BS: War in Georgia (2008)

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 04:47 PM

No, Bruce, I don't believe any account that begins, "The Georgian Ministry of Defense reported..." The Goergian governemnt is a puppet governemnt of the United Sates so anything it has to report is propaganda...

Please, por favor, tell the good folks of the makeup of the South Ossetain peace-keeping force... That's a good place to start in showing this report to be suspect...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 04:47 PM

Doesn't matter whether or not Russia planned to assist South Ossetia gain its independence. What matters is what the South Ossetians want.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 04:28 PM

Damn - I went to Ireland and had to watch developments from there without a PC to rant on.

And now that I'm back it appears to be over.

... I hope ...

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 04:23 PM

Russia always planned to force Georgia to release South Ossetia, and the Russians had been preparing for it militarily for a long time. That makes Russia the aggressor, and Georgia the victims.


Just as valid as your comment, CarolC.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 04:19 PM

"On the subject of the postulation that Chechens should move to a part of the world where there are people who are more like them... which part of the world would that be?"

Scranton?

Schenectady?

Pocatello?

East Orange?

Well, when we find out, let's issue them all passports and move them there, shall we?

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 04:10 PM

...and I don't trust Wikipedia for a minute on the subject of who did what to whom and when.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 04:07 PM

On the assertion that it was the South Ossetians who broke a cease fire... snipers from both sides had been violating it, not just South Ossetians.

Saakashvilli always planned to force South Ossetia to rejoin Georgia, and the Georgians had been preparing for it militarily for a long time. That makes Georgia the aggressor, and South Ossetia the victims.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: bankley
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 03:52 PM

Lower Slobovia

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 03:49 PM

On the subject of the postulation that Chechens should move to a part of the world where there are people who are more like them... which part of the world would that be?

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 03:44 PM

"Do you dispute that the American trained and equipped Georgian army swarmed into South Ossetia last Thursday, killing hundred of civilians and sending thousands of South Ossetians into Russia fleeing the invasion???"

NO.

Do you dispute that the ( Russian trained and supported) South Ossetians have been engaged in ethnic clensing of Georgians in the (Georgian ) Territory that they and the Russians have taken since that offensive?

Do you dispute the events as outlined in my post of 14 Aug 08 - 02:33 PM ( ie, BEFORE the Georgian attack on last Thursday?

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 03:23 PM

First of all, bruce, any time line where we are dependent on on a CIA puppet governmentn to tell US the truth is as bogus as a $3 bill... Listening to their verious ministers of this or that talke about what is fact is like inviting a bridge salesman into yer home...

Do you dispute that the American trained and equipped Georgian army swarmed into South Ossetia last Thursday, killing hundred of civilians and sending thousands of South Ossetians into Russia fleeing the invasion???

I mean, this is as good a place to start as any if the truth matters at all...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: bankley
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 02:35 PM

how do you say 'pipeline' in Russian ? or oil for that matter ?

get used to it... the bear is back and is swimming in lotsa crude..

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 02:34 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_South_Ossetia_War


"Beginning late on August 1, 2008, intense fighting began between Georgian troops and the forces of South Ossetia. Georgia claimed that South Ossetian separatists had shelled Georgian villages in violation of a ceasefire. South Ossetia denies provoking the conflict.[35][16] On August 3, South Ossetians started to evacuate into Russia and on August 5, Russian ambassador Yuri Popov warned that Russia will intervene if conflict erupts. [36][37] On August 7, 2008, Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili ordered Georgian troops to ceasefire. [38][39] Despite an offer of ceasefire the fighting intensified.[40][41] Hours after the declaration of ceasefire, in a televised address, Mikhail Saakashvili has vowed to restore Tbilisi's control over what he called the "criminal regime" in South Ossetia and Abkhazia and reinforce order.[41]

During the night and early morning Georgia launched a military offensive to surround and capture the capital of South Ossetia, Tskhinvali.[42] The heavy shelling laid the city in ruins, causing a humanitarian crisis which, according to Russian government sources, amounted to genocide. The news of the shelling was extensively covered by Russian media and served as a pretext for the following military reaction and Russia threatened to respond to defend South Ossetians against "a genocide by Georgian forces."[43][16] The extent of civilian casualties was later disputed in a number of sources.

On August 8, 2008, Russia sent troops across the Georgian border to South Ossetia to stop Georgia's offensive against its breakaway territory. In five days of fighting the Russian forces recaptured the regional capital Tskhinvali, pushed back Georgian troops, and largely destroyed Georgia's military infrastructure in airstrikes deep inside its territory.[44] Georgia retreated from its offensive in South Ossetia to defend itself[45]

Action on the Black Sea saw one Georgian missile boat sunk by the Russian Navy on August 9. The Russians claim that the Georgian ships had attacked them earlier. After the skirmish, the remaining Georgian ships fled in defeat.


Destroyed building in South Ossetia.Also on August 9, an offensive was begun by the military of the Republic of Abkhazia in the Kodori Valley, the only region of Abkhazia that was, before the war began, still in effective control of Georgian loyalists. By August 13 all of the remaining Georgian forces, including 3,000 ethnic Georgian civilians, in Kodori Valley had retreated to Georgia proper. [46

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 02:33 PM

The Georgian Ministry of Defense said on July 7, 2008 a group of up to ten militiamen were apparently prevented from placing mines on a Georgian-controlled by-pass road linking the Georgian villages in the north of Tskhinvali with the rest of Georgia. The Georgian side opened fire and the group was forced to retreat towards the nearby South Ossetian-controlled village. On July 8, 2008 South Ossetia reported that it had detained four "officers from the artillery brigade of the Georgian Ministry of Defense" close to the village of Okona in the Znauri district at the administrative border the night before.[20] Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili told police to prepare an operation to free the four soldiers, but they were released before an operation was launched.[21]

Russian military jets flew into Georgian airspace through South Ossetia on July 9, 2008 and then returned to Russia. The next day, the Russian authorities confirmed the flight and said, in an official statement, that the fighters were sent to prevent Georgia from launching an operation to free the four soldiers detained by South Ossetia.[22] In response, Georgia recalled its ambassador to Moscow "for consultations", stating that it was "outraged by Russia's aggressive policies."[23]

The incident coincided with the visit of the U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice to Tbilisi where she pledged the U.S. support for Georgia's bid to join NATO. She said that granting NATO Membership Action Plan to Georgia would help resolve the Abkhaz and South Ossetian problems. The statement caused a negative outcry in Moscow: the Russian foreign minister Sergey Lavrov responded, during his meeting with the de facto Abkhaz president Sergey Bagapsh, that Georgia's NATO integration process "may undermine the conflict resolution" process.[24] On July 11, 2008, Georgian Deputy Foreign Minister Grigol Vashadze called for an urgent UN Security Council meeting on the conflict zones.[25]

A South Ossetian envoy on July 11, 2008 declared that South Ossetia was capable of repelling any attack by Georgia without help from Moscow and also said the mainly Russian peacekeeping contingent in the Georgian-South Ossetian conflict zone should be increased.[26] The Russian Ministry of Defense said in a statement the same day that measures have been taken "to increase combat readiness" of the Russian peacekeeping forces stationed in Abkhazia. It also said that security had been tightened at the Russian peacekeepers' base camps, observation posts and checkpoints, and "additional training" of the peacekeeping personnel had been conducted "to explain regulations of use of firearm while on duty."[27] Nika Rurua, Deputy Head of the Parliament's Security and Defense Committee, warned that Georgia would shoot down Russia's military aircraft in case they appear in its airspace again and an initiative was considered to this effect, but decided instead to appeal to the world community on the matter. Media reports published information about Russia's alleged plans to seize the Kodori Gorge specifying that the details of the operation were worked out by Russian high-ranking military officials, with Abkhazia's President Sergey Bagapsh. Russia reportedly considered responding[update needed] by revealing the details of a planned military invasion of South Ossetia by Georgia to release their detained officers.[28]

On July 14, 2008 Georgia's deputy defense minister Batu Kutelia said Georgia plans to expand its military more than 15 percent to 37,000 soldiers following events in Abkhazia and South Ossetia. The additional manpower would be used to defend Georgia's airspace and the Black Sea coast.[29] On July 15, 2008 the U.S. and Russia both began exercises in the Caucasus though Russia denies the timing was intentional.[30] The Russian exercises included training to support peacekeepers in Abkhazia and South Ossetia. Georgia claimed the exercises were a manifestation of Russian aggression against it.[31] Also on July 15, Abkhazia and South Ossetia were said to be planning to join the Union of Russia and Belarus, a spokesman for the Union said both regions have talked about joining the Union, but that they would need to be recognized as independent and become observers before they could join the Union as members.[32][33]

According to media reports, on July 19, 2008 a Georgian police post was attacked by Abkhaz militias using grenades, one of the militiamen died from a grenade exploding accidentally. Abkhaz officials condemned the reports as false.[34] Georgian media also reported on July 19 that a battalion of Russian troops had moved into the lower Kodori Gorge.[35] Georgia's Defense Ministry claimed Russian troops encroached on Mamison and Roksky passes in Abkhazia and South Ossetia respectively and are in combat alert. Abkhazia's Foreign Minister said no new troops were brought in over the quota.[36]

A U.N. report issued July 23, 2008 on the period between April and July 2008 noted discrepancies with the Georgian attack of a shooting in Khurcha on the day of Georgian elections. In particular the report noted the way the incident was filmed suggested the attack was anticipated. The report said reconnaissance flights by Georgia were a violation of the ceasefire, but said the shooting down of those fights also constituted a breach of the ceasefire. Concerning a military buildup by Georgia the UN report said it found no evidence of a buildup but noted observers were denied access to certain areas of Abkhazia controlled by Georgia including the Kvabchara Valley.[37]

On July 28, 2008 a spokesman for the Russian peacekeepers in South Ossetia said South Ossetian forces had blocked peacekeepers and OSCE observers from the village of Cholibauri which is close to where Georgia says South Ossetia is building fortifications.[38] On July 29, 2008 South Ossetia said two South Ossetian villages had been fired on by Georgian forces in response to South Ossetia reinforcing its positions on the perimeter of the conflict zone.[39] Georgia said the same day that Georgian posts on the Sarabuki heights were attacked by South Ossetian forces with no injuries reported.[38]

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Leadbelly
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 02:31 PM

That's the point, Bobert! It was Saakashwili who started this little war. Don't know why Beardedbruce and others trivialized this fact since the beginning of this thread.
In real life, to do something criminal will produce consesquences.
Always have a look to her beginning...

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 02:17 PM

"Either you haven't been keeping up or you think it was okay for Georgia, with their American trained and equipped Army and their CIA annointed president to attack and kill South Ossetians... This is how this got started... Not Russia steppin' in... "

Do you ever bother to read the posted conmments ( see the timelines above) or do you just jump in on the Anti-Bush ( or US) side without any thought?



Try looking at the facts instead of who you want to support.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgian-Ossetian_conflict

BOTH sides contributed to this mess, but a case can be made that Georgia is more the victim than others.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 01:51 PM

Wait just a minute, bruce... Either you haven't been keeping up or you think it was okay for Georgia, with their American trained and equipped Army and their CIA annointed president to attack and kill South Ossetians... This is how this got started... Not Russia steppin' in... Or are you gonna try to revise this much the way you have tried to revise how the US people got duped on Iraq???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 01:45 PM

Shaak attack promised violence against South Ossetian's in his initial election campaign. Does that go back far enough?

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 01:26 PM

"However, I think the Georgians brought the mess down upon themselves...or rather, their government leaders did."

So, how many dead Georgians from South Ossetian attacks do you think they should have allowed before respnding?

The attacks against Georgia preceeded the Georgian offensive, if you look at the timeline. There was a truce ( by the Georgians) as of 7 Aug, which the Ossetians broke ( according to at least one side)

How can you determine the "blame" when the truth about what happened is still in doubt?

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 01:17 PM

No, they're not technically at war now, Teribus. That's true.

I am not saying that the Russians hands are clean in this affair. However, I think the Georgians brought the mess down upon themselves...or rather, their government leaders did.

It would be wise for the Russians to restrain the Ossetian militia, no doubt about that.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 01:11 PM

I can hear Willie Nelson...

Its just that same old zone
When Georgia's all been mined

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 01:08 PM

Well, well, well...

Think about this, folks... Who benefits most from Russia getting bogged down in another Checnya styled quaqmire??? Why is it that Putin waged his finger at Bush at the Olympics right after recievind the phone call about Georgia as he was leaving to head home to deal with the crisis??? Waht was the "Rose Revolution"???

When ya'll get those queastions answered then I've got a few more that's gonna make the selling of the Iraq war quite amatuerish compared to this...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 01:01 PM

Russian troops inside Georgia are there as peacekeepers, enforcing a peace supported by armour, artillery and air-power (Unlike any UN peacekeeping mission).

Now why would they refuse the assistance of South Ossetian Militamen? I can offer a few extremely good reasons:

- They do not add to the weight of what the Russians say they wish to do.

- They do not operate within the Russian "Chain of Command" in what could turn into a "hair trigger" international crisis situation of some consequence. That is if this whole thing hasn't been deliberately engineered by the Russians from the word go.

- Their presence can only serve to inflame the situation, whereas the Russians are stating that they wish to pacify the area.

PS: Little Hawk Russia and Georgia are not at war.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: bankley
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 12:50 PM

another really interesting fact, all jokes aside, is that reservists from the US State of Georgia recently participated in joint training exercises with the army in Georgia... confused yet ?

can't make this shit up folks.... where's Carlin when we need him ?

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 12:16 PM

It's a possibility, Teribus. I figure that the Russians see it that way. I think you'd see it that way if the shoe were on the other foot, and he were a Russian-educated Latin American lawyer being put in charge of some part of Latin America. I think you would consider him to be an agent of Russia in that case.

I think he is an agent of the USA...or a willing servant, which amounts to the same thing.

Sure the Russians are after their own selfish gains here. They're playing at empire, same as the Americans. They both play that game all the time, and the Russians just scored a small victory in the game.

***

"Does anyone have any idea how the mighty Russian Army requires the assistance of South Ossetian militiamen inside Georgian territory??"

They don't require it. ;-) But why would they refuse it? They play dirty in war, same as the Americans do. The Americans were happy to use one set of Afghans to slaughter another set of Afghans and they were happy to use Montagnards against the Viet Cong and catholics against buddhists. This is standard opportunism, and both sides do it whenever and wherever they can. Their objective? Victory.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 11:55 AM

From Little Hawks rather fanciful post.

"Now, here's some info about Mr Saakashvili. I have added some italics to one part:"

Point 1:
"Saakashvili graduated from the School of International Law of the Kiev State University (Ukraine) in 1992."

Question: Were there any others who did this at the same time? I cannot see how this qualifies him, or makes him a desirable candidate for recruitment as an agent, or a spy.

Point 2:
"He briefly worked as a human rights officer for the interim State Council of Georgia.........receiving a fellowship from the United States State Department (via the Edmund S. Muskie/FREEDOM Support Act (FSA) Graduate Fellowship Program)."

Question: Was anybody else ever offered a "fellowship" via this Program? Again, I cannot see how this qualifies him, or makes him a desirable candidate for recruitment as an agent, or a spy.

Point 3:
"In 1995, he also received a diploma from the International Institute of Human Rights in Strasbourg, France."

Question: Does this mean that he also a French agent, or spy?

Point 4:
"Saakashvili was approached by Zurab Zhvania, an old friend from Georgia who was working on behalf of President Eduard Shevardnadze to recruit talented young Georgians to enter politics."

Question: I take it from this that Eduard Shevardnadze is also an American agent, or spy. As of course Zurab Zhvania would have to be too.

Point 5:
"He stood in the December 1995 elections along with Zhvania, and both men won seats in parliament, standing for the Union of Citizens of Georgia, Shevardnadze's party."

Question: How did these men rig their elections? How did they know that they were going to win? Or was everyone who voted for them also agents and/or spies?

Point 6:
"It sounds to Little Hawk as if Mr Saakashvili is a hand-picked agent of the US government, chosen by the US State Department and educated as a lawyer at Columbia, then sent back to Georgia to get elected and then manage that country on behalf of American policy."

More Questions:

- On timeline LH how did the US Government know in 1992 that "The Rose Revolution" would take place in Georgia in 2003?

- Mikheil Saakashvili was not educated as a lawyer at Columbia, he had already graduated from Kiev in 1992, he studied for and obtained his Masters Degree in International Law at Columbia.

- "sent back to Georgia"? According to the Wikipedia entry you have "cut'n'pasted" He was invited back to Georgia by a fellow countryman at the behest of the President of Georgia. How does this get convoluted into his being sent back by the US Government?

- Timeline again Little Hawk, how did they (US State Department) get Mikheil Saakashvili on the list of potential candidates for the 1995 election? When he (Mikheil Saakashvili) left the USA and returned to Georgia, how did he (or the US State Department) know that he would be accepted as a candidate?

- Timeline, how did the US State Department know that Mikheil Saakashvili would lead the group who overthrew Eduard Shevardnadze? How did they know that after overthrowing Shevardnadze, he would be asked to lead? I mean let's face it, left school, studied in Ukraine, went to the USA, arrives back in December 1995. In 2003 he still must be relatively unknown in Georgia.

Very poor reasoning and complete and utter absence of logic.

My other question still stands:

Does anyone have any idea how the mighty Russian Army requires the assistance of South Ossetian militiamen inside Georgian territory??

I have got a pretty good idea as to why and what they are there for. I just want to hear some of the justifications put forward by the "fellow travellers".

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 11:39 AM

Heh! Yeah, that would be a typical little ploy, wouldn't it?

I bet Saakashvili is beginning to regret his reckless behaviour. It is unfortunate that so many ordinary people have suffered on account of it.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 11:01 AM

Naturally. Dick Cheney calls up Saakashvili in the middle of the night, could you do me a favour? You see, there is Democrat we don't want to be elected, so would you mind stirring up a war for us, so we can whip up a nationalistic lather thus letting our boy win?

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 10:40 AM

The more I read about this situation the more I smell neo-con politics... I think that Dick Cheney ordered this up for the sole purpose of creating an opportunity for McWar to whip up a nationalistic lather here in the US while Obama was on vacation...

I think Russia, Obama and the American people have been bamboozled yet again by the neocons, the war profiteers and Dick Cheney...

BTW, I for one am not a Georgian and I do not support Georgian genocide...

Shame on Georgia and shame on the neo-cons...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 10:36 AM

Rather different, as those Eastern European and Caucasian nations were brought into the Russian Empire and the USSR by conquest.
"But it does make me wonder whether the Americans here would consider that Alabama should have the same right to self determination that they would advocate for, say Chechnya, or is it only right when it's happening to the "other side"?

Ditto, the Brits. Should Cornwall have the right to freedom from UK rule?

I assure you, it's a serious question, not trolling for controversy. I am wondering where our conception of the rights of others runs out of steam, and more importantly WHY?

Don T"

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Paul Burke
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 10:20 AM

Have the Russians reached Atlanta yet? Will Savannah be renamed Putingrad?

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 10:10 AM

I believe McCain is a "Georgian". I expect him to invade someone just as soon as he gets into office and has the power to.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 10:06 AM

bush plan to "ease" tension
http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/idUSLD49893320080813



McCain is a Georgian http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/08/13/mccains-top-foreign-polic_n_118743.html

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Donuel
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 09:57 AM

McCain has received about $200 thousand dollars in April 08 from the President of Georgia via a lobbyist. NO wonder he says we all are Georgians.
Where is my Georgian $




Russian and Georgian troops had a quirky friendly encounter today with all sorts of social interactions until one shot was fired in the seizure of a reporter's camera and 100s of journalists went running from the scene.




Finally Condi has a job she is trained for. Still its cute that she has to work through France to practice her craft of statesmanship with Russia.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 09:46 AM

"NATO should not be not just an extension of American foreign policy"

That's all NATO ever has been, in my opinion. (although some of its members balk now and then...)

****

Now, here's some info about Mr Saakashvili. I have added some italics to one part:

"Mikheil Saakashvili was born in Tbilisi, capital of what was then the Georgian Soviet Socialist Republic in the Soviet Union, to a Georgian intelligentsia family. His father, Nikoloz Saakashvili, is a physician who still practices medicine in Tbilisi and directs a local Balneological Center. His mother, Giuli Alasania, is a historian who lectures at Tbilisi State University.

Saakashvili graduated from the School of International Law of the Kiev State University (Ukraine) in 1992. He briefly worked as a human rights officer for the interim State Council of Georgia following the overthrow of President Zviad Gamsakhurdia before receiving a fellowship from the United States State Department (via the Edmund S. Muskie/FREEDOM Support Act (FSA) Graduate Fellowship Program).

He received an LLM from Columbia Law School in 1994 and took classes in at The George Washington University Law School the following year. In 1995, he also received a diploma from the International Institute of Human Rights in Strasbourg, France.

After graduation, while on internship in the New York law firm of Patterson Belknap Webb & Tyler in early 1995, Saakashvili was approached by Zurab Zhvania, an old friend from Georgia who was working on behalf of President Eduard Shevardnadze to recruit talented young Georgians to enter politics. He stood in the December 1995 elections along with Zhvania, and both men won seats in parliament, standing for the Union of Citizens of Georgia, Shevardnadze's party."

It sounds to me as if Mr Saakashvili is a hand-picked agent of the US government, chosen by the US State Department and educated as a lawyer at Columbia, then sent back to Georgia to get elected and then manage that country on behalf of American policy.

I'm sure that's how the Russians see him...as a foreign-planted agent.

Imagine that. ;-) Now imagine a hand-picked Quebecois or Mexican lawyer educated in Moscow, chosen for a fellowship by the Kremlin, becoming the president of a newly independent Quebec, or a newly independent northern Mexico, and then declaring the area to be an enthusiastic ally of Russia. Imagine further that he launches an invasion of a separated enclave of Mexican-Americans or English-Canadians who successfully fought a war of secession in the early 90's because they didn't want to be part of the new Quebec or the new Northern Mexico nations.

Now you are beginning to get the picture of how Russia might look upon the situation in Georgia. How would the USA look upon either of the hypothetical situations that I have described above in Quebec or northern Mexico?

Why...the USA would go to war over it. At once! And so would Canada if it was Quebec that was involved. Furthermore, the war would not end with the mere rescue of the embattled separated enclave. It would end with the total military occupation of Quebec or Northern Mexico, and a regime change...and an end to the career of the Russian agent-elect in that region.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: pdq
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 09:34 AM

Yesterday, in the midst of a minor brainfart, I included North Ossetia with Abkhazia and South Ossetia as Georgian territory while knowing full well that it was placed within Russia at the same time that Georgia was granted independence.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 08:19 AM

Then Bruce, you ought to be explaining these things and if you must, use the links to support your explanations.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 08:11 AM

Jack,

I posted links before, and got comments how Georgia was at fault when the article said that Russia was advancing into Georgia proper after the ceasefire- I have to presume that some here have difficulty in actually reading linked aricles before commenting on them.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 08:02 AM

One would have to be totally insane or profoundly stupid to want Georgia to join NATO with its current President. Since he campaigned in 2004 on a platform of reigning in the breakaway republics it would be like signing up for a shooting war with Russia. Why does George Bush want to break up NATO?

BTW Bruce, since that is an AP article couldn't you have made a link?

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 07:57 AM

Now please feel free to correct me if I am wrong here but it was the Russians who sent troops into South Ossetia to protect what it views as it's citizens from attack from Georgian Government troops. Georgian troops having retreated and withdrawn completely from South Ossetia were then pursued into Georgia "proper" where the Russians claimed to be "demilitarising" areas from which any future attack may occur. After which they will hand over control of those areas to Georgian authority.

Now all that is understandable, but can anybody explain why Russian Forces undertaking these operations within Georgia feel the need to be accompanied by South Ossetian "Militias"??

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 07:50 AM

More Georgian agression...


Georgia: Russians move into Gori, explosions heard
Thursday, August 14, 2008 11:23:24 AM
By CHRISTOPHER TORCHIA

Explosions were heard near Gori on Thursday as a Russian troop withdrawal from the strategic city seemed to collapse. A fragile cease-fire appeared even more shaky as Russia's foreign minister declared that the world "can forget about any talk about Georgia's territorial integrity."

The declaration from Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov came simultaneously with the announcement that Russian President Dmitry Medvedev was meeting in the Kremlin with the leaders of Georgia's two separatist provinces.

"One can forget about any talk about Georgia's territorial integrity because, I believe, it is impossible to persuade South Ossetia and Abkhazia to agree with the logic that they can be forced back into the Georgian state," Lavrov told reporters.

At least five explosions were heard near Gori. It could not immediately be determined if the blasts were a renewal of fighting between Georgian and Russian forces, but they sounded similar to mortar shells and occurred after a tense confrontation between Russian and Georgian troops on the edge of the city.

The strategically located city is 15 miles south of South Ossetia, the separatist region where Russian and Georgian forces fought a brutal five-day battle. Russian troops entered Gori on Wednesday, after the two sides signed the cease-fire that called for their forces to pull back to the positions they held before the fighting started.

Georgia early Thursday said the Russians were leaving the city, but later alleged they were bringing in additional troops. Georgian government officials who had gone into the city for a possible handover left unexpectedly around midday, followed by a confrontation at a Russian checkpoint on Gori's outskirts that ended when Russian tanks sped toward the area and Georgian police forces retreated.

Some Georgian police said irregular fighters from South Ossetia had refused to leave Gori, where a BBC reporter saw them looting and burning Wednesday night.

The first of two planned U.S. aid flights arrived in the Georgian capital of Tbilisi late Wednesday, carrying cots, blankets and medicine for refugees displaced by the fighting. The shipment arrived on a C-17 military plane, an illustration of the close U.S.-Georgia military cooperation that has angered Russia.

Besides the hundreds killed since hostilities broke out, the United Nations estimates 100,000 Georgians have been uprooted; Russia says some 30,000 residents of South Ossetia fled into the neighboring Russian province of North Ossetia.

Gori was battered by sporadic Russian bombing before the cease-fire, with Russia saying it was targeting a military base near the city. The city, on Georgia's only significant east-west road, is only 60 miles west of Tbilisi.

The Russian troops' presence in Gori was viewed as a demonstration of the vulnerability of the capital.

Russian troops also appeared to be settling in elsewhere in Georgia.

An APTN camera crew saw Russian soldiers and military vehicles parked Thursday inside the Georgian government's elegant, heavily-gated residence in the western town of Zugdidi. Some of the soldiers wore blue peacekeeping helmets,others wore green camouflage helmets, all were heavily armed. The scene underlined how closely the soldiers Russia calls peacekeepers are allied with its military.

"The Russian troops are here. They are occupying," Ygor Gegenava, an elderly Zugdidi resident told the APTN crew. "We don't want them here. What we need is friendship and good relations with the Russian people."

Georgia, bordering the Black Sea between Turkey and Russia, was ruled by Moscow for most of the two centuries preceding the 1991 breakup of the Soviet Union.

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice was flying Thursday to France and then to Tbilisi to reinforce U.S. efforts to "rally the world in defense of a free Georgia."

"This is not 1968 and the invasion of Czechoslovakia where Russia can threaten a neighbor, occupy a capital, overthrow a government and get away with it. Things have changed," Rice said in Washington on Wednesday.

The Russian General Prosecutor's office on Thursday said it has formally opened a genocide probe into Georgian treatment of South Ossetians. For its part, Georgia this week filed a suit against Russia in the International Court of Justice, alleging murder, rape and mass expulsions in both provinces.

More homes in deserted ethnic Georgian villages were apparently set ablaze Wednesday, sending clouds of smoke over the foothills north of Tskhinvali, capital of breakaway South Ossetia.

One Russian colonel, who refused to give his name, blamed the fires on looters.

Those with ethnic Georgian backgrounds who have stayed behind -- like 70-year-old retired teacher Vinera Chebataryeva -- seem increasingly unwelcome in South Ossetia.

As she stood sobbing in her wrecked apartment near the center of Tskhinvali, Chebataryeva said a skirmish between Ossetian soldiers and a Georgian tank had gouged the two gaping shell holes in her wall, bashing in her piano and destroying her furniture.

Janna Kuzayeva, an ethnic Ossetian neighbor, claimed the Georgian tank fired the shell at Chebataryeva's apartment.

"We know for sure her brother spied for Georgians," said Kuzayeva. "We let her stay here, and now she's blaming everything on us."

Pointing to her broken door, Chebataryeva said Ossetian soldiers broke into her apartment and started firing at the Georgian tank from her windows.

North of Tskhinvali, a number of former Georgian communities have been abandoned due to the intense fighting of the last few days. "There isn't a single Georgian left in those villages," said Robert Kochi, a 45-year-old South Ossetian.

But he had little sympathy for his former Georgian neighbors, whom he accused of trying to drive out Ossetians. "They wanted to physically uproot us all," he said. "What other definition is there for genocide?"

------

Associated Press writers Misha Dzhindzhikhavili in Tbilisi; Mansur Mirovalev in Tskhinvali, Georgia; Jim Heintz in Moscow and Anne Gearan in Washington contributed to this report.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 06:09 AM

More from Wikipedia:

Not only did violent conflict break out towards the end of 1991, but when 100,000 South Ossetians fled, most "crossed the border into North Ossetia", that is, into Russia proper.





It's more than a bit of a stretch to read Sudetenland into the current crisis. People who vote with their feet make their view quite clear--except perhaps to those brilliant foreign policy analysts who are prisoners of their own Manichean world view and so clueless that they, for instance, mistake GWB for Churchill and do not recognize Bush's Iraq propaganda campaign. (To pick two purely theoretical examples.)

As Paul has pointed out, the other former members of the Soviet sphere of influence are plenty big enough to give Russia pause. To anybody who reads, it's plenty clear who the majority of South Ossetians see as the long-term aggressor. And it's not Russia.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Paul Burke
Date: 14 Aug 08 - 03:27 AM

I think it was Woodrow Wilson who said, after America had advocated the rights of small nations, that he hadn't realised that there were so many small nations. Where ruling elites base their popular appeal on lazy and stupid nationalism, there is bound to be oppression of minorities, and those minorities will assert their own identity. Often in mirror- image stupidity. See Tutsi/ Hutu. It's a folk version of divide and rule, and why I don't listen to Balkan folk music any more. That exciting, off-beat tune might be carrying words like Let's Kill Next Door's Kids Because Their Ancestors Beat Us In 1356.

In the conflict in question, it's clear that the Georgian state (in business since 1991) has failed to acknowledge its ethnic and social diversity, and that this has been one of the sources of the present conflict. It's also unclear why Saakashvili thought it necessary to occupy the South Ossetia by force just now, and that his action shows very clearly why such a country should not be in NATO. Or rather, if they join NATO, why Britain should leave- NATO should not be not just an extension of American foreign policy.

Though the Russians are clearly making an example of Georgia, I don't think Ukraine should be too worried, apart from buying plenty of warm clothes for the winter. It's too big and too accessible from the west, though Russia might well use democratic methods backed up by economic pressure to reassert influence. It's up to the EU and America to counter the economic pressures, and give the people there a modicum of prosperity bto defend.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 10:55 PM

>>"God said that they should do that."

Nope, wrong again. It was the United Nations. Please read a book. Nite, y'all.<<

Nope, that's wrong. I have read The Book.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: pdq
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 10:48 PM

"God said that they should do that."

Nope, wrong again. It was the United Nations. Please read a book. Nite, y'all.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 10:43 PM

The Jews moved about five million people to Israel where they can live next to people who have things in common.
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Is that why they are trying to kick the original inhabitants out?

I think they moved 5 million people into Israel because they think that God said that they should do that.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: bankley
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 10:34 PM

Is it getting Cold in here... or is it just me ?

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 09:52 PM

Georgia President calls down McCain (and Bush).

Here he is on Olbermann's show.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 09:03 PM

I don't think I would have too much problem with my state seceding from the US. Might be a big improvement.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: pdq
Date: 13 Aug 08 - 07:14 PM

Don T...No way to answer the question in general terms since each piece of inhabited land has a different history.

The following statement may be contoversial, but I believe it would be best for the Muslim population of Chechnya to find a friendly country and move. People can get up and go, land cannot. The Jews moved about five million people to Israel where they can live next to people who have things in common. They are able to feel safe and in control of their own future. The geographic location of Chechnya make it nearly impossible for Russia to give it up.