BS: War in Georgia (2008)

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: heric
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 08:13 PM

The USA has a lot of dupes falling prey to its duplicitous and nefarious scheme:

"Iran should understand one day that it's simply not possible to keep a negative role by continuing the enrichment of uranium. Prospective of Iran making a nuclear bomb is simply not acceptable. This is the Italian position which is very firm. We believe in the double-track strategy; on one hand, putting up a table, a generous offer, on the other hand, standing very firm on confirming that if Iran does not take seriously negotiations with Europe and with the international community, we cannot accept to stay inactive and we will have to implement in full."

-Italian Foreign Minister Franco Frattini

"I appeal again to the Iranian side no longer to play for time, but to give us a usable answer to our offers: Stop dallying."

-German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier

"We have to prepare for the worst, and the worst is war"

-French Foreign Minister Bernard Kouchner

"Iran should now implement relevant Security Council resolutions earnestly, and actively respond to the request and appeals of the international community to create conditions for resumption of negotiations."

-Chinese Foreign Ministry Spokesperson Liu Jianchao

"The offer that has been made to Iran on the one hand ... and the sanctions on the other, if they refuse to engage and reply, is exactly the right approach."

-British Foreign Secretary David Miliband
----------------------------------------------

The Soviet invasion of Georgia and the USA plot against Iran are not morally equivalent.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: pdq
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 07:42 PM

"Iran has never claimed to be building nuclear weapons...(t)his does not equate to having "nuclear ambitions"

Some problem here:

You are predisposed to believe anything an American enemy says and, at the same time, call everything the US government (military, politicians, etc.) lies. Your perception does not equal reality.

The US is involved in two huge police actions and has had to stay neutral in Sudan, Mozambique, Burma and other places where our military might (that is might) help. A few selected nuclear targets may be surgically removed in Iran, but it will be Israel who does the dirty part of the job.

Perhaps the slanted news you read does not tell you that Israeli intelligence has knowledge of exact locations of weapons facilities, how much "yellow cake" has been bought and how far along the enrichment process is at each facility.The government also sent a team into Iran and assasinated the leading scientist in the Iranian weapons program. Israel is in danger and a few nutcases in Iran will be delt with.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: heric
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 07:29 PM

I sometimes think you don't give enough credit to the EU, or many countries, Little Hawk. You always say "USA" and ignore the rest of them.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 07:13 PM

Iran has never claimed to be building nuclear weapons. They have claimed to be building nuclear power plants. This does not equate to having "nuclear ambitions" in the sense that you mean, pdq. They have a legal right to use nuclear power for peaceful purposes, and that is all they have ever claimed to be doing.

It is the USA that claims they are building nuclear weapons, and the USA might be lying about that in order to provide a pretext for an attack on Iran. They were lying about WMDs in Iraq in order to provide a pretext for a pre-emptive attack there. Have you forgotten?

How many times will you be fooled by the same scare tactic, pdq?

Now, if the USA could just provoke Iran into attacking them first somehow...wouldn't that be sweet? I'm sure they are busily working on some way to arrange that. There usually are ways...but it would depend on whether the Iranians could be stampeded into such a foolish action or not.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Nickhere
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 07:06 PM

It's so depressing and upsetting to see yet more images of people's lives destroyed. What's wrong with our so-called world-leaders? World-class idiots more like. Their solution for everything is 'bomb it'. Putin is a disgrace. After all the hopefulness of Glasnost, the guy seems intent on dargging us back into the worst aspects of the Cold War. Of course we now see anoth side effect of Bush's decision to unilaterally invade Iraq to effect regime change. When the US ambassador and other US officials try and lecture Russia, they are laughed out of the house. The Russians aren't taking any lectures from anyone - they've seen how it works: if you're big and strong enough you just tgrab what you can. No one will try and stop you, though they'll talk tough. The secret is to get your troops to occupy as much and as quickly as possible. Then, whenever the ceasefire comes, you can negotiate to give up a few square kilometres of invaded terroritory as a magnanimous gesture while keeping a whole lot more. No-one's going to re-invade to get you out, as long as you're a big powerful country.

But the Russians are the villians here - what they're doing is totally unacceptable and hypocritical (they pounded Chechnya for years for asking for the same thing as S.Ossetia is demanding of Georgia).

Anyway, you already know all that, I suppose I'm not saying anything knew here. I just wish I knew what we ordinary people could do to stop this madness. I'd go and march and protest if I thought it'd make a difference, but I did that over Iraq and I don't know what it achieved, but not much, I reckon. I suppose the only thing was that it helped prevent the neo-cons from having it all their own way without even a voice of dissent, and that's worth soemthing, but I really wish I could just wave a wand and spare those poor civilans the horrors they must endure.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: pdq
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 06:58 PM

Since 2001, Libya has declared an end to its era as a "bad actor" on the international stage, including ending nuclear its weapons program.

Syria has pledged to behave better, although it had no nuclear program that we know of.

North Korea has vowed to give up nuclear ambitions.

That leaves Iran, a country that is a signatory of the Nuclear Non-proliferation Treaty.

Perhaps a little show of force is needed? Most diplomatic channels say that the majority of Iranians do not want the dangers that come with being a nuclear bully.

War games? What are they going to hurt?

The Georgia conflict is a real "shooting war" and is an incursion by one of the world's three superpowers. This is a crime. It was carfully planned and is an exercise in extortion. It means that an important group of oil pipelines can be held hostage and that the desire of the state of Georgia to join (and be protected by) NATO is probably over.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 06:57 PM

Leadbelly, you have pegged me wrong. I am not American nor do I support Bush anymore than I do Putin. They are both arseholes but Putin is smarter!

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 06:45 PM

What exactly are you complaining about? If you want to post long lists of facts here, go right ahead. I'm certainly not stopping you.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: pdq
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 06:38 PM

This is an important subject that is best left to rational people and grownups. It has degenerated into an expose on the failure of the mental health delivery systems of at least four countries.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 06:38 PM

pdq - Go and look at a new thread Amos started about new war maneuvers in the Middle East. Interesting stuff to ponder.

I agree with you that we are on the eve of what could be the most serious confrontation with Russia since the Cuban missile crisis, we are on the eve of what may be the worst war ever seen, but the thing in Georgia is just a sideshow, in my opinion. The overall crisis in the world now has been provoked by the USA and Britain's attempts to secure control of all the oil in the Middle East and Caspian region...their next objective being to bring down the Iranian regime.

Russia is responding to that, as they must, and China will also eventually respond to it, as they must, but Russia and China have not provoked it. It has been provoked by neocon planners in the USA and Great Britain.

The problem is, pdq, you're living in the country that is the primary instigator and aggressor this time around if a great war happens. I don't expect you to get that. Most Germans didn't get it in '39 either. They thought they were defending Germany. They were naturally loyal to their own land and assumed that their government was in the right. Most people do that and they never question why.

If we happen to live through it, you might be surprised by what follows...

If we don't, well, c'est la vie.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 06:30 PM

Fuckin' grow up!

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: pdq
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 06:27 PM

Dear Liberal Squawk:

You have now contributed 22 posts out of the total of 161. That is 13.66% of the posts.

Facts contributed by you so far: 0.

Nihilistic anti-Bush and anti-American rants: too many to count. Besides, these could all be on any thread you post to.

This is a very important subject. We are having what may be the most serious conflict with Russia since the Cuban Missile Crisis. Do you really have no more to contribute than silly word games?

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 06:19 PM

Russian top military officials have insisted that they have never targeted oil pipelines, though Georgia has several times accused them of doing so.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080812/ts_nm/georgia_ossetia_dc_93

(Sniping is easy. It takes effort to find stuff out.)

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 05:57 PM

pdq, remember this Charlie Brown episode? ...

Charlie Brown is obviously mad as hell. He is yelling at someone in the distance whom we cannot see, apparently as they are walking away. They are evidently ignoring him. We suspect it might be Lucy, but who can say? He keeps yelling louder and louder.

"You think you're SMART, don't you???"

(pause)

"Well, you're not as smart as you THINK you are!!!!"

(pause)

"You're only as smart as I think you are, and I don't think you're very SMART!!!!!!"

(long pause)

"DO YOU FOLLOW ME???"

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 05:45 PM

Uhh...yeah... I think...

Could you say that again slowly?

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: pdq
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 05:43 PM

Liberal Hawk,

When you said that you are never right, and that statement is correct, that you makes yourself right about that point, nullfying the statement, and unfortunately, making you wrong again.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 05:43 PM

Oh come on, the Russians must have a go with their 25 year old kit! And they are not going to do it when both the British and US armies are not fully committed, now are they?? Will somebody please ask the Russians to invade Las Malvinas once and for all.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 05:30 PM

Let's say that someone here managed to win some minor verbal point or other in a lengthy political argument...

Then what?

Would it change what happens in Georgia? Would it change what happens anywhere? ;-)

No. But it would give that person a glorious sense of their own ego reinforcement that could probably carry them, oh, for a day or two...

(sigh) These things are so ephemeral. I won an argument with some guy named Richard back in high school. I can't remember what it was about anymore, but I know this: he didn't have his facts right. Ha! He turned out to be wrong. Wrong, I tell you, wrong! But does anyone remember now (except me)? No. And does anyone care? No. And did it change anything. No.

There's simply no justice! ;-D

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: pdq
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 05:27 PM

...from CarolC's link:

"Georgia hosts an important pipeline carrying oil from the Caspian to the West and the fighting has unsettled oil markets, though the pipeline itself has not been touched by the conflict."

It seems to be intact from all sources. The problem is your disinformation misquote claiming that it was bombed. Saakashvili said no such thing. Please find something to support your clkaim the Saakashvili or a person in his government said what you claim.

"Georgia said several times..."

Who? Where? When? With what governmental authority? I suspect a journalist with an axe to grind. Perhaps the Russian propaganda machine. They do have one of the world's finest, you know.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: bobad
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 05:14 PM

Russia did apparently bomb a pipeline in southern Georgia but there was no damage. Source

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: pdq
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 05:11 PM

1. CarolC will not answer the question. I have asked her several including "did the US and coalition forces have a UN mandate to evict Saddam Hussein's military from Kuwait in 1991or did we not?" She said she had no opinion.

2. Please do not tell other people what they said or guess at what they think. Read their posts and attempt a bit of intellectual honesty.

3. Lying and bombing people's homes are no offences of equal weight.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 05:05 PM

Georgia hosts an important pipeline carrying oil from the Caspian to the West and the fighting has unsettled oil markets, though the pipeline itself has not been touched by the conflict.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080812/ts_nm/georgia_ossetia_dc_93

(Sniping is easy. Finding stuff out takes effort.)

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 05:02 PM

Oh, this oughta be good... ;-) Carol never says anything she can't back up, pdq. Not in my experience.

What makes you think that Georgian politicians are so pure that they wouldn't stoop to lying and misleading? They're like other politicians. They do things like that.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: pdq
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 04:58 PM

"Georgia has been lying because they reported that Russia had bombed oil pipelines"

And where did you get that tidbit? I've been following this story and that is news tome. You probably got it from the same people who say "Bush blamed the 9/11 attacks on Iraq and that is why we went to war"

In plain words, both statements are bunk. Certainly the disinformation "quote" of Bush is bunk. Please support your claim about the Georgian statement.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 04:55 PM

It wouldn't be all that surprising if both sides were lying (either directly or by omission). That's what usually happens.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 04:50 PM

We know that Georgia has been lying because they reported that Russia had bombed oil pipelines, but independent observers have said that no pipelines have been bombed.

So I guess I'm the one who is presenting facts with which others are disagreeing.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 04:45 PM

The thing I like about you, Bearded Bruce, is that you have a good sense of humour* (*Canadian spelling) and an ability to meet someone else halfway and find some common ground. That does a lot to bring some reasonableness into a discussion.

pdq - I have no problem with BB's facts...nor Carol's. They do such a good job providing those that they don't need any additional help from me. ;-) So I don't spend much time on the "cut and paste" routine, because it's already been well taken care of. What I am doing instead is attempting (as usual) to get various people here to be flexible enough to think outside their own narrow political/cultural box for a change. If they did, then they would not be so easily fooled by crass emotive propaganda such as is usually spewed by their political leaders and their media, who couldn't care less about "the facts"...but only about whipping up an emotional frenzy of some kind in which "the other side" (whoever that might be) is made to look evil.

When the Russians do the same kind of things you (Americans) do, you think it's wrong, but you don't think it's wrong when you do it. I find that funny. I think you should become more self-aware.

Do like in the Bible, pdq....check out the beam in your own national eye.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 04:11 PM

The balance of power has shifted and will continue to shift.
You Conservatives had better take note.
The world you want to live in is disintegrating....get used to it ...in fact enjoy it while you can, as the next move, ten fifteen years down the line will be piracy of energy and resources.

Your "democracies" will be swept away, there will be nothing but blind brutal power. The powerful will take from the weak.....Unless we all start to think.......and I don't mean...... think Obama can save America or the West.....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 04:11 PM

"But the most urgent need is to see clearly what is taking place. As the crisis deepened, one could hear in Washington the usual attempts to blame the victim, as if Georgia somehow deserved this fate because its elected government had opted for friendly relations with the West. There were also the predictable efforts to score domestic political points.

Fortunately, both candidates for president rose above such temptations, issuing statements that showed they understand the moral calculus and the stakes -- and that the U.S. election will not yield a president any more tolerant of the Kremlin's bullying. Yesterday morning, Sen. John McCain (R) condemned the attacks, outlined a series of policy responses and said, "We must remind Russia's leaders that the benefits they enjoy from being part of the civilized world require their respect for the values, stability and peace of that world." Later in the day, Sen. Barack Obama (D) said, "There is no possible justification for these attacks" and added: "I have consistently called for deepening relations between Georgia and transatlantic institutions, including a Membership Action Plan for NATO, and we must continue to press for that deeper relationship." "

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/11/AR2008081102144.html

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 03:52 PM

1. My "Facts" are from sources that I cannot verify ( from both sides- someone is lying, but I do not know who)

2. CarolC and I have and do agree on some topics.

3. LH has given me permission!

"No, I have no objection to you having your own country's self-interest in mind. That's natural."

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: akenaton
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 03:49 PM

Nice to see BB quoting Chatham House.

He wasn't so keen on them when they gave their assesment of the Iraq War!!

Bruce is VERY selective with his quotes....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: pdq
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 03:49 PM

...ah, a normal day at Mudcat:


beardedbruce lays out the facts

Carol says "nay!"

Liberal Hawk goes "squawk!, squawk!, squawk!"

in his nihilistic way

lookey there now


(appologies to Burl Ives)

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 03:33 PM

Georgia conflict
Updated 1h 3m ago
By Jeffrey Stinson, USA TODAY

LONDON — In crushing Georgia, Russia has obtained control over new territory, weakened a neighbor that had closely aligned itself with the United States and sent a message to other neighboring nations that it's a major force to be reckoned with, analysts said.
"This very much shows that Russia calls the shots in the region," said James Nixey, who heads the Russia and Eurasia program for the London foreign policy think tank Chatham House. "It shows that when Russia wants to throw its weight around, it can."

Russian forces have full control of South Ossetia and Abkhazia, another breakaway province. Both have populations that have acted independently from Georgia and had aligned themselves with Moscow for the last 16 years.

Georgian President Mikhail Saakashvili said as much Tuesday, telling thousands of Georgians in an afternoon speech downtown in the capital Tblisi that his government will declare the two regions occupied Russian territory.

In addition, he said, Georgia will declare the Russians as peacekeepers there to prevent any further conflict

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: pdq
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 03:14 PM

History of Georgia

Since ancient times Georgia has been populated by the ancestors of Kartvelian tribes. They established agricultural traditions: sowed wheat, had highly developed viticulture of endemic species of grapes and developed cattle breeding economy.

In the XII-VIII centuries B.C. in south-west part of historic Georgia (south-east of the Black Sea), existed Diaokh kingdom (later known as Tao, nowadays in Turkey). Kolkhic Kingdom was located on the Eastern coast of the Black Sea since the VI century BC (from Apsarosi to old Psou). Since the end of the IV century and the beginning of III century in Eastern Georgia there formed Kartli's Kingdom, with the capital Mtskheta; the first King of Kartli was Parnavaz. The geographical location of Georgia became the reason of cooperation with different countries and at the same time, chellenged the strong interest of the conquerors, as well. From the ancient times Iran, Rome, Bizanty, Arabic States, Turk-Selchucs, Mongols, Osmals, Russians were trying to strengthen their influence, that caused unfavoirable results for the country, destroyed its unity and turned Georgia into the territory for permanent military operation.

Heathen time left grand ruins of palaces, temples, fortresses and towns, (Uplistsikhe, Armazi, Urbnisi, Vani etc,.). the unique heritage of art, gold-smiting, ceramic works, mosaic paintings, etc.

In the first century A.D.. Georgia was misssioned by first Christians. The Christianity was declared as the state religion in the beginning of the IV century (337) while the ruling of King Mirian, as a result of saint Nino Kabadokieli preaching.

History of Georgian always has always been characterised by the tendency of unification. The Georgian satelites were uniting, separating, and then distributing between the conquerors. Untill the Parnavazian time the ruling period of Vakhtang Gorgasali (the new epoch) was also very important. During this period, while fighting against Iran conquerors, Georgian Church gained the Autokephalia At the same period were built: the stone building of Svetitskhoveli cathedral (the first building of Svetitskhoveli was built during the ruling of king Mirian), the Castle-town Ujarma, Artanuji, Cheremi, etc.

Since the ruling of Arabians (at the end of VII-IX century), unity of Georgia was broke up into several small separate kingdoms: Abkhaz Kingdom (capital Kutaisi) in West Georgia, Kakheti (capital Tianeti) and Hereti (capital Shaki) Kingdoms in East Georgia and South-west Georgian Kingdom (Tao-Klarjeti, capital Artanuji) under the leadership of Bagrationi Dynasty.

Despite of such difficult political situations Georgian culture was gently developing. Were built such brilliant simples of Georgian architecture, as: Bolnisi Sioni(V c.). Mtskheta Jvari (VI c.), Oshki, Bana and other great temples, were translated theological literature and were written Georgian Agiographical stories.

In the 970s Bagrat Bagrationi became the King of the country (975-1014) and by uniting separate Georgian kingdoms, was formed State of Georgia, which later become United Georgian Feudal Monarchy. As the Great United State Georgia existed until the XV century. Despite the hard battles with Turk-Selchuks (1070s and the, beginning of the XII century) 100 year ruling of Mongols (XIII - XIV centuries) The Country was developing . In the XII century Georgia became the strongest Christian State in the Near East, which was laid from Nicopsia (nowadays Tuapse) to Darubandi.

The most powerful Georgia was during the King David IV - Agmashenebeli (1089-1125) and the Queen Tamar (1184-1213). It was the time of strengthening and developing Georgian politics, culture and economy. In that period was written history of whole Georgia ('Kartlis Tskhovreba') and various philosophic tractates, was created the legal basis for jurisdiction, were built Alaverdi, Bagrati, Bana great temples, Gelati monastery complex, Vardzia Cave Town, etc.

The churches and monasteries at the same time were used as cultural and educational centers, where training of young pupils, translation of religious-philosophic literature and origin ones took place. The most popular and well-known Georgian poem Shota Rustaveli's 'Vepkhistkaosani' The Knight in the Tigers Skeen was created.

Since the XVI century Georgia was separated into small kingdoms and surrounded by Muslim countries Kingdom was fighting to save its religion and to survive.

After the Russian Empire appeared at the Eastern political arena, the belief for survival for Georgians was connected with Orthodox Christian Russia. Since the 2nd half of the XVII century the King of Kartl-Kakheti Erekle the II (1745-1798) and the King of Imereti Solomon (1754-1784) were fighting against Persia and Otoman Empire. In 1801 Russian Empire violated the 'Georgievsk Treaty.' They occupied Eastern Georgia and abrogated the Kartl- Kakheti kingdom. In 1803 Russians made anschluss of Imereti and other West Georgian principalities were occupied and Georgia's whole territory and divided as a Tbilisi and Kutaisi Guberny, the constitutive parts of Empire.

In 1864, there was Abolished selfdom in Georgia, which supported to develop capitalism in the country. In these difficult conditions the cultural activities were continuing. There were written historical and philosophic productions, were provided scientific observations, were existing publish-houses, theatres, libraries, etc. Leading Georgian intellectuals was fighting to improve national language and culture.

After the 1917 Revolution, Transcaucasia was separated from Russian Empire. In 26 May of 1918 the Independence of Georgia was declared. In 1920 was sign the agreement between Georgian Republic and Soviet Russia about non-aggression pact. In the 25-th of February of 1921 the 11-th Red Army abolished the agreement between Russia and Georgia and occupied country.

In 1991 After abolishing Soviet Putchi and collapse of the Soviet Union, Georgia gained back its independence (officially declared in 26 May of 1991)."

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 03:10 PM

I have nothing but criticism for Russia's handling of Chechnya. What Russia has been doing with Chechnya is precisely the same thing that Georgia is trying to do with South Ossetia. Both are wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 03:07 PM

"Carol, I have said for many years, and from the beginning of this thread, that Georgia's actions were wrong, but Russia is using Ossetia as an excuse to further it's own goals, which are quite obvious even to people who have never been in Russia."

True. I can't recall the Russians being greatly interested in allowing Chechnya to secede. Seems to me they bombed the shit out of the place.

Lots of pot 'n kettle going on in that part of the world, and it's STILL all about control of oil, gas, etc. etc. etc.

Don T

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 02:47 PM

"I do think that the Russians have exceeded their mandate in regards to Georgia, yes. They will probably go ahead and do whatever they think they can get away with now, and whatever they think will work out best for them. That's what great powers do. (and sometimes they miscalculate badly in that regard too) "


Agreed.


"Are you aware, sir, that Canada has the world's largest reserves of untamed beaver? Are you??? I think that makes us just as important as India, if not more so. ;-)"


Yes, I was aware of that- but untamed is the key word.


"Plus, we are way ahead of them in maple syrup."

But they have better spices and teas- so I stand by my assessment.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: pdq
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 02:43 PM

...and from Wiki...remember that the town of Beslan where the school massacre occurred was in North Ossetia:

"Riyadus Salihiin, later known as Islamic Brigade of Shaheeds, was the name of a shahid ('martyr') brigade of Chechen suicide attackers founded in 2002. Its amir (leader) was the Chechen commander Shamil Basayev, who died in July 2006.

It is claimed that Riyadus Salihiin was responsible for the 2002 Grozny truck bombing which killed 83 people and blew up the Chechen republic's government headquarters in the Grozny as well as the hostake-taking in a school in Beslan in 2004 which resulted in at least 386 casualties."

...another article:

"...It was also claimed that the SNO in Beslan was used by Ossetian militia as an internment camp for Ingush civilians during the 1992 Ossetian-Ingush conflict, and it was chosen as a target because of this connection. According to media reports, SNO was one of several buildings in which North Ossetians had held Ingush citizens, many of them women and children; the hostages sat on the gymnasium floor, deprived of food and water, just as the Ossetians would do in the 2004 siege, and several male hostages were hauled and executed outside. Beslan, like the nearby Mozdok, was also the site of an airfield used by the Russian military aviation for its operation in Chechnya since 1994.

The initial attack took place on September 1, the traditional start of the Russian school year, referred to as 'First September' or 'Day of Knowledge'. On this day, the children, accompanied by their parents and other relatives, attend ceremonies hosted by their school. Because of the pupils and family members attending the Day of Knowledge festivities, the number of people in the schools was considerably higher than usual for a normal school day." {small part of article}

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 02:40 PM

"And India is 20 times ( at least) more important than Canada..."

Oh!!! I am deeply offended that you would say that, BB. Are you aware, sir, that Canada has the world's largest reserves of untamed beaver? Are you??? I think that makes us just as important as India, if not more so. ;-) Plus, we are way ahead of them in maple syrup.

No, I have no objection to you having your own country's self-interest in mind. That's natural.

I do think that the Russians have exceeded their mandate in regards to Georgia, yes. They will probably go ahead and do whatever they think they can get away with now, and whatever they think will work out best for them. That's what great powers do. (and sometimes they miscalculate badly in that regard too)

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 02:37 PM

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080812/ap_on_re_eu/georgia_russia

Ethnic clensing- of Georgians...

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 02:32 PM

I googled part of that copy/paste, and this is all that came up...

In villages around the South Ossetian provincial capital, separatist fighters reportedly were setting fire to Georgian houses and searching for hidden Georgian fighters

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 02:06 PM

In villages around the South Ossetian provincial capital, separatist fighters reportedly were setting fire to Georgian houses and searching for hidden Georgian fighters.

An AP photographer in the village of Ruisi near South Ossetia saw fresh damage from a Russian air raid that locals said came just 30 minutes before Medvedev's televised statement.

Residents said three villagers were killed and another five wounded when a Russian warplane raided the village. One slain victim, 77-year old Amiran Vardzelashvili, was struck by a fragment in the heart while was working in a field.

The Georgian government said another nearby village, Sakorinto, also was bombed after Medvedev announcing a halt to fighting, as was an ambulance in the Black Sea province of Adzharia.

The U.N. and NATO called meetings Tuesday to deal with the conflict, while Poland's president and the leaders of four former Soviet republics flew to Georgia for a meeting of solidarity with Saakashvili.

"The Russian state has once again shown its face, its true face," said Poland's Lech Kaczynski, who was being joined by counterparts from Lithuania, Estonia, Ukraine and Latvia.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: pdq
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 02:06 PM

...this is a fairly neutral satement from "minorityrights.org/":

"...North Ossetia sent aid to its ethnic kin in South Ossetia to support their struggle with Georgia. There have also been calls for the unification of the two regions, although mainly from South Ossetia. North Ossetian leaders periodically make public statements in favour of the union of North Ossetia with South Ossetia, formally part of Georgia but de facto enjoying a kind of quasi-independence.

 In 1998 Aleksandr Dzasokhov, a former Communist official, became president of North Ossetia; he was re-elected in 2002. Dzasokhov's presidency was associated with the entrenchment of clan politics and corruption, one of the factors contributing to the rise of a rebel movement with ties to the Chechen resistance. Rebels carried out bombing attacks on Russian border guards, passenger trains and military targets in 2002-4.

The authority of the North Ossetian leadership was rocked by the Beslan massacre in September 2004, when a hostage-taking operation mounted by Chechen militants resulted in the deaths of over 300 people, most of them children. Residents of Beslan and regional opposition parties mounted continuous protests against Dzasokhov's leadership after the massacre. He announced his resignation on 31 May 2005. According to some analysts, Dzasokhov had also lost credibility with the Kremlin due to the prominence of corruption and clan politics in North Ossetia. Dzasokhov was replaced by Taimuraz Mamsurov.

Despite its reputation as the most loyal territory to Moscow in the North Caucasus, North Ossetia was also affected by wider instability in the region in 2005-6, suffering a number of attacks that some observers defined as an insurgency. According to reports leader of the Chechen resistance Abdul-Khalim Sadullaev designated North Ossetia a separate 'front' in the struggle against Moscow and appointed an Ossetian as commander of operations in the republic. North Ossetia was subsequently struck by a number of attacks, including an attack on an electricity substation in June 2005, an attempt to blow up gas pipelines supplying Georgia in September, an ambush of transport carrying officials from the Chechen Prosecutor's Office and an attack on Russian Interior Ministry troops in October. In February 2006 three home-made bombs went off in casinos and gambling clubs in the republican capital Vladikavkaz, killing two and wounding 25."

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 02:03 PM

Both sides have traded accusations of genocide.

Russia has accused Georgia of killing more than 2,000 people, mostly civilians, in the separatist province of South Ossetia. The claim couldn't be independently confirmed, but witnesses who fled the area over the weekend said hundreds had died.

Many Georgians also have been killed in the fighting and on Tuesday, the Georgian security council said it filed a lawsuit in the International Court of Justice for alleged ethnic cleansing. The overall death toll was expected to rise because large areas of Georgia were still too dangerous for journalists to enter and see the true scope of the damage.

"It feels like an annexed country," said Lasha Margiana, the local administrator in one of the villages in the Kodori Gorge, where fleeing Georgians said the entire population had abandoned their homes.

http://www.mail.com/Article.aspx?articlepath=APNews\Top-Headlines\20080812\Georgia-Russia.xml&cat=topheadlines&subcat=&pageid=1

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Leadbelly
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 02:00 PM

Today, german defense minister Jung said, despite of this conflict he is seeing perspectives for Georgia to join the Nato.
"Bundesverteidigungsminister Franz Josef Jung (CDU) sieht trotz des Konflikts Perspektiven für einen NATO-Beitritt Georgiens."

That's unbelievable! The man who caused these troubles is proposed to get a reward.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 01:52 PM

So, what is wrong for me wanting my country to act in its own self interest?


At present, Russia has gone beyond its mandate in Ossetia. Thus, presently, Russia is wrong ( both from a moral sense and from the viewpoint of the self-interest of the country I am a citizen of).


If we did everything based on the self-interste of the MOST people, we would be backing China at all times. And India is 20 times ( at least) more important than Canada...

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 01:30 PM

"a. IF the US is wrong for its actions in Iraq and Afghanistan, then Russia is wrong re Georgia.

b. If Russia is right re Georgia, then the US is right re Iraq et al."


Heh! You seem to somehow be missing my point, BB. I don't know how....I thought I made it quite clear.

I have already stated that the Russians have a right to defend people in South Ossetia, but NOT to invade the rest of Georgia. My position is the same on Iraq. The USA had a right to eject Iraqi forces from Kuwait in '91, but they did NOT have a right to continue persecuting the nation of Iraq for years after that was accomplished and they did not have a right to launch an invasion of Iraq in 2003...nor any real excuse to either.

They likewise did not, in my opinion, have a right to invade Afghanistan. 911 was not an attack by one nation on another. It was a criminal act by a secret group of conspirators, not an attack by the armed forces of Afghanistan or any other nation. It should have been treated as an international criminal investigation procedure, not turned into an excuse for a war.

Now, Russia has had a totally valid excuse to get involved in defending Ossetia, just as the USA had a totally valid excuse to come to the aid of Kuwait in '91. So far, so good. They are using that valid excuse to take further advantage when they start invading other parts of Georgia. Now THAT I do not support.

*****

What I am trying to convey to pdq is simply this: If he would drop the stereotype of "evil Russians" out of his head for a change and start thinking of them the way he thinks of his own nation...as normal human beings with their own concerns...he would see that they are acting as a nation in their own self-interest just the way the USA normally acts.

That doesn't make everything they do morally right, and I'm not saying it does. But drop the bullshit propaganda, for God's sake, stop dividing the world up into "the guys in the white hats and the guys in the black hats", and face reality for a change.

This isn't some huge confrontation between "good and evil", with us in the West being "good" and the Russians being "evil". This is normal pragmatic power politics in the world.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Leadbelly
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 01:29 PM

Sorry, but Iraq was meant. Obviously, everbody knows apart from me.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 01:25 PM

Well said.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 12 Aug 08 - 01:17 PM

"Putin doesn't like NATO, Bush, the president of Georgia or anyone else who stands up to the Russian bear."

Naturally. You would feel exactly the same way if you were the leader of Russia, pdq.

You have to stop seeing certain other people (like the Russians) as cardboard stereotypes and realize that just like you or anyone else they:

1. are proud of their country
2. are patriots
3. believe in their country
4. and will defend its interests whenever and wherever they can

Putin is doing exactly what most of his own people would want him to do. If you were a Russian, you'd probably love him. ;-) You'd be cheering his "get tough" stand in regards to the Georgians, because that's how you normally think regarding foreign policy when the shoe is on the other foot and it's American interests that are involved.

Look in the mirror, man. See your reflection. They are just like you. They defend their own interests whenever and wherever they can....and they are not "evil". They're just human.