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Original Music That Sounds Traditional?
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Subject: RE: Original Music That Sounds Traditional? From: The Sandman Date: 30 Sep 08 - 06:15 PM snuffy ,visit http://www.dickmiles.com I have a song book the Sailors dream. Jack the Lad , possibly Bosworth field,Home to the Haven,come in to this category. Cyril Tawney,Ewan Maccoll,should be nominated |
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Subject: RE: Original Music That Sounds Traditional? From: Stringsinger Date: 30 Sep 08 - 03:38 PM I nominate Jean Ritchie, Steve Earle, Utah, Woody, Lee and Pete, and other unsung heroes. |
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Subject: RE: Original Music That Sounds Traditional? From: quantock Date: 30 Sep 08 - 03:33 PM Here's the only song I have ever written that I still perform. Several people have told me that it sounds traditional. The story comes from an old Dartmoor legend. There is more information about this at: http://www.legendarydartmoor.co.uk/grey_wethers.htm Grey Wethers ============ To Newton Abbot's market fair Upon a Saturday I chanced to meet a dealer there Who unto me did say Who unto me did say I've two fine flocks of sheep for sale The best grey wethers they be Over the hill beyond the dale On Sittaford Tor you'll see On Sittaford Tor you'll see His price was twenty pounds all told He seemed an honest man I quickly paid with coins of gold And for my horse I ran And for my horse I ran I rode away and hour at least Til up upon a crest There I pulled my noble beast To take a minute's rest To take a minute's rest. Twas then I peered across the vale And those grey wethers found But they moved no more than any snail You see upon the ground You see upon the ground I galloped on to that hillside Amongst the heather and gorse But there were no sheep a-grazing there Just granite rocks of course Just granite rocks of course If you wander over Sittaford Tor Tis true unto this day You'll see fine flocks of granite stones Just like those wethers grey Just like those wethers grey And if you go to the market place To spend a pound or two Be sure to see the goods you but Or you'll be diddled too Or you'll be diddled too Rob Williams. |
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Subject: RE: Original Music That Sounds Traditional? From: Snuffy Date: 29 Sep 08 - 07:38 PM Can you give us an instance of one you've written that sounds English Irish Scots Welsh Traditional? |
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Subject: RE: Original Music That Sounds Traditional? From: The Sandman Date: 29 Sep 08 - 12:45 PM it is easy enough to write music that sounds English Irish Scots Welsh Traditional,just stick to Dorian Ionian mixolydian aeolian modes,try using infrequent modulation. when it comes to lyrics studying the old ballads,helps. many are written in the third person. |
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Subject: RE: Original Music That Sounds Traditional? From: Charley Noble Date: 29 Sep 08 - 10:11 AM Well discussed and well worth refreshing. Charley Noble |
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Subject: RE: Original Music That Sounds Traditional? From: KingBrilliant Date: 01 Mar 00 - 11:36 AM I really like singing songs of a particular style which I suppose would be called traditional. As those are the songs which I tend to sing, then they obviously influence the songs I write (and I can't much help what I write as they tend to emerge when I'm driving or cycling). I don't think that's unreasonable - we write songs for the love of singing them rather than for a target category surely. If you write songs then you are pretty much bound to write songs you will like. I expect there are good & bad, but I don't think there should be an ought and ought-not about it. I think that for a lot of people, the provenance of a song or tune is not as important as the performance you are listening to. If you like it then its a good thing - I don't really believe in absolute values for music, surely its a matter of the moment & the individuals. Kris |
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Subject: RE: Original Music That Sounds Traditional? From: The Shambles Date: 01 Mar 00 - 11:03 AM I suppose I am more interested in making arrows than in finding any targets.So you had better, DUCK!!!! The music did come before the categories, after all.
Yes, it was a lot easier to dig this one up again but I had been thinking about the subject again recently and I did have something new to say. It is also nice to see some new opinions being voiced here.
To my great honour and surprise, I found that I had one of my songs in the DT. I had been posting songs to the forum for sometime, as I found it easier, in some cases, to post my thoughts, contained in a song, than to write them. When I came to gather them together for inclusion in The Mudcat Songbook, I found there were quite a number of these songs.
This is not a criticism of the DT or the selection methods used. I only mention it to demonstrate my feelings, as although I was pleased to see a composition of mine there, if I am honest, I was a little disappointed in the fairly untypical nature of the song that represented my efforts.
It was what I would describe as a 'cod' traditional folksong. Written in a setting and style of the past and as a conscious effort (if genuine) attempt to write a (folk) song about a subject that interested me, life on the inland waterways of Britain. For although I honestly thought that this was probably the best way to treat the subject, it was done, as a fairly academic exercise, to see if I could do it.
I did have some knowledge of the subject but the song is not a first hand account or a scholarly work, just mainly, my imagination and personal view. Not too different to most of the other songs of mine that I had posted. So why then, I ask myself, does that one appear in the DT and not the others? Myself does not answer very clearly.
Do songs like these have any merit or do they exist only because of the curmudgeons and their narrow definitions? Would it have mattered, if I had not claimed authorship but that the song appeared in the DT as traditional? |
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Subject: RE: Original Music That Sounds Traditional? From: GUEST,Martin Ryan Date: 01 Mar 00 - 05:30 AM McGrath Most people are right! The song is traditional - Colum adapted his version from an existing one. While his is by far the most commonly sung, there are others still in circulation. Regards |
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Subject: RE: Original Music That Sounds Traditional? From: GUEST Date: 01 Mar 00 - 05:22 AM |
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Subject: RE: Original Music That Sounds Traditional? From: Bill D Date: 29 Feb 00 - 10:39 PM wow...I had forgotten about this thread!..I sure was eloquent when I was young & energetic last year, huh?...spent an hour composing a post in that NEW thread, when I could simply have been as clever as shambles and refreshed THIS one!....and it does my old heart good to read thru this and actually find a few folk agreeing with some of my abstruse points...(I suspect that 'some' of the difficulty in this discussion is that it IS a lot of work to sort thru the logic...it is easier to just make music you like and then call it 'XXX'...sort of like shooting the arrow and then drawing the bullseye.. ;>).....) |
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Subject: RE: Original Music That Sounds Traditional? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 29 Feb 00 - 09:29 PM "She moved through the fair" was written by Padraic Colum 1881-1972. Here's a link to a page about him The irony is thta, though he was fanous and wrote a lot of good stuff, the piece that's most well known is this, and most people think it's traditional. Well, it is now, anyway.
They're good verses Peg - but myself I feel the story gains by being pared to the bone. In fact when I sing it, I leave out the verse about the people and the sorrow that never was said, because that was how I heard it first from Margaret Barrie, and it seems complete that way. It's a beautiful verse, but says more than needs to be said, to my mind.
And it has always been "dead love" for me. I've seen it printed with the last verse as "young love", so maybe that is how Padraic wrote it. I find it much more powerful with "dead love" - especially with the promise that they are still getting married - in other words, he'll be dead soon enough himself. Too eerie? Well, if someone isn't at ease with eerie is this the right song for them to be singing anyway? Anyway, whether it's sung as "dead" or "young", I think she's died sure enough. |
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Subject: RE: Original Music That Sounds Traditional? From: Peg Date: 29 Feb 00 - 03:44 PM Clinton; I have seen that lyric too and in my opinion the thought of this mysetrious woman dying, as opposed to her merely wandering off and never apearing again based on some obscure "sorrow" makes much more sense...but rarely does anyone sing it with the words "my dead love", maybe too eerie for some. I never thought of the corpse imagery you describe so, uh, eloquently, but instead of the man "seeing" her as a ghost on the astral plane in dreams...which is pretty much the realm of the dead, some believe, or at least a place where we may communicate with them... You are welcome to the lyrics, just don't forget my royalty check...
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Subject: RE: Original Music That Sounds Traditional? From: Clinton Hammond2 Date: 29 Feb 00 - 03:33 PM Peg! Great lyrics! I may have to make off with them when yer not looking! But I once found a set of lyrics for "She Moved..." that claimed to be the original, that had, to start the last verse, the line... How much do you know about that lyric and it authenticity? {~` |
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Subject: RE: Original Music That Sounds Traditional? From: Martin _Ryan Date: 29 Feb 00 - 03:24 PM Some songs, of course, become traditional "despite themselves" i.e. when it is most unlikely that the writer expected/wanted it to happen. I was reminded of this at the weekend when again hearing a great traditional singer called Luke Cheevers (and believe me, they don't come more traditional!)sing Shane McGowans "Sally McEralane" (sp.?)in a perfectly traditional way. The same has happened to "Fairy Tale of New York", incidentally. I'm not knoocking it, BTW - I think it's great when it happens, but it IS exceptional. Regards |
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Subject: RE: Original Music That Sounds Traditional? From: Peg Date: 29 Feb 00 - 02:47 PM gads I have NO IDEA why that posted three times!!! sorry about that (except I don't know what I did...) peg |
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Subject: RE: Original Music That Sounds Traditional? From: Peg Date: 29 Feb 00 - 12:44 PM interesting thread, all... Shambles: thanks for reminding me about The Ascent of Man. A professor of mine in college had our Experimental Theatre class watch the entire series in class...I had forgotten how much it changed my life and wish I could find a copy of it now... When I first heard "Mull of Kintyre" I thought it was a traditional song and asked a friend where i could find the lyrics etc...He told me it was written by Paul McCartney and was the top-selling Beatles' single of all time in the UK...just goes to show. I myself have written some original songs with traditional sounding meolidies and lyrics...and have also added new "traditional" lyrics to songs such as She Moved Through the Faire and Black is the Colour of My True Love's Hair, both songs whose lyrics seemed to me in need of embellishing (the story, in the case of the first, and the emotions, in the case of the second). Composing such lyrics is difficult if one wishes to keep them authentic and appropriate to the song's original version (or versions, as is usually the case). Two extra verses I added to She Moved Through the Faire (which I sometimes use to replace the third verse which begins "The people were saying no two e'er were wed"):
I gave my love a ring of fine silver thread
The frost lies on the field, the snow on the hill
To me, these extra verses expand on the mystery...did she just take off and disappear? To me the final verse always seemed to make this into a ghost story (she come sin quietly at the window as in a dream), so I wanted to embellish that possibility. peg |
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Subject: RE: Original Music That Sounds Traditional? From: Peg Date: 29 Feb 00 - 12:44 PM interesting thread, all... Shambles: thanks for reminding me about The Ascent of Man. A professor of mine in college had our Experimental Theatre class watch the entire series in class...I had forgotten how much it changed my life and wish I could find a copy of it now... When I first heard "Mull of Kintyre" I thought it was a traditional song and asked a friend where i could find the lyrics etc...He told me it was written by Paul McCartney and was the top-selling Beatles' single of all time in the UK...just goes to show. I myself have written some original songs with traditional sounding meolidies and lyrics...and have also added new "traditional" lyrics to songs such as She Moved Through the Faire and Black is the Colour of My True Love's Hair, both songs whose lyrics seemed to me in need of embellishing (the story, in the case of the first, and the emotions, in the case of the second). Composing such lyrics is difficult if one wishes to keep them authentic and appropriate to the song's original version (or versions, as is usually the case). Two extra verses I added to She Moved Through the Faire (which I sometimes use to replace the third verse which begins "The people were saying no two e'er were wed"):
I gave my love a ring of fine silver thread
The frost lies on the field, the snow on the hill
To me, these extra verses expand on the mystery...did she just take off and disappear? To me the final verse always seemed to make this into a ghost story (she come sin quietly at the window as in a dream), so I wanted to embellish that possibility. peg |
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Subject: RE: Original Music That Sounds Traditional? From: Peg Date: 29 Feb 00 - 12:44 PM interesting thread, all... Shambles: thanks for reminding me about The Ascent of Man. A professor of mine in college had our Experimental Theatre class watch the entire series in class...I had forgotten how much it changed my life and wish I could find a copy of it now... When I first heard "Mull of Kintyre" I thought it was a traditional song and asked a friend where i could find the lyrics etc...He told me it was written by Paul McCartney and was the top-selling Beatles' single of all time in the UK...just goes to show. I myself have written some original songs with traditional sounding meolidies and lyrics...and have also added new "traditional" lyrics to songs such as She Moved Through the Faire and Black is the Colour of My True Love's Hair, both songs whose lyrics seemed to me in need of embellishing (the story, in the case of the first, and the emotions, in the case of the second). Composing such lyrics is difficult if one wishes to keep them authentic and appropriate to the song's original version (or versions, as is usually the case). Two extra verses I added to She Moved Through the Faire (which I sometimes use to replace the third verse which begins "The people were saying no two e'er were wed"):
I gave my love a ring of fine silver thread
The frost lies on the field, the snow on the hill
To me, these extra verses expand on the mystery...did she just take off and disappear? To me the final verse always seemed to make this into a ghost story (she come sin quietly at the window as in a dream), so I wanted to embellish that possibility. peg |
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Subject: RE: Original Music That Sounds Traditional? From: Arkie Date: 27 Feb 00 - 01:38 AM Shambles, thanks for resurrecting this thread. This is obviously a subject that gets folk heated up a bit and one that will continue to be thrashed about. My slant on the matter is that the terms "folk" and "traditional" are simply academic labels that are attached to certain music forms to help place them in some historical context. The intent is not to place a "value" by the labeling. The human creature does have a passion for sorting and labeling. Ideally, to place a song or tune in the folk or traditional category should not imply that it is better or worse for that designation. The terms folk and traditional are not synonymous. "Folk" is a broad category that may encompass many traditions. "Tradition" is a specific category relating to a particular community, region, or country, etc. Some things can even be traditional without belonging in the folk category. A person cannot create a "folk song" or a "traditional song" in thirty minutes. Both take time and acceptance to earn their academic label. However, one can certainly create something that resembles a folk or traditional song in a short period of time and if folks like it and it touches a spot in the heart and people keep singing it and passing it on to others, then it is a wonderful thing. The value of this newly created song lies not in the label it bears, but whether or not folks enjoy it.
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Subject: RE: Original Music That Sounds Traditional? From: Amos Date: 27 Feb 00 - 01:00 AM That would be -- if I understand yer meaning -- "Reave On"? -- or something? |
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Subject: RE: Original Music That Sounds Traditional? From: Amos Date: 27 Feb 00 - 01:00 AM That would be -- if I understand yer meaning -- "Reave On"? -- or something? |
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Subject: RE: Original Music That Sounds Traditional? From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 26 Feb 00 - 07:52 AM And they talk about singer songwriters as being obsessed with studying their navels...
(Though navel study shouldn't be disparaged. Ducks can't do it after all, ruddy or otherwise, it's only us placental mammals. And there's lots of people round the folk scene who haven't been able to see their navels in years, including some singer-songwriters I dare say.)
How come we keep on talking about "the tradition". There are all kinds of different traditions, some of them longstanding, some very recent indeed. For convenience we bundle a few of them together and call that "folk", and then argue as to which ones should be included, and what are the common factor linking them.
While a tradition is alive, new stuff can be produced which is part of that tradition. Once it's dead, the songs and the music are still available, but new stuff in the same style aren't part of that tradition, they are part of another distinct modern tradition. So Sea Shanties came frtom a tradition which was involved them having a role as work songs. You can't have new songs which are part of that tradition. If you make a "new sea shanty" it is something else, even if in form it looks and sounds like a sea shanty and it might be a great song.
Just as you can have reproduction furniture, and it can be good furniture, you can have reproduction songs, and they can be good songs. But I don't think it's right to artificially age songs to pretend they are something they are not. The exception I suppose is where for a particular purpose, such as a play, a song is written "in costume" - that is where John Tams and people like Graham Moore come in. And it is easy for songs like that to be taken as taken as traditional. I'd sooner use the term "in the tradition" (meaning in some particular tradition).
But generally the best songs are songs which may draw on traditional elements, but don't dress up. Stan Rogers, for example. I'd say these are songs coming out of the particular tradition, raher than as being in the tradition or traditional.
As for singer-songwriters, introspective or not - I'd call that a currently living tradition in itself, analogous to the french chansonnier tradition. And like any living tradition, some is good, some is not. Over time most of the chaff is blown away, most of what survives is good (and a lot of good stuff is lost as well.) It seems bizarre for people to sneer at the idea of people singing songs they have written , but then, when examples are given of good songs being sung well by the people who write them, to turn around and say "no,they aren't singer-songwriters". If course they are, they just happen to be good singer songwriters. (Not a term I would ever use myself.)
As for "Rave On" - would it be more acceptable if it were sung "Rove On"?...
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Subject: RE: Original Music That Sounds Traditional? From: Graham Pirt Date: 20 May 99 - 07:15 PM I've just returned from a concert with Chris Wood, Andy Cutting, Karen Tweed and Ian Carr. They played a set of English dance tunes which Chris introduced as, "..some from then and some from now" It really does cloud the issue as soon as we start attaching words like 'folk' and 'traditional'. I'm friendly with some shepherds from Northumberland who play tunes - some that they've written and some that they haven't. I don't recall them ever calling one of the tunes folk or traditional. |
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Subject: RE: Original Music That Sounds Traditional? From: Bert Date: 20 May 99 - 11:11 AM OK Shambles, you said "We haven't had much conversation about ducks recently" Well seeing your last post you'd better 'duck' Bert. (Where's Elsie when we need her?) |
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Subject: RE: Original Music That Sounds Traditional? From: The Shambles Date: 20 May 99 - 10:32 AM What is folk? *Smiles* |
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Subject: RE: Original Music That Sounds Traditional? From: Richard Bridge Date: 20 May 99 - 08:41 AM This thread is being confused by use of an undefined term "traditional". Let's stick to "folk". That is music and song handed down and modified by the oral tradition (which precludes acknowledgment of authorship). Apply that and everything gets a lot clearer. The fact that traditional-sounding stuff is not folk does not make it worse (or better). It merely means it is not folk. Another approach might be to define "traditional". Interesting things definitions. If you assert that the need for the oral tradition precludes songs first published in written form from ever being folk song the "the Cutty (or Cuddy - but not Ruddy) Wren" (1342, I think) is not a folk song. But it must surely be traditional. I am told that "Darcy Farrow" is modern. But many think it sounds like American traditional. |
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Subject: RE: Original Music That Sounds Traditional? From: Ian Date: 20 May 99 - 07:48 AM The whole idea of what's traditional fascinates me. I've been very interested in the contributions here, but none of them touch on what I have come to think of as traditional. There are two criteria. 1. That in general nobody claims it. It's fine to write something and be capable of being identified as the author. What I mean is that nobody is going to sue you for singing it or for getting the words "wrong". 2. That somebody, not the author, felt it worthwhile learning - generally orally - to sing other than for profit (rules out recorded covers of Beatles hits). This suggests two unusual traditional songs which you might wish to comment on or add to. One is "Norwegian Wood" as sung in our folk session. We don't do it like The Beatles and, though the words are much the same, the stresses are markedly different. The other is "Delilah", song in some very interesting modal keys by people leaving one of our (three) village pubs at around midnight. Would I be willing to die to include these in the traditional corpus? - depends. Ian
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Subject: RE: Original Music That Sounds Traditional? From: Liam's Brother Date: 19 May 99 - 11:12 PM I've heard many fine songs when in Ireland that I've thought might be traditional and the reason is that the people whom (I later found out) wrote them are themselves part of the tradition. These are "unknown people" writing about their surroundings. They are people having much more familiarity with traditional song than popular song. That's the difference to my mind.
All the best,
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Subject: RE: Original Music That Sounds Traditional? From: Joe Offer Date: 19 May 99 - 09:37 PM I went to a Tom Russell concert here in Denver Saturday night - now, there's a songwriter whose work sounds a hundred years old the moment he writes it. the first half of the concert was a selection of songs from his new album, The Man from God Knows where. Good stuff. I especially like his cowboy songs. Tom russel sang one song, "Orphan Train," by David Massengill, another songwriter with a very traditional sound to many of his songs. Massengill wrote another song that is often attributed to "traditional" - I think it's called "Fairfax County." Baez and the Roches recorded it a while back. Massengill said he didn't get any money out of the Baez recording, but I got the impression he may have been joking about that. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Original Music That Sounds Traditional? From: The Shambles Date: 19 May 99 - 07:14 PM Refresh. We haven't had much conversation about ducks recently. I kind of miss it. |
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Subject: RE: Original Music That Sounds Traditional? From: Pete M Date: 14 Feb 99 - 05:50 PM Shambles, please don't apologise, this is one of the most entertaining and thought provoking threads for some time, and that ,as I write it, seems to me to answer, or at least point to an answer to your question about singer/songwriters, their songs are rarely either entertaining or thought provoking. Singer/songwriter has, I believe, become a self defining category, there are a whole raft of people, some of great talent, who write and perform their own work, but who we would never dream of putting in the s/s basket; Paxton, McTell, MacColl & Guthrie, for example. As Bert has said, s/s's are often so omphalistic and/or narcissistic that they fail to meet the basic purpose of a performance, ie to entertain, but fail to recognise their failure. Some of course become hugely successful commercially despite these traits, but then so is MacDonalds! On the taxonomical side of things, I think you are missing Bill's point about exclusion. It is quite possible to define a condition, which in practice, can only be said with any degree of certainty to exist by excluding all other possibilities. Medicine is a prime field for this kind of exercise. I am not a great fan of reductionism; but it is undoubtedly a useful tool in the right place, also the category we put something in will depend on our own world view as much as anything, and that inevitably changes with time, so yes, I believe that a structured taxonomy for "folk" music is of great help to most people most of the time, but that does not imply that the categories are or should be rigid. I would suggest that more understanding arises from discussions about the fuzzy overlaps than anything else. The issue of categories in Music shops is I think, a red herring, those categories are defined not to differentiate on any basis meaningful within the field, merely to maximise sales by often intentionally misleading. Yes I think there is a mystique or magic which a song acquires, like a patina, with absorption into the folk process, for me it has nothing to do with age per se although a certain amount of time needs to have passed for it to occur; it may ultimately be indefinable except at an emotional level, but its real for all that. I also remember the Ascent of Man, and agree totally about the danger of people who are absolutely certain they are right. Can't think of any Duck angles though! Pete M |
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Subject: RE: Original Music That Sounds Traditional? From: Bill D Date: 12 Feb 99 - 05:50 PM yes, shambles, I suspect it is a bit like your 'magic'...traditional is something I can sort of describe(and I am working slowly on list of conditions and categories to explicate it all...), but is very much just 'feeling'...if you watch a classsic production of Shakespeare, and then watch a re-done 'modern' version with current slang and 'mod' costumes, you may have some idea what it is like...it just ain't what I am used to, and I never DID see the reason for gratuitous experimenting!. There no law against it, just label it clearly so I don't waste my money needlessly... ( I often wonder why I keep chewing at the problem...but I do think that this exchange of ideas really can help us, if not agree with one another, at least understand one anotther better..)
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Subject: RE: Original Music That Sounds Traditional? From: Bert Date: 12 Feb 99 - 11:38 AM Shambles, I think that hostility towards singer/songwriters often arises from the s/songers perception of what is entertainment. I think that a s/s should know what their audience expects (that's their job) and restrain themselves from outpourings of boring descriptions of personal experiences. Jerry, Mathematics has it's fuzzy side. The whole concept derived from separating the concepts aof quatity and number. It doesn't get any fuzzier than that. A Duck story. We had this duck named Lizette and after she recovered from the loss of her drake 'Charlie' to a neighbor's dog, she would flirt outrageously with our rooster. Bert. |
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Subject: RE: Original Music That Sounds Traditional? From: The Shambles Date: 12 Feb 99 - 11:07 AM Well with a lot of help from you all I am beginning to see the light. I can go with the mystique of 'traditional music' as defined by Jerry. Mystique, I would probably define as something that is indefinable and in that sense I can see the attraction of something that belongs to you as much as everyone else and can be attributed to no one person. Even though it might in fact be a myth. But Bill, I can't see if something is so mysterious and by it's nature indefinable, how you can exclude anything from it for certain or why you would want to? Would it be fair to say that a lot of the hostility towards singer-songwriters is due to the sense of exclusion created by the fact, that it is felt that what they produce (especially the introverted songs) cannot ever belong to anyone but the author? The attraction of all music to me is the mystique of it or to use another word magic. I may not be able to define what magic is but when I hear it I know it exists. Is that the same for you with 'traditional'? Out of interest, I have never spoken to any performer of 'traditional' material who truly felt that they were the 'real thing', although others would, with no hesitation describe them as such. Which unfortunately brings us back to ducks. "If a Ring-Necked-Duck is uncertain enough about it's identity to mate with a Tufted Duck, how can we be so sure about what category to put it in", or more importantly, be certain about what category to exclude it from? I can understand the need for us to order the world (and record shops), but we have tried many way to do this throughout history and have constantly had to re-order it, in the light of new information. I suppose I can just live in the world as I find it. The following is a bit heavy and I have moved away from music I know, but it will I hope, show you why I persist in addressing some of the issues mentioned here. I don't expect you to agree with all the points I have made or their relevance here but I hope you can understand and excuse the depth of my feelings. There was a BBC TV series in the 70s called The Ascent Of Man, presented by Dr Jacob Bronowski. In which there was one moment from it that I hope I will never forget. He was in Auschwitz, and standing in a muddy pond where the ashes of 4 million people were flushed. He held the mud in his hands as he quoted these words by Oliver Cromwell. "I beseech you, in the bowels of Christ, think it possible you may be mistaken". |
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Subject: RE: Original Music That Sounds Traditional? From: Jerry Friedman Date: 11 Feb 99 - 09:49 PM Susanne, according to the well-organized discography at the Joan Baez Web Pages, "The Night They Drove Old Dixie Down" has appeared on a lot of her albums, mostly greatest-hits collections. The first album it appeared on was Blessed Are... (1971). The song is credited to J. R. Robertson, who of course is Robbie. Barbara, I think the split between lumpers and splitters is universal in taxonomy. Shambles, what Bill D. implied is right: I'm way out of my philosophical depth here. But... fuzzy edges make you doubt categories, but categories are still useful (essential?), and some ways of binning things may be more useful than others. Katmuse mentioned what quacks like a duck, etc., and you were the one who brought up ruddy ducks (and then I dragged in the Aythyini). Pete M., whoever made up that definition had never owned an entire male dog (or even a rabbit). |
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Subject: RE: Original Music That Sounds Traditional? From: Barbara Date: 10 Feb 99 - 11:58 PM In re categories, Bill, my favorite mycological taxonomist (David Arora) sorts out his colleagues into two categories: "lumpers" and "splitters". Seems like we have a similar situation here. Blessings, Barbara |
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Subject: RE: Original Music That Sounds Traditional? From: Bill D Date: 10 Feb 99 - 08:55 PM *grin*...Pete...funny you should mention it..many years ago,(27-30) in Wichita,Kansas, a police patrol noticed a car on a side street, (cold day, windows frosted over)..and the car was shaking...the police stopped and investigated, and heard strange, loud noises coming from the interior. They somehow managed to open the car, or convince the guy inside to open it, and found him in flagrante delecto with a duck he had stolen from the local zoo! Feathers everywhere! ....and it just so happens that a close friend of mine worked at that zoo, and was one of the keepers of that poor duck..(he carried a newspaper clipping of the incident around for years!)..Not only that-- he and another friend wrote a parody of Roger Miller's "Chug-a-Lug"..."**** a Duck".......so, the folk process goes on, using life as its model.... (and Shambles....there are violent arguments in Philosophy between the Metaphysicans who LIKE categories, and the 'Ordinary Language' philosophers, who do not........and I guess that's what it comes down to- I like 'em, you don't...but if you should ever open a record store, I doubt I should be able to shop there if you did not separate the Gregorian Chant from the Bluegrass....it just happens that 'traditional' does mean something to a lot of people. Even though it may not be an 'exact' definition, it CAN at least exclude some things.) |
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Subject: RE: Original Music That Sounds Traditional? From: Pete M Date: 10 Feb 99 - 08:04 PM Talking about the mating habits of Tufted ducks, I once heard Human beings defined as the only species that will fornicate with anything that will keep still long enough. Pete M |
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Subject: RE: Original Music That Sounds Traditional? From: The Shambles Date: 10 Feb 99 - 07:02 PM Jerry Who started with these 'Ruddy Ducks' anyway? I think that in time mathematics will be shown to have fuzzy boundaries too. It depends on what measure of time you use. In the span of human life-times you could say that mathematics are certain and non fuzzy. In the time that the universe exists, mathematics may not in fact, turn out to be so certain. In human life-times you may be sure what constitutes a Ring-Necked Duck, because you see it frozen in the form that it is in at that moment. In evolutionary time it is in the process of constant change, just happening too slowly for us to see. If your only experience of a horse, was a still photograph of one galloping, showing that all four feet were off the ground, would you be certain that it was a flying animal? If a Ring-Necked-Duck is uncertain enough about it's identity to mate with a Tufted Duck, how can we be so sure about what category to put it in? In natural history we know that the species definition is imperfect but we carry on because it is safer to think that way. You say "most of the time you know which one you are looking at" but it is surely those exceptions that should be teaching us caution? The only thing I know for certain is that I know 'bugger all' for certain. To bring us back to music, I didn't say all categories are useless, what I said was, I personally think that traditional is a nonsense word when applied to music (as are most of the labels and categories used to describe it). For music is only really created in the present and there is only one music, but I only listen and create it, I don't get paid to write or talk about it, so one big category is enough for me. I have ticked off Ring-Necked-Duck in the UK (I think?). I also think I've ticked off a few Mudcatter's too? *smiles* |
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Subject: RE: Original Music That Sounds Traditional? From: Margo Date: 10 Feb 99 - 03:20 PM Hi Jerry. It's no secret. The Scots poet is Robert Louis Stevenson. The poems I liked so well as a child are in "A Child's Garden of Verses". You can find the volume easily at the bookstore. Of course he's known better as the author as such novels as "Kidnapped" and "Treasure Island". But his poems give such a tender portrayal of the wonders of the child's world. It is my hope to record my RLS songs along with some traditional children's music from Scotland and that area. It should be fun. Margarita |
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Subject: RE: Original Music That Sounds Traditional? From: Jerry Friedman Date: 10 Feb 99 - 12:11 AM Bobby Bob, "chuffed to little mint balls"--I'm ROTFL! Margarita, who's the secret Scots poet? Shambles, outside of mathematics, every category has fuzzy boundaries, as Pete M. so rightly remarked about "purist". That doesn't mean every category is useless. Tufted ducks may hybridize with ring-necked ducks, but MOST of the time you know which one you're looking at. (I'd love to look at a tufted duck some day--a great tick for an American twitcher. And they eat zebra mussels.) Dick's comment about traditions, and something several people have said about every song having an author, bring up a point I'd like to make. There's a theory that folk songs are the work of many hands. Maybe somebody wrote the original version, but since then it's been folk-processed. Thus in a sense it's the work of the people, the folk, as a whole. [*] To some folkies, this quality has a certain mystique. Such a song is not and never was any kind of individual property; it arises from and belongs to a tradition. The version(s) we have came from no commercial or motive and no pose; most of what brought them to being was people making the song the best they could and remembering the best they could, in the way that was natural to them. I believe this, not what Dick said, is the usual meaning of the word "traditional". I see nothing wrong with responding to this mystique. I don't myself; I don't enjoy "Die Loreley" any more when it's credited to Silcher than when it's called a folk song. But is this part of what the people who like the "traditional" category are responding to? [*] Of course, Tom Lehrer had the last word on this (in his intro to "The Folksong Army), as he did on so many things. Is this the first footnote in the Mudcat? |
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Subject: RE: Original Music That Sounds Traditional? From: The Shambles Date: 09 Feb 99 - 12:34 PM Joe I think Frank in NJ was agreeing with me. Oh well maybe not, I suppose you win. Frank Have you ever heard the version of Rave On by Steeleye Span? I've no idea what record/cd it is on, maybe someone could tell us?. If you ever do hear it let us know if you think it a parody of both styles? I think it adds to both but then again I have a 'Cornish' keyboard, so what do I know? |
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Subject: RE: Original Music That Sounds Traditional? From: skw@worldmusic.de Date: 08 Feb 99 - 11:46 AM Still - who DID write 'Old Dixie'? My database comes up with the name Robbie Robertson and three fat question marks! And - on which album / which year did Joan Baez record the song? - Now I'll go home and read the rest of this thread, having lost five days. - Susanne
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Subject: RE: Original Music That Sounds Traditional? From: AnWeaver13 (inactive) Date: 08 Feb 99 - 04:08 AM And there's always Kinship (a celtic-style BC Band who write a lot of pseudo-folk songs) and the incomparable guy who's name escapes me who wrote Queen of All Argyle and Ramblin Rover. |
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Subject: RE: Original Music That Sounds Traditional? From: Joe Offer Date: 08 Feb 99 - 02:28 AM Well, Frank, I really enjoyed your response. I think what you said means that you agree with me - an attempt to sing "Peggy Sue" or "Rave On" in a traditional style comes off as a parody of both the song and the style - it's not a good fit, even though it may be fun to try it. -Joe Offer- |
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Subject: RE: Original Music That Sounds Traditional? From: Frank in NJ Date: 08 Feb 99 - 02:11 AM I would be so ever enchanted to take on the suggestion of Joe Offer, with the chore of making "Rave On" or "Peggy Sue" sound circa 1800's. But I know I'm beat there Joe! These songs, as do most modern songs, present a special difficulty with their lack of range or choice of notes present. Most modern songs sound like short cuts to me, in that the notation choices are very lazy. Just the musical notation within the introduction of an 1800's song before one even gets to the song proper, sports a melody and harmony line inclusive enough to make enough modern songs to uphold a modern artists entire career. Peggy Sue being an excellent example, sports so few notes that the choice of harmonic notes available severly restricts the possibility of a "traditional" sound. The old songs seem to me to be each to its own ethnic backround, and of yet a previous century. Each time people come together as during a war, their individual song styles become a little more homogenized. Just take note of the large influx of styles that came together during recent wars, The Spanish American and WW1 especially. Notice the results in the early or late blendings of two very different American music styles with root origins of the British Isles, as one flourished in the Eastern Mountains with the Native American syncopation and the other in the flatlands with the African American. The results are vastly different in many ways, yet were at one time the same tunes/songs. Likewise what is "traditional" Cajun Music? Not only were the old French tunes "refreshed" by the introduction (70 years ago)of the German accordian syncopation, they also became as a result limited to less than an octive and choice of only two keys. I have only the knowledge of how the old tunes were done from cylinders of the 1880's to 1905. The "Parlor Era". The revelation of hearing these recordings and some of the one sided 78rpm discs that replaced them as opposed to the sheet music interpretations is enlighting. Songs such as "Lorina" or "The Green Fields of Virginia" even with their simple folk style are masterpiece examples of their times. Audiences who have never heard the old "traditional" music are stricken by their beauty. Give me another chance Joe? I cry "stonzies"! |
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Subject: RE: Original Music That Sounds Traditional? From: The Shambles Date: 07 Feb 99 - 07:15 PM I couldn't seem to be able to start a new thread, just seeing if I dig up an old one. |
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Subject: RE: Original Music That Sounds Traditional? From: Pete M Date: 02 Feb 99 - 08:42 PM Hi Shambles me old mucker, now that's a cunning way to start of version 967 of the "what is folk" thread! ;-) Actually I've tried to take my time before contributing as it is clearly a subject which deserves a thoughtful response, and as usual if I wait most of the things I would have liked to have said have been said already. So, rather than opting for a "me too" I'll try and address each of your original questions in turn; always bearing in mind that phrases like "a good thing" have never been the same since Sellars and Yeatman!
1 Is it a good thing that songs can be written in a style that could be mistaken for a traditional song? "Traditional" folk music, like most things which are currently unfashionable (eg hierarchical management structures) have survived for thousands of years because they work within the situations for which they were created or from which they evolved.
2 Is it a good idea for new writers to consciously try and write songs in this style? Probably the hardest to answer as it "all depends". For people like MacColl and Tawney, it works, and it is hard to imagine them writing in ant other style, for others it doesn't work, and for still others it should not even be considered. I think if you are steeped in the tradition within which you are writing and the subject matter, your natural style of writing and your tune fit, then there is a good chance of it working. 3 Is it the only way that some people will actually be prepared to listen to original material? I think you had your tongue firmly in cheek with that one mate! I'm sure, as I suspect you are, that the only people most to get steamed up over current songs written in traditional style are those who have a narrow definition of "traditional folk" which includes "more than x years old", and who think that nothing else is worthwhile. I don't think any of us including the curmudgeonly twins (Bill D and me (hope you don't mind Bill)) dislike new songs in any style (except for new age !@#$ navel gazers) We might get excited if someone tries to pass them of as traditional, but we would welcome songs which, if they stand the test of time, will become a valid and necessary contribution to the continuance of the corpus of "traditional" songs. 4 If the original songs in this style can be so easily mistaken for the "real thing" does this not make some of the purist's views somewhat invalid, in a musical sense if not a scholarly one? Nah! Firstly I don't believe there is such thing as "purist" category into which we can all be fitted or we wouldn't be having this conversation. Fortunately or unfortunately, we humans love taxonomical quibbling and there is constant changes in what is "in" or "out" of classifications in all fields. Also I think you, and the "if it sounds like a duck" argument are missing the point of this particular category. To stretch the analogy, a duck may answer a duck call, in other words the hunter sounds like a duck to a duck, but he doesn't pass the Turing test, a duck can't get meaningful responses from him. Similarly a song may be identical to a "traditional" song in subject matter, style, music and the use of language, but that is not the only criteria which is relevant. To me it is like eating with a peg on your nose, its Ok and fills you up, but there is not the same enjoyment. Again, I would stress there is no implication that the new song is of any less worth, just that it is not (yet) "traditional". I think that at the root there may be a confusion that "traditional" implies static. Clearly, folk music has and is growing and evolving, some songs which could now be considered "traditional" were not written when Sharp was collecting and some which were sung and popular then have been quietly forgotten as not belonging in "our" bucket. Oh well, time for a work break. Lets try out Mike's changes and see if this posts OK Pete M |
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Subject: RE: Original Music That Sounds Traditional? From: Art Thieme Date: 02 Feb 99 - 08:06 PM a challenge to all: Write a song to be titled: "THE MORE THINGS CHANGE, THE MORE THEY GET DIFFERENT" |
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