BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 03:10 PM

Heh! Well, Slag, troll or not, he inadvertently opened the door to a chance to talk about some interesting stuff here.

My God in the 7th, 8th, and 9th grades was a girl named Pam Ford. Hard to believe now, but she was. She was that which I esteemed highest in my heart.

I did a search for her name not long ago on the Net, just out of curiosity, and all it came up with was a list of names of all the students in my graduating class in '66. Not a single other trace of Pam on the entire internet. Of course, I rather doubt her last name is Ford now...she was eminently marriageable, being the most popular girl in the entire class. I kid you not, she was. She was a cheerleader too. I bet she was married by 25, if not sooner. She now probably has grandchildren and is living in a split level bungalow with some guy I couldn't stand back then...and I have been saved, by the grace of God, from being that guy! ;-) It wouldn't have worked out.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Slag
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 02:52 PM

God, this was such an easy button for the TROLL to push. To bad this didn't occur on another thread. Nonetheless (said the Fool), Yes LH. One of the great theologians of the last century, Paul Tillich said (paraphrasticly) that what a man esteems highest in his heart is his god, and you drove that nail all the way in.

Art! How right you are! We don't need to be keeping no stinking rules! No dogma! No "love your neighbor as yourself" No "thou shalt not murder, steal, lie!" Right on! No more stinking RULES! Art for president! Art for God! Art for art's sake!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 02:25 PM

"Controlling" and "winning" are definitely big ones on the list, Susan. Good of you to note that.

Art, "Controlling the people and not allowing them to stray from the "RULES" of the damned dogmas" also applies to the activities of all political organizations, military organizations, police forces, unions, political states, political parties, professional organizations, and even many (if not most) of the common social clubs. They (virtually) ALL seek to control their membership through a set of rules and dogmas. And they concoct the most wonderful sounding reasons and justifications for doing it too, but it's mostly about control... ;-) The fact that people also do that in organized religion only shows that it is a nasty tendency which tends to creep into ALL organized forms of hierarchical human activity. It is not seen exclusively in religion, then, but in every field of collectively organized human endeavour...and it is the bane of free thinkers in every field as well.

Every power structure is lorded over by its leaders and their underlings who are appointed as controllers over the general membership. Only if their own character (leaders and underlings) is impeccable, and their ideals likewise, and their judgement excellent, will they avoid the abuses commonly involved in controlling other people.

You can use your power to do good or evil when you have authority over others. You can enforce rules wisely or foolishly. This is as true in religious organizations as it is in any other organizations. Therefore, I see no reason to single out religion for damnation while ignoring the rest of the very similar BS that goes on in our lives.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 01:49 PM

Re: Burden of Proof

This is a debating term, right, a specific forensics obligation?


Some people posting in this sort of thread prefer debate according to whatever debating conventions they learned, usually in college I gather.

Others prefer humor.

Others prefer exploration.

Others sharpen old saws. (Art T. plays his musically.)

Some are displaying old hurts and resentments.


That's just the nature of Mudcat threads-- here there are no "facilitators" guiding dicussions that, IRL, a facilitator might conduct with ground rules agreed among the participants in advance.

We can REFER to rules here but there actually aren't very many and people are not usually all following the same rulebook.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 01:11 PM

Can I suggest that the 'Burden of proof' lies with either side..ie whoever is trying to prove or disprove has it!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: number 6
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 01:08 PM

Actually this is an interesting thread by Guest Eddy.

Good points raised (exception being Wynona Horowitz)

A good read if anyone is interested is (if I may suggest) "God is not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything" by Christopher Hitchens.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 12:38 PM

"Sorry, shimrod, the burden of proof is with the one postulating the theory."

In this case, I'm not sure that I'm prepared to accept that. After all modern science seems to provide a better (if necessarily incomplete) picture of how the world works than religion ever did - and with far fewer logical inconsistencies.

Nevertheless, as the bases for their 'fairy tales' crumble away, some religious people seem to be becoming more and more militant: demanding that we accept and respect their various faiths without question and even demanding that we all live by them. Some of these people even goes as far murdering people in order to impose their dogmas (eg. Oklahoma City, 9/11, Madrid, the London Tube bombings etc.).

The initiator of this thread has been called a "troll" - and maybe he is - but he raises questions which are worth asking - especially in the context of the modern world.

Let's put it this way: if you've got deeply held religious beliefs then fine - I hope that they make you happy and that you find solace in them. But if you try to impose them on me, or demand that I live by them, then you're going to have to convince me that those beliefs have some basis in fact - otherwise you're going to have a fight on your hands!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 12:16 PM

Art, them's fighting words, my friend. (My husband and I are in the ministry, and we know many other in the ministry who are not at all about what you described.)

So heads-up! :~)

I proposed controlling people as a societal pattern, not a merely religious one. The desire to control transcends religion.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Art Thieme
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 11:45 AM

Susan, YES, that IS actually what religions are mostly about.

Controlling the people and not allowing them to stray from the "RULES" of the damned dogmas. All those "laws" in the bible. What better way to rule over wandering people in the desert---or in the chaos of the modern world, for that matter. Extrapolate to modern Jehovah's Witnesses who literally believe every word in the "book" (not "Rise Up Singing") to be true utterances of the divine that MUST be obeyed -- as interpreted by them---the willing SLAVES.

Pretty sad!

Art

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 11:40 AM

The "burden of proof" still lies with the theist.

Sorry, shimrod, the burden of proof is with the one postulating the theory.

Still waiting, Ed.

D.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Rasener
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 11:19 AM

Hey Stigweard you almost spoiled my post.

I have only one God and that is Aston Villa. I have followed them through thick and thin, without question, even when times were bad.
Martin O'Neill is a disciple.
The eleven players are the bread of life and the fishes are the clean shirts hanging out ready for the next match.
The crowd are the followers.

You religious people can think what you like but you are so far off beam.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 11:09 AM

ETYMOLOGY:        Middle English flendris, possibly of Scandinavian origin; akin to Norwegian flindra, splinter.

I submit that you are not discussing Gods, but only flinders of Gods! :D Or perhaps the icons of aggregate sin.


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Stu
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 11:09 AM

He certainly does exist - his name is Martin O'Neill and he's going to get the Villa into Europe next season.

Back of the net!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 11:07 AM

There was at least one important one I forgot to put on the list of "Gods":

Another one: "winning"-- that competitive thing.

"Controlling" would be another.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 11:06 AM

I commend you, Susan, for resurrecting the fine old word "flinders". It is a noble term, and served well for centuries, and should be allowed to fade from disuse.


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 11:02 AM

Thanks, Susan. ;-) It's been on my mind for years, observing people as they go about their daily worship, quite unaware of the nature of the God(s) they really believe in.

That is exactly why in the Bible (and in many other holy books from numerous other religions) it says "Thou shalt have no other Gods before me". They may not say it in exactly the same words, but they all say it, and they have very good reason for doing so.

There was at least one important one I forgot to put on the list of "Gods":

Country! (patriotism) - A God that has been used as the prime motivator for countless wars and other organized efforts of humanity.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 10:57 AM

[I ACCIDENTALLY HIT SUBMIT BUTTON]

Besides, LH, your post opens the question to:

When we discuss "God"'s existence, are we trying to speak of our opinion of the objective reality, or of whatever God we create, ourselves?

THERE's the thorny topic we usually dance around, here-- have done so for years myself, without taking that aspect of it apart. It's a mad dance!

[applying Rap-sword]

There. Split to flinders.

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 10:53 AM

LH, my friend, I think that is the smartest, most succinct post I've ever seen from you. That was a VERY DAMN-FINE JOB!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 10:49 AM

Hey, yeah....besides, consider this: there are MANY Gods in this society. They're all over the place. One's God is whatever one has the most faith in, and to whom one gives one's unquestioning allegiance!

So...here are some of the ruling Gods of this society:

1. Money!

2. Sex!

3. Good looks!

4. Fame!

5. Doctors! (That white suit somehow confers an aura of omnipotence and omniscience to so many people.)

6. Science! (If the scientific community says its true, it MUST be true...right? And if they say it's good for you, it MUST be good for you, right? Ummm...well...check again in a few decades...cos they may have changed their minds.)

7. the President! (If you like his party and policies...if not, you may think he's not God at all, but the Devil incarnate.)

I submit that most of the above rank higher in the estimation and daily attention of the average American than the God of religion...specially # 1 Money. Money is the ruling God of society, and it's a totally made-up thing that people invented. It's worth only what they all agree to pretend it's worth. It's a fiction masquerading as a daily necessity. It's real in effect, but not real in itself.

MONEY is the God that rules your life, Ed. It's a false God. Do something about that. ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: skarpi
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 04:47 AM

O dear , here we go again .

Dear Ed , start looking , you´ll be surprised what you will
discover .

you will find , what is called God very near you ,
you just have to look for it .

it does not matter , if its , christian , Islam, Budda , we all
have to look and find .


and when you find it , what you are looking for , then tell us
what is there .

I know where to find it , but you ´ll have to find it your self
noone can do it for you .

All the best Skarpi Iceland

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,Justaguy
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 04:36 AM

I think the answer to Guest, Ed should have been a simple "okay". Could have stopped this thread in it's tracks or perhaps driven Guest,Ed completely over the edge.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Slag
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 04:24 AM

That certainly is a "faith" statement, Guest (Ghost?)! Get a grip. God told me that "the fool has said in his heart 'there is no God'". He also said that a person's ways always seem right to himself but it always leads to his or her destruction.

Once you establish a name (no fear, no shame)come again and ask the same.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: akenaton
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 04:09 AM

If people feel the need to worship something, then I suppose the thing which gives life to every living organism on earth would fit the bill.
To worship the sun, seems much more sensible than some figment of our imagination. Some father figure, who has been moulded to reinforce all our human insecurities for the benefit of "organised religion"....Ake

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 03:47 AM

"a blind man recognises no shapes"

Now THAT is NOT true, but I will admit that a group of blind men will give conflicting reports on an elephant...

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 02:22 AM

"Sorry, Bobert, but no-one can prove a negative"
Sorry, Shimrod, that statement is incorrect. One can prove one did not commit a crime, with a good alibi. One can prove the absence of oxygen when a lit match goes out. One can prove many negatives. The burden of proof lies still with the one who made the original assertion - and that's all it is, an assertion, if not a taunt.

Just because a blind man recognises no shapes, it does not mean that they do not exist. Nothing is self-evident. Indeed those who believe in self-evident truths, are the ones denying logic a chance. Now, apply this to the opening thread.

Though Peace said it much more succinctly with his point 3 above.

Some people have far too much time in their hands, or are letting life pass them by.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Art Thieme
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 12:59 AM

If Winona Ryder had Terry Gross's voice, there would be a God----and I would start praying to her!

I know you Ryder, you gonna miss me when I'm gone...
You gonna miss your lovin' baby from rollin' in your arms!

I still feel that all religions are wishful thinking---! But that's just me. You all are cool as all hell---no matter what you believe. "You can be in my dream, if I can be in yours!?!?"---Bobby D.

Love,

Art

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Donuel
Date: 01 Dec 07 - 12:06 AM

aaaaaaaaaa
death to infidel teddy bears.

aaaayaaaayaaaa yaaaa
asalamalakem

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 11:28 PM

You shouldn't have signed your name, Rapaire -- it was supposed to be eponymous.


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 11:02 PM

I have a foil I can supply to either LH or Winona. Or an epee. Or even a saber.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 11:01 PM

GUEST,Ed better watch his step, there!

He's obviously unaware that God has been stirring to activity lately. After all, He registered His disapproval of the filming of The Passion of the Christ by zapping the guy playing Jesus (James Caviezel) with a bolt of lightning. That's a fact! Not only that, He let the assistant director have it twice! Now, why He didn't go after Mel Gibson is a mystery to me, but then, who am I to argue with God!??

GUEST,Ed is risking a lightning bolt up the arse!

Don Firth

P. S. I notice he hasn't been back. Just walking in, let one, and left. That oughta tell you something. . . .

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: wysiwyg
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 10:57 PM

I have a duty to tell the truth

Sometimes it's hard to tell the diff between a duty and a doodie. This sounds to me like a diaperful of the latter.

(Or perhaps alcohol is involved here?)

In any case, most of the grownups around here tend not to yell FIRE in pubs. Oh, one CAN do that-- just as one can start a thread proclaiming either "There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)" or (as I am sometimes tempted), "Atheists are Ignorant and Often Rude."

But if IRL we tend not to do these things, sometimes emulating one's IRL restraint is a good thing, even at Mudcat (the apparent portal into the absurd).

~Susan


~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 10:51 PM

. . . or out of saran wrap . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: number 6
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 10:45 PM

Oh you mean Winona Laura Horowitz.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: number 6
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 10:44 PM

Who's Winona Ryder ?

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Don Firth
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 10:43 PM

Ye gods (if you'll pardon the expression)!! Look at all the people who bit!!

Now, just where the hell is Billy Goat Gruff when you need him!??

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 10:31 PM

"I meant, of course, the unforgettable Winona Ryder; she has been apprised of Little Hawk's vulnerability and is interested in providing a foil..."

If she provided LH with Saran Wrap instead . . . .

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 10:25 PM

"There is no God...blank film at 11:00!"

Gee, Ed.... now that you have made it so clear and positive---or is that negative? ...I guess everyone will just nod wisely and quit going to church. And I won't have to have these learned debates any more. *sigh*...you've ruined my fun!


(you know what the answer is? God didn't really create the universe...it was some other Supreme Being using his name!)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 10:02 PM

Yeah, yeah... ;-)

Winona can do whatever she wants to. I don't mind.

As for Shane, I don't think he's given much thought to God, one way or the other. He's had his mind on other things entirely.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 09:54 PM

I meant, of course, the unforgettable Winona Ryder; she has been apprised of Little Hawk's vulnerability and is interested in providing a foil...



A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Sorcha
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 09:52 PM

Uh...that pic of Bob? Seems to me it looks a lot like Michael J....

I think my mind has finally snapped.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 09:49 PM

It is frustrating that somebody would start a thread like this without letting other posters know who they are.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 09:49 PM

I am in fact presently cutting a deal with that movie star he is so infatuated with to start a thread about him, about the non-existence of Shatner.


A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 09:48 PM

You're right Rapaire, but it looks like The Troll has once again stirred the pot and started a long thread agaiin, so - must be happy to have 'achieved goal' again...

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 09:45 PM

We have yet to hear from the eminent and imminent philosopher "Shane" McBride on this subject. Or Cletus and the boys. Or the Little Pissant.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 09:45 PM

"I'm not sure that's what you were really asking me, but do I really care? ;-)"

And you think YOU are talking to someone who cares? :-P

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 09:43 PM

"...self-righteous pests with a zeal to convert,..."


                     I would agree. A zeal to convert is a pain in the ass no matter which side of the divide they're on.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 09:39 PM

I'd say that would be whichever woman I happened to fall in love with at any given time in the past. ;-) They tend to attain a godlike stature and power in my daily existence.

I do not, however, demand that others worship them too!

I'm not sure that's what you were really asking me, but do I really care? ;-)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 09:29 PM

So who's YOUR nemises then, LH?

:-)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 09:17 PM

Of course he's present when sex is going on, Foolestroupe! God is supposed to be omnipresent, correct? That means everywhere. Not just somewhere, everywhere.

That almost works with Bob Dylan, but not quite. I distinctly remember one or two situations I was in and Bob wasn't there. It almost works with Shatner too....but again, just short by a whisker.

But here's what I really think about it. People who start provocative, useless threads like this one should be doomed to eternal harassment by people exactly like themselves, but with precisely the opposite outward beliefs! Judgmental, self-righteous pests with a zeal to convert, in other words.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 30 Nov 07 - 08:49 PM

He seems to be present a lot when sex is going on too...