BS: Brexit & other UK political topics

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Nov 20 - 03:05 PM

”But as I say, the right have this habit of forever saying "Let's have unity and let's have it by doing things totally our way."

First of all, I’m not ‘the Right’ Steve, I’m Centre-Left. And it’s the Left who are wanting it ‘totally their way’ judging by the evidence here. People like me are saying, “Stop fighting each other, find centre-ground, and DO YOUR JOB which, you Corbynistas seem to have forgotten, is to FIGHT THE TORY GOVERNMENT.

Party members don’t elect Governments, the voting public do that and, in 2019, the voting public told Corbyn resoundingly to Fuck Off. Anyone with an ounce of dignity and self-respect who had led the LP to its worst GE defeat in living memory - a defeat by the weakest Tory party led by the weakest Tory leader in living memory and with nothing to offer but a one-issue manifesto - would need no ‘gentle behind the scenes persuasion to retire’. Rather than hanging around shit-stirring he’d have been compelled by his own sense of shame to do it of his own volition the day after the election.

I repeat, as I’ve repeated many times - the Party is far, far bigger than any individual, including Corbyn, and members should get their intransigent heads around that unarguable fact, unite behind the current leader, who was democratically elected by those same members, stop wasting the votes of those of us who demonstrated our trust in Labour at the GE and who were failed disastrously, and start working to free the nation from this self-serving, shameless, shameful bunch of Tory rogues currently raping the United Kingdom.

Until that begins to happen, the LP exists for no reason other than to stimulate its members’ vulgar public display of political onanism.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Nov 20 - 02:55 PM

bonz - since of late you sem to be drifting further left in some of your posts.
Maybe time for you to aceopt it and join Labour.

There's not enough honest direct resorts to saying "fuck off!!!" in the party.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 19 Nov 20 - 02:47 PM

I would have told them to fuck off!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 19 Nov 20 - 01:22 PM

I left the Labour party in the late 80's. Our branch had selected a candidate to be our prospective MP after a hustings meeting. We were very happy with the way she, above the other candidates, had presented herself.

At our next branch meeting 4 guys arrived from Central office dressed in Crombie's and red scarfs and told us we couldn't have her as our candidate and we should now select another woman who we didn't know, had never met, had never spoken to and who as we found out had never even visited the town she was picked to represent.

We were disgusted at their attitude and several of us resigned on the night, and others resigned later.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Nov 20 - 01:07 PM

Who'l last longer as leader of their parties, boris or starmer...???

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 20 - 12:51 PM

But as I say, the right have this habit of forever saying "Let's have unity and let's have it by doing things totally our way." A party leadership that thinks that way will forever be the leadership of a split party. Realpolitik.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 19 Nov 20 - 11:38 AM

Great post SPB-Cooperator, thanks for that. Party before Personalities - the Golden Rule, understood perfectly by the Tories but not, apparently, by a substantial number of members of the Labour Party.

Get ready for permanent Tory rule.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 20 - 09:24 AM

Well in my view an injustice was done to Jeremy Corbyn when he was suspended. Of course, he provided ammunition when he spoke out so quickly in the terms he used, but I repeat: he did not deny antisemitism, he spoke out against antisemitism, he did not say that nothing should be done and what he said was miles away from hate speech. I'll tell you summat for nowt: all through the seventies I was, for my sins, a hard-left trade union activist in the East End of London at a time when trade unions were perceived, incorrectly of course, as having too much clout, to be feared (cheers, media). What I learned then was that if you put two lefties together in a room, there will soon be a split. What I also learned is that all the disingenuous pleading for unity came from the more right-wing faction, every time. And what they really meant, every time, was "drop the argument and do things our way." It doesn't and shouldn't work. It's unprincipled for a start. The right in the Labour Party, go as far back as you like, not only disrespects the true socialism of the left ("because it's bad tactics") but routinely tries to sideline it. As in any political party, the quest for seniority provides grave danger of seeding careerism. Jeremy was a shining example of a principled man who shunned that. Keir has fallen for it hook, line and sinker. The only way he can see his ambition sustained is by ditching principle and pandering, pathetically, to the attack dogs behind his back whose antennae for mostly fake antisemitism are sharply tuned.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 19 Nov 20 - 08:57 AM

I get totally fed up with factional foot stomping. it is pathetic when the factions threaten to inflict tory vermin on us until they get their way. They are not labour, they are not socialist because all they care about is their own faction having power and authority and they don't give a toss about labour and socialist values.

I was not a supporter of the previous Labour leadership, but I still gave up my time and energy to campaign on behalf of the labour party - and locally we have won every election: Council, GLA, London Mayor, local MP, even the local referendum vote as it was a democratic vote.

Now that leadership has changed as a result of another demographic vote, those who call themselves socialist are throwing their toys out of the pram and almost from day one have proved that they have no loyalty to the labour party at all as all they are interested in is personal power and not giving a toss about our society.

If factional in-fighting screws up the 2024 election, the tories MUST not be allowed to retain power.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Nov 20 - 08:18 AM

"s"..

.there it is.. found the litle buger..

I mentioned earlier in the wek
that my keyboard has developed a problem
with double leters...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 19 Nov 20 - 08:13 AM

I'll still continue futiley voting Labour,
for lack of a better alternative to never voting at all...

"Labour - The Hopeles Party for Hope"...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Nov 20 - 07:38 AM

It is just my opinion, naturally, but I think the NEC created the split by reinstating Corbyn. At that point Starmer had a choice of exactly what kind of split, but a split- or at least a major row - was unavoidable.

For my money, the best solution would have been to draft the new disciplinary procedure, ideally getting the ECHR to sign it off, and then review Corbyn's position under the new system. Then he either gets fully brought back in, including the whip, or he stays out, rather than this half and half mixture.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 19 Nov 20 - 07:19 AM

Politically idiotic is strong words, but I think I agree. Read again the words that Corbyn uttered that got him suspended. He did not deny antisemitism, he didn't say that nothing should be done, he expressed his valid view mildly. No hate speech, just free speech from an MP who no longer held a position in the party. I could just about agree that he'd have been tactically better to keep it zipped at that time, but hey ho, at least he's unspun. He was pounced on for that by a "leader" who was looking fearfully over his shoulder at the pro-Israel lobby (NOT the anti-antisemitism lobby in m'humble). So now he's got himself into this utterly predictable tangle. Jeremy Corbyn looks, by streets, to be the most dignified person in the middle of all this at present. I wonder who will be the first to start baying that 28 antisemite MPs have called for Corbyn to be reinstated. Will it be the Mail or the Board Of Deputies? Or let's get Margaret Hodge to say it to Kirsty on Newsnight!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Nov 20 - 05:32 AM

he is politically idiotic ,corbyn will win his own seat no problem at next election, in the meantime he is splitting the labour party further

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Nov 20 - 05:04 AM

I imagine his judgement is that he will win more seats elsewhere. He may be right or wrong, but it is not an idiotic position in itself.

More serious, in that respect, are the 28 Labour MPs demanding Corbyn's reinstatement. If a substantial number of these resign the whip - or a similar number resign if Starmer does reinstate Corbyn - then you are not talking of gaining one seat to replace Corbyn's, but perhaps ten that need to be replaced. That's a much higher barrier to surmount.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Nov 20 - 04:35 AM

starmer is a political idiot. Corbyn can stand at the next election as an independent and win the seat one less seat for labour. the man starmer is as thick as two short planks

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 18 Nov 20 - 06:36 AM

This antisemitism thing isn't going away, ever. The pro-Israel "left" (term used advisedly) lobby in this country (which includes, among many others, those arseholes such as Hodge, Berger, Smeeth, Mann and Ellman and a whole cabal of "Labour Friends of Israel" MPs), along with the Board Of Deputies, will not rest until they have turned Starmer into a led-by-the-nose poodle who auto-condemns any and all criticism of the Israeli regime. So far, he has utterly failed to point out to them and the rest of us that antisemitism (as vehemently opposed to anti-Netanyahu-ism) is a curse that RUNS THROUGH THE WHOLE OF SOCIETY, and that the illegitimate obsessive focus on Labour by these bloody control freaks (a) does nothing to solve the wider issues surrounding racism in this country, (b) will simply perpetuate the reign of right-wing, populist and, yes, RACIST Tories, who are far worse than Labour in almost every regard when it comes to racism. Why, in a poll a couple of years ago it was found that 48% of Tory voters actually characterised themselves as racist, fer chrissake. Anyone for flag-waving piccaninnies? Watermelon smiles? Bank robbers? Letterboxes?

Led-by-the-nose is right. He needs to tell the Manns, Ellmans and the rest to mind their own bloody business and look to the deficiencies and dishonesty of their own side. As for the Board Of Deputies, you are unelected. Enjoy your right to free speech but don't be surprised when we bite back to tell you how your stance serves to strengthen a bellicose regime that represses and discriminates against the Palestinian minority and that is a perpetual running sore in the Middle East. Talk about blind in one eye. That's been known to be called bigotry.

Just flashed up as I was typing this that it's been edicted that Jeremy can't sit as a Labour MP. There'll be a lot of gleeful hand-rubbing going on. What a muddle. What a gift.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Nov 20 - 04:30 AM

2 what ifs..

What if Starmer had given Corbyn gentle behind the scenes persuasion
to retire with dignity...???

or..

What if Corbyn had been diplomatically booted up to the Lords...???



Nah.. Corbyns vindictive enemies have too tight a grip on Starmer's
short n curlies..

They'll only settle for Corbyn's head on a pike...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Nov 20 - 03:58 AM

The reinstatement of Corbyn has put Starmer into a very difficult position. The main finding of the ECHR report was that the leadership should not be interfering in the investigations and decisions of the formal complaints procedure. So if Starmer does do anything about the reinstatement he is going against the report himself. Yet you can bet that there will be no end of commentary saying 'Starmer should do this, or that'.   So the NEC has brought Labour anti-Semitism back central stage when all our focus should be the virus and Brexit. It is an utter gift to Johnson in the midst of his woes and damaging to the country as a whole because it is a distraction from those critical concerns.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Nov 20 - 08:20 PM

Grr. Beeb won't let me go that far back. Maybe it's somewhere else and I'll keep looking. Though trying to find her saying anything is a form of sado-masochism...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Nov 20 - 07:08 PM

BBC News channel

20:15 - 20:25

Wiki: van der zyl

"She is a self-described "fighter" and takes as a compliment the comparison that "the only difference between me and a Rottweiler
is that a Rottweiler eventually lets go".[8]

Her visits to her grandparents gave her, she says, "a great passion for Israel"[1]
and she believes that the Board exists "to promote a sympathetic understanding of Israel."[3]
She has pledged to "defend Israel’s legitimacy and its centrality to Jewish identity".[9]"

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Nov 20 - 07:01 PM

I missed that: was it tonight and approx how far in? I have iPlayer...
.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Nov 20 - 06:50 PM

I think I recorded it.
But Sky+ boxes make it impossible to share recorded files...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 17 Nov 20 - 06:48 PM

you should have heard the venomous rant BBC news allowed marie van der zyl...

Her face was a portrait of fanatical hatred...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Nov 20 - 06:43 PM

I'm rip-roaring incandescent about what I've just watched on Newsnight. Kirsty Wark interviewed Jenny Manson (Jewish Voice for Labour and a Corbyn supporter) and then, separately, Louise Ellman (ex-Labour MP and ex-party member and implacable Corbyn opponent), following Jeremy Corbyn's reinstatement to the party. Jenny Manson was constantly interrupted and harried by Wark and was scarcely able to get any point across. Then Louise Ellman was treated gently and politely, almost diffidently, and was allowed to speak at length with hardly any interrupting at all. Blatant bias and well below the standard we should expect from BBC presenters.

I've complained to the Beeb...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Nov 20 - 04:55 PM

bonzo when you are in a hole stop dogging

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 17 Nov 20 - 04:18 PM

After isolating with his dog, Johnson has now tested positive for kennel cough!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 17 Nov 20 - 07:35 AM

I don't get your meaning SPB. Sorry :-(

In what way is the EU "victimising the majority of the UK population"?

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 16 Nov 20 - 04:46 AM

The EU are not subject to UK law, so if the EU were to decide to stop victimising the majority of the UK population, they could easily extend transition indefinitely until the UK rejoins the EU. he only reason for not doing so would be pure spite towards those of us who are pro-EU/European. Of course we don't know what dark money is influencing the other 27 heads of state to make them victimise us.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 16 Nov 20 - 03:24 AM

Not an option, Sandman, I am afraid. Legally, Brexit happened in January. We are no longer members of the EU. The transition period end in December and any extension had to be requested by in June or July. In any case, from a UK perspective, the end of transition date is written in primary legislation and so it would need an act of Parliament to alter it.

Here is a clipping of David Davis from the Express in Jan 2019:
Brexiteer Mr Davis told BBC Today that the EU was "testing the mettle of the British Government. The government is running out the timetable, running out the clock but actually, there are now already signs that the EU knows it needs a deal and it will come back."

He continued: "The simple truth is that they will hold fast to their line - this is the traditional approach of the European Commission, the European Union.

"They will hold fast to their line to the last possible minute and then, if we hold fast to our line, then they will actually come back and renegotiate."

As far as I can see, the entire UK strategy has been what Game Theory refers to as 'Chicken'.   The claim is that all we have to do is stick to whatever we want firmly enough and the EU will concede in the last minute. We still seem to be playing the game today in what could be the last week for negotiations.

The problem, of course, is that if neither side gives up, you have an almighty head-on crash as both sides lose out. Which looks as if it is where we are heading. The sensible thing is to change course, obviously, but that is seen as losing, and neither player wants that.

There are a lot of mathematical Games in Game Theory. It is typical we took the highest risk one.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Nov 20 - 03:08 AM

how about postponing brexit untilcovid vaccines have been tried and tested and are successful, we now have boris going down with it again.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 15 Nov 20 - 08:11 AM

The Guardian’s view - absolutely spot-on as always - of the Cummings and goings at 10, Downing Street. It’ll be interesting to see how Dumber gets on without Dom telling him what to do.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Nov 20 - 01:27 PM

Dick - Yes.. maybe, but the ripper, as evil as he was, payed for his crimes..

Cummings is still free at large, and will ultimately be responsible
for destroying countless more lives than sutcliffe ever could...


[..and Dick, btw.. I'm in a generous mood.
I gave you an easy one to have a go at me about..]

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Nov 20 - 01:17 PM

I didn't read the remark as comparing the two.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Nov 20 - 01:12 PM

The mucking out of the stables. quote Much as i dislike cummings your remark comparing him to the ripper is an insult to the yorkshire rippers victims and tasteless.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Nov 20 - 12:55 PM

Nigel - you might not have typed those exact words, but...



What a day, eh..

The ripper and cummings.. which will be most missed...???

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Nov 20 - 12:48 PM

Abject nonsense Nigel and you know it. I am presuming you and I are of a similar age. We would also presume we both got "free" school meals paid for by the tax-payer (of which both my parents were numbered.) Every child of my acquaintance got "free" school meals back in the 60's and early 70's.

I'm amazed that every child of your acquaintance got free school meals. How would you even know? I remember having to take in 'dinner money' once a week.
And if both your parents were tax-payers I'm surprised that you got free school meals.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Nov 20 - 12:47 PM

It's outrageous giving the poor scum children taxpayer funded free food.

The dirty little oiks will only trade it for drugs and knives...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Nov 20 - 12:44 PM

From: punkfolkrocker - PM
Date: 13 Nov 20 - 07:40 AM

Nigel - Yes, those lazy lefty teachers only want to feed kids in school at taxpayers expense,
so they can have an easier life skiving hard graft...

That may be what you think, but it's not what I said.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash
Date: 13 Nov 20 - 12:40 PM

"But it is a simple start to a 'nanny state'. The responsibility for feeding the children should rest with the parent(s). Are those suggesting 'free' school meals during holidays planning to reduce child benefit/universal credit accordingly? Probably not."

Abject nonsense Nigel and you know it. I am presuming you and I are of a similar age. We would also presume we both got "free" school meals paid for by the tax-payer (of which both my parents were numbered.) Every child of my acquaintance got "free" school meals back in the 60's and early 70's.

Just as an aside, my school was a 20 minute journey by bus from my home, longer because I walked. So add two 20 minute journeys (presuming the bus timetable fell just right) that would allow me just 20 minute to prepare and consume a meal, and wash the pots I should add.

The expression "give your head a shake" comes to mind.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Nov 20 - 08:47 AM

PFR :-D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Nov 20 - 08:25 AM

Millions of tory voting furloughed employees now have the luxury
of lots more free time at home,
to get on social media to moan about scroungers on benefits...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Nov 20 - 08:11 AM

I paraphrase this from something I say yesterday.

I breaks the heart of a socialist to know that people are going hungry so that socialist will gladly feed 100 people, even knowing that 5 of them don't deserve it.

It breaks the heart of a capitalist to know that someone is getting something they don't deserve so that capitalist will happily let 100 people starve rather than have 5 get something they are not entitled to.

Yes, Nigel, I know you will point something out but it sums up attitudes nicely.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 13 Nov 20 - 07:40 AM

"and avoiding a need to increase the length of the school day"

Yes.. teachers do need a few hours off work to get some sleep at night...

My wife's school day ends when she switches her laptop and mobile phone off
minutes before she goes upstairs to bed...

.. if she can avoid restless nights worrying about the next day's problems at school...

Nigel - Yes, those lazy lefty teachers only want to feed kids in school at taxpayers expense,
so they can have an easier life skiving hard graft...

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator
Date: 13 Nov 20 - 07:18 AM

I think more of the feckless and undeserving rich (not those who make their income through their own talents and dedication, but those who grow their wealth through exploiting other peoples' labours. Those who want more than their entitlement (health, education, 'a place a live'), and resent having to continue to pay their share towards universal entitlement. I know a place to live is not included, but I also remember the first time I went to Poland, and having difficultly in explaining the concept of homelessness.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Nov 20 - 06:18 AM

Touché, Nigel. I consider myself to have been out-nitpicked!

In spite of my socialist inclinations, I think that certain benefits should be available to all, even the richest, means-testing set aside, as that makes us all stakeholders in the state. Even the top billionaire gets free NHS healthcare at the point of access. Everyone gets the same tax-free allowance up to a handsome £100,000 income a year before the means-testing kicks in. Every child is entitled to free state education. I think that free school meals should be universal too. We can all argue about the feckless and undeserving poor, etc., but taxpayers paying for school meals is as chicken feed next to the indulgently-low top tax rates for big earners and the fact that we turn a blind eye to tax avoidance/evasion. A few years ago I seem to remember reading that, via the latter, we let off the mega-rich to the tune of around a hundred billion a year.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 13 Nov 20 - 05:35 AM

If you don't want children to go to school hungry, it's free school breakfasts you should be arguing for... ;-)
Surely then they would still be "Going to school hungry" unless they had a breakfast at home first.

As I understood it, school dinners (during term time) were to keep the children going through the afternoon without needing to go home for lunch. This makes the job easier for teachers (by reducing the to and fro, and avoiding a need to increase the length of the school day) and allows for 'free school meals' for those who can't afford them. But it is a simple start to a 'nanny state'. The responsibility for feeding the children should rest with the parent(s). Are those suggesting 'free' school meals during holidays planning to reduce child benefit/universal credit accordingly? Probably not.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Nov 20 - 03:40 AM

I think he is leaving for a job with Donald Trump :- D

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG
Date: 13 Nov 20 - 02:23 AM

There are rumours of Dominic Cummings leaving by Christmas 2020.

I am fairly sure, though not 100%, that several years ago there was talk of him staying until Brexit was through. If so, disappearing from the scene just before the end of transition would fit precisely with that plan. There have, however, been a long series of 'Cummings is about to go' stories every six months or so since the 2016 vote. He was leaving for health reasons, then only staying to see Boris become PM, then Boris get elected, and so on, so this could well be another of those. On the other hand he is a handy recipient for the Cabinet to blame for any of the decisions over the last year that did not work out as they wanted.

we will see. With luck, if he goes, the disruptive plans he has initiated for pretty much all governmental bodies will go with him.

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 12 Nov 20 - 05:18 AM

If you don't want children to go to school hungry, it's free school breakfasts you should be arguing for... ;-)