BS: War in Georgia (2008)

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 06:51 AM

Ethnic Cleansing in South Ossetia:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/georgia/2646422/Russian-backed-militias-looted-and-burnt-Georgian-villages.html

Possibly CarolC will now post with regard to "Right of Return", or compensation, or demand that those responsible be brought to justice - somehow I rather doubt it.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Aug 08 - 03:54 AM

"....the US and Israel were training and conducting military exercises with the Georgian military, as well as arming them rather massively (in proportion to the size of the country)." - CarolC

A US Government source to substantiate that statement?

As far as I have seen reported US equipment and training was confined to a single battalion of the Georgian Army specifically charged with protection of the Baku-Tblisi-Ceyhan Pipeline.

Now that hardly seems to accord with the US and Israel arming them (Georgia) rather massively - hardly armed them at all it would seem.

One other indication into the great likelyhood that this whole thing was engineered by Russian in cahoots with the South Ossetian seperatists. As stated by BB:

"....they (The Russians) mobilized BEFORE the Georgian attack that you claim was the couse for their invasion."

South Ossetia's only source of income is derived from the collection of tolls for transit through a tunnel on the main road from the Russian border to Tblisi. In the days prior to intervention by the Russians that tunnel was packed with Russian armour and military vehicles - Russia was reacting to nothing, they knew something was going to happen because they and the South Ossetians were going to make damn sure they were going to provoke the Georgians.

From the South Ossetian point of view, you do not cut off your only source of income unless you know for certain that it is for a very short period and you know that the outcome of that temporary closure will be to your ultimate benefit.

From the Russian point of view, you have to have all your pieces in play to guarantee the outcome. Main access is via a road tunnel, the distances being talked about here are tiny, the Russians could not afford to run the risk that the Georgian Army reach the South Ossetian end of the tunnel before themselves, hence the Russian Forces involved (58th Army, I believe) could not be tucked up in their barracks and garrisons at the time Russia felt it had to react, they had to be in place inside that tunnel safely out of sight until they were called on to intervene.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 06:36 PM

Russia had good reason to mobilize. Georgia was ratcheting up its attacks on South Ossetia and its violations of the previous cease fire, and the US and Israel were training and conducting military exercises with the Georgian military, as well as arming them rather massively (in proportion to the size of the country).

However, the Russians have not said that they moved into South Ossetia because the US was doing all of this in order to help the Republicans get their candidate elected. They have said they did it because of Georgia's attack on and invasion of South Ossetia.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 06:29 PM

"Since they mobilized BEFORE the Georgian attack that you claim was the couse for their invasion."


                   If seems to me like it's a really big undertaking to mobilize an army. If they thought they might need to confront the Georgians, they would probably mobilize, and then call it off if it wasn't necessary.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Ed T
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 05:40 PM

Did the West miscauculate by trusting Putin?

http://www.thechronicleherald.ca/World/1075763.html

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 01:51 PM

Better tell the Russians that.


Since they mobilized BEFORE the Georgian attack that you claim was the couse for their invasion.


You seem to think that you can present only one side, and deny that the other side exists. IF you look at both sides, you MIGHT be able to arrive at the truth. If you look at only one side, you will never find out what the truth is.

Both your and T's timelines are proabley valid- but you have to accept his if you want to have yours accepted- or show FACTUAL evidence that his is in error- at which point T can show FACTUAL evidence that yours is also in error.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 01:46 PM

Comparing WMD in Iraq to whether or not the US engineered the recent war in Georgia in order to help get a Republican candidate elected is a straw man argument.

Nobody is suggesting that Russia did what it did because it believed that the US was helping Georgia attack South Ossetia in order to get the Republican candidate elected.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 01:44 PM

I did not DISCARD either- but I deny that yours is "more complete" as you claim.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 01:42 PM

On the subject of supporting documentation for my timeline as opposed to the other one - precisely. Nobody has offered any supporting documentation. If we discard mine for lack of supporting documentation, we will also need to discard the other one for the same reason.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 01:42 PM

No, most of the missing material is just that- missing and un-accounted for. So I can still speculate.

If I was russia, and chose to ACT on that speculation, can I depend on your support?

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 01:40 PM

I believe that one has been proven false.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 01:08 PM

from CarolC: "Until someone provides any evidence that the Scheunemann scenario is false, it remain in the realm of possibility, and is therefore fair game for speculation."


ok. and until it is proven false, it remains in the realm of possibility that Iraq had WMD- right?

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 12:44 PM

last one ... I promise ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 12:42 PM

Here's another (I tried getting them onto one post but it didn't work)

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 12:40 PM

more scheunemann

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 12:38 PM

scheunemann

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 12:28 PM

CarolC,

YOU state: "
From: CarolC - PM
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 12:03 AM

Here's a more complete timeline than the one in the above post..."



1. you have presented the same level of supporting evidence for your "facts" as T has. ie, NONE.

2. Since you each list numerous "facts" that are not listed by the other, you cannot claim that it is more complete. T does not make that claim- so it is up to YOU to prove your assertion.



The TWO post TOGETHER might actually provide an accurate picture of what happened, but yours alone is certainly NOT a complete report of even what the RUSSIANS are claiming.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 12:23 PM

If it's only an opinion, I won't try to argue with it. Everyone is entitled to his or her opinion. When someone prefaces an opinion with the words, "of course", it looks like the person is stating something they regard as fact, and not as opinion.

There is, of course, more than ample evidence that the US and Georgia had planned this whole thing for a long time. And it dovetails perfectly with the geostrategic goals the US has in the region. The Russians are perfectly justified in thinking that the US is working to undermine Russia's national security.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:59 AM

"This whole thing has been engineered by Russia and they have to shown that they will not be allowed to get away with it." - My opinion CarolC which I am perfectly entitled to thank you very much.

That someone campaigning to become the President and Head of State of a Nation should promise to resolve internal conflicts within the country he hopes to lead is both perfectly reasonable and understandable.

By the bye what about "right of return" to those Georgian refugees who have had to flee from both "South Ossetia" and "Abkhazia" - Population of the latter plummeted from 525,061 in 1989 to just 215,972 in 2003 damn near 200,000 Georgians fled the area, ever heard of ethnic cleansing?

Of course the whole bloody situation was engineered by the Russians, you'd have to something slightly more than bone-thick to believe anything otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:50 AM

It wasn't engineered by the Russians. Saakashvili has said all along that he was going to do precisely what he just did. He campaigned on that promise. We've been over all of that already in this thread. Some people need to learn to read threads before posting.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:46 AM

Until someone provides any evidence that the Scheunemann scenario is false, it remain in the realm of possibility, and is therefore fair game for speculation. The only person who has advanced an actual argument on this subject is the one who is dismissing this scenario out of hand. Since arguments require facts to support them and speculations and opinions don't, the person who is making the argument that the Scheunemann scenario is false is the only one required to provide any evidence.

So far this person has not provided any evidence whatever. So we may dismiss that person's argument as having no basis in fact.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:45 AM

Interesting Article BBC:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7586662.stm

Excerpt 1:
"The Russians' strongest argument in defence of its armed intervention is that blame for the outbreak of a shooting war is shared.

Most observers agree it is, and that Georgia's President Mikheil Saakashvili acted rashly or wrongly in ordering his army to bombard and take the South Ossetian capital Tskhinvali.

He was wrong, too, to speak of Russia "exterminating" his nation.

But in many other ways, Russia's defence of its armed intervention has been found wanting or false.

Russia's official charges of "genocide" by Georgian forces against the South Ossetians were quickly discredited by Human Rights Watch.

Broken promises

Moscow's South Ossetian allies still claim that nearly 1,700 people died in the Georgian assault but evidence has yet to be produced."

Excerpt 2:
"Mr Medvedev argued that Russia had been forced to use force to protect its own nationals in South Ossetia.

But Russia has deliberately engineered that situation by handing out Russian passports to large numbers of local inhabitants."

Excerpt 3:
"Finally, Russia's claim that its motive in Georgia was purely humanitarian was exploded by this week's decision to recognise the independence of the two breakaway regions."

Now how long ago was it that Russia stated that it would withdraw it's troops from Georgian territory? Have they done it yet? Does anybody seriously think that they are ever going to?

This whole thing has been engineered by Russia and they have to shown that they will not be allowed to get away with it.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Ron Davies
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 11:33 AM

...."unhealthy desire to control others". Gee, that's an interesting interpretation of a request for evidence to back up an off-the-wall theory. As I said, somebody is rather supersensitive about a request for facts-- which is not in fact an ad hominem attack. She might want to do some research on that term.

No, I'm not about to try to control what others post--somehow I think it might not be successful anyway--except in the lively imaginations of certain Mudcatters.   Though a bit more concern for sense and logic would be a welcome change.

And I'm still waiting for just an iota of evidence supporting the Scheunemann theory so many people seem to think is wonderful.   Or just possibly an admission that the theory in fact has absolutely no evidence to back it up.

As I said, I'm no fan of McCain. But I am a fan of facts and logic.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Riginslinger
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 10:27 AM

Okay! How does any of that involve American civilians trying to stir things up?

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Aug 08 - 12:03 AM

Here's a more complete timeline than the one in the above post...

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC - PM
Date: 18 Aug 08 - 05:52 PM

On March 31, 2008 a South Ossetian police post near the village of Okona in the Znaur District was attacked by a group armed with guns and grenade launchers. Military observers from the Joint Peacekeeping Force and the OSCE mission established that the shots were fired from an area controlled by Georgia. Two days before the shooting, Georgian police task force and security officers dressed as civilians had been seen in the vicinity.

On April 2 another armed group fired automatic weapons at a South Ossetian Defense Ministry checkpoint near the village of Andzi-si. The servicemen at the checkpoint did not return fire.

A total of 56 incidents of ceasefire violation by Georgian forces were registered by the Joint Peacekeeping Force in April 2008. Most of them involved random shooting with the purpose of fueling tension in the region.

On May 14 President of South Ossetia Eduard Kokoity said the Georgian special services were planning a terrorist attack in the territory of the self-proclaimed republic against Georgians and Georgian peacekeepers.

On May 15 Captain Vladimir Ivanov, an aide to the Joint Peacekeeping Force commander for contacts with the media, announced a planned rotation of the peacekeeping contingent in South Ossetia. Georgian media then spread information about an alleged expansion of the Russian peacekeeping contingent in the conflict zone, quoting Georgia's foreign minister. A routine rotation was described as a "provocation" and a "reckless enterprise."

On July 3 as Dmitry Sanakoyev, head of the 'alternative' Georgian-backed government of South Ossetia, was driving across the republic to Batumi to attend an international conference, his car was struck by a mine and fired at from the direction of local villages. Sanakoyev's bodyguards returned fire. The shooting went on for several minutes. Three of the guards were severely injured. Sanakoyev himself was unscathed. South Ossetian Interior Minister Mikhail Mindzayev said that the attack on Sanakoyev was orchestrated by Georgia to provide a pretext for invading the self-proclaimed republic.

On July 7 the police in Russia's Southern Federal District detained four military men from the Georgian Defense Ministry in the village of Okon, South Ossetia's Znaur District. Officials of the breakaway region of South Ossetia claimed the detained men were pursuing intelligence activities in the Tskhinvali region. Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili considered the detainment a hostage situation. On July 8, the detainees were released.

On July 9, Russia's Foreign Ministry issued a statement concerning the aggravated situation in the Georgian-Abkhazian and Georgian-Ossetian conflict zones, which said that "For the past several days, the situation in the Georgian-Abkhazian and Georgian-South Ossetian conflict zones has intensified. The city of Tskhinvali has been shelled by the Georgian army, with victims registered among civilians. Fighters and unmanned aircraft of the Georgian Air Force have repeatedly violated the conflict territorial air zones. In a terrorist attack, a South Ossetian police officer was killed. Georgian military set up a post at a strategic site near the village of Sarabuki. Additional military equipment was moved from Georgia into the conflict zone without any coordination with the Joint Peacekeeping Forces, which was registered by military observers including by the OSCE mission in Georgia. These actions point to an open and planned aggression against South Ossetia, which is the internationally recognized side in settling the conflict."

On August 1 and 2, the tension in the Georgian-South Ossetian conflict zone was aggravated due to a massive shelling of Tskhinvali's residential districts, which led to numerous deaths among civilians, with six South Ossetians killed and 15 wounded. Georgia claimed this was a response to South Ossetia's gunfire on Georgia's territory. South Ossetia began evacuating the region's residents to North Ossetia, with 2,500 people leaving their homes during the two days after the shelling.

On August 6, South Ossetian President Eduard Kokoity said he would take "the toughest measures" toward "militants firing at the villages." Previously, the breakaway region's Defense Ministry reported that the Georgian side started sniper fire at the South Ossetian villages of Mugut and Didmukha in the Znaur District at around 12:00 p.m. According to South Ossetian sources, the Georgian special forces attempted to occupy Nul Height to gain control over the Znaur road and the South Ossetian villages located along the road. In the afternoon, it was reported that an aggressive battle was taking place at the village of Nul.

Irina Gagloyeva, head of South Ossetia's Committee for Information and the Press, told RIA Novosti that South Ossetian units had forced the Georgian military units out of Nul Height.

Georgia's Interior Ministry, however, denied the reports.

According to the South Ossetian Interior Ministry, on August 7 Georgia started ground fire and shelling of the South Ossetian capital Tskhinvali from the village of Nikozi. Then, according to Tskhinvali, the shelling and shooting at the South Ossetian village of Khetagurovo was started from the Georgian village of Avnevi. About 10 people were killed and another 50 received various wounds. The Georgian media, however, reported that the South Ossetian side had been shelling the Georgian villages of Avnevi and Nuli for three hours. According to the information of the Joint Peacekeeping Forces in the conflict zone, it was the Georgian side that started firing first. Also, there were reports that Russian peacekeepers were fired on.

On August 8 Georgia started military operations in the Georgian-Ossetian conflict zone.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 09:37 PM

"He is saying in unambiguous terms that there seems to be some kind of link in his view between this crisis and McCains attempts to get himself elected."

                   Call it unambiguous, but I didn't hear McCain's name mentioned, only that it involved the course of the American election. That could mean a number of things, like Obama having to take a more militant position in the election.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 09:24 PM

The US withdrew from the ABM treaty and since that time has been doing other things that Russia quite correctly perceives as a threat to it's national security. I think any questions about Russia's motives need to be viewed in light of these facts.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 09:23 PM

I'd like to see some documentation for that timeline. I can't find it anywhere.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Lox
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 09:11 PM

Well putin needs to give us evidence now.

His reputation and the credibility of the pro Russian perspective seems to ride on it.

Russias timing has been at least opportune. The attack on Georgia during the olympic opening ceremony ...

... and then this ... an attack on McCain on the night when Obama triumphantly takes his place as the Democratic candidate.

And how does it affect the election?

Does it make people question McCain?

Or does it make Obama look like he's got Putin in his camp?

Who looks sleazier?

Is it all just a big taunt?

Evidence please Vladimir.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 08:51 PM

Well folks can we all stand back and take a good look at how things unfolded. Here is the time line:

August, 01

* 08:00 A van carrying six Georgian policemen was blown up by Osettian separatists near Eredvi-Kheti north from Tshinvali on the by-pass road connecting mainland Georgia with Didi-Liahvi valley populated by Georgians. Five out of six policemen were severely wounded. The government of Georgia decided not to hunt the culprits in order not to escalate the situation.

August, 02

*Six civilians and a policemen were wounded by light arms fire from the territory of South Osettia controlled by Russian peacekeepers. This shooting followed the night artillery shelling of Georgian villages inside South Osettia.

*Later that day the Georgian villages Zemo Nikozi, Kvemo NikoziNuli, Avneri, Eredvi and Ergneti got under heavy mortar fire from the Osettian separatists. At first Georgian policemen were shooting back, but then held fire after the order from Tbilisi aimed not to escalate the situation.

August, 03
*In all the Russian media the massive anti-Georgian propaganda has been launched.

*12:00 The separatist government of South Osettia announced evacuation of more than 500 residents including 400 children.

*13:00 The separatist government appealed to volunteers across the whole Russian North Caucasus to mobilize.

August, 04-05

*During two days the Georgian villages were under constant fire from the separatist territories controlled by Russians.

August, 06
*16:00 The separatists rejected the Georgian offer of negotiations and refused to meet with the Georgian special secretary T. Yakobashvili who arrived in Tshinvali for finding a solution for the conflict.

* Later on the Georgian main national TV channel Mr. Yakobashvili announced that the Georgian government was seeking direct negotiations with the separatist authorities in order to tackle the violence in the region and avoid the escalation of the conflict. The separatists refused to negotiate again.

*20:00 The separatists started mortar fire on Georgian villages Eredvi, Prizi, Amneri, Dvani and Nuli. Trying to defend lives of civilians, Georgians returned fire. As the result of whole night heavy cross fire, two soldiers from the Georgian battalion of Joint Peacekeeping Forces were wounded. The separatists reported of their wounded too.

*Despite provocative attacks on civilians, policemen and Georgian peacekeepers, the Georgian government decided not to use heavy artillery in order to avoid casualties among civilians.

August, 07

*09:00 In his interview to Russian media agencies, the leader of separatists E. Kokoity vowed that all the Georgian soldiers who do not leave the territory of the South Osettia would be "cleansed out". The mentioned soldiers were the Georgian peacekeepers legally deployed in South Osettia alongside Russian peacekeepers.

*09:45. A Russian jet bombed the Georgian radar near village Shavshvebi, about 30 km (20 miles) from South Osettia inside proper Georgia.

*15:00. The separatists again refused to negotiate with the Georgian special secretary T. Yakobashvili, who again arrived in Tshinvali for negotiations. .

*16:00. The separatists resumed shelling of Georgian villages Nuli and Avneri.
* Three Georgian soldiers wounded after separatist attack on their armoured carrier, two of the attackers killed and two severely wounded.

* Later the Georgian checkpoint at Avneri was bombed causing several servicemen and civilians dead.

*18:30. Trying to lessen the tension

Now August 7th was when Georgia was supposed to have unleashed this terrible (unprovoked) assault on the completely innocent population of South Ossetia. Everybody please note that at this stage nothing, absolutely nothing had happened with regard to Abkhazia.

Now let's see exactly what unfolded, remembering of course that both South Ossetia and Abkhazia were integral parts of Georgia as ceeded by the former Soviet Union as being parts of the independent state of Georgia. Hey folks please note none of these folks ever bothered disputing their "claim" to independence while the good ol' communists were in charge of things - any explanations for that Ake? I mean life must have been so great under the red flag and the inspiring message of universal communist brotherhood - off course they did not dispute their claim to independence then mainly due to the fact that if they had they would have been massacred in toto. Doubt that people and "fellow travellers" - then tell me me exactly why there is not an independent Chechnya, Dagetstan and Moldova - Tell you why apologists for totally unjustified, naked aggression - that would actually harm the modern day "Soviet" Russia.

Simple statement to who ever wins the next Presidential Election in the United States of America - Put Putin in his place or else you internationally are going to be toast.

PS Yanks being top dog is not a popularity contest.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Lox
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 08:05 PM

I forgot to add ...

... and what evidence is he talking about?

We in the west, especially American voters, need to see it.

Such claims require the production of evidence.

He's made the claim now so there's no turning back or holding back left.

... I'll be keeping my eyes open ...



here's the BBC link.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 08:05 PM

He says this to warn and intimidate that his mafia like control of the movement of Oil is critical to him.

He is sabre rattling to prevent any intervention to Russias OIL TRADE route to Europe.

70,000 barrels flow through Georgia until the only railroad bridge blew up mysteriously and the pipeline terminal that statrs in Turkey and goes through Georgia also exploded.

Russia can hold Europe energy hostage with control of every path that oil and gas take to get there.

He threatens to mobilize troops to Poland if the US unilaterally keeps sending missles to within 90 miles of Russia.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Lox
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 07:59 PM

Well, be he innocent or insolent, Putin is claiming that he has evidence that American personnel were involved in the Georgian attack on South Ossetia.

He is saying in unambiguous terms that there seems to be some kind of link in his view between this crisis and McCains attempts to get himself elected.

Why the implicit interest in th US election?

Is Obama a commie? (... don't bite ... okay ...)

Which government will be first to collapse under the pressure?

Sakashvilli?

Putin (medvedev)?

or McCain Bush and Son?

What does Putin gain by making this accusation?

And if Obama wins - does that mean Putin works with a US government he trusts?

Why is putin saying what he is saying?

If it's just about power, expansion and anti american posturing, then why the apparent endorsement of Obama?

My mind boggles trying to understand where Putin is coming from.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Riginslinger
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 07:49 PM

Putin is now saying that the Bush administration provoked the war in order to benefit McCain in the election.

             If that's true--and that's a really big if--then the Bush administration is responsible for Obama choosing Biden.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 05:30 PM

Most of world population does NOT support Russia in Georgia:



Asian alliance rebuffs Russian plea for support

By OLGA TUTUBALINA and PETER LEONARD, Associated Press Writers
Thu Aug 28, 2:26 PM ET



DUSHANBE, Tajikistan - China and several Central Asian nations rebuffed Russia's hopes of international support for its actions in Georgia, issuing a statement Thursday denouncing the use of force and calling for the respect of every country's territorial integrity.

A joint declaration from the six-member Shanghai Cooperation Organization also offered some support for Russia's "active role in promoting peace" following a cease-fire, but overall it appeared to increase Moscow's international isolation.

Russia's search for support in Asia had raised fears that the alliance would turn the furor over Georgia into a broader confrontation between East and West, pitting the U.S. and Europe against their two main Cold War foes.

Russian President Dmitry Medvedev had appealed to the Asian alliance, which is made up of China, Russia and four ex-Soviet Central Asian nations, for unanimous support of Moscow's response to Georgia's "aggression."

But the alliance, which was created in 2001 to improve regional coordination on terrorism and border security, opted to take a neutral position and urged all sides to resolve the conflict through "peaceful dialogue."

"The participants ... underscore the need for respect of the historical and cultural traditions of each country and each people, and for efforts aimed at preserving the unity of the state and its territorial integrity," the alliance's statement said.

None of the other alliance members joined Russia in recognizing the independence claims of Abkhazia and South Ossetia.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Sawzaw
Date: 28 Aug 08 - 04:31 PM

Not to worry, O'bama is going to fix it according to Amos.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 05:35 PM

He is wasting your time, Jack. But I don't think it's deliberate. He just can't help himself. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Riginslinger
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 12:16 AM

"And, as noted earlier, opinion and speculation--with the caveat that no evidence is required--mean that anybody trying to actually learn something about the topic is wasting time."


                      No edivence!

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 27 Aug 08 - 12:03 AM

Ron Davis seems to be playing his own version of the Monty Python argument sketch. Or is it the cheese shop?

I keep expecting him to say him to say he's been deliberately wasting our time. :-D

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 11:50 PM

And by the way, I notice the person who has been calling the speculation about the article I posted "conspiracy theory" hasn't offered even one shred of evidence that the article isn't true.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 11:45 PM

I reiterate:

Please show me where I ever said I "never" make an argument for or against anything. Or even that I'm against requiring evidence for my arguments. Or perhaps it won't be possible to do that since the accusation that I said that was a complete fabrication in the first place.


It astonishes me that I would need to explain this to a fully grown adult, and an educated one, no less...


spec·u·late --

a: to meditate on or ponder a subject : reflect b: to review something idly or casually and often inconclusively


opin·ion --

1 a: a view, judgment, or appraisal formed in the mind about a particular matter b: approval, esteem2 a: belief stronger than impression and less strong than positive knowledge b: a generally held view


ar·gu·ment --

a: a reason given in proof or rebuttal b: discourse intended to persuade

http://www.merriam-webster.com/


Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC - PM
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 01:34 PM

Evidence is only needed when one is saying that something is fact, or making an argument for or against something. Opinion and speculation do not need evidence. If someone feels that he or she has a right to dictate how other people discuss their opinions and speculations, that person has an unhealthy need to control others.


As we can see, I said that evidence is not needed for opinion and speculation. This is because one of the reasons people are speculating and stating opinions on the subject in question (instead of making arguments about it one way or another) is because there aren't enough facts available to make an argument. If there was enough evidence for to make an argument, people would be making an argument instead of speculating and/or offering opinions.

In my case, however, I didn't do any of these three. All I did was post an article that I found interesting, which is another thing altogether.

However, any observant person who has taken any time at all to read any of my posting history knows that I have no problem with making arguments when I feel I have enough facts available to me to do so, and that I do so regularly.

So I would suggest spending some time learning the difference between speculation, opinion, and argument, and then learning how to discern when people are doing one or the other of these things (or none of them).

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 09:59 PM

"He doesn't use evidence". Examples please. Or is this remark another great special straight off the shelves of Smears R Us?

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Ron Davies
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 09:56 PM

"Opinion and speculation do not need evidence". No problem. As long as all parties realize that the Scheuneman theory as of now, is totally baseless---since no evidence has been provided. It's just somewhat amazing how many people seem eager to salute the article cited as a wonderful brilliant explanation--when, so far there are precisely zero facts to support it.

It is in fact a conspiracy theory--as is recognized even by the author--who even acknowledges the idea is "diabolical". To call it a conspiracy theory is only offensive to somebody so supersensitive as to read "ad hominem" into any criticism, even obviously justified.

And, as noted earlier, opinion and speculation--with the caveat that no evidence is required--mean that anybody trying to actually learn something about the topic is wasting time.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 05:13 PM

thank you for your various extensive history of Georgia that you took the time to post here.

You may rest assured now that Cindy McCain is being dispatched to Georgia in order to acess the situation of the survivors and casualties.
Dick Cheney is soon to follow.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 03:50 PM

'KHETAGUROVO, South Ossetia (Reuters) - Georgian troops arrived Khetagurovo on August 8 in a storm of steel and bullets, killing eight people and badly damaging the village of ethnic South Ossetians.

When they left two days later, harried by the Russian forces that crushed Tbilisi's bid to restore control over its breakaway region, locals say their took four prisoners with them and forfeited any chance of reconciliation.

Passions were still running high when Thomas Hammarberg, a European human rights official, arrived in the village on Sunday to witness the release of two Georgian tank crew as a goodwill gesture by the Ossetian authorities.

"Why are you releasing these bloody Georgians if they don't release my husband who is held hostage there?," village book keeper Rita Bestayeva shouted at Hammarberg, the Council of Europe's Human Rights Commissioner.

Russian soldiers held angry villagers at bay as the two Georgian servicemen -- captured when Russian troops retook the village -- were whisked away in a car in the direction of Georgia, a gesture Hammarberg said he would use his influence to push Tbilisi to reciprocate.

"I know that it is very difficult for people in this village to accept that those two prisoners have been released," he told reporters during a break in the visit, which was closely chaperoned by the Russian military.

"I respect their reactions but I am convinced that this is a way to secure that those people missing from this village come back as soon as possible," he said.

What remains of Khetagurovo, set in the hills of South Ossetia amid orchards and vineyards, bears the marks of war and the buildings still standing are pockmarked with shrapnel and bullets.

The conflict has left a lasting legacy in the minds of those like pensioner Yuza Khasiyeva, who saw one neighbor lying in his courtyard killed by a shrapnel head wound and another elderly resident lying dead.

The village is surrounded by a ring of ethnic Georgian villages inside South Ossetia, but asked if the two communities could live together after the latest conflict, she snorted:

"Are you mad? It's better to die than live with them."

"My grandparents told me that in the 1920s they were already killing us, so what we see now is already a third wave of their terror against the Ossetians."

Ossetians say they were a target of ethnic cleansing in the years of Georgia's short-lived independence after the collapse of the Russian empire in 1917. They backed Russia's Bolshevik rulers when they moved to retake Georgia in the early 1920s.

The region broke from central Georgian control in the early 1990s with the breakup of the Soviet Union, and book-keeper Bestayeva agreed reunification was now out of the question.

"There can't even be any talk of it. This is the third wave of genocide. Enough is enough."

Hammarberg's convoy drove through destroyed ethnic Georgian villages but did not stop in the largely deserted settlements.

"What I can see here now is the result of the madness of war," Hammarberg told reporters after surveying the damage to the South Ossetian capital of Tskhinvali earlier.

"What happened here, a couple of weeks ago, shall never be repeated because this is an insult to people's human rights," he said after being shown around the so-called Jewish Quarter, a section of the town damaged by Georgian shelling.

In Khetagurovo, housewife Ofelia Dzhanyeva said she had lost her brother during the war in the early 1990s when South Ossetia threw off Georgian control, and after the latest conflict nothing would induce Ossetians to accept Tbilisi's rule.

"None of the Ossetians is even thinking of reconciliation with Georgia now," she said. "In 1991 our children turned into refugees. Now they have grown up to defend their homeland."'

http://www.reuters.com/article/GCA-Georgia/idUSLO45165720080824?pageNumber=1&virtualBrandChannel=0



'Congratulations to Timothy Giannuzzi. He has provided the most even-handed and insightful commentary on the Georgian crisis I have read so far. President Mikheil Saakashvili of Georgia was indeed "monumentally foolish" in invading South Ossetia. The media and western governments have avoided trying to justify Saakashvili's action.

At the heart of the matter is Russia's fear of being isolated by NATO. As NATO grows in strength, so does Russian paranoia. Russia is understandably upset at Poland agreeing to host part of a U.S. missile defence system. Let's be fair. How would the U.S. react if Cuba agreed to host a Russian missile defence system?

In 1943, I was one year old when my parents fled from the Soviet invasion of Estonia, so I am particularly sensitive to maintaining peace along the Russian periphery. Sabre-rattling is not the answer. Russia has been invaded many times and has always shown extraordinary determination and courage when tested to the limit. If you want to convert this generally amiable "bear" into a fierce beast, corner it and make it feel threatened. The better approach would be to treat the Russians with the respect they are due, seek compromise and try to understand why history has made them what they are.'

http://www.canada.com/calgaryherald/news/letters/story.html?id=95de5b1a-8663-4c93-8068-c82f8a3ec2cf

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: beardedbruce
Date: 26 Aug 08 - 01:27 PM

Washington Post:

Next Steps on Georgia

As Russia violates the cease-fire it signed, there's plenty the United States can do in response.

Tuesday, August 26, 2008; Page A12

ASTREAK of defeatist thinking about Russia's continuing occupation of Georgia has had it that there is little the West can do about the crisis, first because Moscow's cooperation is needed for more important matters, such as the containment of Iran, and second because the United States and Europe lack practical means of leverage over Vladimir Putin's regime. Several days ago we addressed the first part of this canard, pointing out that the "strategic partnership" that President Bush once sought to build with Mr. Putin has been little more than an illusion. Now, with Russian troops still dug in around the Georgian port of Poti in blatant violation of a cease-fire agreement, it's becoming urgent to reexamine that second assumption about Western impotence. Fortunately, it, too, is groundless: There is, in fact, much that could be done to raise the cost of the ongoing occupation and to weaken Mr. Putin and the sinister circle around him.

The reason Russian troops are still blockading Georgia's largest port, planting mines along its railroads and stopping traffic on main road arteries is that Russia has yet to accomplish its central objectives: to depose Georgia's president and destroy Georgia's fragile democracy. The United States and its allies can still prevent that from happening, if they act quickly and energetically -- and thereby inflict an endgame defeat on Mr. Putin. Mr. Bush's order that U.S. ships and planes deliver humanitarian aid to Georgia was a good first step. But what's needed now is a large and conspicuous supply and reconstruction operation that will ensure that the Russian occupation cannot cause a collapse of the Georgian economy. Promised international observers -- which Moscow agreed to -- must meanwhile be deployed as quickly as possible, to keep Russian forces from staging provocations that might lead to further fighting.


The Russian economy, dependent on Western investment and technology, has already suffered a sharp reversal thanks to the invasion: Foreign currency reserves plummeted this month as investors withdrew money from the country at the fastest rate since the 1998 ruble crisis. Steeped in nostalgia for the ways of the Soviet Union, Mr. Putin may be insensitive to Russia's vulnerability to the pressures the U.S. Treasury can apply in 21st-century capital markets. But the corrupt circle of oligarchs around him, who have deposited billions in Western banks and bought up mansions and soccer teams, could quickly and legitimately be squeezed. There is certainly no reason why U.S. and international agencies should not vigorously pursue the numerous allegations of corrupt practices by Russian firms. If Kremlin-connected companies violate Georgian or international law through their actions in the occupied provinces of South Ossetia and Abkhazia, their assets -- gas stations in the United States, for example -- could be subject to seizure.

The Bush administration, we're told, is planning to withdraw a nuclear cooperation agreement with Russia from Congress. It retains the options of abrogating the bilateral U.S.-Russian agreement needed for Moscow's membership in the World Trade Organization and suspending negotiations on arms control. If Mr. Putin does not comply with the cease-fire agreement in the coming days, such bilateral sanctions will be needed. In the meantime, the administration should be working hard to ensure that Georgia's government and economy emerge stronger from the crisis -- and that Russia realizes it will only be weakened by its continuing occupation of a neighboring nation.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 11:48 PM

Like I said... it's easy to create straw men and then attempt to knock them down. It's easy to put words in other peoples' mouths and make up stories about what they have said. It's not in the least bit honest to do that, but it's a lot easier than making any kind of legitimate argument.

Please show me where I ever said I "never" make and argument for or against anything. Or even that I'm against requiring evidence for my arguments. When that task is completed, I will answer the rest of it.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 11:35 PM

He doesn't use evidence!

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Ron Davies
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 10:26 PM

Evidence of that statement, please, Rig. Otherwise your statement also becomes a waste of time to read.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Riginslinger
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 09:49 PM

Politicians rarely use evidence, look at Barack Obama!