BS: The Pope: Non-obit thread

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope: Non-obit thread
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 01:53 PM

Different Pope, Kendall

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope: Non-obit thread
From: GUEST,Scaramouche
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 01:51 PM

So what would you do?

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope: Non-obit thread
From: kendall
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 01:50 PM

Joe, I have written to Mr. Carter; if he answeres, I'll post it.

And where was the Pope when Mussolini invaded Ethiopia?

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope: Non-obit thread
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 01:48 PM

Because the Armenians were the ones being massacred

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope: Non-obit thread
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 01:15 PM

Actually Scaramouche, would you please provide us all with some evidence of what saintly acts JPII performed to end these sorts of gruesome and devastating human conflicts?

Besides his less than admirable position of non-violence and political appeasement in the face of war and genocide, that is?

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope: Non-obit thread
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 01:09 PM

Oh do tell us all Guest 12:53 PM, why the Armenian genocide is a "red herring" as you call it?

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope: Non-obit thread
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 01:01 PM

No, they don't make the pope a bad person. They make organized religion a bad idea though. And the head of that religion has to shoulder some responsibility.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope: Non-obit thread
From: GUEST,Scaramouche
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 12:58 PM

You haven't answered my question. Anyway do the vile actions of those Rwandan priests make him a bad person? By the same logic the incredible bravery of the priests that did try and stop the killing should reflect on him. In fact the latter are closer to his own past.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope: Non-obit thread
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 12:53 PM

The Armenia bit is a red herring.

Pius XII, Pope during WWII, was as different from John Paul II as night is from day. If you are looking for something to admire, start from his days in the Polish Partisans. He APOLOGISED to Jews and Muslims, not patronising at all.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope: Non-obit thread
From: Pauline L
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 11:46 AM

I understand that the Catholic Church is opposed to killing, and that includes war, abortion, and capital punishment, a mixed bag IMO. I also remember reading that the Pope at the time of the Holocaust remained silent about it. I'm still looking for something about John Paul II as a specific Pope that I can admire. He may have expressed sympathy with the poor people of the world, but did he advocate or do anything specific to help them? Talk is cheap. I admire the activism of the Pope who brought about Vatican II. That had a noticeable effect on dissolving barriers between peoples. I know that JP II forgave Jews and Muslims, but that is such a condescending act from "God's best religion."

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope: Non-obit thread
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 11:33 AM

Good on ya there, Guest 11:22 AM!

Also Scaramouche, there is that pesky little detail about Rwandan priest Father Wenceslas Munyeshyaka becoming the first priest convicted of genocide by an international war crimes tribunal.

Oops! I guess we forgot about how the Roman Catholic church in Rwanda participated in the genocide, and failed to stop the slaughter where it could have. Predictably, the official Vatican line is that only individual priests, not the church as a whole in Rwanda, can be held accountable for the genocide. It's the familiar "just a few bad apples" excuse.

However, in a meticulously reported series of articles on the aftermath of the Rwanda genocide of 1994, Newsday foreign editor Dele Olojede spares no one-including Rwanda 's dominant Roman Catholic Church. During the 1994 murders, approximately 800,000 members of the Tutsi tribe were exterminated by the Hutus. "Some of the worst massacres," Olojede reported "occcured right inside churches and parish compounds, many with the active collaboration of [Hutu] priests." Olojede also notes that other priests risked their own lives in order to save the lives of Tutsi and were often massacred with their parishioners. But, he notes, "many more become footsoldiers in the extermination campaign or passively accepted its inevitability."

Rwanda Archbishop Thaddee Ntihinyurwa declared, "Many have asked, how can a Christian country do this? My answer is that you can't talk only about Rwanda…the first genocides happened in Christian countries also, like Germany and Armenia."

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope: Non-obit thread
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 11:22 AM

He should have walked with the kids trying to get to Holy Cross school everyday.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope: Non-obit thread
From: GUEST,Scaramouche
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 11:16 AM

Ok, guest, what would you have done?

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope: Non-obit thread
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 08:10 AM

The pope wasn't exactly the brightest bulb in the box when it came to conflict resolution in places like Ireland, the Balkans, Rwanda, etc.

Hell, the pope couldn't even be bothered to go to the north and visit Armagh when he visited. What might that have done for the joke we call "the Northern Irish peace process" hmmmmmm?

The pope simply mouthed the same blanket condemnations of the IRA we've heard from 10 Downing and Westminster for decades when it came to Northern Ireland. And we can see how well that strategy has worked out.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope: Non-obit thread
From: RichM
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 08:05 AM

Dear Guest: What a maroon!

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope: Non-obit thread
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 06:02 AM

Spoken like a true political know nothing Joe.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope: Non-obit thread
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 04:57 AM

Well, I dunno. Seeing as the Pope is Catholic and the IRA are Catholic, it seems to make sense for him to admonish his own side first, if they're doing wrong. It wouldn't do a whole heck of a lot of good for the Pope to admonish Irish Protestants, and it would be seen as supporting the wrongdoing of the Catholic side.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope: Non-obit thread
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 02:44 AM

Think what you will of Bush, being president he still has to attend.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope: Non-obit thread
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 10:42 PM

And as to the pope admonishing the IRA to stop the violence: excuse me, but it is idiotic to admonish only one side for being violent in a war, isn't it? But I hear that Ireland may have had the final word. According to some right wing pundits I saw on tv today, Ireland DARED not to declare the day of the pope's funeral a national day of mourning, like Poland did.

The audacity!

Erin go bragh.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope: Non-obit thread
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 10:40 PM

mary I think you may have misunderstood. The "five person delegation" just refers to the presidents & secretary of state. The spouses of the political invitees aren't counted in the five.

But you are correct, Dr. Rice should not have been on the delegation, and Carter certainly should have. Andrew Card reneged on the invitation to Carter, not once but twice, apparently. And that is just downright sleazy.

No surprise that Jimmy Carter is being a gracious gentleman about it though.

I also understand that Andrew Card wormed his way into the president's delegation, being a "sixth wheel". What a pig.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope: Non-obit thread
From: mg
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 09:14 PM

I think the one to step aside should have been Mrs. Bush rather than Dr. Rice. mg

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope: Non-obit thread
From: Ebbie
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 08:58 PM

I had read that Carter had declined because there "were other people who really wanted to attend." The official invitation to the funeral was for a 5-member presidential delegation. That did and should have included President Carter. Instead, the five-person party consisted of President Bush, his wife, Laura, former president Bill Clinton, former president G.H.W. Bush and Condoleeza Rice, the Secretary of State. They said that Gerald Ford at age 90 is too frail for such a trip. But why Rice??? A second delegation from the US government also attended- it seems that there is where Rice fit. I'm with Kendall- it infuriates me. Carter was MUCH more of like mind and respect with John Paul II than the bush ever thought of being.

The Washington Post


"The reason has touched off a classic Washington imbroglio fueled by suspicion, animosity and distrust, one that has reopened a rift between the camps of the former president and the current one. When Carter was left off the delegation list assembled by President Bush's White House, Democrats assumed he was snubbed. The Bush The Bush team is angry at what it considers an unfair smear."


"According to people on both sides most familiar with the discussions, the episode grew out of a sequence of telephone calls during a fluid two days that evidently left room for misunderstanding. White House Chief of Staff Andrew H. Card Jr. called Carter at least twice to invite him to join the delegation. Carter initially accepted, but when Card called back and reported that others were interested in joining a delegation limited to five members, the former president withdrew." (Why did Card make that call? What other response would have he expected from Jimmy Carter? Eb)

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope: Non-obit thread
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 08:18 PM

Hi, Pauline - this Google search (click) will bring up a number of articles about John Paul II and his oopposition to the Iraq War, and to war in general. This article covers the subject well, and this one says he spoke against the previous Gulf War 56 times. This AP article is current, and discusses the relationship between the Pope and U.S. Presidents.

I may have disagreed with John Paul II about a number of things, but not on his positions on social justice issues. He opposed capital punishment, nuclear weapons, and most warfare. He also showed a great deal of concern for the poor of the world.

This article says that early as 1979, John Paul II call for the IRA to end its cycle of violence in Ireland - and so-called Catholics of the IRA issued a statement in defiance of his plea.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope: Non-obit thread
From: Pauline L
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 04:41 PM

I've read that the Pope promoted social justice, but I'm not aware of any specifics, other than his opposition to Communist governments and capital punishment. Joe Offer said, "John Paul II strongly and repeatedly opposed George Bush and the United States and their war in Iraq." I missed that one, too. Joe, can you give me some details?

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope: Non-obit thread
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 04:23 PM

Before we go condemning Bush for excluding Jimmy Carter from the funeral delegation, I'd like to hear what happened. If we don't hear any complaint from Carter and don't have solid information about an intentional snub, then I think it's best to assume there's no issue.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope: Non-obit thread
From: kendall
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 02:47 PM

He has had to guts to oppose bush in some things. Remember how they got even with Dan Rather? He had the balls to ask hard questions too.The Emperor has no clothes, or brains.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope: Non-obit thread
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 10:18 AM

kendall, I was asking why Carter wasn't part of the presidential delegation early last week, when it was announced and Carter wasn't on the list.

What's the deal?

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope: Non-obit thread
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 09:42 AM

On the radio a few days ago they talked to an 85 year old man who was classmates with the late Pope. He said everyone would copy from him in class!

I do think the Pope was a good man who stood by his convictions and tried to better the lot of his people and promote Christ.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope: Non-obit thread
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 09:19 AM

Don't see why his banning women from the priesthood makes him a reactionary or even a bad person.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope: Non-obit thread
From: kendall
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 08:02 AM

Is anyone besides me furious at bush for his treatment of PRESIDENT CARTER?

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope: Non-obit thread
From: Wolfgang
Date: 08 Apr 05 - 12:38 PM

Speaking about conspiracy theories we've heard after the death of this pope:

The US government has started the campaign against pedophilia in the Catholic church in order to weaken the pope as a punishment for his stance against the war in Iraq.

The Green deputy speaker of the German parliament was it in a talk show, but she's know for very weird beliefs.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope: Non-obit thread
From: wysiwyg
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 08:37 PM

Hey, I get it! A non-obit means he didn't die? :~) Works for me!

~S~

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope: Non-obit thread
From: jaze
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 06:58 PM

According to a prophecy I read recently, only two more popes to go. A peace-loving pope next, and then another named Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope: Non-obit thread
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 04:45 PM

Brown shoes? Guest convinced some of us that he had a shoe collection somewhat comparable to Imelda. It was news to me and I ams till waiting to hear. mg

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope: Non-obit thread
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 04:20 PM

Well, Donuel, many people thought John XXIII was more than just a "decent pope." He was pope from 1958 to 1963, and there were others before him who were pretty good people, too. John Paul I was elected in 1978, and I believe it was only 30 days or so after his election that he died. I'm sure there are conspiracy theorists who are certain that John Paul I was poisoned by people directed by John Paul II, a Pole who was outside the Vatican political structure, who was then elected by a 2/3 vote of all the cardinals from all over the world. I suppose all those cardinals were also involved in the conspiracy, huh?

You know, this really sounds like total, unmitigated bullshit. If it isn't that, then it must be the anti-Catholic bigotry the Ku Klux Klan was so famous for in the 1920's. Donuel, you should be ashamed of yourself for perpetuating such garbage.


Somebody above condemned John Paul II for not mentioning capital punishment when George W. Bush visited the Vatican. Bush wasn't in much of a position to affect the death penalty one way or another at the time, but it is patently unfair to imply that John Paul II supported the death penalty. He repeatedly stated that there is no justification whatsoever for capital punishment, except in a very few situations where the condemned person poses a grave threat to society (such as, perhaps, an Osama bin Laden or somebody whose followers might kill thousands to free an imprisoned leader). But the Pope said that even that one exception was well-nigh inconceivable in modern society. It's about as close to a complete condemnation of the death penalty as anybody could make. Conservative Catholics don't talk much about the Catholic Church's opposition to the death penalty because it makes them very uneasy, but it's official church doctrine that capital punishment is immoral.

It is a blatant falsehood to imply that John Paul II supported or even tolerated capital punishment.

I also want to emphasize that John Paul II strongly and repeatedly opposed George Bush and the United States and their war in Iraq. He also opposed the Likud government of Israel in its treatment of Palestinians, and he opposed Ferdinand Marcos in the Philippines long before the United States did.

No, he didn't singlehandedly ride to Poland on a white horse and save his country and the world from godless Communism, but he certainly was a major factor in the fall of the Warsaw Pact.

Yes, I do wish John Paul II had been less conservative in internal church matters, and I strongly opposed him on many matters. Nonetheless, I firmly believe that he did very well in promoting social justice and humanitarism. In almost every instance, he sided with the poor and the oppressed. Maybe he wasn't completely right every single time, but he did his best. He may have been anti-Communist to the point where he was blind to the good aspects of Communism, but he was just as strongly opposed to capitalist imperialism.

Yes, I wish that John Paul II had done more to promote the equality of women. He actually did much to promote the dignity and rights of women, although he failed to put women in leadership positions in the Catholic Church. However, it shold be remembered that there are tens of millions of Catholics, particularly in Africa, Latin America, and Asia, who are not ready to accept the equality of women. How do you deal with that in a worldwide church? I have to say I don't know.

So, what's the bit about the shoes? As far as I can tell, John Paul II made some people uncomfortable because he alway wore plain, ugly, brown shoes. Maybe he should be condemned to hell for having no fashion sense.

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope: Non-obit thread
From: Once Famous
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 03:36 PM

Pedophile problem AND cult style homosexual activity.

For sure the latter, probably for centuries.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope: Non-obit thread
From: Wesley S
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 03:24 PM

I guess we just have to accept all of the evidence of the Pope's murder on ---- faith.

It's a dirty word I know.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope: Non-obit thread
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 03:03 PM

I was trying to say that the pedophile problem is much more intrinsic to the church than people who are already inclined that way becoming priests to have access and/or cover. mg

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope: Non-obit thread
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 03:02 PM

I would want to know more about the death of John Paul I. It is truly mysterious. I have never heard of this pope being implicated in his murder. Please elaborate. mg

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope: Non-obit thread
From: wysiwyg
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 02:59 PM

Say, does anyone remember how we all got along in life before everything had to be a conspiracy-theory argument?

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope: Non-obit thread
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 02:42 PM

Pope John Paul II personal notes.

Opps, they've been burned...case closed.

One thing for sure...
Whatever happened when there were 3 Popes in one year will not be revisited by the Vatican - ever.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope: Non-obit thread
From: Wesley S
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 02:08 PM

Donuel - Can you provide any links to some facts in the case or should we just take your word for it ?

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope: Non-obit thread
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 02:00 PM

I'm not being silly, I'm being reactive and confrontational ;)

The Church had one decent Pope during the 20th century. A vibrant, healthy man, who had been an outstanding priest, he seemed about to actually do some good.

Then, a few months after being elected, they poisoned him. An autopsy was refused and he was embalmed within hours of his death.

There is no doubt that the man who died yesterday knew all about this and may very well have been involved in the murder.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope: Non-obit thread
From: wysiwyg
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 01:52 PM

Donuel, now you're being silly!

A better statement might be, "Victims can find more powerful, non-victim ways to respond to mistreatment than hatred."

To conclude that someone once victiminzed remains forever in the victim role is to deny the power inherent in seeing oneself as a survivor with unlimited choice to apply in one's future.

Anyone overcoming anything knows that!

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope: Non-obit thread
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 01:46 PM

Returning hatred for wrongs done cripples the hater, and does little to change the hated.
~Susan




There you have it. Victims should not only avoid being reactive, they should like what happens to them.

Its nice to have it both ways when you are in power.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope: Non-obit thread
From: wysiwyg
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 01:33 PM

mg, that's a pretty extreme simplification of a much more complex picture. It's not necessary to reduce an issue that far in order to deplore wrongs that have been done; addressing the wrongs almost always requires seeing and addressing increased complexities, not reducing them to what can only be dealt with reactively.

Returning hatred for wrongs done cripples the hater, and does little to change the hated.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope: Non-obit thread
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 01:23 PM

I am sure he wrote in dear diary that he murdered the preceeding pope.

And it is more a matter of Catholicism as it has been rendered in my lifetime producing pedophiles than random pedophiles joining the church..both are probably going on but they are produced. By a repressive religion and perhaps saintly mothers and don't get me started on Christian brothers... mg

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope: Non-obit thread
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 01:09 PM

CNN reported today that the Vatican claims the former Popes personal notes andpapers were ordered to be burned upon his death.

If he was implicated in the poisoning death of his predecesor, we will never know.

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope: Non-obit thread
From: wysiwyg
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 12:46 PM

The link between celibacy and pedophilia in the priesthood is not about unfilled sexual needs turning deviant. It's about a situation (access to boys) attracting pedophiles to that career. The idea about ending the requirement about celibacy is that married priests are assumed not to be pedophiles. Of course that's not a sound assumption covering any one individual, but statistically it's thought to give a better chance of preventing abuse.

History Channel (US cable) has been running a wonderful series about the papacy today, called "Saints and Sinners." It's pretty good on abuses and excellence of the papacy during certain historical periods, FWIW. It's very interesting looking at the abuses in light of the history and trends of the times.

~Susan

Subject: RE: BS: The Pope: Non-obit thread
From: Once Famous
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 12:28 PM

I wonder if that has happend to all of those guilt ridden Catholic girls I used to date.

I can picture 1 or 2 of them with their own torture rooms now.