BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 12:55 PM

https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/middle-east-and-north-africa/israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,R Sole
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 12:09 PM

Mr Hertford.
Excuse me.
It is never allowed.
Not by people who call themselves human.

The bombing of schools and hospitals is only ever allowed by those bombing them for their own aims.

Disgraceful.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 12:07 PM

Neither of you have acknowledged that terror attacks on hospitals schools and homes were an everyday occurrence in the lives of Gazans in 2014

There were no terror attacks on hospitals and homes, any targeting of them was because they were being used for military purposes which is permitted under the Law of Armed Conflict. Of course mistakes do happen in the fog of war and these have been acknowledged.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 12:00 PM

I wouldn't even bother Keith, most people are familiar with their tactics by now, if they can't refute the content they try to discredit the messenger and if there is a Jew included....well, that just seals it for them.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 11:46 AM

Can you read, Keith? If so, DO so.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 11:27 AM

Greg, can you substantiate,
"HIGH LEVEL MILITARY GROUP" "copyright by 'The Friends of Israel Initiative"?

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 11:27 AM

For the word "politicized" in the post of 17 Jan 16 - 11:18 AM read UN, UNWRA, HRW, AI, CCFD, AFPS etc.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 11:18 AM

Lawfare, the abuse of international norms and procedures and the judicialisation of international institutions to attain strategic goals that cannot be achieved by political and military means, has become a common feature in modern conflicts. It has evolved into a new weapon in the hands of our enemies seeking to constrain and limit the ability of Western armies to pursue our national security interests.

The High Level Military Group (HLMG) was formed in early 2015 with a mandate to address the implications for Western warfare of fighting enemies who disregard the Law of Armed Conflict (LOAC) but exploit our own nations' adherence to LOAC for their gain.
HLMG members discussing the 2014 Gaza Conflict with an IDF soldier on a field visit in southern Israel

HLMG members have a wealth of experience at the very highest operational and policy levels as regards the conduct of warfare and its attendant policies.

Our purpose is to add a professional military and legal element to debates about warfare in the 21st Century, which at times have been ill-informed and politicised, and which are of vital importance to our own armies and alliance partners.

Our work will cover an initial assessment of the 2014 Gaza Conflict, a comparative study examining the conduct of operations by democratic militaries against non-state enemies who do not abide by LOAC, and a final report setting out the challenges and policy prescriptions for the current era of warfare.

http://www.high-level-military-group.org/

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 11:16 AM

Greg, please say which of their statements is factually incorrect, bearing in mind the statement of Ban Ki-Moon,

"As we speak, rockets from Hamas and Islamic Jihad continue to be fired on Israel. I have just seen myself with the Prime Minister all kinds of rockets fired by Hamas on to the heads of all of these people and the neighbourhoods where many people are living.

This is quite shocking. And I have seen all the photos and videos and evidence myself.

The United Nations position is clear: We condemn strongly the rocket attacks. These must stop immediately.

We condemn the use of civilian sites – schools, hospitals and other civilian facilities - for military purposes.

No country would accept rockets raining down on its territory – and all countries and parties have an international obligation to protect civilians."

Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon, Tel Aviv (Israel), 22 July 2014

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 11:15 AM

HMLG:

AN ASSESSMENT OF THE 2014 GAZA CONFLICT
General Klaus Dieter Naumann
(Germany) is the
former Chief of Staff of the Bundeswehr, the German
armed forces and served as Chairman of the NATO Military
Committee from 1996 to 1999.

General Vincenzo Camporini
(Italy) is the former
Chief of Defence Staff of Italy. He served as Deputy Chief
of Defence General Staff and President of the Italian Centre
for High Defence Studies before being appointed Chief of
Staff of the Italian Air Force and subsequently Chief of
Defence General Staff.

Lieutenant General David A. Deptula
(United States)
was the principal attack planner for the Desert Storm coalition
air campaign in 1991, served as Director of the Combined
Air Operations Center in Afghanistan and served as the first
Deputy Chief of Staff for Intelligence, Surveillance and
Reconnaissance (ISR), Headquarters Air Force.

Admiral José María Terán
(Spain) serves in the Office
of Strategic Assessment of the Minister of Defence of
Spain. A former Chief of the Joint Staff and Chief of the
Strategic Analysis Group, he has also served as Director for
Reorganisation of the Spanish Intelligence Service.

Major General Andrew James Molan
(Australia)
served as the Chief of Operations for the Headquarters
Multinational Force in Iraq. He is a former Commander
of the Australian Defence College and has served as Adviser
to the Vice Chief of the Australian Defence Force on Joint
Warfighting Lessons and Concepts.

Lieutenant General Kamal Davar
(India) served as
the first Director General of the Defence Intelligence Agency
of India. A former Director-General, Mechanised Forces
at Army Headquarters, he has held a large number of high
ranking command posts in the Indian Army and served on
the Indian Military Training Team in Iraq.

Brigadier General Alain Lamballe
(France) served
in the General Secretariat for National Defence as head of
the Southeast Asia and Europe sections as well as heading
the Central Liaison Mission for Assistance to Foreign
Forces. He is the former Director of the Department of
Security Cooperation of the OSCE Mission in Bosnia
and Herzegovina.

Colonel Richard Kemp
(United Kingdom) was
Commander of British Forces in Afghanistan and has
served in Iraq, the Balkans, South Asia and Northern
Ireland. He has led the international terrorism team at
the UK's Joint Intelligence Committee and served as
chairman of the strategic intelligence group for COBRA,
the UK national crisis management committee.

Colonel Vincent Alcazar
(United States) served as a
fighter pilot in Operations Desert Storm and Southern Watch
as well as various other post 9/11 theatres. He subsequently
served in strategic roles at the Pentagon, the U.S. Defense
Intelligence Agency and at the U.S. embassy, Baghdad, Iraq.

Colonel Eduardo Ramirez
(Colombia) is an
Advisor to the Congress of Colombia who served with the
Colombian National Police from 1987 until 2013. He was
formerly the Chief of Security Staff for President Uribe
of Colombia, as well as Chief of Section at the Judicial
and Criminal Directory of the National Police.
Ambassador Pierre-Richard Prosper

(United States)
was Ambassador-at-large in charge of the US Secretary of
State's Office of War Crimes Issues. A former Presidential
envoy and adviser to the National Security Council he was
previously a war crimes prosecutor for the United Nations
International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda.

Rafael L. Bardají
is the Executive Director of the
Friends of Israel Initiative and National Security Advisor to
Former President, José María Aznar. He formerly served in
the Government of Spain as the National Security Adviser
and in leadership positions in the Ministry of Defence.

Davis Lewin
is the Rapporteur of the High Level Military
Group. He is the Deputy Director and Head of Policy and
Research at The Henry Jackson Society, a London based
Foreign and Defence Policy think tank.

Joseph Raskas
is a Research Assistant for The Friends of
Israel Initiative and a Fellow at The Public Interest Fellowship.


The High Level Military Group was formed in early
2015 with a mandate to examine Israel's conduct of
the 2014 Gaza Conflict, in the context of a larger
project seeking to address the implications for
Western warfare of fighting enemies who disregard
the Law of Armed Conflict (LOAC) but exploit our
own nations' adherence to LOAC for their gain.
HLMG members have a wealth of experience at the
very highest operational and policy levels as regards
the conduct of warfare and its attendant policies.
Our purpose is to add a professional military and
legal element to this debate, which at times has been
ill-informed and politicised, and which is of vital
importance to our own armies and alliance partners.

The HLMG had unprecedented access to Israel's
decision makers, from the Prime Minister and
Defence Minister, through the military top-
level leadership to individual unit commanders
and soldiers as well as civilians affected by the
fighting.   Former officials who have retired since
the conflict took place were also made available.
The HLMG was able to extensively examine all
pertinent aspects of Israel's conduct, as well as the
country's political, military and legal structures.
Israel's government and military offered a level of
cooperation in seeking to illuminate their actions
that is highly unusual in such a context, offering
open, clear responses to an examination that went
far beyond what our own countries would expect
to have to reveal even to allied militaries.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 11:14 AM

You missed a bit.
"HIGH LEVEL MILITARY GROUP"
"copyright by 'The Friends of Israel Initiative".
The random attacks ta\king place in Israel at present are little different from those carried out by Israeli Freedom Fighters in the 1940s - not a lot of "rules of armed conflict" then, now, or in any guerrilla warfare.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 11:12 AM

Jim,
Destruction of schools, hospitals and occupied homes is adhering to the law of armed conflict of course

The are circumstances where it is allowed.
If your enemy commits the war crime of fighting from a civilian area, as Hamas did, and provided that warnings are given and steps taken to minimise civilian casualties, as IDF did, it is allowed.

(I pass no opinion on that r sole, I am just stating what the law says.)

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 11:01 AM

Yup- the "HMLG" - a wholly-owned subsidiary of http://www.friendsofisraelinitiative.org/about-wellcome.php

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 10:52 AM

Hamas not only flagrantly disregarded the Law of Armed Conflict as a matter of course
Destruction of schools, hospitals and occupied homes is adhering to the law of armed conflict of course - as is facilitating the massacre of 3.5 thousand refugees, using chemicals to remove legal occupants of land.... and all the other crimes against humanity carried out by Israel and protected by U.S. vetoes!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 10:23 AM

So, R Sole, do you condemn Hamas

Its NOT my fault! It all started, Mommie, when Johnnie hit me back!!

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 08:54 AM

Hamas not only flagrantly disregarded the
Law of Armed Conflict as a matter of course
as part of its terrorist-army hybrid strategic
concept, but rather it abused the very protections
afforded by the law for military advantage,
putting the civilian population of Gaza at great
risk.
Situating its operational headquarters
in Gaza's main hospital, the entire military
machinery of Hamas was embedded in civilian
locations, private homes and a plethora of
sensitive sites such as medical facilities, mosques
and schools. These included facilities run by
the United Nations in multiple instances, from
which it must be concluded that the relevant
UN agencies are either compromised in their
relationship with Hamas or have temporarily lost
control of the security of their facilities.
Many of Hamas's actions clearly amount to serious
violations of the Law of Armed Conflict.

HIGH LEVEL MILITARY GROUP Oct.2015 AN
ASSESSMENT OF THE 2014 GAZA CONFLICT

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 08:46 AM

No decent democratic government accuses Israel of massacring Gazans, or anyone else.
Just propaganda Jim. Try not to be so gullible.

Hamas is recognised to be guilty of massacring Jews with their bus bombings and other indiscriminate attacks. Any outrage over that Jim?
Why not Jim?

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 08:45 AM

This from The Economist, at the time the bloggers campaign was leaked

But even his critics admit that he is not an anti-Semite. And though his reports are generally critical of Israel, his memorabilia hobby doesn't seem to inform his work in any way (though no one but Mr Garlasco can know for sure).
The blogger who broke the story admits as much, arguing that Human Rights Watch "couldn't notice anything wrong with the way [Mr Garlasco] approached the conflict because, well, that's how they all approach the conflict." Perhaps they all collect Nazi memorabilia too, or perhaps it doesn't matter. Therein lies the problem. The controversy, made relevant by Mr Garlasco's critical reports on Israel, seems to have little bearing on the substance of those reports. If we weren't dealing with the touchy subjects of Israel and the second world war, it would almost be like condemning someone for having a foot fetish.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 08:26 AM

Are you actually dismissing Human Right Watch as a valid source - after you have used it yourself in the past, re. Israel's Blockade of Gaza.
The incident you refer to HERE was spread by pro-Israli bloggers, was related to his family's interest in military nterest and was found to be no more than a Israeli regime generated smear campaign that has also targetted the U.N. and a host of human rights organisations.
It was a deliberate campaign set up by Israel to undermine Human Rights organisations which were critical of Israeli terrorism.   
The last of these stunts was an attempt to close The International Court of Human rights, which would leave the world unable to try any International criminals.
Jom Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 08:20 AM

R sole, you chose not to quote anything I actually said about "legitimate targets."
You are being dishonest about me. All I ever said on the subject was to explain the Law of Armed Conflict and how it applied. Just facts.

massacres of the Arab people by the Israeli regime.

What massacres of the Arab people by the Israeli regime?

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 08:06 AM

As we speak, rockets from Hamas and Islamic Jihad continue to be fired on Israel. I have just seen myself with the Prime Minister all kinds of rockets fired by Hamas on to the heads of all of these people and the neighbourhoods where many people are living.

This is quite shocking. And I have seen all the photos and videos and evidence myself.

The United Nations position is clear: We condemn strongly the rocket attacks. These must stop immediately.

We condemn the use of civilian sites – schools, hospitals and other civilian facilities - for military purposes.

No country would accept rockets raining down on its territory – and all countries and parties have an international obligation to protect civilians.

Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon, Tel Aviv (Israel), 22 July 2014

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 07:58 AM

Schools - Human Rights Watch

You mean that organization in which the person in charge of the Israel file was an avid collector of Nazi memorabilia and frequenter of Nazi chat rooms? Try again.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 07:47 AM

There was never any evidence that soldiers were based in the thousands of schools, hospitals old peoples homes and occupied houses that were razed to the ground

That's a blatant lie but that's to be expected from you.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 07:35 AM

"A school, for example, becomes a legitimate military target if soldiers are based there"
There was never any evidence that soldiers were based in the thousands of schools, hospitals old peoples homes and occupied houses that were razed to the ground in the random slaughter and it was never claimed that there were.
The officials of one home actually informed the Israelis that they were full of elderly patients.
The commander instructed that they should stay were they were - then bombarded the place to rubble.
The Israelis actually launching rockets from the yard of one occupied schools - but fair's fair, the children were only Arabs.
Schools - Human Rights Watch
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 07:19 AM

"A school, for example, becomes a legitimate military target if soldiers are based there. With hospitals, the situation is more complicated since they are permitted to keep armed guards on their grounds. But immunity from attack can be lost if the people or objects are used to commit acts that are harmful to one side in a conflict."

http://www.crimesofwar.org/a-z-guide/immunity-from-attack/>Crimes of War

So, R Sole, do you condemn Hamas for their war crime of using hospitals and schools for military purposes?

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,R Sole
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 06:15 AM

A rather quick google search citing Mudcat, this subject and some of the contributors sees Keith A of Hertford being taken to task for referring to Palestinian hospitals and schools as legitimate targets when Israeli militants carried out their bombing campaign.

I doubt therefore he is capable of knowing what massacres are.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 05:01 AM

"What massacres?"
Oh dear Keith - none so deaf
"That is sickening."
A bit more than that - it is an insult to the memory of those who died in the extermination camps.
The families of survivors that I knew all lived my the creed, "never again, to anybody", yet it's happening all over - this time, in the name of the Jewish people, if those here are to be believed - do we really have to take their word for it?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 04:14 AM

massacres of the Arab people by the Israeli regime.

What massacres?

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,R Sole
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 03:36 AM

You see, what makes many people turn off is this obscene insistence that to oppose the awful abuses of human rights by the Israeli government and military is somehow anti Semitic.

Hiding behind the cover of European guilt of generations now dead themselves does more to turn people off to any legitimate cause than any other. The same people are quick to point out that Arabs and Christians are full members of Israeli society with a vote.

But when the rotten corrupt government is criticised, the same people play the holocaust card. That is sickening.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Jan 16 - 03:33 AM

"If anyone is interested in learning how Fatah terrorists operate in the West Bank"
Probably about as interested a you are of the massacres of the Arab people by the Israeli regime.
You refuse to respond to those, you deny the Arabs the right to continue to live where they have lived for nearly two thousand years, and you are surprised when the Palestinian people hit back.
The most despicable aspect to your arguments is you hide behind the Jewish people to defend these crimes - you make them "Jewish" rather than what they are - the crimes of an extremist, right-wing Israeli regime seeking to ethnically cleanse the area in the name of the Jewish people.
You ought to be ashamed of yourselves - all of you, without exception.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jan 16 - 09:19 PM

If anyone is interested in learning how Fatah terrorists operate in the West Bank, how the small Jewish community in Hebron lives and how the world's press perpetuates the false Palestinian narrative read this account by Daniel Borg, it may open your eyes and your mind.

Daniel Borg is a Swede who was actively engaged in Swedish politics, passionately pro-Palestinian and went to join the International Solidarity Movement (ISM). His observations from within the ISM are explosive.

Confessions Of A Pro-Palestinian Activist In Hebron 2007

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jan 16 - 04:57 PM

The future is looking bright:

"13,000 teens complete Hamas training camps to emulate 'suicide martyrs'"

TOI

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jan 16 - 04:56 PM

" Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis."
Selective eh what - take the bits of the definition that suit you, reject the bits that don't
Why am I not surprised?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,Lubavitch
Date: 16 Jan 16 - 04:29 PM

Stay alive, get a .45 (and move to Scottsdale)
{click} 

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jan 16 - 03:32 PM

Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.


    Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jan 16 - 03:08 PM

Missed the relevant bit
"Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.
In utilizing the EUMC definition, it bears emphasizing that at UK Media Watch we support open and honest debate about the Israel/Palestinian conflict including harsh criticism of Israel as long as the criticism of Israel is similar to that leveled against any other nation of the world."
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jan 16 - 03:05 PM

Same source
European defininion of Antisemitism
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Jan 16 - 03:03 PM

The argument is getting a bit viscous & dense & and hard to follow; but it seems time yet again to cite

"the 2005 definition of antisemitism by the EUMC {The European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia}, regarding the practice of disguised antisemitism masquerading as legitimate criticism of Israel"

I repeat that I don't think anyone is setting out to do such a thing here; but I think this definition should always be at the back of the mind in engaging with such topics as that of this thread.

≈M≈

If I had a religion [which thank the lord I've not, sir!], there are two things I should puzzle my head interminably over:

1 {In general: not partic related to this thread} Why God, or Who-evs, couldn't design us a bit more efficiently, to be able to avoid tedious and inconvenient incessant necessity of having to take time out to piss & shit (& make us so prone to be super-embarrassed by so natural an activity at that!); &

2 {arising from this thread} Why the hell he had to manufacture such a plethora of different races & ethnicities, and give each of them a built-in mindset inclined to hate & despise all the others.

He really isn't a deity that I can understand how anyone whatever could love when they look around them -- & I'm not saying that to distress anyone. Just how I see things...

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jan 16 - 02:54 PM

Stifling dissent with "antisemitism" - a Jewish view
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jan 16 - 02:52 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jan 16 - 02:40 PM

"The second indicator of the new anti-Semitism is the indictment of Israel and the Jewish people as the embodiment of all evil, including racism, imperialism, colonialism, ethnic cleansing, apartheid and even Nazism."

Irwin Cotler

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jan 16 - 02:25 PM

"Manfred Gerstenfeld"
Answering the points put up with accusations of Antisemitic is Antisemitic - however
"Manfred Gerstenfeld"
"He was an editor of The Jewish Political Studies Review, co-publisher of the Jerusalem Letter/Viewpoints, Post-Holocaust and Anti-Semitism and Changing Jewish Communities"
He is part of:
"The Jerusalem Center for Public Affairs (JCPA) is an Israeli research institute and public policy think tank devoted to research and analysis of critical issues facing the Middle East. The center is located in Jerusalem.[4] Its research focuses on public diplomacy, foreign policy, international law, paradigms for regional diplomacy, and the connections between local and global terrorism.[4] Dr. Dore Gold, Israel's former ambassador to the UN and former foreign policy adviser to Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, headed the Jerusalem Center from 2000[5] to 2015, when he took a leave of absence to become director-general of the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs.[6]"
What other opinion (that is what this is) is he going to give
Please atop hiding behind the Jewish people to defend atrocities - show they are not atrocities.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Jan 16 - 01:35 PM

New antisemitism is the concept that a new form of antisemitism has developed in the late 20th and early 21st centuries, emanating simultaneously from the far-left, radical Islam, and the far-right, and tending to manifest itself as opposition to Zionism and the State of Israel. The concept generally posits that much of what purports to be criticism of Israel by various individuals and world bodies, is, in fact, tantamount to demonization, and that, together with an alleged international resurgence of attacks on Jews and Jewish symbols, and an increased acceptance of antisemitic beliefs in public discourse, such demonization represents an evolution in the appearance of antisemitic beliefs.

The Deep Roots of Anti-Semitism in European Society
Manfred Gerstenfeld

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jan 16 - 12:53 PM

"As is your use of "Zionists", by which you seem to mean the Jews then settled in [then] Palestine; "
No I mean (or I assume the article meant) extreme Zionism.
I knew Jewish families in Manchester who were far from Zionist in their outlook - Jews yes, but of all political and religious shades
- some even communists based on their experiences at the hands of the right (my father once said that there would never have been a Communist Party if it hadn't been for lapsed Catholics and disillusioned Jews).
It was in that period I saw the shift from unquestioning support of Israel to an opposition to what was happening there.
One of the most memorable people I ever met was Les Parrington, who ran a bookshop in Liverpool.
He had moved Germany to Israel, gone on to South Africa, from where he was expelled for his political activities, and ended up running a left-wing bookshop at the top of Mount Pleasant - a lovely, gentle man who taught me much about humanity - probably long dead.
Many of my father fellow-prisoners in Spain where Jewish - I was privileged to meet some of them at his funeral where they tuned up in droves.
I am aware of the part Zionism played in setting up the state, just as I am aware how it has become a weapon of oppression now - no different from any religious body who has abandoned its ideals..
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 16 Jan 16 - 12:49 PM

MGM Lion, You should be commended, for your 'politeness'!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Jan 16 - 12:12 PM

Thanks, Jim. Yes, as I interpreted, you meant 'Palestine', where this "British staff" was based", not 'Israel, which did not then yet exist; which was confusing.

As is your use of "Zionists", by which you seem to mean the Jews then settled in [then] Palestine; whereas Zionism was actually a world-wide political movement working for the establishment of a Jewish State in [then] Palestine. It is arguable that "Zionism"'s ends were achieved, and so it ceased to exist in any viable sense, with the proclamation of Israel in 1948; and the word has now degenerated into one of those quasi-racist terms of implied semi-abuse, best avoided IMO. I know that is by no means any of your motivation in using it; but believe it does leave your implications open to misunderstanding.

≈M≈

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jan 16 - 11:51 AM

Some more sruff to ignore - from inside Israel
"The population of Jewish settlers in the occupied West Bank has surged during Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's years in office, growing at more than twice the pace of Israel's overall population, according to newly obtained official figures.
Settlement growth also was strong beyond Israel's separation barrier, seen by many as the basis for a border between Israel and a future Palestinian state.
The figures reflect Netanyahu's continued support for settlement construction, even while repeatedly stating his commitment to the eventual establishment of an independent Palestinian state as part of a future peace agreement. They also could be a topic of discussion as U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry meets with Netanyahu and European officials this week over a promised UN Security Council proposal dealing with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.
While Israeli leaders of all political persuasions have built settlements for decades, the U.S. and western allies have dwindling patience for their construction.
From the beginning of 2009 until the beginning of 2014 — Netanyahu returned to office in March 2009 — the Jewish settler population in the West Bank grew 23 percent, to 355,993 people. In comparison, the overall population has grown 9.6 percent to just over 8 million in that time. Figures for 2014 are not expected before late next year.
The rate of settler population growth slowed slightly under Netanyahu, from 31 percent during the previous five years under his predecessors Ariel Sharon and Ehud Olmert. Olmert especially took relatively little heat for the settlements because he was seen as a moderate.
In all, the settler population has more than doubled in the 21 years since Israel and the Palestinians have been engaged in an on-and-off peace process aimed at a partition of the Holy Land.
Israel captured the West Bank in the 1967 Mideast war, and prime ministers of all political affiliations have allowed and sometimes encouraged settlement of the territory.
The Palestinians claim the West Bank, east Jerusalem and the Gaza Strip for their future state. They say all Israeli construction in the West Bank and east Jerusalem is illegal — a position with wide international support. Israel withdrew all its troops and settlers from Gaza in 2005.
In a situation that challenges Israel's claims to being a democracy, the more than 2 million Palestinians in the West Bank cannot vote for the Israeli government that controls much of their lives, while Jewish settlers can.
Netanyahu repeatedly has drawn U.S. ire with controversial construction plans. Defense Minister Moshe Yaalon suggested last week that the government would have liked to do more if not for the U.S. pressure.
"We are very, very careful not to push the envelope too much," Yaalon said. "This (U.S.) administration won't be around forever and I hope it is temporary." Even so, he boasted that settlements are growing faster than "any other part of the country."
Haaretz
And more
More still
And again
Plenty more where they came from - so ignore away
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 16 Jan 16 - 11:35 AM

"Jim the UN report you linked to is not about the state of Israel expanding the borders of Israel."
The maps you were link to were - how much land land the Palestinisns have lost fro 1948 to 2000
If you are not prepared to respond to them or the link showing Arans bin throw out, or th Sasson report or everything else you have been given I have no intention of wasting my time responding to you.
At least your troll mate has the balls to claim "They have been debunked."(without evidence of course) - same hymn-sheet rehearsal time.
If you are not prepared to respond to them I have no intention of wasting my time responding to you." - you just pretend they are not there.
Your present technique is to simply ignore what has been put up and deny something else instead.
"The Israeli government criticising and denouncing London for favouring itself?"
As I remember it Mike, the British staff on the ground complained about the pressure from London to favour the Zionists - they claimed this as the cause of the chaos when the British finally left (as I said, to the sound of hand grenades tossd into occupied houses to make room for the incomers.
Deir Yassin
I've been working all afternoon and haven't been able to lay my hands on the article or find it in the net - will keep looking.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Jan 16 - 11:16 AM

So the maps are all fakes Brucie

The maps do not show an expanded Israel because it has not expanded Jim.
Its borders are virtually unchanged since 1948 except for the old city of Jerusalem which had been illegally seized by Jordan from UN control.

Subject: RE: BS: Terrorism, Again (Israel)
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 16 Jan 16 - 10:07 AM

"'London' was criticised by those responsible for the day to day administration of Israel"
.,,.
Who do you mean by this, Jim? The Israeli government criticising and denouncing London for favouring itself?

If you mean 'Palestine', why put 'Israel'? It's a commonplace that colonial admins, who can only see the local situation, are always at odds with central admin who can get the whole picture. & what the source of this 'article' that's going to settle the question so indisputably?

≈M≈