Is it Ok to sing from a song book?

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 02:53 PM

"This either makes sense to people or doesn't, depending on their orientation."

Aye, I guess the notion is alien to me and I enjoy the combo of individual turns with a percentage of *spontaneously occuring* group singing. I'm only familiar with group singing in a formal choral setting or seasonal carol singing - both of which are fine of course.

If other people prefer that kind of folk-choral stylee singing thing themselves, that's cool and none of my business! Horses for courses.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 02:20 PM

Genie:

if other pub customers or audiences are listening and quality is important it's better for all the singers to be "on the same page of music" -- both figuratively and literally -- because it makes for a better performance.

Codger:

The focus should be on sharing songs and having fun, not judging people's "performances"--the concept of "good enough" applies.

Do you two agree or not?

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: mg
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 01:22 PM

Genie..I know we differ in some areas and agree on others..but I find lyric sheets handed out more disturbing to a traditional (not eclectic) sing than the blue books. I think it is fine to bring them and pass them out at the end of the evening to those who want to learn it. This either makes sense to people or doesn't, depending on their orientation. The key is always what the originators of the group want and have stated..of course if they have not made it clear, then anything goes. mg

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 12:57 PM

"but where group singing is involved,"

I don't think we do that in the UK either. And personally, I'm glad for it too. I want to hear an individual singer. Including the beautifully delicately ornamented Irish song from one lady, which holds the entire pub (including the ba regulars) in silent thrall. The rich hearty shanty, with call and response from the gent (who actually used to be a fisherman). The well crafted harmonies of a couple who regularly play and sing together. I could go on and on. Without this variety and colour, all sessions would seems the same to me. In the sessions I go to, there are chorus songs (I did Alison Gross last time) and people *pick-up* the chorus. And there are old favourites that never fail to get everyone joining in. So all the options are there, but there's no prescription.

It may work for you, but as I say - the notion of a one size fits all book that everyone sings the same songs from all together, reminds me of 'mass-processed' folk music (rather than the more traditionally processed stuff). And for my own part, I'm thoroughly glad that we don't have it here.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Genie
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 12:44 PM

Excellent analysis and summary, Codger!

Mike, people who like to sing together from books may not find churches to be their favorite venues, not only because they may not be religious (or they're folkies of diverse religions), but because it's hard to get up and get your voice going on Sunday morning after a long night at the folk pub.

Crow Sister, and others, I find the juxtaposition of these two arguments in this thread interesting, if not amusing:
1. Books are bad because they end up lowering the quality of folk music performed in public and contributing to folk music's not being taken seriously.
2. Using a "special book for everyone to safely all sing the exact same songs together from in the exact same way" is less desirable than having the lead singer do it all from memory and others joining in as they can, even if it means sometimes not everyone is singing the same version.

Seems to me that if other pub customers or audiences are listening and quality is important it's better for all the singers to be "on the same page of music" -- both figuratively and literally -- because it makes for a better performance.   
Strictly solo performances are one thing, but where group singing is involved, if excellence is the goal, either stick to very, very familiar songs (that "everyone knows by heart") or maybe it's not such a bad idea to use a lyric sheet.

(Rise Up Singing, as has been said before, does not make a good "hymnal" for sight-reading because of its type size and format. It is not user-friendly as a lyric/chord sheet except for research purposes.)

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Amos
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 11:55 AM

I belong to the shut-up-and-sing camp, myself. An excess of judgement, as shown herein, seems to having a chilling effect on hearts and voices.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 11:43 AM

'Folk Divas', 'Folk Nazis', 'Folk Snobs'. Lovely way to preach tolerance for your own approach.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Artful Codger
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 10:35 AM

The opponents of song sheets seem to have two basic arguments:

(1) As someone put it: If a song is worth singing, it's worth learning, is it not?

Not. There are thousands of songs I find worth singing and sharing, but I don't have the time to memorize them all. Using a song sheet, I can work up a song to a performance level that well surpasses most soi-disant "prepared" singers I hear in less than an hour. It may take me a few days or a week to get a song down to memory--still falteringly--and refine the expression. For reliable performance entirely from memory, it takes scores of repetitions over weeks or months, and periodic refreshing to keep it; even with all that, lapseless performance is not assured.

So there's a huge effort disparity between performance-ready (with a lyric sheet) and memory-ready. The arbitrary expectations of folk Nazis do not constitute sufficient reason to cross that gulf, nor is a song less sing-worthy just because someone decides for whatever reasons not to memorize it. Other people have lives, and different priorities. With the relative explosion of songs we now encounter, and the fracturing of our dwindling leisure time, limiting oneself to only memorized material isn't as feasible or satisfying an approach as it once may have been.


(2) Reading the words impacts performance.

It can. If a person is obviously unfamiliar with the words, and is reading lifelessly into the page, that's bad. If someone is reliant on RUS as the one true source, that's bad. If someone insists that your rendition conform to RUS, that's unspeakable. Nevertheless, the attitudes I'm seeing here are "baby with the bathwater" reactions that typify congressional legislation: belabor everyone to dissuade some offenders.

Insecurity over wording, verbal dyslexia, lapsing, and conditioned errors also impact performance; song sheet use can improve fluidity and allow you to concentrate more on expression than recall. Remember that we're talking about normal people here, not just die-hard musos accustomed to performing. People also mentioned "flow": if you have your personal songbooks with you, you can "flow" to a song you know well but which is no longer (entirely) in your off-the-cuff repertoire. My notebooks are full of those, as well as musical "one-shots"--curiosities that have to wait for the right audience or occasion.

I bridle when I* hear the term "performance" used in this context, because it likens a song circle more to an "American Idol" tryout or paid gig than to a modern-day equivalent of a back porch gathering. The focus should be on sharing songs and having fun, not judging people's "performances"--the concept of "good enough" applies. If you want only inspired, polished, "engaging" performances, shell out the money to hear professionals, or form a private, invitation-only clique.

* including myself

Singing from a song sheet or book is hardly the worst thing you can do to a song; I hear greater crimes against music from folk divas** all the time. Missed pitches, drifting flat, uncontrolled vibrato, mushy diction, singing from the throat and nose, lackluster phrasing and expression, distracting "vocal effects", shrillness and straining, melodic stolidity, blocklike harmonies, gopher faces and head bobbing, backup that overpowers the singing, ... well, you get the idea. Yet we're expected to accept these forms of unpreparedness as "natural voice" or "personal style". Get some perspective: divert your effort from memorize everything into taking some vocal lessons--the payoff is better, for everyone.

** including those who've posted their opposition in this thread. Glass houses and stones.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: RTim
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 10:33 AM

It is a pity that this thread drifted so much, and in it's own way it became three threads in one.
I am against the use of Rise Up Singing - I try and avoid it at all costs.
However, as I say earlier in the thread, I use my own "Aide Memoire" of First Lines - Only when I need to, at sing arounds, but never at paid performance. I will however, have a gig list that may include the First line of each song to get me going.

I also think the new thread about how best to run a Trad. Session/Club is a good thing, but I am so set in my ways I just want the club to be like the ones I used to sing at in England years ago - the Fo'cs'l'e in Southampton being the prime example.

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 10:27 AM

..or something.

Umm.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 10:25 AM

Sorry, my last comment was specifically in response to some of the posters here talking about RUS or 'the blue book'. From what I've gleaned it's a 'one size fits all' kind of affair and everyone sings the exact same songs - all together now - in the exact same way 'the book' has got it writ - which sounds thoroughly mind-numbing to me and not far off the sort of thing one might expect to find in an elderly folks home..
As for individuals using a prompt that's their business. But 'the blue book'? I dunno, but I reckon if it were in a novel it'd be subtitled "Joy Joy Nu-Song for Loyal Patriots!" and you'd have to take your blue pills before meeting together at the same time to sing the ministry's socially positive joy joy nu-songs together like good citizens!

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 10:06 AM

Sorry for my part in the thread drift. I've started a new thread about what makes a good traddish folk club. You can all get back the pressing question of books, good or bad...

By the way, I'm not very good at learning the words to songs. And even when I learn them in order to sing them on a particular night, they're invariably gone a few days later. However, I'm not personally prepared to go into a club/singaround with the words in front of me any more (though I have done this in the past). Not sure why, but for me it just doesn't feel right. I wouldn't seek to impose this on others, it's just that for me, if a song's worth singing, it's worth learning. If I want to sing something, I have to practice it (usually in the car) plenty of times first - fort the sake of getting the tune somewhere near right and getting the "feel" of the song right as much as anything else. Inevitably, with repetition, the words seem to rub off on me one way or another. However, if I haven't had the time to learn & practice, I go to the singaround to sit and listen and join in the odd chorus.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: MikeL2
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 09:58 AM

Hi

I had long given up on this thread but masochist that I am I just popped in to see how much more of it I can stand.

Can I say that I have no objection to people wanting to sing with books if they feel they have to. I personally have never used one and I suppose I never will. I am certauinly NOt a filk snob. Come one come all is my motto.

But one thing interests me - if so many people want to get all together and to sing in unison from a book(s), why don't they go to a church??

Just a thought.

cheers

MikeL2

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: GUEST,anti folk sonb
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 09:37 AM

I use a book because I have a terrible memory, and these folk snobs who are against people like me shou allgo away and go and have their own sessions where songbooks are alowed to used and then they will will happy and so will people like me

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 09:32 AM

Must say, I'm certainly glad that the phenomena of a 'no need to engage brain' special book for everyone to safely all sing the exact same songs together from in the exact same way, hasn't caught on in the UK.. yet.

With the average age of folkies being what it is, sessions would end up looking too much like homes for the aged and infirm for comfort!

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Soldier boy
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 09:19 AM

Ey Muppett, you're a rascal!

I agree with you Genie. I think that Janie has made some excellent posts here, but then again, so have you.

Chris

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: GUEST,muppett
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 05:01 AM

Well said Chris, So when can we get together to compare books then and p*ss the folk snobs off.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Genie
Date: 12 Feb 10 - 12:54 AM

Actually, I've started skipping over certain posts precisely because they do seem to be a tangential argument rather peculiar to a couple of particular clubs and not that germane to the general topic here.   It's not that hard to do.

Janie, thanks for this: "Your wisdom shines. It is apparent that you speak from a place of interest and are not taking a position to be defended or asserted. Simply observing."

I don't know that it's "wisdom" so much as merely the attempt to find common ground among the various posters, where it exists, and claridy where the real disagreements lie.
I think you've made some excellent posts in that regard, and beautifully expressed.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Soldier boy
Date: 11 Feb 10 - 08:24 PM

Guys, this personal bickering is starting to drag on far too long and has strayed too far from the original thread that I posted.

So please calm down or start a seperate thread where you can continue to argue ad nauseam.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: GUEST,Spleen Cringe
Date: 11 Feb 10 - 12:30 PM

Tim, I disagree. It's very interesting (though possibly in need of its own thread). Bryan is involved in a successful "traditional and written in the tradition" style club and people* are interested in how his club has managed to develope in the way it has, where others (who think they have the same or similar policies) have largely become bastions of singer-songwriting and pop/rock/singer-songwriter cover versions and also maybe have a problem with very quality when it comes to some of the singing on offer.

Brian, please believe me when I say I'm not attacking you here. I actually believe you and your co-organisers are sitting on some very important knowledge, skills and experience that many of us would benefit from, should you wish to share them with us. Personally, I'm interested in how:

1. You have managed to maintain a reasonably good quality of singing and a "traditional/in-the-style-of" focus, whilst at the same time having a positive and welcoming attitude to all-comers;

2. Whether the club started out with the aim of being the sort of club it became (and managed to maintain focus on this aim through thick and thin over the years) or whether it came to its current situation through a long process of trial and error and testing out different models (or indeed whether the club's success happened by other means entirely);

3. The BIG question: what specific advice you might have for club organisers and potential club organisers who wish to replicate the model your club has so successfully developed;

4. If all else fails, what do they put in the beer in Lewes that we're not getting elsewhere?(!).

I'm sure other people* are equally fascinated by how the Lewes folks have managed to make this happen and may have some supplementary questions.

PS: Sorry to put you on the spot, Bryan. If you're minded to respond, feel free to phone a friend or ask the audience...

*myself included

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Melissa
Date: 11 Feb 10 - 12:04 PM

"You did it Wrong..it's supposed to be in A"

Most of my responses were go-to-hell looks. I also tried
"..actually, the singer gets to choose the key"
My personal favorite was "that may be, but I'm certainly not interested in prolapsing to sing here!"

After a few years, I did come up with a ladylike response..
"It IS?? Gosh, I bet that's neat..will you do it and show me how it goes?"
He is an awful singer/player and didn't like being put on the spot (heh heh) His commentary stopped.



Snail, it sounds to me like maybe the difference in your club may be that the group simply gets what it expects and knows how to provide strong leadership..

If it's ridiculous for Charlie to tell me I sing wrong because of the key I chose, isn't it equally ridiculous to tell Snail that he is wrong for whatever it is he's supposedly doing to ruffle feathers around here?

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: RTim
Date: 11 Feb 10 - 11:32 AM

OK guys, this should ALL be via PM's, as we are not learning much from what you have to say!!

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: TheSnail
Date: 11 Feb 10 - 11:23 AM

Howard Jones (quoting me)

Fortunate? Or could it be a consequence of our policy?

Well it could be. Who knows, but "fortunate" for something like 23 years seems to be stretching it a bit. Our policy doesn't start and end with "give everyone a chance".

you certainly seem to have implied it ... My impression ... You also appear to suggest that ... I have always taken that to mean ...

Sorry but I can't do anything with any of that. If you want to take issue with things I've actually said, please feel free.

From my post a few hours ago (did you read it?) -

Maybe I don't entirely understand it myself but a civilised dicussion and an atmosphere of enquiry might be more useful than the present situation where I feel I'm being constantly asked to justify myself.

Especially when I seem to be being asked to justify what you think I said not what I actually said.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 11 Feb 10 - 10:50 AM

Snail, if you have not said so specifically then you certainly seem to have implied it, if not in this particular thread then in others. Certainly in your post of 08 Feb 10 - 11:43 AM you said in reply to my comment "Perhaps you are fortunate enough to have a strong enough body of singers for that to work" (ie for your policy to allow a high standard)

Fortunate? Or could it be a consequence of our policy?

I'm not going to search through the other threads about standards in folk clubs. My impression is that when the question comes up, you appear to say that your club does not impose standards but nevertheless achieves high standards. You also appear to suggest that this demonstrates that other clubs don't need to exercise quality control over their singers. I have always taken that to mean you see a connection between your door policy and the standard your club achieves. Or have I misunderstood you?

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: TheSnail
Date: 11 Feb 10 - 10:11 AM

Howard Jones

What we have difficulty understanding is that one follows from the other.

Have I ever said that it did?

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 11 Feb 10 - 09:44 AM

Snail, I've replied more fully in a PM but as it seems to be continuing on the thread I hope you won't mind if I post very briefly here.

We understand that you have a policy which allows anyone a chance to sing.

We also understand that the average standard of singers is high and that the club continues to be largely traditional.

What we have difficulty understanding is that one follows from the other.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: TheSnail
Date: 11 Feb 10 - 08:46 AM

Pip Radish

Snail - yes, I understand that your experience is different from mine;

Perhaps I should give some credentials. I first started going to folk clubs in about 1969. I started coming to the present incarnation of the club in the mid-nineties and joined the committee about nine years ago. I think all the other members of the committee have more experience on the organisational side in this and other clubs, some going back forty years or more. Some are still involved with other clubs. One, now retired from the committee, probably started out in the fifties/sixties revival and was for a time an organiser of Bracknell Folk festival. Between us, we have quite a lot of experience.

In case anyone is in any doubt, the policy we operate is that anyone who wishes to perform will be given the opportunity to do so, time allowing. As far as I know, this has always been true long before I appeared on the scene. Will Fly will confirm that any newcomer will be pounced on as soon as they come through the door and asked if they want to sing or play. (Does anyone think we shouldn't have asked him?)

whenever you're asked to explain, you seem to maintain that it is a pure open-door policy

It may seem that way because that is what seems to concern people most. I am constantly on the back foot defending myself against attacks on our floorspot policy. Your own post of 08 Feb 10 - 12:58 PM was somewhat confrontational. My "I really can't understand why I am coming under attack..." was in frustration at the fact that I am saying "Look. We've got a club that operates this policy but remains largely traditional and hasn't vanished under a tide of snigger/snoggers or Dylan wannabes." and the only response I get is people telling me what we are doing wrong.

Can you clarify, some time, please?

Well, here are a couple of extracts from a post in reply to Jim that you may have missed -

We care deeply about the music we love and put a considerable amount of work into promoting it. We try to create a positive and supportive environment in which people can learn and share.

All we can do is lead by example and hope that what we do and how we do it conveys the message.

My seemingly flippant "Maybe it's our positive attitude." contains an element of truth. We try to create a culture of success and hope that it's infectious. It seems to work.

Maybe I don't entirely understand it myself but a civilised dicussion and an atmosphere of enquiry might be more useful than the present situation where I feel I'm being constantly asked to justify myself.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 11 Feb 10 - 03:01 AM

Snail - yes, I understand that your experience is different from mine; that was my starting-point. I also understand that your policy is something other than pure come-all-ye open-door laissez-faire.

What I don't understand is in what way your policy is any different from a pure open-door policy - because whenever you're asked to explain, you seem to maintain that it is a pure open-door policy. Can you clarify, some time, please?

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Janie
Date: 11 Feb 10 - 12:20 AM

Uhmm. Make that "ask" the songs....

Genie,

Harking back to a post you made a bit earlier, it does seem that there are many subtopics and conversations and/or arguments among different people posting. Pretty interesting to take a step back and observe that. I'm struck by how differently the thread reads from that perspective.

Your wisdom shines. It is apparent that you speak from a place of interest and are not taking a position to be defended or asserted. Simply observing.

Thanks.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Janie
Date: 10 Feb 10 - 10:41 PM

Good job, SB's song book!

As the songs how they ever managed to reach consensus?

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 10 Feb 10 - 09:16 PM

I can't imagine somebody saying: "You did that wrong, it's supposed to be in A".   I would think the answer to that is: "It's supposed to be done in the best key for the singer You're welcome to do it in A when you do it. Thanks so much for your concern."

And if RUS or some other written source specifies A, there's another argument, if one were needed, to stop relying on such sources.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Genie
Date: 10 Feb 10 - 08:33 PM

LOL, Melissa!

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: TheSnail
Date: 10 Feb 10 - 07:34 PM

Pip Radish

People* think you're saying that all you need for a successful "traditional and written in the tradition" style club is to let anyone sing who wants to.

Then people* should read what I have actually said a little more carefully before leaping to judgement.

And people* think that in their experience this kind of open-door policy results in anything but.

Then perhaps people* should take more notice of the experience of others and consider the possibility that their understanding may be incomplete.

*Yourself included.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: mg
Date: 10 Feb 10 - 06:29 PM

I tell you..some of these people are tyrannical and very controlling. And it is us who quietly just leave who are called insensitive, musical snobs, etc. etc. The woman in BC who kept yanking at my chair to pull it back, multiple times...was the last straw for me. I honestly don't know if I will bother going back there. mg

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Soldier boy
Date: 10 Feb 10 - 06:17 PM

Sorry! - the last line of the song's reply should read:

"MY Pater smiles broadly and thanks you again and again"

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Soldier boy
Date: 10 Feb 10 - 06:11 PM

But what does the SONG itself think about all this?

To find out, I got out my song book and just turned to a random page.

I then sat down and had a quiet chat with that song; telling it all about this topic and all the many comments,agreements,arguments and suggestions that have appeared on this thread from so very many brilliant postings.

The song said that it was a good question and that it would have to think very hard about it before it replied and that it would also ask the opinion of all the other songs lovingly written down in my song book. Finally it said that it would get back to me with it's reply based on the concensus of ALL the songs in my book .

I thanked it warmly, closed the book and left it on my computer desk.

In the morning when I came back to the computer with my cornflakes I found the song book open at what had been the next available blank page.

And this is what the song had written:


"I don't mind if you hold me and sing me from paper
So long as you sing me and you still honour my Pater,
With each line you caress me and bring me to life
You love me like a daughter or a mother or wife,
But for those that commit me to mind and to heart
With endless repetition from the end to the start
Who consume my very essence through effort and pain,
Mt Pater smiles broadly and thanks you again and again."


Chris

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Deckman
Date: 10 Feb 10 - 06:05 PM

I'm going to jump in ... again ... and relate a somewhat bewildering conversation I had at a Seattle hoot a couple of years ago. I found myself in conversation with a rather prominant folkie lady from Canada. She was in town for that weekends' events. I was cussing and discussing things with a small group that were talking about the decline of participation in the Seattle Song Circle.

Being the shy person that I am, I expressed my negative opinion about the detrimental effect that RUS has had on the group. When I said this, she got quite upset. She blamed ME for the problem.

Here's where I got confused ... she said that the singers who use "the book" have every right to hear ME SING ... "and just who in the heck was I to deny them my music!"

I just shook my head and headed for the bathroom. bob(deckman)nelson

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 10 Feb 10 - 04:15 PM

I really can't understand why I am coming under attack for being involved with a successful "traditional and written in the tradition" style club.

You're not. You're being criticised for what you say here. People* think you're saying that all you need for a successful "traditional and written in the tradition" style club is to let anyone sing who wants to. And people* think that in their experience this kind of open-door policy results in anything but.

*Myself included.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 10 Feb 10 - 04:05 PM

Snail, I've pm'd you.

I didn't think I was laying down the law, or attacking you, but if that's how it came across then I apologise.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Melissa
Date: 10 Feb 10 - 04:03 PM

It took me years to come up with a ladylike response to
"You did that wrong..it's supposed to be in A"

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Genie
Date: 10 Feb 10 - 03:29 PM

Mary, I don't think we're in disagreement. It really can be very disruptive when people hold up the song while people look it up in the book.   (If I do a song that's in RUS and it's a group where people have the books, I may tell them "It's in the book" or even give them the page, if I know it, but then go ahead and start the song without waiting till everyone finds it.   I've also been known to say "This song's in the book but I may not use the chords they have."

One thing I really do not like to do is follow someone else's idea of the "right" chords if it's a song I've worked to commit to "muscle memory," because playing those alternative chords will interfere with that.    And in some groups you're expected to use the lyrics and chords in their designated book even when you choose to lead a song you've been doing a bit differently for years.   I can't say I totally stay away from groups like that, but I'm not all that eager to participate in them regularly because of that kind of conformity pressure.

It's like your Sloop John B experience, Don.
I've developed my own arrangement of many songs, sometimes (frankly) because I couldn't copy the guitar work on the recording I first heard and sometimes just because I prefer different chords, different rhythm, different style.    But many of my top-notch guitarist friends have the original (or best-known) artists' licks down pat and react as thought I'm "wrong" when I play the song a little differently, even if I haven't changed the melody or lyrics and when my chords work just fine with the tune and harmonies.   It's as though a song were carved in stone.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 10 Feb 10 - 03:03 PM

When I was very, very young, I remember wondering why they always got the words and tunes wrong on BBC Radio's "Listen with Mother". Helps to explain why I always take authority with a pinch of salt.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 10 Feb 10 - 02:54 PM

That is the key. We did not challenge anything. We allowed it to happen, city by city and camp by camp. We certainly should have been accomodating to those with different preferences, perhaps 2 hours on books, 2 hours off; room a with book, room b without; first sunday with, second without..but the two approaches are not compatible. And we did not speak up and say what we saw was miserably wrong..we just one by one quit going to these places. The tipping point was reached long ago in many big cities..

And before it happens at Mystic, and before it spreads to UK...be forewarned and be prepared and be very public with your preferences, in writing if it is an advertised event. mg

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Don Firth
Date: 10 Feb 10 - 02:40 PM

Scene:   The Place Next Door (a coffeehouse in Seattle's Wallingford District).
Time:   Sometime in the very early 1960s.

I get a request for "The Sloop John B." So I sing it. When I finish, the requester is not totally pleased. Reason? "That's not the way the Kingston Trio does it!"

Back story:   I had been singing "The Sloop John B." for nearly ten years, having learned it from Carl Sandburg's American Songbag and may have inadvertently changed a word or two since I first learned it, since I had also heard it sung live by a few other people and on a record or two, probably recorded well before the members of the Kingston Trio had even met each other. But there could not have been more than a word or two's difference between the way I sang it and the way I had learned it from Sandburg. And comparing the KT's recorded version with the written music in Sandburg, the KT had changed more words than I had, and had also altered the rhythmic structure of the song by quite a bit.

"No," I quipped to my critic. "You see, there are three of them and there's only one of me." (Laugh from the rest of the audience.)

Far more annoying than this sort of thing is when I sing a song that I've known for years and someone tells me, "You're not doing it right! That's not the same words that are in The Blue Book!"

Well—T. bloody S. is my response to that!

That sort of appeal to the "absolute authority" of a phonograph record or a song book can be the death of the folk process if you allow it to go unchallenged.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: TheSnail
Date: 10 Feb 10 - 02:37 PM

Thanks for the apology, Howard. I think if you take a considered look at yout posts you will see that it was necessary.

I have no knowledge of your club other than what you have told us

Indeed you don't but it doesn't seem to stop you laying down the law about what we are doing wrong.

I really can't understand why I am coming under attack for being involved with a successful "traditional and written in the tradition" style club.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 10 Feb 10 - 12:59 PM

I don't care either if someone uses notes or a lyric sheet or the book itself. It is when they direct the group to do it, or the group stops a song and says what page is it. That is what is so disruptive. THat is what hijacks a group. mg

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Genie
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 08:33 PM

Mary, I don't think it's ever a good idea to impose books on a group.   (When I'm in a group where people are using RUS, I often won't open one even if it's there, and I'm not going to look at the book to sing a song I know by heart just because RUS may have altered the words or the chords.) But I really don't see why some people get bent out of shape because someone in the circle uses notes or a lyric sheet when it's their turn (scheduled or not) to sing a song. How is that "imposing" on the others?

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Genie
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 08:28 PM

Howard: "" I can definitely recall one poster who uses a book who has a repertoire of more than 50 songs. Another justified using a book by saying they would not repeat a song during a year."

I'm not sure if any one person said those things as such. I, like some others, have said that some songs I sing are season-specific or situation-specific and not likely to be repeated often or soon.   And like some others, I've said there are occasions where I make use of song sheets. But I don't know that those of us who said we -- or our song circles - sometimes use lyric sheets have, said we are bad singers or don't take the time to learn songs. On the contrary, it can be precisely because you DO know many hundreds of songs by heart -- and perform them often in public, usually without books or lyric sheets -- that it's not feasible to practice all of them hundreds of times every month or even every year.   
But sometimes an occasion arises that calls for a song you didn't expect to want to sing at a particular song circle.*   If you happen to have that song in a notebook (which I've seen many people bring with them to song circles), I think it can be a better contribution to go ahead and do the song, glancing at your song sheet before or even during your performance, than to skip the song just so you can do one that you've practiced more recently.


*This often happens in the "piggybacking" phenomenon that Mary Garvey talks about - where, especially in "chaos mode," a song one person sings brings to mind another that you think would be an especially good fit.   There's a good chance you weren't anticipating performing that song and didn't rehearse it for the spontaneous, informal gathering.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Soldier boy
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 08:18 PM

Raggytash, you have so far failed to PM me with date, time and venue for the Runswick Boat bash so I was beginning to believe that I had been consigned to one of the 'excluded' list. So please PM me with details.

Howard J, I have been there, done that and got the tea shirt.
And I agree, it's not the same nowadays.
I recall great singarounds in The Dungeon Gill in Upper Langdale in The Lakes, brilliant sessions where everyone joined in, but it doesn't happen today!
But keep on trying anyway Howard.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Raggytash
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 07:40 PM

Chris, I've learnt something from this thread............. learn the song in front of the mirror............... throw the book away..........end of debate.............and you'll probably be a far better singer for it.

Cheers, hope to see you in March.