Subject: RE: Pennsylvania mine disaster-MIRACLE!! From: GUEST Date: 01 Aug 02 - 09:43 AM Here is a link to PA's Dept of Deep Mining Safety, which is very interesting reading about mining disasters like the Jacobs Creek explosion in the Darr mine in 1908. 239 miners were killed a few days before Christmas. Also has information about the robber barons/mining wars too: http://www.dep.state.pa.us/dep/deputate/minres/dms/website/papers/minedisasters.htm |
Subject: RE: Pennsylvania mine disaster-MIRACLE!! From: Nigel Parsons Date: 01 Aug 02 - 05:18 AM McGofH: "Basically because if you own a coalmine it's not worth anything if you can't get people to dig it out; and if you are in a mining community it's about the only work around." This is why pits in UK are closing, they can't dig it out and still sell it at a profit, when external sources are cheaper. Of course this means that if the requirement for coal does not go away, eventually either prices from abroad will rise, or UK will be the only country left with reserves because of all the closed (but workable) mines Nigel
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Subject: RE: Pennsylvania mine disaster-MIRACLE!! From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 31 Jul 02 - 08:25 PM Basically because if you own a coalmine it's not worth anything if you can't get people to dig it out; and if you are in a mining community it's about the only work around.
Money. |
Subject: RE: Pennsylvania mine disaster-MIRACLE!! From: SharonA Date: 31 Jul 02 - 10:11 AM Bill, I didn't say the world should use coal. The question was "why are people still doing this?" and my answer was that the world does use so much coal that it would take a long time to retool the world's industry in order for it to use alternative sources of energy. From what little I've read, it seems that the EU is already so much less dependent on coal than it had been that the coal industry sees its future there as a "challenge" (i.e. they're worried!). So perhaps this is the beginning of progress; a few decades or centuries down the road, the world may not use coal anymore at all. But in the meantime, people will still be "doing this." |
Subject: RE: Pennsylvania mine disaster-MIRACLE!! From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy Date: 31 Jul 02 - 09:29 AM Just because we use coal for something is not a reason to continue to use coal for something. We have no business generating electricty by burning coal to heat water etc. And the history of coal mining in Kentucky, West Virginia, Ohio, is one of shame, corruption. Interesting that one of the miners, when asked why he does it, said it was because it paid $15. an hour, and he couldn't make that much doing anything else. That is at the heart of all the Enron, World Com, etc. problems, and the reason that Capitalism as it is practised today must someday be replaced with another system. We need to demand a fair living wage, a maximum wage, not a minimum wage, & no private ownership of natural resources, which ultimately belong to the world. Same story about the women in Africa protesting Chevron, and why we are bombing Afghanistan and why we want to invade Iraq. Some oil industry execs want to get their grubby little hands on the oil, pay hardworking people the least they can to do the dangerous and difficult work, do little or nothing for the people who live there, pay off the people in power, people they 'can do business with', ie, corrupt, and ultimately amass as much money as they can, and subvert the peoples' will to their own by buying the government, and get the tax payers to give them a handout at the public trough of corporate welfare to boot, and then move an office off shore so they pay no taxes, but in some cases actually get tax credit refunds! The gall, the greed, the grief.
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Subject: RE: Pennsylvania mine disaster-MIRACLE!! From: CapriUni Date: 31 Jul 02 - 08:39 AM Yeah, I heard about that overtime thing on the news, too... and it was being presented as if it was this great and generous offer. Humpf!!
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Subject: RE: Pennsylvania mine disaster-MIRACLE!! From: SharonA Date: 31 Jul 02 - 08:32 AM Oh, yes, and – on a wry note – I hear on the news that the mining company in Somerset is going to pay those trapped miners overtime for the time they were trapped. Big whoop-de-doo. Not even double-overtime! Not a lot of compensation for all their physican and mental trauma, nor for the delayed-stress symptoms that are sure to follow. Some of the miners have announced already that they're not going back underground (although, as I said before, one guy intends to go back). |
Subject: RE: Pennsylvania mine disaster-MIRACLE!! From: SharonA Date: 31 Jul 02 - 08:16 AM Why are we still doing this? Coal provides about 38% of the world's electricity and is used in iron production and nearly 70% of the world's steel production, and it is also the main binding ingredient in concrete, according to The World Coal Institute (http://www.wci-coal.com/web/content.php?menu_id=5.9.1). There's a LOT of industry that would have to be shifted away from coal usage, across the world, before the world would stop mining it. |
Subject: RE: Pennsylvania mine disaster-MIRACLE!! From: katlaughing Date: 30 Jul 02 - 07:48 PM Good points, Bill Kennedy, about why are we still doing this. |
Subject: RE: Pennsylvania mine disaster-MIRACLE!! From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 30 Jul 02 - 07:32 PM And this one of course, whuch I quoted at the start of the thread. |
Subject: RE: Pennsylvania mine disaster-MIRACLE!! From: Gareth Date: 30 Jul 02 - 07:10 PM Gareth |
Subject: RE: Pennsylvania mine disaster-MIRACLE!! From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy Date: 30 Jul 02 - 09:29 AM definitely NOT a miracle, just hard work from committed people on top, & correct action from experienced cool-headed miners down below. No angels, no divine intervention. Does makes you wonder why people are still doing this. We shouldn't be burning coal for most things any way, and it shouldn't be the 'property' of some 'owner' who can exploit labor to mine his riches for him. Makes me want to sing Merle Travis' 'Dark as a Dungeon' a few hundred times. |
Subject: RE: Pennsylvania mine disaster-MIRACLE!! From: GUEST,McGrath of Harlow Date: 29 Jul 02 - 03:30 PM But wouldn't it just be a great Radio Ballad, with the voices of the miners and the rescuers, and the technical guys and the families who waited, and the union organisers. And the songs growing out of the interviews, and holding it together.
Why not? Why should we see the work of Charles Parker and Ewan MacColl as just a historical curiosity, and not as a signpost pointing us down a road that hasn't been travelled yet? |
Subject: RE: Pennsylvania mine disaster-MIRACLE!! From: SharonA Date: 29 Jul 02 - 02:42 PM Speaking of the noise of modern equipment... One of the things the trapped miners said after the rescue is that they had never stopped tapping to let those above know they were alive. As was noted in the article Spaw posted, most of the time they could not be heard above the noise of the rescue equipment. BTW, this excerpt from the following article details the modern equipment and method used to find the spot to dig the first hole (to pump in hot air): http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/07/28/mine.turning.point/index.html The Man Behind the Miracle July 29, 2002 Posted: 1:31 PM EDT (1731 GMT) By Jeff Goodell, Special to CNN.com
SOMERSET, Pennsylvania (CNN) -- ....Bob Long, 37, is an engineer technician for Civil Mining Environmental Engineering Inc. in Somerset. He's a modest guy, dressed in shorts and Nike sandals, with three gold chains around his neck.... In the back of his Chevy Blazer is about $60,000 worth of high-tech surveying equipment that Long used in the early hours of the rescue operation to decide exactly where to drill the first hole that located the miners. It was a crucial decision -- and it may well have been the turning point of the entire rescue operation. "If we would have been wrong," Long says, "this might have been a recovery operation, not a rescue." |
Subject: RE: Pennsylvania mine disaster-MIRACLE!! From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 29 Jul 02 - 01:33 PM I don't think there's be much likelihood of anyone from these irony soaked islands taking that "What took you guys so long?" as anything but a joke (possibly intended also as a comment on how remarkably fast the rescue work was done.)
But there are some people out in the cyberworld who might have a problem picking that up - after all it didn't come with an emoticon attached. So I thought it a good idea to mark it up.
Technology- I suppose they could have some kind of echo sounding device that would tell you when there was a water filled cavern on the other site of a wall. I suspect that in the old days, doing it with a pick and shovel, a canny miner would have very likely been able to tell by the sound - but the modern equipment would drown that out. So the modern technology could well be a key element in causing the disaster, as well as in the rescue.
But if Joe Jashienski is right, the essential thing was the greed of a mine owner, as so often before. |
Subject: RE: Pennsylvania mine disaster-MIRACLE!! From: Kim C Date: 29 Jul 02 - 12:53 PM I am relieved all have been rescued. What surprises me just a little, though, is that an accident like that can still happen in the Age of Advanced Technology. I guess there are some things that haven't caught up. At least the technology was there to get them out. |
Subject: RE: Pennsylvania mine disaster-MIRACLE!! From: SharonA Date: 29 Jul 02 - 12:28 PM Oops! Yes, I really do know how to spell "acknowledgment"; I just don't always know how to type! *sheesh* Sorry. |
Subject: RE: Pennsylvania mine disaster-MIRACLE!! From: SharonA Date: 29 Jul 02 - 11:15 AM Kevin (McGrath): Oh, yes, the "What took you guys so long?" comment was definitely a joke! My immediate reaction upon hearing about it, as a fellow American and a fellow Pennsylvanian, was to smile and chuckle a bit in appreciation of the joke. It's your basic acknoledgment-of-fear-but-refusal-to-show-it directly sort of humor. It never occurred to me that anyone would read it and interpret it as a complaint... but then, I'm not looking at it from outside the American culture! |
Subject: RE: Pennsylvania mine disaster-MIRACLE!! From: Mrrzy Date: 29 Jul 02 - 10:27 AM And only one apparently has the bends, wow! DEFINITELY folksong fodder! |
Subject: Lyr Add: DUW IT'S HARD (Max Boyce) From: Nigel Parsons Date: 29 Jul 02 - 10:19 AM At this point, All I can add is a song by Max Boyce, on the closure of Welsh coal mines.
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Subject: RE: Pennsylvania mine disaster-MIRACLE!! From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 29 Jul 02 - 09:58 AM < a href="http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,764730,00.html">Here's a link to piece in today's Guardian which fills in a few aspects.
I think we can take it that ""What took you guys so long?" is a joke, rather than a complaint.
And here's a particularly thought-provoking quote:
Amid the celebrations, one former miner and organiser of the union "local", Joe Jashienski, said he knew the mines were not as they appeared on maps. "The last day they worked, they made this big space, as big as a ballfield, but they didn't put it on the map, because different people owned some of the coal." A senior person at the mine, which was then under different ownership, "didn't want nobody to know what he'd done because he didn't want to pay the royalty on it", Mr Jashienski claimed yesterday.
And that, it appears, was why the miners this week were nearly killed, when they broke through into the flooded section that wasn't on the map.
But the more important quote really is this one:
...the nine soon became trapped in cold water which rose, at one point, to their necks. Doctors yesterday reported that they had hugged each other to maintain their body temperatures. They were "supporting each other, literally at times," Mr Schweiker said in a television interview. If one was cold, "another two or three would literally hug him, surround him, give him their body warmth".
One society can produce miners like that, and rescue workers like that, and people like the firefighters of September 11 - and the crooked accountants and fatcat executives of companies like Enron and Anderson and so forth. And who is it gets the big money rewards and the fancy lifestyle - and most of the time, the media worship and the applause?
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Subject: RE: Pennsylvania mine disaster-MIRACLE!! From: SharonA Date: 29 Jul 02 - 09:11 AM Yes, it was indeed marvelous. Very, very, very, very good news. John Gray, I'm sure that the trapped miners gave credit to the many people who worked so hard to free them. It's just that not every sound bite makes it to the airwaves. Certainly, I saw video clips on the TV news over the last several days wherein spokesmen for the rescuers and for the miners' families acknowledged the tireless effort being made and thanked those who were making it. By the way, Somerset is about 25 miles, more or less, from Johnstown, PA, site of the famous flood of 1889. The area has quite a history of disaster. This time, fortunately, the loss of life was averted. One of the reasons for that was the quick thinking of, and cooperation between, the trapped miners themselves. They made the decision early on that they would either live as a group or die as a group. They tied themselves together so that, if anyone did perish, the body would not be swept away by the water. They huddled together to share body heat. They worked together to conserve the battery life of their helmet lights. And, of course, they talked to one another to keep the spirit of the group from falling into despair. One of the sound bites I heard was a comment from one of the trapped miners that he was eager to recuperate from this ordeal and go back to work down in the mines! We are talking about a unique breed of people here!! |
Subject: RE: Pennsylvania mine disaster-MIRACLE!! From: GUEST,John Gray @ work Date: 29 Jul 02 - 04:03 AM Yes, its absolutely marvellous that all those good men got out alive. I caught 3 of them on the news, giving brief comments about coming out alive, and they were all to do with praying and God and so forth. I don't have a problem with those of a religious bent but I thought they could have somewhere fitted in that their rescue was also due to the hard work, dedication and skill of their confederates toiling fevershly on the surface. FME / JG |
Subject: RE: Pennsylvania mine disaster-MIRACLE!! From: catspaw49 Date: 29 Jul 02 - 03:00 AM BLACK HUMOR ALERT: Well nuts......Rescued huh? A perfectly good song or dozen shot to hell. (Truly a miracle) Spaw |
Subject: RE: Pennsylvania mine disaster-MIRACLE!! From: Liz the Squeak Date: 29 Jul 02 - 02:18 AM Thank you little elf for changing the title.... and Capri for that little bit of extra information. Someone was indeed feeling generous. LTS |
Subject: RE: Pennsylvania mine disaster-MIRACLE!! From: CapriUni Date: 28 Jul 02 - 08:00 PM More on the Miracle Front: ABC's (American Broadcasting Company) World News Tonight showed a soundbite of one of the rescuers saying that if the first drill bit hadn't broken, delaying the drilling by many hours, than they would have reached the chamber before enough water had been pumped out -- they would've hit water instead of air, which would've been a real disaster. Angels and gods were working overtime, this time, it seems... |
Subject: RE: Pennsylvania mine disaster From: Gareth Date: 28 Jul 02 - 04:29 PM Some one up there smiled, thank God. Gareth |
Subject: RE: Pennsylvania mine disaster From: The Walrus Date: 28 Jul 02 - 04:24 PM After the news coming out of the Ukrane and from Moscow, it's great to have some *GOOD* news for a change. Well done to all the rescue crew. Walrus |
Subject: RE: Pennsylvania mine disaster From: Escamillo Date: 28 Jul 02 - 04:09 PM My day too. Rescuers seem to be the heroes of these days of general lack of solidarity. There IS hope. Un abrazo - Andrés |
Subject: RE: Pennsylvania mine disaster From: alanabit Date: 28 Jul 02 - 03:45 PM Some good news at last. Made my day. |
Subject: RE: Pennsylvania mine disaster From: Liz the Squeak Date: 28 Jul 02 - 03:09 PM Can we change the name of the thread to Pennsylv. Mine Miracle? Beyond all hope.... no words to add. LTS |
Subject: RE: Pennsylvania mine disaster From: The Pooka Date: 28 Jul 02 - 01:48 PM Hurrrrrrrrah!!! Finally, a happy outcome. Miraculous. A great tribute to the brave tough miners (all 9 of them middle-aged btw, I read, not a young whippersnapper among 'em) and to the indefatigable & very smart rescuers. Now --- how 'bout a collaborative Mudcat mine-disaster song with this happy ending? Y'know, like The Mary Ellen Carter, or something. (Protest-y verses re dangers and conditions can still be included, if yez want.) / Hmmph? Nono, I ain't got the talent to write 'em; I just suggest 'em. / Like a bigfat CEO, yknow. :) |
Subject: RE: Pennsylvania mine disaster From: Jeri Date: 28 Jul 02 - 01:21 PM There's a story here. |
Subject: RE: Pennsylvania mine disaster From: Mudlark Date: 28 Jul 02 - 11:47 AM mg, thanks for the song! What great news to wake up to! |
Subject: RE: Pennsylvania mine disaster From: katlaughing Date: 28 Jul 02 - 10:50 AM mg, beautiful song!! |
Subject: RE: Pennsylvania mine disaster From: Genie Date: 28 Jul 02 - 04:36 AM Great news! |
Subject: RE: Pennsylvania mine disaster From: Chip2447 Date: 28 Jul 02 - 03:49 AM all are out alive and not suffering from the incident as badly as was expected... |
Subject: RE: Pennsylvania mine disaster From: Genie Date: 28 Jul 02 - 03:17 AM Are the last two out yet? |
Subject: RE: Pennsylvania mine disaster From: Genie Date: 28 Jul 02 - 03:14 AM I just heard on the 11:00 PM news (PST) that all nine are alive and expected to be OK. FANTASTIC NEWS! Genie |
Subject: RE: Pennsylvania mine disaster From: GUEST,mg Date: 28 Jul 02 - 03:02 AM years ago I used to go to these Welsh music sings...they were wonderful..there was a church in Seattle that I think was predominantly Welsh..might even have had services in Welsh...it was near Seattle Community College...had something to do with the funeral home right near by..Bonney???something...anyway, they could sure sing. And a troop of them would always come from Black Diamond. They were the old miners. Black Diamond Washington..Renton..Issaquah..all old mining towns...fires were still burning a few years ago in some of the mines..my brother told me there were places in Issaquah where you could just fall into old shafts etc... anyway, I went to Black Diamond to the graveyard one day...there was a gravestone with five Italian names and one maybe Welsh??? Something else anyway... Anyway, here is a song that came from that..
Black as a miner's face |
Subject: RE: Pennsylvania mine disaster From: katlaughing Date: 28 Jul 02 - 02:36 AM Looks like one more, now and the last two to come shortly. There's a photo on the main page of the www.drudge.com report with this story: By Judy Lin Associated Press Writer Sunday, July 28, 2002; 2:13 AM SOMERSET, Pa. –– Rescue workers on Sunday began pulling nine miners from the watery, 240-foot-deep shaft where they had been trapped for three days, a jubilant reward for an effort that had been fraught with one gut-wrenching setback after another. The seventh of nine coal miners emerged around 2:20 a.m. All nine miners were found alive Saturday night 240 feet underground, and rescuers rushed to pull them from the flooded shaft. After crews struggled two giant drills for more than 74 frustrating hours without signs of life, Gov. Mark Schweiker appeared before reporters Saturday night and raised his fists over his head. All nine are alive," he said. "And we believe that all nine are in pretty good shape." Randy Fogle, 43, of Garrett, was the first to be pulled from the 26-inch wide hole. He had reported feeling "some heart stress" while still in the mine. Officials identified the next six miners rescued as Harry Mayhugh, Tom Foy, John Unger, John Phillippi, Ron Hileman and Dennis J. Hall. Officials said they would be able to pull the miners up one at a time at roughly 10- to 15-minute intervals. © 2002 The Associated Press |
Subject: RE: Pennsylvania mine disaster From: GUEST,mg Date: 28 Jul 02 - 02:28 AM I THINK there are 6 out now..in good shape..one iwth mild heart symptoms. mg |
Subject: RE: Pennsylvania mine disaster From: rangeroger Date: 28 Jul 02 - 01:24 AM The report I just read said they have been in contact. All 9 are alive and doing very well and the first one has been pulled up and out in a special rescue capsule. rr |
Subject: RE: Pennsylvania mine disaster From: katlaughing Date: 28 Jul 02 - 01:13 AM They just ran a news flash across the bottom of our tv screen saying they were all alive and had been reached. |
Subject: RE: Pennsylvania mine disaster From: wysiwyg Date: 28 Jul 02 - 12:10 AM Ob tourse! Always. ~S~ |
Subject: RE: Pennsylvania mine disaster From: Sorcha Date: 28 Jul 02 - 12:01 AM OK. In my own way. |
Subject: RE: Pennsylvania mine disaster From: wysiwyg Date: 27 Jul 02 - 11:50 PM I believe the concern over decompression is about increased air pressure from the water levels. ~S~ |
Subject: RE: Pennsylvania mine disaster From: wysiwyg Date: 27 Jul 02 - 11:48 PM On miner is having some minor cardiac stress, a doctor was talking to him... If you can "see" these details please pray over them. ~S~ |
Subject: RE: Pennsylvania mine disaster From: wysiwyg Date: 27 Jul 02 - 11:46 PM CNN live now. ~S~ |
Subject: RE: Pennsylvania mine disaster From: Sorcha Date: 27 Jul 02 - 11:46 PM Thank you Susan, for the update. |
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