are the most FABULOUS band!

And something else too, they care deeply about their fans. Always the sign of a great band that...and it keeps your fans with you for as long as you want to perform.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 05:51 PM

dunno, heated at times... passionate... silly... I think it's quite entertaining ;) lol

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Howard Jones
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 05:50 PM

I haven't read the whole thread, but it seems to me there's been a misunderstanding, or at least a difference of opinion, about what "running a session" involves.

In my book, it means getting the ball rolling, attracting other musicians, and then giving everyone the chance to play. If there's a lull, it's your job to fill it until someone else is ready to start a tune.

It does not involve playing tune after tune, even if you are prepared to "let anyone" play with you.

Sessions are complicated things, there are a lot of expectations and assumptions and unwritten rules, and it takes time and experience to learn how to read them and how to fit in. And yes, if you're running the session you can to some extent make the rules, but make sure everyone involved understands them and is prepared to go along with them.

But if you're in a session which is not to your liking, then either put up with it or move on.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Def Shepard
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 05:50 PM

Enjoying what you play, playing what you enjoy, and having a good time is really what it's all about. I know it is for me

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Banjiman
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 05:49 PM

This is one depressing thread.........

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 05:47 PM

"Therein lies the lesson of this thread."

no it's not, Lizzie. Becauselife is not, in fact, all about you.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 05:43 PM

By his own admission the guy is no new folkie on the block... this all came from a misunderstanding that Charley had about "open sessions" being advertised and only found one session that wasn't open enough for him.

Come on! this rubbish has been going on round the folk world for decades and you have chosen this point in your life to attack people younger than yourself for what ever hang up you've got, as you think that these talented young guys are responsible for someone who needs to be treated like "you have to walk on egg shells around them"!!!

Give it a rest now!

Just enjoy the music and the joy!

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Acorn4
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 05:41 PM

Is this the first time Perry Como has featured on a mudcat thread.

Re the Swingers' parties, there's that great line from the Cleverly Brothers song:-

"It's all sex and booze and women - what kind of life is that?"

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Barry Finn
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 05:37 PM

As you went to buy yourself a drink, a nod, a wink or even a hand gesture to he guy who felt unwelcomed may have been enough to get him seated. A friendly hand on the shoulder & a "thanks for showing up" as you passed him by 'on purpose', would have encourge him to play.

Your job is/was to see that you played well with others,,,,,,all the others!

and that all the others had fun playin "well" with you! It's everybody's sand pile!

That is your responsibility.

You love the music enough to play it well-----then it is your
responsibility to make sure that says well loved & doesn't dies by mistreatment it can die off easily enough on it's own, without the help of others!!!!

You love yourself, treat others well so they'll love you in return, that's doing yourself a favor, just do that much for your music.

Treat your music & my music the same way!

We love it when you young people come onboard & do it better than us, we then know we did "OUR JOB" well. We are well satisfitied when we hear young people playing better than us, we know that what we've done & loved all our lives will continue on & is in capable & loving hands.

You will never be a threat to us "older" players & singers, you are the kids we've loved & waited for all our adult lives, ever since we were the young'uns & you will at some point pass it on to your kids,,,,,,,,,,our grandchildren, we'll love watching them become even better players than you!


Barry

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Polite Guest
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 05:31 PM

From Ruth Archer:

"Oh PoliteGuestLizzieCornish, I wondered how long it would be before you stuck your oar in. Get over yourself - you've never even been to the Big Session. For someone who moans about the Folk Police, you can lay down the law when you want to. Pious and self-righteous much? If any of them was proclaimed to be the next Seth Lakeman, you'd be getting your post-menopausal knickers in a twist and drooling all over their melodeons (not recommended - it ruins the reeds). I recommend you stay away from The Ship during Folk Week, or you'll be coming over all queer..."




From me, to someone else:

"Never ever make anyone feel 'excluded' in the folk world. I've been there, done that, had it thrown at me in huge dollops. It's unpleasant, it hurts, it creates very bad feeling and...it can even risk damaging how someone feels about the music."

Therein lies the lesson of this thread.

I hope you are able to understand now young folkies, and I hope that you all go on to great things, with those words ringing in your ears. Never treat anyone like that, it's not what this world or this music is about.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 05:29 PM

Swingers parties are frequented by those who don't give a damn about others, love 'em and leave 'em, use 'em and abuse 'em. Give us yer keys, hey you'll do, any old body will suffice

Raar I'd hate to go to one of your Swinger parties!!!

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Stringsinger
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 05:28 PM

Whenever there is an exclusionary session, I immediately leave. It is antithetical to
the whole nature of folk music which is inclusionary and communal. These sessions are
doomed to failure because they will be dominated by egos which will eventually destroy
the session.

People (the real people) want to play and share music and entertain themselves in a group.
They are hungry for this kind of rich communication.

As the world becomes more sparse in its ability to consume, communal activities grow
and the usual way of entertainment changes. Spending money to see performers become
less of an option particularly when people realize they can entertain themselves as participants in a musical experience.

This is the future of folk music, its present and past.

Frank Hamilton

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 05:25 PM

"with your new found ideas, and let's see you and your pals working your way up through the festivals, with the right attitude!"

you patronising old trout. Most of this lot have been going to festivals and playing this music since they were in nappies. They come from folky families. Why the hell should they listen to the advice of someone who discovered folk rock five minutes ago and considers herself the world authority on all things folk? Including festivals she's never visited and musicians she's never even seen or heard play?

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Polite Guest
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 05:24 PM

From you, again.."I play a great deal of genres, both for pleasure and professionally. I fail to see how we as youngsters carry a responsibility for folk music."

Folk is different. It's the music of the people. It comes with a package, not just here, but in the US and Canada too, perhaps more so over there. It comes with a 'family' and when you come into that folk world, you become part of that 'family'. You don't have to come from the right background, or talk in the right accent, although there are always those who bring in such rules and regulations, but we learn to ignore them...You merely begin to let it seep into your soul. You find a support there, a willingness to help, to be friends, to include.

Never ever make anyone feel 'excluded' in the folk world. I've been there, done that, had it thrown at me in huge dollops. It's unpleasant, it hurts, it creates very bad feeling and...it can even risk damaging how someone feels about the music.

Always, ALWAYS **INCLUDE**   In the folk world, it is part of your job, part of your life. There are some in the older folk world who still need to learn that, so please do not think you are being judged on your age, merely the attitude.

I really do wish you and your pals a great future in folk music, I hope you have tremendous fun, and success too.

Good luck.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Houston_Diamond
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 05:23 PM

Wow polite guest :o

Punters?!? They are never looked down upon... dear me... that would be financial suicide.

As I understand it, folk (and all music) has a mutual benefit for the performer and audience... "usually taking from them, for your own advantage." is not how I see a punter, client or any trade agreement. It's an agreed advantage on both sides (unless you wish to give dodgy goods del boy!).

It appears you are attacking a group of young musicians because they don't conform to your behavioural protocols NOT because they play music to your folk 'Protocols' (cos you have to leave your personality behind if you play folk music).

Do as I suggested and do the polite thing and leave if you object to something (unless it's violence, then contact the authorities... that behaviour is not tolerated!)

Please leave these guys alone and just praise them for performing what they love... I mean... come-on you dont have to play what they play and they dont have to like what you play. You both have mutually realised that you dont enjoy each others thing. Be mature and leave it at that!!!

Polite boy/girl, STOP this responsibility bollocks! they have sat at home and rehearsed these tunes that's all the responsibility you can ask for!!!

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: PoppaGator
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 05:21 PM

I would certainly hope that MOST of you have learned from this experience and will interact more harmoniously next time around. The fact that most of the above exchanges have been good-humored gives us hope...

For a band, or even a group of loosely associated individual musicians, to be "booked" to "run an open session" is almost a contradiction in terms, a situation rife for misunderstanding. Are the hireliings supposed to play their own shared material as performers, or are they supposed to provide a venue and a context where random attendees can show up and feel welcomed to participate?

Acting as host/emcee is probably more difficult, or at least a less common skill, than performing. And I would think that the role of emcee would be much more effectively assigned to an experienced individual than to any group, and especially not to a group of players who are ready, willing and anxious to play the material that they have rehearsed together, and in so doing, to make other potential participants feel unwelcome. They might very well not mean to shut others out, but nevertheless they are very likely to create such an impression.

Also ~ if the "session," or "performance-masking-as-a-session" was indeed too held close to another stage/tent/venue, shame on the organizers! No one participating in or listening to either of the competing events needs to be subjected to excessive "sound bleed."

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 05:20 PM

Oh PoliteGuestLizzieCornish, I wondered how long it would be before you stuck your oar in. Get over yourself - you've never even been to the Big Session. For someone who moans about the Folk Police, you can lay down the law when you want to. Pious and self-righteous much? If any of them was proclaimed to be the next Seth Lakeman, you'd be getting your post-menopausal knickers in a twist and drooling all over their melodeons (not recommended - it ruins the reeds). I recommend you stay away from The Ship during Folk Week, or you'll be coming over all queer...

Coolasfolkbrigade, the Port Drinker says please bring more port next time. And she wants a free t-shirt.

Everyone is always moaning about there not being enough young people in folk. Well, these guys are some of the front line. They're young, and shit-hot talents. Before getting arsey about whether they fiulfilled their "brief" or not, why not ask them what they were actually asked to do? Whether they were asked to lead sessions, or simply play?

I have seen them on many occasions and have never seen them ridicule other players who want to join in. I did explain that, because they play together a lot, they have developed a kind of synergy. I have watched a dozen or so other musicians gradually join them at Towersey, or at Sidmouth, or at Warwick, and have no trouble at all. But they do play collectively, and instinctively. God knows we can't have that in folk.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Polite Guest
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 05:12 PM

From you:

"We didn't refuse to let anyone play. The original rant on which this thread is based stated that the guy in question walked out because he didn't enjoy our music. We never refuse to let anyone play with us..."

No, perhaps you didn't refuse, but from what we are hearing, the person concerned felt unwelcome. I wasn't there, so I don't know for sure, but there doesn't seem to be much "Hey, we're sorry if you felt that way, it was never intended!" going on.

It's not YOUR music, it belongs to all, particularly in sessions. He had as much right to feel able to join in, as you were having fun, playing. Read Barry's erudite post, it says it all. You perhaps need to simply brush up your skills in welcoming people. It means an awful lot to make eye contact, to have a smile given your way and a warm welcome extended. And it costs nothing.

We see folk the same way we see swingers partys... the more the merrier."

Ah well, that may explain a lot then. Swingers parties are frequented by those who don't give a damn about others, love 'em and leave 'em, use 'em and abuse 'em. Give us yer keys, hey you'll do, any old body will suffice"

Nope, that ain't folk me young shiner!

It ain't love either, but I'm sure you'll tell me it's fun.

I'll pass though, if you don't mind. I'd far rather be listening to my new Oysterband CD - 'Meet You There' It has far more sex in it than any Swingers Party!

And hey, one day, maybe I'll meet you there, down in the moshpit, where you'll find that all the ol' folkies can jump far higher than you and boogie on down with the best..

Remember, Oysters fans never grow old...they merely sparkle, ever brighter...

Now get your cheeky butt back out into the folk world, and set it on fire, with your new found ideas, and let's see you and your pals working your way up through the festivals, with the right attitude!

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,R2D2
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 05:07 PM

Too many primas, not enough donas.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: irishenglish
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 05:03 PM

Okay Cool as Folk Brigade, fair enough points. But no offense, you could have responded as you just did, way back at the beginning of this thread. Not that I mind a long thread, but why drag it out?

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: wysiwyg
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 05:02 PM

We never refuse to let anyone play with us.

This is IT, exactly. A session is not for people to come play with a band-- any band. It's for everyone who shows up to play. When the session "leaders" feel that it's an "us" and "the rest of you" thing, that's not quite what experienced session people want, or expect, and they will feel the difference.


Why can the young people not just fess up to having learned an interesting lesson, and why can the elders not let them have the space for that?

It all makes me never want to come to a UK session, for sure. If this is what people are thinking while at one-- no thanks!

~S~

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,R2D2
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 05:00 PM

So I guess my message of love fell on deaf ears. Regardless of age. O, sigh. And not one of you corrected the spelling of Kodac.

Magic, moments,
When two hearts are carin',
Magic, moments,
Memories we've been sharin'. . .
I'll never forget the moment we kissed,
The night of the hayride,
The way that we hugged to try to keep warm,
While takin' a sleigh ride.
Magic, moments,
Memories we've been sharin',
Magic, moments,
When two hearts are carin' . . .
Time can't erase the memory of,
These magic, moments,
Filled with love!
whistling . . .
The telephone call that tied up the line,
For hours and hours,
The Saturday dance, I got up the nerve,
To send you some flowers.
Magic, moments,
Memories we've been sharin',
Magic, moments,
When two hearts are carin' . . .
Time can't erase the memory of,
These magic, moments,
Filled with love!
The way that we cheered,
Whenever our team,
Was scoring a touchdown!
The time that the floor,
Fell out of my car,
When I put the clutch down!
The penny arcade,
The games that we played,
The fun and the prizes!
The Halloween hop,
When everyone came,
In funny disguises.
Magic, moments,
Filled with love!
whistling . . .

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Polite Guest
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 04:58 PM

From me:

"You are it's future, you are it's lifeblood, you therefore carry a huge responsibilty upon your shoulders."

From you:

Please elaborate on aforementioned responsibility. I play a great deal of genres, both for pleasure and professionally. I fail to see how we as youngsters carry a responsibility for folk music.

Well, the people before you have been carrying it for the past 40 years. If it's too much trouble for you to take that responsibility up, then stay in another genre.

If people enjoy any genre of music it will thrive. If support for a genre of music dies out the genre follows suit.

The music is only as good as those who perform it. If that performance comes with the wrong attitude, it will damage your performance.

The music I play with the musicians I'm priveleged to play with doesn't actually seem to be dying. If, as you seem to think, Polite Guest, I carry a responsibilty for singer/songwriters of the folk persuasion then I feel you are mistaken.

The music you play is NOT dying for the simple fact that it has been in the hands of many people who care deeply about it, for a very long time. You are merely part of the procession, carrying it on to your children, yet to be born, and to theirs.

If there is public support for any genre then It will never die. In my experience the music I play is supported by both punters and professionals, obviously I can't please everyone but neither can you, or indeed anyone.

If you regard your audience merely as 'punters' then you have no right to be in the folk world. 'Punters' are merely people to whom you sell something, usually taking from them, for your own advantage.
You will never please your audience if you look down upon them. ALWAYS look up to them, apart from those inconsiderate bastards who have no respect for you, of course.

Please don't be yet another person who tells me about young peoples responsibility to preserve folk music and then grumble when it's not how you did it X number of years ago. Traditions evolve just like everything else does.I don't force you to listen my music.

Trust me, there is no-one who understands what you say more. I have been hanged, drawn and quatered for loving folk music. I have been pillioried for wanting more and more young people to come into it. I do NOT want you coming into it being beige, bland and boring, but this music means a great deal, to many. By all means take it to new exciting places, liven it up, liven up the way it is delivered, make it your own, but always remember that it belongs to others too, and it means a huge amount to them.

The music is OURS, not yours, not mine.

OURS..

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,dizzyLisa
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 04:58 PM

Well said Acorn 4
CL

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Acorn4
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 04:47 PM

Rudeness in young performers is often just down to a bit of a lack of thought and over-enthusiasm. I was a complete ar****le at their age.

I find rudeness in a very small minority of older folkies harder to take because they should know better.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Cool As Folk Brigade
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 04:47 PM

"if you had wanted to join in this session, a session run by older people, who refused to let you play? You'd have been angry I'd guess"

We didn't refuse to let anyone play. The original rant on which this thread is based stated that the guy in question walked out because he didn't enjoy our music. We never refuse to let anyone play with us. We see folk the same way we see swingers partys... the more the merrier.

"You are it's future, you are it's lifeblood, you therefore carry a huge responsibilty upon your shoulders."

Please elaborate on aforementioned responsibility. I play a great deal of genres, both for pleasure and professionally. I fail to see how we as youngsters carry a responsibility for folk music. If people enjoy any genre of music it will thrive. If support for a genre of music dies out the genre follows suit. The music I play with the musicians I'm priveleged to play with doesn't actually seem to be dying. If, as you seem to think, Polite Guest, I carry a responsibilty for singer/songwriters of the folk persuasion then I feel you are mistaken.

If there is public support for any genre then It will never die. In my experience the music I play is supported by both punters and professionals, obviously I can't please everyone but neither can you, or indeed anyone.

Please don't be yet another person who tells me about young peoples responsibility to preserve folk music and then grumble when it's not how you did it X number of years ago. Traditions evolve just like everything else does.I don't force you to listen my music.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Polite Guest
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 04:45 PM

Blimey! You were fast! ;-)

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Polite Guest
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 04:44 PM

Great post, Barry.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Barry Finn
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 04:44 PM

This is a fast moving thread

Barry

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Barry Finn
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 04:42 PM

If 'they' were invited & booked to play then part of the job discription (for running an 'open' session) is "to invite" all-warmly, "to accomodate" 'all' other musicians, to make the session "as friendly" to all who venture within listening range (even the onlooking-non playing public), to be aware of the groups level of musicianship & try to focus in on common material &/or try to hit on tunes that at the very least can include & accomodate the style & repertoire. If you can't then ask those sitting by waiting to showcase what they do. Ask those not able to jump in to lead (& then try to back them too). Ask them questions, suss or feel them out, it's part of making it a friendly/inviting seesion. If you know a musician who came a distance speak up to them & get them to lead a few. Make them all feel as if they'd love to come back. It's part of the session leader(s) job to bring out the best of those sitting in & to bring all to the table. It sounds to me that a poor job was done here.

OK. I don't lead sessions, I don't because I wouldn't do a good job at it. I don't have that kind of out-going personality to include all, I don't have a "talk 'em up" nature, I'm not a good enough musician to bring along a very good musician to do their best & have them enjoy themselves being brought along for the ride & then get to thank me for the lift, I wouldn't recognize that something different or special in someone's else's playing to the point where I could appropriately comment/encourage/showcase their playing by asking them for a solo or asking them for a special spot in the session, I do have the sensitivity, to see if someone who has an instrument in their hand isn't opening their case to take it out & play it, I do have the awareness to note that a musician isn't sitting down to play & is looking forlorn or in wonderment. I do note the face worn by the on-lookers & woder if they're smiling & having a good time, it they're tapping their fett or fongers, if they're humming along, if they're applauding. I try never (if it's a session I'm regular to) to let a musician walk out the door if they haven't sat in, if it's a lack of chair (& that's the only good reason, aside from them being beginners), they can have mine. I also try to note when a musician comes in & scopes out or sizes up the session & is making up their mind on weither or not to join, watch, listen or go. Sometimes a great musician doesn't want to sit in with those that aren't as good, they get tired of playing with us "lessers". They too sometimes get tired of not being able to play with their "great" peers (they are so few & far between sometimes). Grab them before they walk out & you miss out on what they have to offer. They are usually older types, they don't let you know how good they are, usually they're a bit humble (at least in my experience). If you get free drinks as a session leader get them a drink, as them to play a couple before to go.

It's your job, it takes time to know your job & do it well, learn how to do your job. Your job is not to play well, it's to play well with others & see that others have fun playing with you.

When I 1st started playing seesions it was in the Boston area & I had
the great fortune to start out at the Old Village Coach House back in the mid 70's. That session was a hold over & extention from the great Dudley Street Sessions of the 40"s & 50's. Regluars were greats in their fields, Paddy Cronin, Larry Renyolds, Seamus Connelly, Mance Grady, Joe Durain, Johnny Cuningham, blah, blah,blah. All the best acts stopped in on their way through town. At all times, even up to this present day musicians of all levels,
styles, nationalities, colors, religions, backgrounds were wecolmed warmly & encouraged to play along, from the newest to the oldest (our 90 something old bones player, a regular, just pasted away), from the best to the worst (this takes sensitivity, here you need people skills). I remember Seamus Connelly telling me to stop playing softely under the table & start playing so's I could be heard & inviting me to sing. If he had been harsh on a beginner like me back then I would have died & never continued playing or singing in seesions. These people had such finesse when it came to leading sessions that it was like watching an art form.

So it doesn't matter a shit how fast you all can play or how good you can play or how much you'd like to "play with each other", what matters is that you do what you were invited to do or paid to do & that's to see that you all play "well" with each other & that everybody else has a good time doing that too!
If you can't do this things but want to continue leading sessions, find a right hand or even a right & a left hand who'll help you out with these things. If there's a core group of say 4 or 5 of you, discuss the type of session you'd like to lead, who has what skills that would help better the session for all, who's good at greeting strangers, who has the gift of gab, who has the awareness of what others are thinking & feeling about how they see the session, who's good at getting feedback from the other musicians, who's good at talking to the noddler or the hog about giving others a chance, who's good at telling someone that what they're doing isn't exceptable but making them feel like they'd love to come back all the more.

Barry

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Polite Guest
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 04:35 PM

Def Shephard:

"Oh dear, someone didn't take their happy pill *sigh*
LIGHTEN UP fer goodnessakes!!!!"

Sure, I took my happy pill, what I didn't take is my 'couldn't give a damn about anyone else' pill. Sounds as if you may have taken one too many. Why doesn't that surprise me?

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Def Shepard
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 04:34 PM

Ummm...there are many of "older" types who no problem with age at all, the only criteria is the quality and energy of the music played.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: GUEST,Chunk
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 04:29 PM

Firstly, BIG Mick - Who the fuck boasts about Toronto? Nashville, yeah, but Toronto? Shut the fuck up.

Secondly, to all the people saying that maybe The "Cool As Folk" Brigade where threatened by the more "mature" player, because he would possibly show them up is, hmmm how to put this?.....

BULLSHIT!

I have the fortune of knowing said insolent rapscallions and the fact is that most of them can probably play fucking circles round you. Not because of there "Paganini type modulations" (who uses Paganini as an insult?), but because they are solid players and have, due to a glut of folkie parentage, been playing since their respective instruments since were old enough to pick them up.

And yes, they sometimes get faster and go for it a bit. Maybe because they still have some enthusiasm for the music they play and don't use sessioning as some form point-scoring competition.

Lastly, the main reason you seem to have a problem with them is because they are young. Any group of gnarly old folkies at a session, if they hadn't let you in or had made you feel unconfident, you would have probably doffed your hat at their strength of character and admired their skill.

Just because you are not in the "Twentysomething" bracket anymore, don't get bitter about it. Its unbecoming and hypocritical.

p.s. I would like a free t-shirt.

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: TheSnail
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 04:25 PM

(*looks hard at the tuba player*)

Is that the one who played Jingle Bells every five minutes throughout the night at Towersey a couple of years back?

Subject: RE: more session rudeness
From: Def Shepard
Date: 16 Jun 08 - 04:25 PM

Oh dear, someone didn't take their happy pill *sigh*

LIGHTEN UP fer goodnessakes!!!!