BS: Popular views on McCain

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Amos
Date: 22 May 08 - 11:46 PM

Obama and McCain have been trading jabs over a Veteran's Aid bill which Obama supports and McCain opposes.

Some comments:

"The strange thing about the statement is he attacks Obama, but praises his friend Jim Webb for taking the exact same position.

Why does he say Obama have "less than zero understanding of" the issue while saying he would "never suggest that [Webb] has anything other than the best of intentions to honor the service of deserving veterans."

McCain can't have it both ways. He seems to be so over the top in his (or whoever drafted it for him) attack. If Obama has zero understanding, then it seems Webb would. And if Webb has the best of intentions, than it would seem Obama does.

Posted by: Steve Rhodes | May 22, 2008 at 07:10 PM
The reason why Obama gets under his skin is he knows he's a formidable opponent and he's worried. He knows that Obama has a point on this issue that makes him (McCain) look bad.

Posted by: Elizabeth | May 22, 2008 at 07:19 PM
Maybe McCain should take time out his schedule to show up for a vote that benefits veterans. Maybe McCain should do that instead of raging at someone asking a legitimate question.

John McCain: There for Veterans....Unless He's Busy Campaigning

Posted by: Chris | May 22, 2008 at 07:37 PM
the straight-talk express is :

NEVER .......

straight and: mighty "slow" !

Posted by: J | May 22, 2008 at 07:39 PM
Me thinks McCain doth protest too much.
If the barb was made by one who's views are without merit, then why dignify it with a response? This makes McCain sound very insecure (not to mention immature)."

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Amos
Date: 22 May 08 - 11:29 PM

Not in Hagee's wold view--the return to Israel was preordained thousands of years ago and Hitler was God's way of showing he was pissed that it was taking too long to get organized. He doesn't mean Israel, the legal nation, but Israel, the spiritual home of Judaism. But it's still a crank call not matter how reasonably one gussies it up.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 May 08 - 09:49 PM

Yeah, but don't you think people would notice that Hitler expired in 1945, and the modern state of Israel wasn't established until 1948. I mean, isn't there an element of disconnect there?

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Amos
Date: 22 May 08 - 08:22 PM

I don't think he is held to the same logical standards as the rest of us, Rig...


A

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 May 08 - 06:45 PM

"...yesterday, a recording surfaced of Hagee "explaining" that God sent Hitler to perpetrate the Holocaust because Jews weren't moving to Israel..."

                           I'd never heard that one before, but doesn't he have his history twisted?

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Amos
Date: 22 May 08 - 05:55 PM

ohn McCain, who at one point actively pursued an endorsement from controversial pastor John Hagee, just severed ties after reports surfaced of yet more incendiary comments by the conservative minister -- this time targeting Jews.

The comments came in the late 1990s, when Hagee said that the Nazis were doing God's work to shepherd Jews to Palestine. Hagee also has referred to the Catholic Church as "the Great Whore." McCain earlier disassociated himself from Hagee's comments but kept the endorsement. This afternoon, he jettisoned the endorsement.

But he also tooks pains to point out his "minister problem" is different from the one that Barack Obama has been dealing with.

ÒObviously, I find these remarks and others deeply offensive and indefensible, and I repudiate them. I did not know of them before Rev. Hagee's endorsement, and I feel I must reject his endorsement as well. I have said I do not believe Sen. Obama shares Rev. Wright's extreme views. But let me also be clear, Rev. Hagee was not and is not my pastor or spiritual advisor, and I did not attend his church for 20 years. I have denounced statements he made immediately upon learning of them, as I do again today."

-- Scott Martelle

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Amos
Date: 22 May 08 - 05:41 PM

There's a long and disgusting history of people blaming the Jews for their own persecution. The latest to do so is one of John McCain's key backersÑPastor John Hagee.

McCain actively sought Hagee's backing and says he's "very honored"1 and "very proud"2 to have it. But yesterday, a recording surfaced of Hagee "explaining" that God sent Hitler to perpetrate the Holocaust because Jews weren't moving to Israel.

It's hard to overstate how deeply offensive these views are. And how disturbing it is when John McCain aligns himself with extreme religious right leaders like Hagee, while ducking responsibility for their hateful views.

J Street, a new progressive Jewish group, is asking John McCain to renounce Hagee and send a clear message that it's absolutely intolerable to blame Jews for the Holocaust. You can sign on to their petition here:

http://www.moveon.org/r?r=3689&id=12704-137503-c_hPy_&t=1

MoveOn members have already confronted McCain over Hagee's comments on Hurricane Katrina, but he refused to reject Hagee's support. We need to turn up the heat. Please help us send a message that hate has no place in American politics.

(MoveOn.org Political Action Team)

P.S. As J Street points out, it's not just Hagee's views toward Jews that are outrageous. From their alert: "This is the same John Hagee whose support John McCain is 'glad' to have despite 'condemning' some of his views.3 And it's the same John Hagee who has so far had to apologize for calling the Catholic Church a 'great whore' 4 and who said Hurricane Katrina was the judgment of God against New Orleans for planning a gay pride parade.5"

And if you want to see Hagee's actual comments, here they are, as reported today by the Huffington Post:6


Going in and out of biblical verse, Hagee preached: "'And they the hunters should hunt them,' that will be the Jews. 'From every mountain and from every hill and from out of the holes of the rocks.' If that doesn't describe what Hitler did in the holocaust you can't see that."

He goes on: "Theodore Hertzel is the father of Zionism. He was a Jew who at the turn of the 19th century said, this land is our land, God wants us to live there. So he went to the Jews of Europe and said 'I want you to come and join me in the land of Israel.' So few went that Hertzel went into depression. Those who came founded Israel; those who did not went through the hell of the holocaust.

"Then god sent a hunter. A hunter is someone with a gun and he forces you. Hitler was a hunter. And the Bible saysÑJeremiah writingÑ'They shall hunt them from every mountain and from every hill and from the holes of the rocks,' meaning there's no place to hide. And that might be offensive to some people but don't let your heart be offended. I didn't write it, Jeremiah wrote it. It was the truth and it is the truth. How did it happen? Because God allowed it to happen. Why did it happen? Because God said my top priority for the Jewish people is to get them to come back to the land of Israel."


Sources:

1. "McCain 'Very Honored' By Support Of Pastor Preaching 'End-Time Confrontation With Iran'," Think Progress, February 28, 2008.
http://www.moveon.org/r?r=3553&id=12704-137503-c_hPy_&t=2

2. "The McCain/Hagee story picks up steam," Salon, February 29, 2008.
http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/02/29/hagee/

3. "McCain Admits Hagee Endorsement Was A Mistake," ABC News, April 20, 2008.
http://www.moveon.org/r?r=3685&id=12704-137503-c_hPy_&t=3

4. Press Release, John Hagee Ministries Website.
http://www.moveon.org/r?r=3688&id=12704-137503-c_hPy_&t=4

5. "Pastor John Hagee on Christian Zionism," NPR, May 22, 2008.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=6097362

6. "McCain Backer Hagee Said Hitler Was Fulfilling God's Will," Huffington Post, May 21, 2008.
http://www.moveon.org/r?r=3687&id=12704-137503-c_hPy_&t=5

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Amos
Date: 22 May 08 - 04:54 PM

WASHINGTON, May 22 (UPI) -- Lobbyist Charles Black, a friend and key adviser to U.S. Sen. John McCain, has come under fire for his representing foreign interests, including dictators.

U.S. Justice Department Foreign Agents Registration Act records submitted by Black's firm describe lobbying efforts during the 1980s on behalf of brutal Angolan guerrilla leader Jonas Savimbi, who was fighting the country's Marxist government, The Washington Post reported Thursday.

Black's firm also represented other U.S.-backed leaders with dismal human rights records, including Philippine's Ferdinand Marcos, Zaire's Mobutu Sese Seko, Nigerian Gen. Ibrahim Babangida and Somali President Mohamed Siad Barre.

Democrats say they want the presumptive Republican presidential nominee to fire Black because of his client list.

McCain, R-Ariz., "portrays himself as Mr. Clean, and then he has all these lobbyists around him who are connected to a lot of not-so-clean people," said Paul Light, a public service professor at New York University.

Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., can paint McCain as a Washington insider, Light told the Post, "and what could be more Washington-esque than having a dictator as a client?"

Republicans counter that Obama's hands aren't clean. They note that while Obama doesn't accept donations from lobbyists, the senator has had lobbyists informally advising him.

100

A

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 May 08 - 03:24 AM

When Schlafly started out, years ago, one of her major themes was that a woman's place is in the home- she was death on 'radical feminists'- but she was on the road away from her large family.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Amos
Date: 21 May 08 - 06:05 PM

Meanwhile, in the McCain Camp: The Arizona SenatorÕs campaign suffered another resignation Tuesday, the fifth in recent days. Mr. McCainÕs ad whiz Mark McKinnon announced he was leaving, keeping a promise he made last year not to work against an Obama candidacy.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 May 08 - 04:53 PM

Yeah, well he wouldn't have to be very good to be better than Phyllis.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Amos
Date: 21 May 08 - 04:32 PM

He was a better girl than she was, I am sure...


A

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 May 08 - 03:51 PM

"...said Phyllis Schlafly, head of the Eagle Forum, a pro-family group that held a private meeting for conservatives yesterday in a Washington hotel."

                  Phyllis Schlafly used to go after gays that way as well, until it was announced that her son turned out to be gay.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Amos
Date: 21 May 08 - 02:54 PM

These people certainly enjoy negative hyperbolic styles of speech, don't they? Did they go to special classes in fear-mongering to learn to make statement like that? National rampage??? A sea of left wing extremism?? These are ridiculous statements on the face of it, a souped up fright-stew of unwarranted generalizations and push-button thought processes; the authors should be ashamed to be seen in public with such rhetoric.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 May 08 - 02:19 PM

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High-court fears drive conservatives to rally around McCain, overlook flaws
By Ralph Z. Hallow
May 21, 2008
Prominent conservatives and activists are indicating they will put aside their differences with presumptive Republican presidential nominee Sen. John McCain and rally their supporters to his side because of one issue: federal judgeships.

In big gatherings and small, in e-mails and one-on-one conversations, conservative opinion leaders fear a Democratic president, especially Sen. Barack Obama, will use the presidential power to appoint federal judges who will remove references to God and religious symbols from public places.

They predict the incoming president likely will fill more vacancies on the federal bench over the next four years than at any time in recent memory, giving a Democratic administration the power to shape the courts to reflect a liberal worldview.

The American Civil Liberties Union "has been on a national rampage to remove God from every public place: the Pledge of Allegiance, the Ten Commandments, plaques in courthouses, the Boys Scouts when they meet on public property," said Phyllis Schlafly, head of the Eagle Forum, a pro-family group that held a private meeting for conservatives yesterday in a Washington hotel.

"These subjects should get out on the table so people understand what's going on in the courts," she said.

Peter J. Ferrara, general counsel to the conservative legal rights group American Civil Rights Union, said, "McCain said he'd appoint people like [Supreme Court Chief Justice John] Roberts and [Justice Samuel] Alito. Obama is saying he'd name people like [Justices Ruth Bader] Ginsberg and [David] Souter."

Conservatives consider the latter pair to be the two most consistently liberal Supreme Court justices.

"Obama is swimming in a sea of left-wing extremism with the Rev. Jeremiah Wright [Mr. Obama's former pastor] and [violent radical activist and Obama acquaintance] Bill Ayers and the rest of them," said Mr. Ferrara, a former Reagan White House aide.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Amos
Date: 21 May 08 - 02:12 PM

IF he was disabled before the nomination, I would think Paul would have an excellent chance of being chosen. But it is the Convention, not the caucus voters, who are selecting a nominee. So it could be someone they decided was a best bet who wasn't even in the primariy race. This is why the use of the word "disenfranchisement" is inaccurate in respect to the Dems in FL and Michigan. There is no franchise for the primaries, from a constitutional viewpoint; there is an inviolable one for the actual elections.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 May 08 - 01:18 PM

I wonder: If something age related happened to McCain, would that make Ron Paul the nominee, because he's the only other Republican still in the race?

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Kim C
Date: 21 May 08 - 10:26 AM

McCain at least has a sense of humor. He was on SNL last week poking fun at his "oldness."

I think this is going to be a Libertarian year for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Amos
Date: 21 May 08 - 10:16 AM

On Nader, Barr and McCain:


"In 2000, most Democrats found Mr. Nader to be amusing. In 2004, he was aggravating. When he announced earlier this year that he was thinking about another campaign, he was almost assaulted.

But when former Congressman Bob Barr declared recently that he planned to run for president as the Libertarian Party nominee this year, he heard barely a peep from either the Republican leadership or grassroots. Mr. Barr's candidacy would hijack votes away from Mr. McCain just like Mr. Nader did to Mr. Gore eight years ago. But the howls of outrage from the left that greeted Mr. Nader's announcement were not mirrored by conservative anger toward Mr. Barr. The Republican base did not rush to his candidacy either. Rather, most G.O.P. regulars just shrugged.

Shrugging is rarely the indicator of a motivated political party. And Republicans seem particularly unenthused. Worse, 12 years of a G.O.P. congressional majority have added to the complacency, and two years under Speaker Nancy Pelosi and Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid don't seem to have been enough to rouse the party faithful.
John McCain has no shortage of challenges in this uphill race. He is taking on the war debate full force, and is working hard to convince voters that his path toward eventual peace is less risky than Barack Obama's.

While he carries the burden of a recession that most voters attach to the current administration, Mr. McCain argues strenuously that tax increases during tough economic times is unwise. He turns questions about his age into answers about experience and preparation. Uphill fights all, but none more challenging than the broader task of reinvigorating a dispirited Republican Party."
NYT

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Amos
Date: 19 May 08 - 05:43 PM

Move On urges:

John McCain's chief adviser--Charlie Black--is a lobbyist who worked for
some of the world's worst dictators.1

Now McCain is facing a growing lobbyist scandal--in the past week, five of
his top aides have been forced to resign after revelations about their
lobbying.2 But he's still standing by Charlie Black.3

Black himself told NBC that nobody cares about his ties to mass murderers
and tyrants.4 That's not true.

When you call, be polite, personal, and brief. If the line is busy, it's
because so many people are outraged. Please hang up and try again.

Charlie Black's deal-making goes far beyond the usual corporate lobbying
we've come to expect. His lobbying firm worked for evil men--mass
murderers, terrorists, and tyrants. This is a moral issue.

The firm run by Charlie Black made millions helping burnish the image of
people like:

* Ferdinand Marcos, who executed thousands of his own citizens in the
    Philippines,
* Zaire's Mobutu, who publicly hanged his opponents and looted his
    country's vast mineral wealth, and
* rebel leader Jonas Savimbi, a mass murderer, who covered Angola with
    landmines.

For thorough documentation of Charlie Black's lobbying work, click here.

In the wake of Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo Bay, we can't afford a president
whose closest adviser lacks a moral compass.

Ask John McCain to fire Charlie Black right away. You can call him at:

John McCain Campaign Headquarters
Phone: [phone]


...

--Noah, Peter, Michael, Matt, and the MoveOn.org Political Action Team
Monday, May 19th, 2008

P.S. This fact sheet documents Charlie Black's lobbying work in detail:

http://pol.moveon.org/charlieblack/video.html#facts?id=12678-7901518-RaJXJc&t=16

Sources:
1. http://pol.moveon.org/charlieblack/video.html#facts?id=12678-7901518-RaJXJc&t=17

2. "A Fifth Top Aide to McCain Resigns," Washington Post, May 19, 2008
http://www.moveon.org/r?r=3662&id=12678-7901518-RaJXJc&t=18

3. Ibid.

4. "Adviser Calls Lobbyist Scrutiny 'Nonsense,'" MSNBC, May 19, 2008
http://www.moveon.org/r?r=3663&id=12678-7901518-RaJXJc&t=19

Support our member-driven organization: MoveOn.org Political Action is
entirely funded by our 3.2 million members. We have no corporate
contributors, no foundation grants, no money from unions. Our tiny staff
ensures that small contributions go a long way. If you'd like to support
our work, you can give now at:

http://political.moveon.org/donate/email.html?id=12678-7901518-RaJXJc&t=20

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Amos
Date: 19 May 08 - 10:58 AM

I am all for bringing sides together.

Obama does plenty, BTW -- right know what he is doing is running for election.

ANyway, union of interests is a great starting point, just as it was for the thirteen Colonies who started the United States. Like them, the union of interests has to be tempered with the respect of individual and regional self-determination under the umbrella laws of union. THis can be a tricky balance, one which has suffered over the years as the WHite House migrated more and more toward plenipotentiary executive predominance.

All Iam saying is that the checks and balances in such a great scheme need to be identified and implemented with thoughtful care to avoid making an earth-mover without a conscience, like the Rove-Cheney axis, and also avoiding creating a conscience without movement, as is sometimes seen in the UN.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 May 08 - 10:33 AM

"The Concert of Democracies scheme was further elaborated last year by Ivo Daalder and James Lindsay, who argued in an article in the American Interest that it could encompass up to 60 nations, including 28 of the 30 largest economies. Daalder, who was a foreign policy coordinator for Howard Dean in 2004, is now an adviser to Obama. In a response to the article, Anthony Lake, the candidate's senior foreign policy hand, said that "a functioning Concert of Democracies would not only be much in the American national interest . . . it could be, in important measure, transformative for the world." Daalder later co-authored an article in The Post supporting the idea with McCain adviser Robert Kagan, a forceful proponent in his own right -- which may explain the "neocon" smear. " "


I sort of though the idea of bring both sides together would be one you would want to see... Sort of having Obama actually "do" rather than "say"

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Amos
Date: 19 May 08 - 10:24 AM

The group's purpose would be ambitious: first to work within existing global institutions such as the United Nations; but in the event that those fail, to provide a framework for organizing and legitimizing international interventions, including the use of military force.

Well, it might be a spectacularly good idea; it could hypothetically provide a tipping point toward civilization through time, making a focused cohesive presence for the voice of reason and self-governance.

Conversely it could be misused to interrupt evolution toward self-governance, by forcing ideas down the throats of groups not able to assimilate them, culturally, as occurred in Iraq.

It would depend on the charter, and methods. I think it would be very worth trying. But it has serious risks which would have to be understood and managed from the beginning.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 May 08 - 10:01 AM

Amos,

Look at the article before you comment- Obama seems to support it as well. Or at least his advisors ...




"Pundits and bloggers have seized on the proposal as proof that McCain, like George W. Bush before him, is in thrall to the "radical neocons" who allegedly authored the war in Iraq.

They couldn't be more wrong. In fact, a league of democracies is not a new but a very old idea. In the past decade it has been promoted mostly by Democrats, including several of Barack Obama's top foreign policy advisers. And as the dramatic events in places such as Burma and Zimbabwe have demonstrated in recent weeks, it's not a utopian plan but a practical tool that the next president is very much going to need.

First let's dispose of the authorship question. The more academically minded, such as Princeton's G. John Ikenberry, trace the idea of a league of like-minded nation states to Immanuel Kant; more to the point, a prototype organization was created by the Clinton administration's secretary of state, Madeleine Albright, and democracy specialist Morton Halperin. Their Community of Democracies, founded in 2000, still exists but has been hamstrung by its initial decision to include numerous countries that are not, in fact, democracies -- such as Egypt, Jordan and Azerbaijan.

In 2006, Ikenberry and Anne-Marie Slaughter, the dean of Princeton's Woodrow Wilson School and a likely player in a Democratic administration, proposed a "Concert of Democracies" in the final report of the Princeton Project, a comprehensive review of national security they orchestrated. Under their plan, members of the alliance would have to be real democracies that held regular multiparty elections. The group's purpose would be ambitious: first to work within existing global institutions such as the United Nations; but in the event that those fail, to provide a framework for organizing and legitimizing international interventions, including the use of military force.

The Concert of Democracies scheme was further elaborated last year by Ivo Daalder and James Lindsay, who argued in an article in the American Interest that it could encompass up to 60 nations, including 28 of the 30 largest economies. Daalder, who was a foreign policy coordinator for Howard Dean in 2004, is now an adviser to Obama. In a response to the article, Anthony Lake, the candidate's senior foreign policy hand, said that "a functioning Concert of Democracies would not only be much in the American national interest . . . it could be, in important measure, transformative for the world." Daalder later co-authored an article in The Post supporting the idea with McCain adviser Robert Kagan, a forceful proponent in his own right -- which may explain the "neocon" smear. "

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Amos
Date: 19 May 08 - 09:54 AM

Another League? Didn't we try that under Wilson?

Is it actually going to be a league of democracies? Or (as I suspect) more on the lines of a Bushoid PLanetary Posse of International Corporate Vigilantes?


A

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 May 08 - 09:20 AM

Why would both McCain and top advisers to Obama endorse this allegedly radical idea? Let's let Lake answer: "One thing is clear," he wrote in the American Interest. "Crises in Iran, North Korea, Iraq and Darfur, not to mention the pressing need for more efficient peacekeeping operations, the rising temperatures of our seas and multiple other transnational threats, demonstrate not only the limits of American unilateral power but also the inability of international institutions designed in the middle of the 20th century to cope with the problems of the 21st."

In other words, a post-Cold War and post-George Bush United States will not have the capacity or the legitimacy to unilaterally take on global crises. But working through the United Nations, as Bush himself tried to do for the past several years, is more often than not a recipe for paralysis, because of the resistance of non-democratic states. Take the past few months: China, helped by Russia, has stopped the Security Council from discussing a humanitarian intervention to rescue the 1.5 million Burmese endangered by the criminal neglect of their government following a cyclone. Strong sanctions against Iran for its refusal to freeze its nuclear program have been blocked by Russia. An attempted U.N. intervention in Darfur is failing, largely because of Chinese and Russian refusal to authorize stronger measures against the government of Sudan.

Whether Obama or McCain, the next president will take office knowing that he inherits the messes in Darfur, Burma and Iran and also that new crises will erupt during his term. If he is unable to respond -- if he, like Bush, ends up watching as tens or hundreds of thousands of people die in a weak or failed state while China and Russia block U.N. action -- he will be harshly judged. That's why McCain has smartly begun to talk about his League of Democracies and promised early action to create it. If Obama is wise, he will make Daalder's Concert of Democracies part of his own campaign.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/18/AR2008051801909.html

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Amos
Date: 18 May 08 - 02:52 PM

The Real McCain from Brave New Films.

ALternate path here


A

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Amos
Date: 16 May 08 - 09:23 AM

'It should not be an extraordinary moment when a candidate for president declares allegiance to the Constitution, promises to not ignore or flagrantly violate laws, talks about ending a long and draining war and vows transparency in the Oval Office.

Such is the sorry state of affairs after seven years of Republican lawmakers' marching in mute lockstep with President Bush into one policy disaster after another. Senator John McCain scored some points on Thursday merely by acknowledging how much has to change.

Mr. McCain said in a speech that if elected, he will end the war in Iraq by the close of his first term; work in "concerted action" with other nations to counter the nuclear threats of Iran and North Korea; and eliminate a tax meant for the rich that is crushing the upper-middle class. He promised to not "subvert the purpose of legislation," as Mr. Bush has done, with signing statements; and to not seek to create, as Mr. Bush has done, an imperial presidency accountable to no person or institution. "The powers of the presidency are rightly checked by the other branches of government," he said.

He also repeated his pledge to tackle climate change and promised to institute a temporary worker program and "deal humanely with the millions of immigrants who have been in this country illegally."

It has, of course, taken the threat of a Republican electoral disaster to inspire these promises, and there were troubling parts of Mr. McCain's speech, including his reaffirmation of an extreme right-wing approach to judicial nominations.

Still, we were gratified to hear Mr. McCain acknowledge the many abuses and failures of the Bush presidency and pledge to not repeat them. Now we need some sign that other powerful Republicans agree with their candidate — and we need to hear much more from him about how he will keep his promises.

Mr. McCain said he would achieve victory in Iraq by 2013, for instance, without a glimmer about how he would do it. The Democratic candidates know that the next president's task will be to extricate the United States from an unwinnable situation as cleanly as possible, not to hold out for an impossible final victory.

His promise to respect the constitutional balance between Congress and the White House raised questions, too. Is he willing to find and fix all the ways that Mr. Bush has undermined the Constitution and abridged civil liberties? Or is he just promising to do better?

Mr. McCain's record is not encouraging. His approval was critical to the passage of the Military Commissions Act of 2006, one of the most damaging pieces of legislation in the nation's history. It created kangaroo courts at Guantánamo and suspended habeas corpus, a prisoner's fundamental right to a hearing in a real court.'

(NYT Editorial)

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 May 08 - 11:28 AM

Amos,

1. The articles are not available shortly after they publication date.

2. IMO the logic and supporting information is important- Without it, one gets quick statements that will NOT stand alone- Such as the critisms of Obama short enough to fit on a bumper sticker.

Or the claim that McCain is Bush III or wants 100 years more war.


But if you just want unsupported sound bites, keep posting them from the NY Times...

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Amos
Date: 15 May 08 - 11:09 AM

Ya know, Bruce, it might be more effective if you trimmed these pastes down tot he parts bearing on the point you were trying to make.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 May 08 - 10:19 AM

McCain: Iraq War Can Be Won By 2013
By Michael D. Shear

COLUMBUS,Ohio, MAY 15--Sen. John McCain will pledge this morning that the Iraq war can be won and most American troops can come home by 2013 if he is elected president, a position that closely resembles those of his potential Democratic rivals.

According to speech exerpts released in advance, McCain will say that only a small contingent of troops in non-combat roles would remain in Iraq five years from now. He predicts the drawdown will be possible because al Qaeda in Iraq will be defeated and a democratic government will be operating in the war-torn country.

In the excerpts, McCain describes in detail the "conditions I intend to achieve" by the time his first term in office ends. He says he will "focus all the powers of the office; every skill and strength I possess," to make that future a reality.

McCain until now has resisted offering a timeline for withdrawal of U.S. troops, saying that to do so would be tantamount to giving terrorists a timeline for defeat.

During the Florida primary, McCain blasted former Massachusetts governor Mitt Romney for what he said was support of a withdrawal timeline. Democrats, meanwhile, pilloried McCain for saying American troops could remain in Iraq for up to 100 years -- a reference McCain later likened to the presence of U.S. bases in Germany or South Korea.


Just last month, McCain said that "To promise a withdrawal of our forces from Iraq, regardless of the calamitous consequences to the Iraqi people, our most vital interests, and the future of the Middle East, is the height of irresponsibility. It is a failure of leadership.''

But the speech he will give this morning envisions an America that, by 2013, "has welcomed home most of the servicemen and women who have sacrificed terribly so that America might be secure in her freedom. The Iraq War has been won."

By that time, the speech says, "the United States maintains a military presence there, but a much smaller one, and it does not play a direct combat role."

Asked to make a similar pledge during a debate last September, Democratic Sen. Barack Obama declined, saying that "it's hard to project four years from now and I think it would be irresponsible. We don't know what contingency will be out there."

But more recently, Obama has said he will remove all combat brigades from Iraq within 16 months of becoming president and will leave "some troops" in Iraq to protect U.S. embassy personnel there and carry out targeted strikes on terrorists.

Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton said during the same debate last year that it was her "goal" to have all of the U.S. troops out of Iraq by 2013, though more recently she has said she would begin a phased withdrawal immediately.

McCain's advisers this morning sharply disputed any similarity between their candidate's goals for Iraq and the positions of Democrats. They said McCain's promise is to win the Iraq war by the end of his term while his rivals vow to begin pullouts regardless of the conditions in the country.

"There is no similarity," said McCain adviser Steve Schmidt.


In the speech, McCain also describes the America he hopes will exist after four years of his administration.

In that future America, he promises that taxes are lower, congressional earmarks are eliminated and robust economic growth has returned. He promises a new international "League of Democracies" that will have stopped the genocide in Darfur. He promises that construction will have begun on 20 new nuclear plants and that there will be a free-market plan to reduce greenhouse gasses. And he promises to have secured the country's southern border and offered a temporary worker program to illegal immigrants.

To accomplish those goals, McCain pledges cooperation with Democrats, saying that he will "listen to any idea that is offered in good faith and intended to help solve our problems, not make them worse."

In the speech, McCain disavows "signing statements" often used by President Bush to alter the implementation of laws, saying that "I will not subvert the purpose of legislation I have signed by making statements that indicate I will enforce only the parts of it I like."

And McCain says he will ask Congress to hold regular Q & A sessions with him, much like the feisty exchanges that take place regularly between the British Prime Minister and members of the House of Commons.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Riginslinger
Date: 14 May 08 - 06:16 PM

I wonder why the left out Joe Lieberman?

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Amos
Date: 13 May 08 - 07:06 PM

From MoveOn:

John McCain says he's a defender of democracy. But the folks running his campaign have been playing for the other team.

Two of John McCain's senior campaign staff were forced to resign this week after revelations that their lobbying firm was paid hundreds of thousands of dollars to represent Burma's brutal military dictatorship.1

And it gets worseÑturns out this goes all the way to the top. Charlie Black, McCain's campaign chairman, ran a lobbying firm that represented brutal dictators like Ferdinand Marcos in the Philippines and Mobutu Sese Seko in ZaireÑalong with terrorist rebel Jonas Savimbi in Angola. Together, these men have been responsible for massive human suffering.2

And for good measure, Charlie Black has represented war profiteer Blackwater Worldwide and Iraqi fraudster Ahmed Chalabi.3

John McCain has a lobbyist problem, and we thought he could use your advice. What should Senator McCain do about his top adviser, Charlie Black? We'll release the results to the mediaÑand forward your advice to Senator McCain himself. And we're working on a hard-hitting web ad about Charlie Black that we'll release soon.

Click below to choose which message to send to John McCain:
Fire Black. Fire Charlie Black if he doesn't resign first.

Fire all the lobbyists. Fire Charlie Black, plus all 112 lobbyists running your campaign,4 including campaign co-chair Tom Loeffler, who has represented the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, a notorious human rights abuser.5

Don't sweat it. The media is so sold on your "maverick" image that corrupt figures in your inner circle won't actually hurt you.

Go all in. Hire more lobbyists who've worked for evil dictators. Maybe Kim Jong-il or Idi Amin.
Tell us what you think and spread the word! This survey's kind of funny, but our goal is deadly serious. If hundreds of thousands of us weigh in, we can show the media that John McCain's campaign has a growing liability: the fact that his inner circle is filled with lobbyists who've worked for everything he claims to be against.

Thanks for all you do.

ÐNoah, Karin, Ilyse, Peter, Justin, and the MoveOn.org Political Action Team
ÊÊTuesday, May 13th, 2008

P.S. McCain's campaign staff have too many connections to dictators to list in this email. It's unbelievable. But the non-partisan reform group Public Campaign Action Fund created a great fact sheet laying it all out:

http://www.firethelobbyists.com/facts.html

Sources:
1. "A Lobbying Firm and Its McCain Ties," MSNBC, May 12, 2008
http://www.moveon.org/r?r=3654&id=12653-137503-cqHYTQ&t=5
2. "John McCain's Lobbyist Connections," Public Campaign Action Fund
http://www.firethelobbyists.com/facts.html

3. Ibid.

4. "McCain's Lobbyists in Trouble for Foreign Lobbying," Progressive Media USA, May 11, 2008
http://www.mccainsource.com/mccain_fact_check?id=0007

5. "McCain Aides Are Tied," New York Sun, May 12, 2008
http://www2.nysun.com/national/mccain-aides-are-tied/

"Obama Calls on Rice to Address Human Rights Violations in Saudi Arabia," November 19, 2007
http://obama.senate.gov/press/071119-obama_calls_on_21/

"Saudi Arabia," Human Rights Watch World Report, 2007
http://hrw.org/englishwr2k7/docs/2007/01/11/saudia14717.htm

Support our member-driven organization: MoveOn.org Political Action is entirely funded by our 3.2 million members. We have no corporate contributors, no foundation grants, no money from unions. Our tiny staff ensures that small contributions go a long way. If you'd like to support our work, you can give now at:

http://political.moveon.org/donate/email.html?id=12653-137503-cqHYTQ&t=6

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Amos
Date: 10 May 08 - 05:22 PM

I am sure it could so be, but that does not mean it is.

Anyway, this is another one of those bass-ackward arguments. "Hamas likes Obama better" is seen as equivalent of saying "McCain would be a better President" without any further examination -- what a dull piece of illogical thought!!

A

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 May 08 - 05:01 PM

Could be that someone has quietly given Hamas some financial inducement to declare their support for Obama... ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: CarolC
Date: 10 May 08 - 04:50 PM

If Hamas endorses Obama, it will be used against him by his opponent, as we can see, and could effect his chances of getting elected. The result would be a President McCain. Anybody at all can see the reality of this, including Hamas themselves. What this tells us is that this is what they want to happen, which means that a McCain administration would play into the hands of Hamas and its agenda. Which, it seems to me, is about as obvious as anything could possibly be.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Amos
Date: 10 May 08 - 02:51 PM

The proposition that Hamas favors Barack is irrational. Why would they? Because he had friends in the Muslim community? They no more represent the Muslim community (as they understand the notion) than Al Qeda represents Panamanian interests.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Donuel
Date: 09 May 08 - 07:40 PM

Our mind set is not cast in stone but there is a lot of carry over of ideas we had in our prime.

John's mindset is formed by his prime years in the 1950's and the horrors he endured in the 70's.

That may explain some of the things he says.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: katlaughing
Date: 09 May 08 - 07:22 PM

Now the bastard is saying women need more education and training in order to receive equal pay for equal work:

Senator John McCain opposed the Fair Pay Act—a bill that would help guarantee women equal pay for equal work. The bill simply would have restored critical anti-discrimination rules that the Supreme Court struck down in a recent decision, and failed by just three votes.

Adding insult to injury, McCain said that the solution to employment discrimination was for women to get more "education and training. Maybe that made some sense in his day, but today with women outnumbering men on college campuses, it makes none. Study after study has shown that women are paid less than men for the same work, even when they have the same education and training. Senator McCain and his Republican allies have chosen to stand in the way of enforcement of a law that's been on the books protecting women for 40 years.

He will be worse than Bush if he gets in. I don't trust him. I think he is unstable, a loose cannon, and would be more dangerous as he would actually be making decisions, himself, which could be worse than what Cheney has funnelled through the puppet.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Amos
Date: 09 May 08 - 03:51 PM

Storm in a Teacup? -- the small scandal over whether McCain actually voted for Bush, and maybe said some nasty things about him at a dinner party.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Greg F.
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 08:42 AM

... one of the moving forces behind all of the contributions to the Obama campaign...

That could be said of any group, organization or individual fed up with the Right-Wing Republican administration of the BuShites and/or the Moderate Republican - cloned administration of the Clintons.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Apr 08 - 02:13 AM

McCain vs McCain

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 08:16 AM

Okay, Jack, what I meant to say--if we want to be perfectly accurate--is they are one of the moving forces behind all of the contributions to the Obama campaign. I didn't mean to imply they were actually gathering up money and sending it on.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 01:39 AM

Don't be a jackass Riginslinger. You said that Moveon was raising money for Obama. I said they were raising it for themselves. They are a 527. They are not allowed to work with his campaign.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: heric
Date: 25 Apr 08 - 12:24 AM

McCain is all over the front pages saying that the Katrina response was mismanaged. Now there's going out on a limb . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 09:14 PM

On another thread some poster tried to make the point that Moveon.org didn't have anything to do with the promotion of Obama.

                     But I would agree, McCain's pandering to these right-wing buffoons should cost him a lot of independant votes.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Amos
Date: 24 Apr 08 - 08:01 PM

"Right-wing pastor John Hagee says Katrina was New Orleans' fault. John McCain sought out, and embraces, Hagee's support. MoveOn members are trying to deliver a petition to McCain in New Orleans just a few hours from now: will you sign?

Here's the background: McCain wants America to see him as a compassionate, mainstream politician. So he's going to New Orleans today for a photo-op in the 9th Ward.

But he's still trying to shore up his right-wing baseÑso this past Sunday, he again welcomed the support of right-wing evangelist John Hagee, who said "Hurricane Katrina was, in fact, the judgment of God against the city of New Orleans."1

MoveOn members in New Orleans have organized an emergency rally outside McCain's event today. With the media looking on, they'll try to deliver our petition asking him to stop pandering to right-wing bigots like Hagee. They'll announce an up-to-the-minute number of signatures, and we'll have a real impact if we can say that hundreds of thousands have signed in only a few hours. Clicking here will add your name:

http://pol.moveon.org/mccain_pander/o.pl?id=12500-137503-jT1Pd_&t=3

The petition reads: "John Hagee continues to blame the people of New Orleans for the catastrophe of Katrina. Senator McCain: If you reject intolerance and bigotry, reject Hagee's political support and stop courting hate-mongers like him."

This is not a gaffe or a "gotcha." Hagee has a history of bigoted comments and he stood by his New Orleans remarks just days ago.2 And McCain's strategy is intentionalÑhe's been working hard to court far-right leaders like Jerry Falwell and John Hagee, despite their hateful views.3 Even when he was pressed about Hagee's hateful views, McCain said he was "glad to have his endorsement."4

Hagee's words matter. Katrina was a terrible reminder of the consequences of bigotry and exclusion. People without resources, without political power, literally sank beneath the waves while our government did nothing.

John McCain is relying for political support on a man who preaches bigotry and exclusion, who spreads the kind of hate that allowed Katrina to become a man-made tragedy. While the media is focused on his New Orleans visit, we need to call him on it.

The more folks who sign the petition in the next few hours, the greater our impact. Clicking here will add your name right now:
http://pol.moveon.org/mccain_pander/o.pl?id=12500-137503-jT1Pd_&t=4

We need to let Senator McCain know that he can't use New Orleans for a photo-op while still courting the political support of hate-mongers like Hagee. New Orleans deserves better and America does, too."


(Move On)

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Donuel
Date: 21 Apr 08 - 07:48 PM

McCain is doing his part to stick to the shock jock radio talking points. "No one knows who Obama is!!!!!!"
(simulated AM talk radio...
Thats right, he just might be binLaden in a suit. No one knows. There are no fellow soldiers who remember him, there are no DAR who remember him, for all we know he has a FAKE Social Security card and a few fake family photos.

Has anyone seen his mom or grandmom? Father?

Yeah they say he was born under a shining star in the East -- the MIDDLE EAST or the mid west? NO one knows for sure. All I know is that he crawled from underneath a rock.

Ladies and gentlemen this Obama character could in fact be an alien and the whacko liberals act as if he is the son of God.

After his behavior in the Senate when he overturned the tables of the money lender lobbists, you can be sure that he is out to dman America.

The FBI ran a security check on this guy's identity and they found that he had tried to disfigure his prints with a scared hole on each palm. What is he tryiing to hide. I'll tell you what, he is hiding that he wants to destroy America by spending our treasure on useless efforts to stop what this country was founded on____WAR!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: Riginslinger
Date: 20 Apr 08 - 10:12 PM

Ronald Reagan was to old to realize he was even in the job, but the Republicans loved him and he slept through 8 years in office. Every time somebody woke him up to sign something, it made the lives of ordinary Americans worse than the thing they woke him up to sign before.

Subject: RE: BS: Popular views on McCain
From: GUEST,Tunesmith
Date: 20 Apr 08 - 08:49 AM

What interests me is that in the UK, Ming Campbell,the leader of one of our political parties ( the Liberal Democrates ), was hounded out of office because he was condsidered, at 66 years, to be too old for the job!