BS: War in Georgia (2008)

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Leadbelly
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 02:42 PM

Thinking of the massacre in South Ossetia for which Saakashvili has to take resposibility it reminds me of another "vili" aka Stalin.
He was a Georgian, too.
Seems to be some kind of tradition to act like this.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 02:40 PM

Carol, I don't think anyone here is saying that Russia should get out of South Ossetia, but they should get out of the rest of Georgia, if the issue truly is about Ossetia. I think the biggest issue here is actualy the UKRAINE. What do these terms tell you:
Donbass. Crimea. Kharkov.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 02:39 PM

That would be a good strategic move on the part of the Russians. Typical great power politics, as I've said.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: pdq
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 02:23 PM

"...Moscow's timing suggests that Putin seeks to overthrow Saakashvili well ahead of our elections, and thus avoid beginning relations with the next president on an overtly confrontational note." ~ bb

At least a few people here are thinking clearly.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 02:09 PM

"Carol, I have said for many years, and from the beginning of this thread, that Georgia's actions were wrong, but Russia is using Ossetia as an excuse to further it's own goals, which are quite obvious even to people who have never been in Russia."

Dead right again, Volgadon. Like I said, it's normal great power (and small power) politics.

Both Georgia and Russia have acted entirely in their own self-interest...just as the USA always acts entirely in its own self-interest. It is facile to endow any of these national participants with a halo of righteousness, because they are all simply pursuing pragmatic ends to what they imagine to be their own benefit. You listening, pdq? ;-)

The Georgians miscalculated, that's all. They underestimated the dangers of a massive Russian response, and they have probably overestimated the extent to which the West will go to help them out.

I would certainly not start a Third World War with Russia over Georgia or South Ossetia, I'll tell you that. To do so would be idiotic, not to mention futile.

Have the Russians ever started a Third World War over the many USA interventions in Latin America? Nope. The one time there was a real danger of that was in the Cuban crisis, but that was because Russia had installed nuclear missiles in Cuba. The West has not installed nuclear missiles in Georgia.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 02:01 PM

Certainly the Russians have their own agenda. But calling for the Russians to leave South Ossetia while Georgia is still massacring civilians there is quite obviously wrong. And saying that Georgia had a right to separate from Russia, but South Ossetia does not have a right to separate from Georgia is also quite obviously wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 01:58 PM

The Washington Post is also using weasel wording to promote its hidden agenda. South Ossetia was already separated from Georgia, and was functioning independently from Georgia (since 1992). Georgia started the fighting by bombing and shelling civilian population centers in South Ossetia in order to undo what had already been done more than a decade before.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 01:50 PM

Carol, I have said for many years, and from the beginning of this thread, that Georgia's actions were wrong, but Russia is using Ossetia as an excuse to further it's own goals, which are quite obvious even to people who have never been in Russia.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: pdq
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 01:28 PM

"Everyone else seems to think the government of Georgia should be allowed (with the help of the US), to massacre civilians in South Ossetia unhindered." ~ CarolC

Bunk

"They're saying 'You can't go, and we will happily kill you by the thousands to prevent you from doing so.' That's what the Serbs said to Kosovo, isn't it?" ~ LH

Bunk rides again.

Kosovo was taken from historic owners the Serbs (Orthodox) by Muslims who had slowly but intentionally moved into Serbian territory as an expansion move, both by ethnic Albanians and Muslims. Pure expansionism.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 01:21 PM

Latvia, Lithuania an Estonia border Russia. Aren't they in NATO? Should they be worried?

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 01:15 PM

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/10/AR2008081001870.html

Exactly what happened in South Ossetia last week is unclear. Each side will argue its own version. But we know, without doubt, that Georgia was responding to repeated provocative attacks by South Ossetian separatists controlled and funded by Moscow. This is a not a war Georgia wanted; it believed that it was slowly gaining ground in South Ossetia through a strategy of soft power.

Whatever mistakes Tbilisi has made, they cannot justify Russia's actions. Moscow has invaded a neighbor, an illegal act of aggression that violates the U.N. Charter and fundamental principles of cooperation and security in Europe. Beginning a well-planned war (including cyber-warfare) as the Olympics were opening violates the ancient tradition of a truce to conflict during the Games. And Russia's willingness to create a war zone 25 miles from the Black Sea city of Sochi, where it is to host the Winter Games in 2014, hardly demonstrates its commitment to Olympic ideals. In contrast, Moscow's timing suggests that Putin seeks to overthrow Saakashvili well ahead of our elections, and thus avoid beginning relations with the next president on an overtly confrontational note.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: kendall
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 01:12 PM

What ever happened to minding your own business? We haven't tried that lately.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 01:06 PM

That sounds dead right to me, Volgadon. As you say, it's about power. It is also about regional spheres of influence.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 01:05 PM

"This weekend's fighting was provoked by Russian-advised South Ossetian separatists; Georgia foolishly responded to the provocation; and Russia was ready to roll in with a large armored force. Does Russia now want to advance further into Georgia? Or does it want to keep Georgia's democracy in a perpetual state of tension? Neither is acceptable, and the West should be formulating policies for either possibility.


In the longer term, the West will have to decide whether to continue its effort to soothe and placate Mr. Putin, as if he were a petulant child who could be bought off with candy and words of praise, or whether to rise to the geopolitical challenge his regime poses. Separate European nations (especially Germany) have thought that they could save themselves by cutting separate deals with Russia for oil and gas. They have tried to avert their eyes as Russia cut oil supplies to show its displeasure with European Union members such as the Czech Republic or Lithuania. Will they now unite to strengthen their position?

Meanwhile, as nations on Russia's periphery such as Georgia and Ukraine have turned west for help in safeguarding their independence, the West has responded ambivalently, offering sympathy but often little else. Russia's theory no doubt is that its aggression in Georgia will scare the West further away. Will that theory, too, harden into ugly truth, or will the West understand that it cannot buy peace by tendering the sovereignty of vulnerable nations? "

from http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/10/AR2008081001840.html

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 01:02 PM

The primary issue here is not oil, it is power. Russia does not want it's greatest rival right on it's doorstep. Georgia, confident that they have USA backing, decided to reassert it's territorial claims when they thought the world would be busy. Russia seized on the chance to teach Georgia a lesson, namely- that the West can't garauntee their safety. Not only Georgia, but the Ukraine too.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 12:51 PM

Obama's the only one who is calling for both sides to stop. Everyone else seems to think the government of Georgia should be allowed (with the help of the US), to massacre civilians in South Ossetia unhindered. Perhaps it's ethnic cleansing of the South Ossetians that Georgia (and the US) has in mind.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 12:46 PM

Obama vs. McCain on Russia vs. Georgia
Candidates Speak Out on Growing International Crisis
By JOHN HENDREN
Aug. 10, 2008
For Russia and Georgia, the conflict in South Ossetia is now a long-simmering war.

Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., left, and Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz.
(ABC News Photo Illustration)For Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., and Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., it is the first chance for the presidential candidates to demonstrate their response to an international crisis.

McCain has called Russia's Vladimir Putin many things, few of them good. He's called Putin "a totalitarian dictator" and famously said he looked into his eyes and saw three letters "K, G and B," a reference to Putin's former employer, the Soviet spy agency. And when hostilities erupted along the Georgia-Russia border, McCain was characteristically bold and quick to act.

He spoke by phone to Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili and White House National Security Advisor Stephen Hadley, then quickly rearranged his schedule to make his statement on the crisis his first event of the day. And he didn't mince words.

"Russia should immediately and unconditionally cease its military operations and withdraw all forces from sovereign Georgian territory," he said in a morning statement.

Obama also condemned the Russian invasion. But he cast a wider net for advice -- including Hadley, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, and his foreign policy advisors. When he spoke, he was characteristically circumspect.

"I think it is important at this point for all sides to show restraint and to stop this armed conflict," Obama said. The candidates' responses reveal a stark difference in governing style, and both seem carefully calibrated to appeal to American voters.


"John McCain is going to be saying, 'I know what I am talking about foreign policy, and I'm tough enough to lead," said Norman Ornstein, a political analyst with the American Enterprise Institute. "Barack Obama is going to be saying, 'I know what I am talking about in foreign policy, and I'm nuanced enough that I am not going shooting from the hip the way John McCain does."

The bitter battle over who's performed best has already begun. A McCain aide calls Obama "bizarrely in sync with Moscow." Obama's campaign suggested McCain had a conflict of interest because his foreign policy advisor, Randy Scheunemann, had lobbied for Georgia.


Speaking out carries other risks.

"They must be very cautious in being used by a party in this very explosive situation," said Stephen Hess of the Brookings Institution. "The initial McCain statement seemed very overheated, as not one of extreme caution."


Nevertheless, McCain and Obama, alike, seem to be betting their response to the crisis will help them most in November.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 12:46 PM

I'm not surprised that the Russians are perturbed about Georgia wanting to join NATO.

How would the USA feel if Quebec left Canada, let's say, declared independence and stated its desire to join a re-established Warsaw Pact, allying itself with Russia?

Or what if Mexico did that? What then? What would the USA say about that?

Georgia borders on Russia. Don't forget that. Now put yourself in Russian shoes and imagine their strategic concerns.

They are playing normal great power politics.

The Georgians are playing normal small power politics and doing the standard thing when an enclave (large or small) decides to leave the nation and declare its independence. They're saying "You can't go, and we will happily kill you by the thousands to prevent you from doing so."

That's what the Serbs said to Kosovo, isn't it? That's what a central government usually says to separatists.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 12:45 PM

McCain and the US media are using weasel wording to try to frame the issue in a way that will serve their agenda (oil). The status quo in South Ossetia is that it broke away successfully in 1992 and has been operating autonomously ever since. Georgia is the one that is trying to upset the status quo and force South Ossetia to be a part of Georgia again.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 12:38 PM

Thanks BB ... now, now what is Obama saying.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peace
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 12:34 PM

'"We must remind Russia's leaders that the benefits they enjoy from being part of the civilized world require their respect for the values, stability and peace of that world."'

Wouldn't hurt for him to sat that to Bush, also.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 12:30 PM

McCain calls for diplomatic effort with Russia

Monday, August 11, 2008 3:42:51 PM
By CHARLES BABINGTON

Republican presidential candidate John McCain on Monday called for a multi-pronged diplomatic effort to force Russia to withdraw from Georgia, saying Moscow's actions could have long-term implications for its relations with the rest of the world.

Speaking to reporters in Pennsylvania, McCain said Russia appears intent on toppling the Georgian government rather than simply restoring the status quo in the pro-Moscow province of South Ossetia, which Georgia is trying to keep from breaking away.

"NATO's North Atlantic Council should convene in emergency session to demand a ceasefire and begin discussions on both the deployment of an Other international peacekeeping force to South Ossetia and the implications for NATO's future relationship with Russia," McCain said. He also urged NATO to reconsider its decision to withhold a "membership action plan" for Georgia, saying it "might have been viewed as a green light by Russia for its attacks on Georgia."

McCain said Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice should go to Europe "to establish a common Euro-Atlantic position aimed at ending the war and supporting the independence of Georgia."

He said the United States "should coordinate with our partners in Germany, France and Britain, to seek an emergency meeting of the G-7 foreign ministers to discuss the current crisis."

"Our united purpose should be to persuade the Russian government to cease its attacks, withdraw its troops and enter into negotiations with Georgia," McCain said. "We must remind Russia's leaders that the benefits they enjoy from being part of the civilized world require their respect for the values, stability and peace of that world."

He declined to take questions from reporters.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: pdq
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 12:12 PM

"The USSR set the boundaries of both Georgia and Ukraine." ~ Teribus

Well, I wasn't sure until I read that post, but now I would say that Russia should go home and let Georgia make peace with its various ethnic groups. Russia wants to be able to threaten the very important oil pipe line and it is also unhappy at the prospect of Georgia joining NATO. Attacking a NATO member has more consequences. George W. Bush seems to be championing the move for membership. The only leader who is quoted as sayng "Russian troops must leave immediately" seems to be Dick Cheney while most others put a wet finger in the air.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,number 6
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 11:39 AM

Where do the 2 presidential candidates stand on this issue ??

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 10:05 AM

Self-determination eh? If that was in anyway desireable to the Russians why was there never a United Socialist Soviet Republic of Ossetia, or the other lump of Georgia that the "neutral" Russian peacekeepers have poured troops into?

The USSR set the boundaries of both Georgia and Ukraine. Interesting to see what those countries will look like once all the dust settles. It won't start WW3, but will definitely start "Cold War 2".

The oligarchs that "looted" Russia were the former "elite" of Russia, Putin knows them well, most of them served with him in the KGB.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: kendall
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 09:49 AM

I was going to mention Kosovo.
Bush was on CNN this morning complaining about the violence and saying he confronted Putin and Medvedev (sp) I'd hate to have his nerve in a tooth! This after he invaded Iraq on trumped up charges! Iraq is 4000 miles from us, Georgia is just across the border from Russia.
January can't come soon enough for me.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 08:21 AM

Paul has it absolutely right. Putin can easily cite Kosovo as a precedent. It appears fairly obvious that self-determination for South Ossetia would result in a similar status to that of North Ossetia--and now that is very likely to happen.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Paul Burke
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 08:12 AM

I'm surprised you've got this far in the discussion without mentioning Kosovo. Putin said at the time that the Kosovo independence referendum set a precedent. The obvious outcome is referenda in South Ossetia and Abkhazia, which would almost certainly lead to them becoming Russian- controlled republiclets.

I suspect Saakashvili thought the Americans and Europeans would come running to help him. I can't see any other reason why a country with 4 million people would attack the stated interests of a country with 140 million.

The outcome will probably be his replacement by a Russian- friendly government, which will prove useful to Putin by keeping its hand on the tap on the pipeline. Which could have been avoided if the West hadn't sold the Russians a duff version of the market economy back in 1991, if they hadn't lorded it over them when they were struggling, if they had gone in with a serious reconstruction plan instead of attempting to loot the place, if they had condemned the excesses of Georgian nationalists against the Russian minority, and if they weren't so addicted to oil.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 06:44 AM

You took the words right out of my mouth, Don. It has all the hallmarks. What's the betting that our politicians choose the most stupid course of action imaginable (as they did in Iraq)?

Still it will "all be over by Christmas" (which Christmas, though?). Eventually the newly resurgent Chinese army will be able to march in and salvage anything salvageable from the smouldering (radioactive?) ruins.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 05:38 AM

Anyone see the parallel here?

Sudetenland all over again in the East? Payback for the "Bay of Pigs" incident?

First step toward WW3?

Someone needs to put the lid on this PDQ, even if it does mean giving up their immediate goal. Is one new member in NATO worth the cost?

Don T

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 04:26 AM

It is complicated.

Russia is pushing for regime change in Georgia. Georgia is the only country that likes Shrub and he is trying to get them into NATO. It looks like a pissing contest between Bush and Putin to me with Georgia and South Ossetia as the urinals.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 01:45 AM

Georgian forces were deliberately targeting civilians...

So she gathered her three girls - Ina, 14, Lina, 12, and Marina, 11 - and called a relative to pick them up in his car. They spent the day in a nearby village, watching the fighting grow closer with friends and family. Finally, she said, Georgian tanks started firing into nearby houses.

Those huddled in the house climbed into two cars and started off along a road through a stretch of woods. As they passed through the forest, they came under fire.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/080810/world/south_ossetia_refugees

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 01:33 AM

Thousands of civilians have fled South Ossetia - many seeking shelter in the Russian province of North Ossetia.

"The Georgians burned all of our homes," said one elderly woman, as she sat on a bench under a tree with three other white-haired survivors of the fighting...

...Tskhinvali residents who survived the Georgian bombardment overnight Friday by hiding in basements and later fled the city estimated that hundreds of civilians had died.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/080810/world/georgia_south_ossetia

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 01:16 AM

Doesn't really matter if Russia is an interested party or not. The South Ossetians gained their independence from Georgia just as Georgia gained it's independence from Russia and the Soviet Union. What the South Ossetians do with Russia is nobody's business except for South Ossetians and the Russians.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 12:34 AM

Still trying to work out how Russia, as an interested party, was appointed the role of "neutral peacekeeper" in the province (that was always "Georgian" under the communists) that it seeks to absorb into Russia? Even to the extent of demonstrating that "neutrality" by handing out "Russian" Passports to the inhabitants. Strikes me as being a clear conflict of interest, but there again whoever could ever put forward the arguement that the UN ever knew what it was doing.

Bet the Ukrainians are feeling a tad nervous, as the spotlight will turn on them once Russia has taken what parts of Georgia it feels it requires to "feel safe". Maybe we will once again Europe will be informed that, "We have no further territorial ambitions".

Odds on increased applications for NATO membership anyone?

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 11:49 PM

crossposted

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 11:48 PM

Russia didn't attack Georgia. Georgia attacked a civilian population center in South Ossetia. Russia defended the civilians of South Ossetia from the Georgian military.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 11:45 PM

All great powers support independence movements when those independence movements are in line with their larger interests and objectives. They oppose similar independence movements when they are not in line with their larger interests and objectives.

This is true of Russia. It's true of the USA. Neither side is supporting who they are supporting out of altruism, they are doing it out of pragmatism.

For either of them to claim the moral high ground is ironic, to say the least. For the Georgians to claim the moral high ground is equally ironic, if not more so. They attacked South Ossetia first.

As for the Ossetians, I figure they have a right to decide whether or not they wish to be part of Georgia, and they seem to have decided some time ago that they don't want to be part of Georgia.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: Peace
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 11:38 PM

I hope.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: Peace
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 11:28 PM

Spetsnaz. It means 'Special Warfare Troops'. They are the equivalent of the Canadian "JTF2", American 'SEALS' or British 'SAS'. The attack on Georgia is disgusting. That's my opinion.


I point out that Canucks would decry that type of attack.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: Peace
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 11:12 PM

"While you folks are sniffing about how bad it is in the US, War is breaking out in Georgia."


This life is filled with language.

The time of what you call sniffing is just the time of reflection. When it is put on the line, it is scary.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 10:54 PM

Georgia, whose troops have been trained by American soldiers, began an offensive to regain control over South Ossetia overnight Friday, launching heavy rocket and artillery fire and air strikes that pounded the provincial capital, Tskhinvali.

In response, Russia, which has granted passports to most South Ossetians, launched overwhelming artillery shelling and air attacks on Georgian troops.

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/080810/world/georgia_south_ossetia


Georgia heavily bombs a civilian population center, killing a couple of thousand people, wounding many more, and rendering thousands of people homeless (after being trained by the US)... Russia responds by targeting Georgian troops, and the US calls Russia the bad guy in this scenario. Hardly surprising, I suppose. In fact, I'd say it's pretty typical.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 06:54 PM

Well, south Ossetia already had de facto independence from Georgia since it won a war with that country in 1992. It was Georgia that invaded south Ossetia, not Russia. Russia entered the region in response to Georgia's invasion of it, to defend it from the Georgians. The south Ossetians do not want to be a part of Georgia. But the west apparently wants south Ossetia to be a part of Georgia, and the US has trained Georgia's armed forces, no doubt so that it can use them as proxy fighters for the US' quest to own everybody's oil.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: bubblyrat
Date: 10 Aug 08 - 06:23 PM

Apparently, there are some gas, oil, or both,pipelines that pass through Georgia, to western Europe, that are the only ones NOT to pass through some Russian territory. As such, they would,naturally, be of incalculable strategic importance to Nato and the Western Allies, including our dear American ( I mean that sincerely ) friends.Under the circumstances, one can readily see how the Russians would gleefully seize on ANY excuse to invade Georgia in order to hold us all to oil & gas ransom.Rest assured, they will do ANYTHING to get control of those pipelines !! The "Cold War " starts again !! ( maybe even a hot one ) . If ever there was a time for STRONG American leadership, it is NOW !!

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 06:38 PM

Damned eastern europeans, always causing trouble!

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: GUEST,Sawzaw
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 06:30 PM

Vive Le Québec Libre

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: GUEST,Mike in DC
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 01:50 PM

You can find some background information here
.

Mike

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 01:17 PM

And before this becomes a debate about US oil interests, oil is not a factor here. The broad picture is that Georgia wants out of the Russian circle of influence. They turned to the USA for their protectors and are joining NATO. Russia can't stomach the idea of a NATO presence on it's southern border. That is a lot closer than Cuba is to the States!
Enter South Ossetia. I've outlined some of the history in a previous post, so suffice it to say that Georgia has been trying to take Southern Ossetia over for centuries. The Ossetians are very independent and don't really want to be Georgian. The situation is a bit similar to Eastern Turkey.
Russia sees Ossetia as not only a good foothold in the Caucasus, but also as an excuse to teach Goergia a lesson about what you get for joining NATO. South Ossetia and Abkhazia both need Russian support to remain independant.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 01:15 PM

I find it interesting that the US supported Georgia's breaking away from Russia (because we believe in freedom and independence, after all), but we don't support South Ossetia's desire to break away from Georgia. I guess some people are more deserving of freedom and independence than others.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georiga
From: GUEST,Volgadon
Date: 09 Aug 08 - 12:38 PM

The lack of interest does seem significant as well as disturbing.