BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: john f weldon
Date: 23 Dec 07 - 02:07 PM

Not me. I don't have beliefs, at least not in the absolute sense. I assign probabilities, although some are quite high. But nothing reaches 100%. Not mind. Not matter. Not the universe, or my perception of the universe. Not my own existence. Zilch.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: M.Ted
Date: 23 Dec 07 - 01:58 PM

Everybody believes in something, even, and often especially, atheists.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Stringsinger
Date: 23 Dec 07 - 01:43 PM

Susan,

I'll check into the site you recommended.

I think any dialogue and idea sharing is beneficial in today's heated atmosphere of
either polarity or of indifference is always useful no matter what forum.

I hope you can get your musical circle up and running again soon.

I maintain (this may be another thread) that the next Folk Music Revival will
take place in the living room rather than the concert stage or recordings.
When enough people begin to own the music, then an audience is built.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 23 Dec 07 - 01:41 PM

The failure to differentiate between things that are actually different is the sure keynote of insanity.


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Stringsinger
Date: 23 Dec 07 - 01:38 PM

Right, John, and that's the trouble with labels.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: john f weldon
Date: 23 Dec 07 - 01:12 PM

D. Dennett notes a couple of articles by modern theologians. One who believes in an anthropomorphic god considers those who believe in a less personal version to be "no different from Atheists." And, needless to say, vice versa. Everyone's an Atheist to someone!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 23 Dec 07 - 05:46 AM

There are many of us who believe in one God and some who believe in many Gods.......

The difference between an atheist and you is only a matter of degree. As a believer in one God, you disbelieve in many. The atheist just disbelieves in one more God than you.

DC

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 23 Dec 07 - 01:39 AM

In my book, reactionaries are those whose thoughts are push-button in nature, not analytical, and concomitantly also tend to be driven by fear and hate rather than cheerful tolerance of one's fellow humans in principle.


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: M.Ted
Date: 23 Dec 07 - 12:59 AM

I think Amos was pretty clearly critical of both ends of the spectrum, Riginslinger--but you have put forward an entertaining parallel--those two groups sound a lot a like(both are NAs)-maybe there is some sort of "ClipArt" for hate literature--cut and paste your favorite enemy;-)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 22 Dec 07 - 10:37 PM

..."just listen to the reactionaries expound on "illegal immigration" for an example of distorted importances..."


                   But who are the reationaries, the National Allience, the Nation of Aztlan, or both?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 22 Dec 07 - 01:46 PM

While I completely support fixing the broken parts of social networks, I do feel it important to add that one of the elements that can be very toxic to any network of beings is false data, and another is arbitrary weighting of importance. The problem with many proselytizing groups (of any stamp whatsoever) is that they often seek to inject data into a calculation about life and survival and such that is false or wholly arbitrary relative to that problem and its solutions. Or, they interject assertions of importance that are all topsy turvy -- just listen to the reactionaries expound on "illegal immigration" for an example of distorted importances.

It can drive a feller barmy, it can. ;>)


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 22 Dec 07 - 10:21 AM

Frank, I must be "channeling" you now, because you just wrote pretty much what I would write back to you-- all the ideas, and most of the words. I would add, personally, that I think you and I did something good here, in the exchanges we have had. I don;t care too much whether it benefits Mudcat-- not an expectation-- but I am very much aware how it is already benfiting my relationships, ideas, and action outside of this community of people.

BTW our music circle is on hiatus these days-- long story-- but we still incorporate what we can into our Saturday Night Service activities. In June I will lead a Spirituals teaching workshop for some pretty staid Episcopalians (many of whom will be church musicians). I plan to turn them loose on dot-free singing and textual improvisation. :~)

A place you might want to look for models of peaceful change is here: www.rc.org (Not "the" RC Church), in their materials and theory around eliminating racism which extend into eliminating all "isms."

Happy Holidays, and WELL MET,

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Stringsinger
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 07:28 PM

Hi Susan,

Thank you for the interesting post.

I think there is a problem with throwing the baby out with the proverbial bathwater.
I agree totally wiith building alliances rather than operating on adversity.

I think the best protest or agitation comes from a deep sense of commitment and an avoidance of emnity and anger. I think that this is within the province of those who are believers or non-believers of any religious faith.

It will take a community of people with good will to respond to the injustice that we now face in a sociopathic political administration.

I take your point about healing and fixing the broken parts of a system. My view is that
the system that works for the benefit of society can include many parts, those who believe in a faith and those who do not. I think that it is necessary to understand all parts of any system that affects how society works. I think that inclusion as best as it can be acheived
is an ethical and noble goal if there is honest agreement in those working together.

I have respect for many people who are religious. I see many sincere folks as seeking
truths for their lives and I think this is a constructive pursuit. Secularism is another one of those labels that fail to define everyone who applies it to themselves. What is really scary to me is a closed mind and an unwillingness to investigate that which is sometimes uncomfortable to talk about. Here, the labels of secularist or relgionist become masks for
dealing with the real issues. One main issue for me is to explore how can a society exist without using the option of war and emnity as problem solvers.

Some see religion as creating a polarization and accuse others who don't believe as contributing to it. I think this comes down to the individual. There are polarizing
people who derive something from this behavior whether religious or not.

So people have to find their own way toward the goal of creating a free and peaceful society. I agree that we all have a lot to learn.

I thank you for your honest and thoughtful responses, and when it comes to education,
values, wanting the best that we can have for society, and seeing a mission to help people discover the joy of music, I know we are on the same page.

As we discuss these issues of religion I see an opening that augurs a change that is
beneficial for everyone. It doesn't have to be a line-in-the-sand discussion but can
be a vehicle for intelligent exchange of ideas.

I admire that you wanted to explore other avenues of your life which required courage.

I think you articulated your position well.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 07:14 PM

Not all of us riginslinger. There are many of us who believe in one God and some who believe in many Gods.......you can believe in none if you wish...that's your choice but please don't tar us all with the same brush as yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 06:33 PM

"...and if that happens Mrzzy, God help us all..."


                     And since we all know there are no goDs, that's no help at all.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: M.Ted
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 05:32 PM

"And I do not give up hope of having control"--and if that happens Mrzzy, God help us all.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 03:40 PM

Mike, I can't tell you how many times those e-mails you send now and then have brightened my day. Thank you so very much. Back atcha. Take care.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 03:35 PM

Echo that Bruce. You aint so bad yourself mate!
Have a great Christmas all....Best wishes, Mike.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 02:28 PM

Susan, I hope your Christmas is wonderful. IMO, you're on the side of the angels. Keep up the good work.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 01:36 PM

From what I have read on this thread, you could replace the term 'organized religion' with 'political party' and not have to change much else.

What a coinkydink. I came to post this--

A terribly earnest and thoroughly-scripted [insert product of your stereotype of an enemy] young salesperson just stopped by our front door, to take more of our time than we cared to give, "bearing gifts."

The distinction is, is the person (A) following a script to (B) sell something, or (A) having an honest, interpersonal conversation (B) they and I have agreed to have?

Of course we told her politely that we were not interested, and closed the door. We did not try to convert her away from her program, for the sake of "her potential," because SHE IS AN ADULT doing her own thing.

(Didn't we fight in the 60's for the right to do our own thing???)

I am not looking to reprogram her, and I am not looking to get re-programmed. By her-- or by a well-meaning Mudcatter who cares about my "potential."

Don't we all like to think we have that in common?

Today (I know you're dying to know), it was Kirby vacuum cleaners. Tomorrow it will be Ron Paul campaigners. Next week, Mormons. Alla da samesame. Now, if Mrrzy comes, I would hope it will be for MUSIC.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 12:01 PM

My last post here:





















BEWARE OF STUPID PEOPLE IN GROUPS

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 12:00 PM

From what I have read on this thread, you could replace the term 'organized religion' with 'political party' and not have to change much else. (BTW, I know Will Roger's quote.)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 11:42 AM

Great you're back, Gnu. Hope you are feeling gooood.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: gnu
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 11:16 AM

Merry HOHO to you too, Peace. A... god bless eh.

700+ posts. Jeepers Creepers!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 11:15 AM

Amen to that, brother.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 11:12 AM

And a jolly Winterval to all.

Ya know, I don't think there is any question that the Universe is a very very very large and wondrous place, relative to which human interactions are quite small in scale, and perhaps insignificant. But of course, they are not insignificant to me! And I really think it is quite amazing to see this uppity little bipedal species of ours raise up and start measuring and adjudicating the comings and goings of the galaxies and star-clusters, and peering into the black holes of far-off universes. It is presumptuous, full of hubris; but it is also high-spirited, bold, adventurous and fun. In spite of all its strange flaws and mental corkscrews, the spirit of humanity, in my opinion, is a wonder to behold in play.

So you will occasionally hear me say something like "God bless" or "Thank God", in a very heartfelt way, despite my rejection of traditional theistic structures, because one thing I know for sure is it is a very big universe. And I wish it to be kind to all my fellow hoomings. But the spirit of Mankind is all the godhead I need, thanks.

A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 10:03 AM

Well, I think for the second time I will wish my friends here a Merry/Happy Christmas--or Christmas season as you prefer.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 09:59 AM

"Again - who cares what they think if they are taking the right actions?"


                They aren't, of course, taking the right actions. They are taking all of the wrong actions; they just don't know it. They can say they are taking the right actions, and that makes them feel good, and that's all that matters.

                In the end, they are doing great damage to the greater society.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Wesley S
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 09:50 AM

Because God told me to - 700 {and it's not a club}

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Wesley S
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 09:49 AM

If that's the case you must be leading a very frustrating life if you are bothered by what others think. And I would disagree with you that nothing is being done about poverty. But it seems to me as if you are discounting the actions that many churchs are undertaking because you don't approve of the origin of their motives.

Again - who cares what they think if they are taking the right actions?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Mrrzy
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 09:38 AM

In various incarnations: ...it's MY potential to waste if I want to. It's really none of your business. And since it's something you have no control over - why do you bother?

1) You are part of my world, therefore wasting you is my business (I am involved in mankind, the poet wrote). It IS my business when people around me pray to end poverty (example only) but nothing gets DONE. And I do not give up hope of having control, which is why I stay in these threads, and talk to intelligent individuals I meet, and attempt to demonstrate the lack of reason in their faith.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: TheSnail
Date: 21 Dec 07 - 05:32 AM

M.Ted

Seems like we had a discussion a while back relating to some pubs in Lewes--

A part of perceived reality dear to my heart. There are two theses being written abouth the Lewes Arms. One on psychology and one on "Intangible Heritage".

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Dec 07 - 11:29 PM

I always thought Harvey Nagila was Jewish.

But then, perhaps I'm confusing the reference with that Mexican folk song, "Have Some Tequila."

(Well, somebody had to do it!)

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 20 Dec 07 - 10:27 PM

Just don't get Harvey mixed up with Santa-- different fashion choices is the big tipoff. I think some people confuse Santa with God-- that keeping a list, naughty or nice thing? (God isn't like that. He's watching too, but with the eyes of love.) I'm not sure Santa is like the song says he is, either, except maybe when he spanks the Mrs., but I heard that she likes it.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: M.Ted
Date: 20 Dec 07 - 10:22 PM

In addition to people who believe in things that Mrzzy doesn't like. Although I still haven't figured out why it makes any difference at all what she likes or doesn't like. Does she like Harvey? Does she like Harvey's? Seems like we had a discussion a while back relating to some pubs in Lewes--

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: TheSnail
Date: 20 Dec 07 - 09:09 PM

I had no idea what I was capable of until I put my trust in Harvey's.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 20 Dec 07 - 06:27 PM

Harvey Nagila is just a false idol, Bill. The True Harvey is a Rabbit. About 8' tall, with glowing red eyes that just lather the place with divine fury and forgiveness, depending on his mood. Most people say they cannot see him, but, well...you know...that's because they don't want t face the truth.

A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Dec 07 - 06:20 PM

hmmm...the only one I know is 'Harvey Nageela', and he won't even talk to me.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Wesley S
Date: 20 Dec 07 - 06:00 PM

And yes Amos - Harvey IS the Truth and The Way. I'm glad you're coming to your senses.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Wesley S
Date: 20 Dec 07 - 05:58 PM

"There are a lot of atheists who have wasted their lives, when it comes down to that. And many who have squandered them on dubious achievements"

The same thing can be said about people of faith too. It's not fair to single out either side. It's peoples actions that count.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 20 Dec 07 - 05:47 PM

I had no idea what I was capable of until I put my trust in Harvey.


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Dec 07 - 05:23 PM

"It does save you on Christmas gifts, though--"

*sigh* it only changes what you CALL 'em!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: M.Ted
Date: 20 Dec 07 - 05:15 PM

There are a lot of atheists who have wasted their lives, when it comes down to that. And many who have squandered them on dubious achievements. It does save you on Christmas gifts, though--

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 20 Dec 07 - 04:09 PM

Mrzzy....I didn't know my own potential until I invited God into my life at the tender age of 43!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: M.Ted
Date: 20 Dec 07 - 01:55 PM

The only potential you can do anything about is your own, Mrzzy-

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Nickhere
Date: 20 Dec 07 - 12:45 PM

Wesley, I concur on drivers who cut you off, (and many other examples of bad manners) it's better just to ignore them than pointlessly getting your blood pressure up. I'm only afraid for the drivers on the other side of the road who are about to encounter them a few miles on! Once upon a time it occured to me that one reason we find other drivers so frustrating is that we're all closed in our little metal boxes unable to communicate with each other. There may be a good reason why the guy in front of you is doing only 30 kmph but if he can't tell you and you can't get past, bile starts to rise! One solution i thought of was to have those elctronic message boards like the ones you see in banks and social welfare offices. They could be placed along teh back window and carry a few pre-set messages like 'oops! sorry for cutting you off" or "pardon me for that bit of overtaking".

Then two problems occured to me - just like indicators people would probably forget to use them anyway, and it would be only a matter of time before someone found a way to re-engineer them to carry offensive messages; th electronic equivalent of giving a two-finger salute!

Happy Christmas to all you mudcatters, see you in the New Year!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 20 Dec 07 - 11:44 AM

I think in some cases, Mrrzy, it may be a self-elected method of recovering human potential. It may not be the best way to do it, but it's a work-around that sdome folks find effective.



A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Wesley S
Date: 20 Dec 07 - 10:45 AM

"Of course it matters if people think there are gods - it's a huge waste of human potential!"

And it's MY potential to waste if I want to. It's really none of your business. And since it's something you have no control over - why do you bother? Why not try to fix the problem of Brittany Spears fans? Shouldn't they really be listening to folk music? You'll have just as much luck with that one too.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Mrrzy
Date: 20 Dec 07 - 10:32 AM

Of course it matters if people think there are gods - it's a huge waste of human potential!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 20 Dec 07 - 10:16 AM

Well, regardless of folks' beliefs (excepting Nazi crud, neocons and racists), I wish y'all a happy holiday season and if you are Christian, a very Merry Christmas. Take care.

Also, Nickhere, thanks very much for the message.