BS: War in Georgia (2008)

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Ron Davies
Date: 25 Aug 08 - 09:42 PM

"It takes effort to make a rational argument".   Bingo.

And I'd be curious to know how somebody who is against requiring evidence plans to make a rational argument. It must demand a lot of creativity and imagination, and must be a very useful skill--especially for a politician, for instance.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 05:53 PM

Talk about not having a good relationship with reality.

Both South Ossetia and Abkhazia have a history that precedes Stalin by many centuries.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: robomatic
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 05:03 PM

Putin in the Shadow of the Red Czar
By SIMON SEBAG MONTEFIORE
London

AT the center of Gori, Georgia, where every window has been shattered and Russian T-72 tanks patrol, the marble statue of the world's most famous Georgian — Josef Stalin — stands gleamingly, almost supernaturally unharmed.

As this vicious colonial war turns into an international battle over spheres of influence, Stalin is Banquo at the feast, metaphorically present in the palaces of the Kremlin, the burning houses in the villages, the cabinets of Europe's eastern capitals.

Today, as far as Moscow is concerned, the Georgian cobbler's son and Marxist fanatic has been laundered of any traces of Georgia and Marx. He is now a Russian czar, the inspiration for the authoritarian, nationalistc and imperial strains in today's capitalistic, pragmatic, swaggering Russia. In this crisis, and in who knows how many future ones, Stalin represents empire, prestige, victory.

When Vladimir Putin presented Russian teachers with their new textbook last year, Stalin appeared as "the most successful Russian ruler of the 20th century" — Peter the Great-meets-Bismarck. Stalin, the book gushes, expanded the empire further than any Romanov and created a Russian nuclear superpower. And his killings were a tool of necessary, if excessive, discipline. Recall that when America's World War II envoy to Moscow, Averell Harriman, congratulated him on the Red Army's taking of Berlin, Stalin fired back: "Yes, but Alexander I made it to Paris." Stalin liked to sit over dinner in one of his Abkhazian villas on the Black Sea, poring over maps: "Yes, we haven't done badly."

This was quite some leap for the Iosif Dzhugashvili, born in Gori in 1878. It is hard to describe how foreign Georgia is to Russia. It has its own history as an ancient kingdom under a thousand-year dynasty, its own literature and language as different from Russian as Cantonese is from English.

During one of their earliest rows, Mr. Putin — now the prime minister, but clearly a paramount leader — supposedly told President Mikheil Saakashvili of Georgia, "Thanks for giving us Stalin." In other words, in today's strange re-creation of Stalin, the imperial, victorious bits are Russian; the nasty bits must be Georgian. (Oddly, both men, who despise each other, have personal links to the Soviet dictator: Mr. Putin's grandfather was his chef; Mr. Saakashvili's aristocratic grandparents hid young Stalin from the czarist secret police.)

However valid some Russian grievances over Georgia may be (and some truly are), however flawed our Western record may be (and it is flawed) and however imperfect Georgian policies were (and they were impulsive), the fact is that Russia wants to dismantle Georgia, a democratic state that is worth saving for itself but also because it is the first domino of the Near Abroad.

History offers no neat repetitions, but Russia's power gambit in the Caucasus and challenge to the post-1991 order would be entirely familiar to Stalin. After World War II, Stalin seemed at the height of his prestige after years of revolution, terror and war — just as today Mr. Putin's Russia seems muscular and resurgent after the humiliations of the 1990s. Stalin had Eastern Europe; Mr. Putin has an imperium of oil and gas. And they share the same confident swagger combined with a feeling of seething resentment toward Western hypocritical sanctimony.

It isn't just a question of spheres of influence; it's about domination. Stalin remarked that his armies would impose his political system on Eastern Europe. Likewise, Moscow's Georgian invasion aims to remove American-style democracy, replacing it with Russia's strain of managed authoritarian politics. The Kremlin, then and now, is basically against anything that we are for.

If we are returning to cold war, the Berlin Crisis is the most useful precedent. Stalin tested the West in Berlin 1948 much as Mr. Putin is doing in Georgia today. Once again, in Georgia the daunting challenge for America is to maintain and restore a fragile entity, to defend a line, without going to war. Beleaguered Georgia will need American resolve, ingenuity and daring equal to that of the Berlin Airlift if it is to be restored.

In the Caucasus, Stalin literally wrote the book on imperial-colonial control: his "Marxism and the National Problem," commissioned by Lenin in 1912. In it, Lenin and his Georgian henchman offered ersatz rights of independence to the minority peoples of the czarist empire — which they would, of course, never be permitted to exercise. The Soviet Union was designed for Muscovite rule, not for division into independent republics. Yet the latter is exactly what happened in 1991 — and the Kremlin has never accepted it.

"Daddy used to be a Georgian," Stalin's son, Vasily, once said. Actually, the dictator didn't truly become Russian; he remained Georgian culturally. Yet he embraced the imperial mission of the Russian people. He designed the Soviet Union using his knowledge of Caucasian ethnic feuds to create republics within republics, including Ossetia and Abkhazia, as Russia's Trojan horses, and they have outlived Stalin's great project.

I've spent a great deal of time in the Caucasus since 1991, having met with all three Georgian presidents, always analyzing the longstanding Russian game of undermining and controlling Georgia by Stalinist means. Russia's recent policy of encouraging rebel skirmishing in South Ossetia and offering Russian passports to its citizens was a classic trap. As colonial puppeteer and successful restorer of Russia as imperial superpower, Mr. Putin is Stalin's consummate heir.

Stalin was equally expert in annexations justified as protecting ethnic Russians — think eastern Poland, Bessarabia and the Baltics in 1939. Today's rhetoric of protecting Russian citizens is both genuine and Stalinist doublespeak: after all, some Ossetians have only been Russian citizens for a few weeks. Ukraine, on the other hand, really is half-Russian. Few in Kiev should be sleeping soundly.

While most know the young Stalin was a seminarian, few realize that he was also a Georgian patriot, a published romantic poet. (Curiously, his enemies deprecated him as Ossetian; in truth his father was of Ossetian descent but the family was long since Georgianized.) Yet he found it impossible to be both a Marxist internationalist and a Georgian nationalist. In 1904, he was accused of heresy by top Bolsheviks and made to humiliatingly renounce Georgian nationalism. Driven out of Georgia for leading bloody bank robberies, he referred to it as a "parochial swamp." In 1921, he engineered the Red Army's invasion and annexation of the newly independent Georgia. His vengeance perhaps continues.

Georgians mourned Stalin at his death. When Nikita Khrushchev denounced him in 1956, Georgians rioted. Yet today Georgia has embraced pro-Western democracy, while the Russian rehabilitation of Stalin is best illustrated by those tanks parked protectively beside the white marble temple around the humble birthplace of Iosif Dzhugashvili. This is what Vladimir Putin meant in 2005 when he said that the fall of the Soviet Union was "the greatest geopolitical catastrophe" of the 20th century. And what the poet Yevgeny Yevtushenko meant when he warned, "Double, triple the guard in front of this tomb, / Lest Stalin should ever get out." Perhaps it's too late.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 04:13 PM

I'll keep that in mind.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: robomatic
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 03:51 PM

Just don't go confusing a rational argument with anything that has anything to do with truth or facts. For that you need to have a positive relationship with reality.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 11:51 AM

It's easy to make straw men and then knock them down, as we can see in the above post. It takes effort to make a rational argument.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Ron Davies
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 10:52 AM

Good to know, Carol, that you never make an argument for or against anything. Since you obviously don't feel evidence is necessary. That of course might raise the question as to why it would be worth discussing anything with you. But I'm sure you have a good answer for that.

Naive Mudcatters like me actually always hope to learn something when we read posts. And without actual evidence it's hard to see what we might learn. Otherwise BS threads--at least political ones-- tend toward the waste of time category.

Maybe naive Mudcatters like me will finally learn that.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Riginslinger
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 08:11 AM

I'm not sure how it relates to the War in Georgia, but I would agree that there are people out there who think that they can direct the course of the world simply by controlling capital. I think this has been demonstrated on a number of occasions, by directing funds from the World Bank or the International Monitary Fund. They seem to think that by gaining complete control of the world's capital, they can make world populations do whatever they want it to do.
                  It remains to be seen if these are just a few wing-nuts, are an orchestraded group of powerful players.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 05:59 AM

From akenaton:

"Our lunatics will never stop 'till the whole world lies in ruins."

Our lunatics will never stop if we deliberately choose *not* to stop them.


"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter." - Martin Luther King Jr.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 02:28 AM

This bit right here from that link gives me some pause...

The historical record does not support that position to any large degree but it has become the mantra of the socialist left and their cronies, the media.

If he thinks the media is a crony of the left, I think he's a seriously deluded person.


However, I don't disagree that there is certainly a group (or a collective of groups perhaps) that is pushing an agenda for global governance (and not a democratic type of global governance, either). But it looks to me like some countries are not a part of that agenda, and that in fact, some of them are resisting that agenda. Russia being one of those countries. Others being Iran, Venezuela, China, Cuba, North Korea and possibly Syria (there may be others as well, but they're not in the news right now).

It's because these countries are resisting being absorbed into the new world order that they are the subject of so much bellicose rhetoric from the governments of countries like the US, and also that the government of the US, with the help of its cronies, is arranging to try to break these countries up and/or dispose of their governments.

Which brings us back to what's been going on between the Russians and the Georgians, and the way the US has involved itself in that dispute.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peace
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 02:00 AM

As a btw, I think that is the most important research on the www regarding the neocons and 'how' the agenda is being accomplished.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peace
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 01:46 AM

Read this link, Carol.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 01:19 AM

It's definitely about control. But the neocons in the countries I mentioned are working together on a collective goal that many of the citizens of their respective countries see as not being in their best interests. This is true for people in the US, the UK, and also in Israel. And now, I think that some of the people in some of the former Soviet satellite countries may be starting to see it as not being in their best interests either. And that is going to have a tendency to look to the ordinary citizens of those countries as being divided loyalties on the part of their leaders.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peace
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 12:44 AM

This is not at all about countries, imo. It is about rich people controlling economies. It is not specific to "The US, the UK, some of the former Soviet satellite countries, and Israel,". I would add citizens of China, Japan, the various oil countries: Qatar, Saudi Arabia and others. It is about money, about control.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Aug 08 - 12:40 AM

I think it might be productive to look at the whole question of loyalties from an entirely different angle, anyway.

To me it looks like what we have now is more like a franchise operation. The US, the UK, some of the former Soviet satellite countries, and Israel, all being franchises of a larger enterprise (an emerging global empire), and that the loyalties of those in power are to the larger enterprise rather than to their own individual countries. Of course, they no doubt think that what is good for the larger enterprise is also good for their own countries, so they probably don't see their loyalties as being divided at all. Others of us might tend to see things differently, because we see an inherent conflict between what's good for our own country and what the neocons think is good for the world.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 11:11 PM

"And what the fuck does that have to do with a war in Georgia?"


                  It doesn't. I was simply responding to something somebody else posted. But please keep in mind, I was responding to the world the way I thought "neocons" understood it. Not the average American citizen. Paul Wolfowitz and Richar Perle come to mind.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 09:53 PM

A lot of people in Israel (I'm talking about regular civilians and not members of the government) feel like the US is using Israel to accomplish its agenda more than the other way around. I don't have an opinion on which country is using the other more myself, but there are people in both countries who perceive the other country to be the one who is pulling the strings. Maybe it's some of both. Either way, the agendas of the governments of both countries are so much in lock step that it probably doesn't really matter all that much in the long run.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peace
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 09:24 PM

And what the fuck does that have to do with a war in Georgia?

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peace
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 09:23 PM

"The neocon agenda is global hegemony for the US and Israel."


I would define it a global hegemony for Israel through the US.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 09:18 PM

And that relates to the discussion how?

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peace
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 09:02 PM

From the NY Post. Read it and fuckin' weep.


U.S. JEW HATERS
15 PERCENT ARE ANTI-SEMITIC
By NEIL GRAVES


November 2, 2007

Nearly 35 million American adults - 15 percent - hold views consistent with making them anti-Semitic, according to a survey released yesterday.

The Anti-Defamation League survey, conducted from between Oct. 6 and 19, also showed that 31 percent of Americans believe that Jews are more loyal to Israel than to America, and just over a quarter - 27 percent - believe that Jews were responsible for the death of Christ.

The survey showed that the nearly 35 million adults Americans who held views making them "unquestionably anti-Semitic" increased the rating 1 percentage point from the 14 percent of the 2005 survey.

In 1998, the number of Americans with hard-core anti-Semitic beliefs was as low as 12 percent.

However, the survey found that some stereotypes die hard. It said 27 percent of adult Americans still believe Jews were responsible for the death of Christ, down from 30 percent in 2005 but up from 25 percent in 2002.

It also said 15 percent believe Jews have "too much power in the U.S." - unchanged from 2005.

But what really riled Abraham Foxman, executive director of the ADL, was the 31 percent who believe Jews are more loyal to Israel than America, down from 33 percent in 2005 - but not enough, he says.

"Since we started the survey 40 years ago, that is one question that has never budged - one in three continue to say that," he said.

"This is very sinister. It is a classic anti-Semitic canard. They used it on Dreyfus in France, and Hitler used it. It is very serious."

On the other hand, Jews received high marks in questions that related to ethics and family.

Seventy-five percent said they believe that Jews provided an "emphasis on the importance of family life," 65 percent said that they "contributed much to the cultural life of America," and 55 percent said that Jews provided a "special commitment to social justice and civil rights."

In addition, the survey showed men are more likely than women to hold anti-Semitic views, particularly unmarried men without a college degree.

Foxman said that compared to Europe, the United States is a bastion of tolerance. In a survey earlier this year, half of the Europeans said they believe Jews are not loyal to their home nation.

neil.graves (at) nypost.com

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Peace
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 08:40 PM

Horseshit.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 08:14 PM

"The neocon agenda is global hegemony for the US and Israel."


                I would define it a global hegemony for Israel through the US.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Lox
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 06:48 PM

Lunatics - and sharks?

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 06:45 PM

Depends on how "weakness" is defined.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: robomatic
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 05:50 PM

Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely

So does weakness.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 04:58 PM

Madmen and criminals. But I still see a possibility for some hope.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 04:43 PM

Problem is Carol, that we are governed by madmen.

As Medvedev said, "You know the difference between lunatics and normal people is that when they smell blood it is very difficult to stop them,"

Our lunatics will never stop 'till the whole world lies in ruins.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 04:05 PM

Personally, I don't like my country being the world's hegemon. It's not a good thing for anyone, in my opinion. Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. And the government of this country is absolutely corrupt.

This shift in the balance of power doesn't have to be a problem for us if we handle it properly.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 04:00 PM

Latest is that the Russians are to leave a force in Poti the main port in Georgia, probably to stop the Americans rearming the Georgians.

My My.....the biter bit indeed.
As i said earlier, the balance of power is shifting and instead of laying blame, we should be pondering on how this shift is going to affect us......and it will.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 02:40 PM

Before 2000, I didn't see him as a neocon, either. But he has been toeing the neocon line since 2000, and he's got neocons pretty high up on his staff.

McCain said in his autobiography that he didn't decide to run for president because he wanted to make a difference. He said he decided to run for president because one day he simply got the ambition to be president. If someone simply has an ambition to become president, and they're not doing it out of concern for the issues, getting the neocons to back them has proven in the past to be a very good way to get elected. In order to get the neocons to back you, it's necessary to help them implement their agenda.

The neocon agenda is global hegemony for the US and Israel.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 02:05 PM

Frankly, while I see him as a strong militant, I don't see McCain as a "neocon." Maybe the word means something different to me.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 01:54 PM

Well, one thing for sure, rigs, is that blow-hard McCain certinly gave the Georgians every reason to think that the US had their back... That is not a conspiracy theory... That is fact, down to hiring their lobbiest to advise him on Georgia affairs...

Then the "We are all Georgians" proclamation cemented it...

Problem is that this is the way McCain really thinks and that is why he is for re-establishing the draft... so he can keep muti-wars going forever... McCain is the poster boy for the neocon movement...

War, war and more war... Can't get enough war... That is the only paradyme that the man understands...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 01:34 PM

Evidence is only needed when one is saying that something is fact, or making an argument for or against something. Opinion and speculation do not need evidence. If someone feels that he or she has a right to dictate how other people discuss their opinions and speculations, that person has an unhealthy need to control others.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Riginslinger
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 09:39 AM

Here's a conspiracy theory:

1. The US knew Russia was pissed about what's happened in Kosovo (and who could blame them?)

2. The US wanted to plant missile bases in Poland

3. The US leaked information to Saakashvili to lead him to believe that if he moved on South Ossetia, the US would do whatever it takes to back him up--after all, look how Kosovo has gone so far.

4. Saakashvili moves into South Ossetia with confidence in the information from the US.

5. Suddenly, the US develops amnesia

6. Russia moves and Poland panics, and agrees to the US missle bases.


          Everybody got what they wanted but Saakashvili, but maybe he could be indicted for war crimes or something, to shut him up and make him go away.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Ron Davies
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 08:18 AM

A request for evidence is always a reasonable idea at any part in a discussion. Unless of course the goal is just to let off steam or run off at the mouth.

I've made my views on the war in Georgia pretty clear--that Saakashvili always planned to drag South Ossetia and Abkhazia back into the fold against their wills--that was virtually a campaign promise -- and that US politicians who are trying to act tough by condemning Russia's opposition to this are pathetic individuals--and basically the anti-TR---since there's virtually nothing the US can do to stop Russia from supporting South Ossetia and Abkhazia. Also that said US politicians are just pandering to the rather large number of Americans who like to shake their fists at foreigners.

I also hold no brief for McCain. He's been dead wrong on Iraq from the start--the problems in Iraq are still there and at some point it is still likely to break up. Also he is using his tough-guy image to appeal to the same jingoists mentioned above.

None of this excuses those of us on the other side from actually thinking and insisting on evidence, rather than excusing a temporary setback for us by a conspiracy theory which so far appears to be the imaginative meanderings of a columnist.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Aug 08 - 02:59 AM

The Vietnam war was a conspiracy on a grand scale (Gulf of Tonkin, and the Pentagon Papers are my evidence for this). We didn't have proof of the conspiracy until many years later. Many people suspected there was a conspiracy involved and they talked about it in much the same way we are discussing the possibility of one here in this thread. The people who discussed the possibility that there was a conspiracy behind the Vietnam war were not conspiracy theorists. The people in this thread who are discussing the possibility that there is a conspiracy behind Saakashvili's decision to attack and invade South Ossetia are also not conspiracy theorists.

So far, people have only suggested the possibility of a conspiracy, and they've shown their reasons for considering it a possibility (in my case, I only posted articles that I felt contained some interesting possibilities, and they provide their own justifications for the things they postulate). When they (we) get to the point where we are stating it, not as a possibility, but as a fact, that's when people can start demanding proof.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Ron Davies
Date: 22 Aug 08 - 11:45 PM

Fine, Carol. Now let's have some evidence. I have patience, and I'll be glad to wait for you.

I don't deny conspiracies exist. The most obvious one is Bush's conspiracy to hoodwink the US public into his planned attack on Iraq. But for that one, there is evidence, to say the least.

So far, for this one, nobody has provided any evidence.

You do know about post hoc propter hoc, I trust.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Aug 08 - 11:38 PM

"Conspiracy theory" is a nice ad hominem sort of attack to lob at people, but more often than not it has no substance or merit.

Anyone who thinks that there are never conspiracies behind major world events (or who even think they are unusual) is not very observant.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Ron Davies
Date: 22 Aug 08 - 11:29 PM

"How else to explain the folly....?"

Actually the simplest answer seems the most likely. Just pure stupidity on the part of Saakashvili. He didn't think about the likelihood that Russia would not only throw enough military weight into the crisis that the Georgians would have no chance, but would also take advantage of the situation to strengthen the breakaway provinces in their separation from Georgia.

No conspiracy theory needed.   Why oh why are so many Mudcatters so enamored of conspiracy theories?

This one sounds like classic post hoc propter hoc.

That won't wash. We need some actual evidence. If Saakashvili himself has said something about an agreement for US backup against Russia in his move against South Ossetia, that would be something concrete. So let's have some direct quotes--if they exist.

Everything I've read indicates the US constantly cautioned him against his attack--and he ignored the advice.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 Aug 08 - 09:56 PM

"The Georgian Jews have traditionally lived separately..."


                Probably not a good idea!

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Aug 08 - 09:29 PM

And by the way, Georgians have been conducting massacres of Ossets for hundreds of years. So I think the Ossets have a good reason to not want to live with them.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Emma B
Date: 22 Aug 08 - 09:27 PM

From Wikipedia -

The Georgian Jews have traditionally lived separately, not only from the surrounding Georgian people, but even from the Ashkenazi ("European or Germanic Jews") community in Tbilisi.

The community, which numbered about 100,000 as recently as the 1970s, has largely emigrated to Israel, the United States, the Russian Federation and Belgium.
As of 2004, only about 13,000 Georgian Jews remain in Georgia. According to the 2002 First General National Census of Georgia there are 3,541 Jewish believers in the country.

Just a few Jewish families remained in the old Jewish quarter of Tskhinvali where the recent Georgian bombardment seems to have been particulary heavy; several blocks of one- and two-storey homes were said to have been totally destroyed by bombing by Reuters reporters.
All but one of those Jewish residents fled during the recent war, the American Jewish Joint Distribution Committee says. The one remaining Jew, a 71-year-old woman, apparently sought shelter

A a century-old brick empty synagogue provided a safe shelter for about 50 people, mostly women and children and several elderly men, not so fortunate on Tskhinvali's Shaumian Street.
Limited to the few supplies they brought with them, the refugees endured excruciating thirst and hunger while agonizing over the sounds of war outside, but all survived.

About a block away, a line of houses was reduced to splinters and cinders by rocket fire. A rocket exploded in the synagogue's yard, shattering some windows but leaving the structure intact.'
- Associated Press

Despite the strong condemnation of the Georgian assault on South Ossetia by the president of the World Congress of Russian Jews, Boris Shpigel, there does not seem to be any evidence of antisemitism in this internal seperatist stuggle.


'LSO conductor Valery Gergiev leads pro-Russia concert in Ossetia'

Gergiev -- who grew up in the neighboring Russian region of North Ossetia -- visited the devastated Jewish Quarter of South Ossetia's capital, Tskhinvali, before conducting a special concert on the town's central square.

'The program was specially designed to combine pomp, grandeur and defiance with pathos and grief.

Shostakovich's Leningrad Symphony, written on the orders of Stalin to rouse Russians against the Nazi invasions, was followed by the delicate strains of Tchaikovsky's Pathetique symphony.

Russian soldiers perched on the top of armoured personnel carriers, straining for a better view, as Orthodox priests, Jewish rabbis and even an imam passed through the audience granting benedictions to a self-proclaimed nation united in victory.'

Telegraph.co.uk 22 Aug 2008

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Aug 08 - 09:26 PM

People often flee from places where there is war happening. Many Ossets have fled from South Ossetia because of Georgia's attack there.

The fact that Jews fled from the earlier conflict is not an indication that they did so because of anti-Semitism, although I guess it might be tempting for some people to try to make it look like they did.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Aug 08 - 08:37 PM

McCain acted irresponsibly in blowin' smoke up Saakashvili's butt about how the US was gonna protect poor little Georgia against the mean ol' Ruskies...

McCain shoule be tried as an accomplioce to war crimes right along side of Saakashvili...

Period...

End of stupidity and Cold War crap outta McCain...

And for the record, I am not, nor have I ever been, nor will I ever be, a Georgian, thank you... That was more McCain smoke being blown up the butts of the Anmerican people...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: Lox
Date: 22 Aug 08 - 08:19 PM

Interesting perspective bruce.

I would never have considered the possibility that there was an anti semitic motive behind these events.

I can't help but find the McCain/Scheunemann scenario to be the more compelling of the two theories.

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 22 Aug 08 - 07:57 PM

So, what does South Ossetia look like now that it is "independent"?


"It has largely stood empty since nearly all of Tskhinvali's 2,000 Jews fled in 1991 during a war in which South Ossetians won de facto self rule, although the building is occasionally used by a Christian group.

All but 17 of South Ossetia's Jews left during the earlier conflict, mostly going to Israel or Russia, and all but one of those fled during the recent war, the American Jewish Joint Distribution Committee says. The one remaining Jew, a 71-year-old woman, apparently sought shelter elsewhere."



"Before the conflict, the province was a patchwork of ethnic Georgian and South Ossetian villages, but many Georgian villages around Tskhnivali were still burning Friday and bore evidence of looting by Ossetians.

Many Ossetians said they would never again live side by side with Georgians. "




Juden AND Georgian frei...

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 22 Aug 08 - 01:04 PM

Chicken Valley - Tshkinvali

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Aug 08 - 12:41 PM

Heh. I guest that would make it "wag the dog" by proxy.


What is the battle of Chicken Valley?

Subject: RE: BS: War in Georgia
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Aug 08 - 12:37 PM

If that is their strategy, it seems to be working. No surprise there, I suppose.