Is it Ok to sing from a song book?

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Beer
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 09:48 PM

Correct me if I am wrong, but i am sure i have seen on T.V.when the camera was roaming around on some professional big time band the main singer looking at a karaoke type of screen (on the floor like a monitor that he could see the words to his songs. Damn I wish I could remember the artist.
Adrien

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 09:42 PM

Most people on this thread seem to have at least some tolerance for some memory-aiding devices in a singaround--which is in fact the topic here, not paid performance.

I would also say that there's no problem with most types of assistance.

But, a few observations:

"Is it OK to sing from a book?" is the topic.   That seems to me different than just glancing at a cue card if necessary--or even holding a sheet with the words to your song.   I'd have no problem with somebody holding a sheet with words--as long as he or she did not have to read every word off the sheet.

Also, if you sing from a book, you set the bar very high for yourself. The song will have to flow, it's best if it has a chorus--and you will have to make eye contact with your audience often--or at least make it clear you are not just reading out of the book.   All this can happen--but it's rare.

If you don't sing from a book , I find audiences are far more forgiving on all these points. What counts is not perfection, but that you have made an effort to learn your song before coming to the venue.

As I noted, I think it's fine for folkies (amateurs) to hold a sheet with words--(not reading the words off the page).   In fact as a talisman it may well ward off stage fright just to know the words are there. Even better if the sheet is folded up and you don't look at it--and that can also serve the purpose.

UK folkies, and the original poster is in the UK, have it much better than US folkies--- in tbe UK there is no chance of Rise Up Singing ever appearing at a session.   Every other book or aid is just fine--but RUS is just the kiss of death to a good session.

Reason:   it makes it just too easy to never even bother to learn a song--and too many people take advantage of this feature.   And if there is one, there is likely to be more than one--which kills spontaneity stone dead and virtually always turns the session into a secular hymn sing. If people would not use RUS as a hymnal, it could be useful. But there is zero chance of that.

As Sandy Paton put it in an earlier thread on this topic:   "Use a crutch continuously and the leg you are taking the weight off will eventually weaken." RUS is a crutch--a strong one--and far too tempting for some people. It's great to learn some songs--at home. And that's where it should stay.   Unless you are leading a group of children.

Any other book or aid is much less of a problem.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 08:47 PM

Yeah, but too often, the judgment is made because the singer uses a book - not because of the quality of the singing.
(although I have to admit that the people without books generally are the better singers)
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 07:55 PM

By now we all realize that there is no one answer. I doubt that there is a consensus, so just play it by ear. If you can sing in public without a book, do so. If people leave it's probably because you can't sing.
If you need a book or you are ill prepared, or you suck as a singer people may leave. That should be your cue.
We all sing because we want to if we are at home or in a club. However, if we sing in public we should be singing for others as well as ourselves, and "Fuck 'em" is an attitude that will get you labeled "Persona non grata"

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: mousethief
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 07:49 PM

The important thing, as has been noted above (time to go to the bar) is by our actions and attitudes to make neophytes as uncomfortable as possible, and as turned off from actually making (as opposed to experiencing) folk music as we can. The practical upshot of which, which I am sure we can all agree is the important thing, is that once the current generation of singers dies out, nobody will take their place, having been turned off by judgmental and rude attitudes. The death of live folk music, that's what matters.

That's what I'm hearing.

O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 07:48 PM

Bien dit!

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Artful Codger
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 07:44 PM

Hey, we're talking about a song circle, not a recital or talent show. The important thing is to share SONGS, not set silly performance standards. If "quality" and "presentation" were so important, you'd have to bar half the singers at the outset--including those who "come prepared". I'll tolerate a lot of dross to hear just a handful of interesting songs. An uncommon song sung from a crib is worth ten of the usual suspects sung prettily from memory.

People have vastly different capacities for memorization, so those to whom it comes relatively easy unjustly look down upon those for whom it's a real challenge--even if the latter can sing better than the former! It's not necessarily "laziness"; it may be more a matter of limitation and assurance.

Singing in a group (particularly if you're the newbie) is daunting and distracting enough without such high-flown expectations. It is no insult to me if a person uses a lyrics sheet to give me his best rendering. The sheet may be his way to quell nervousness, avoid probable blanking and keep focused on the music. Most importantly, he's sharing in the way he feels comfortable, and sharing is supposed to be the main purpose of these gatherings.

I don't judge whether a song is worth singing--or whether a person is fit to sing it, or whether they are "honoring" the song--by whether they can reel it off from memory. After all, not every folksinger is a song-circle diva with stage aspirations, some are actual folk--remember them?

There are many songs I've worked up to the point that I could perform them expressively with a crib, but I don't feel like totally memorizing and actively reviewing them. (Consider Christmas carols and Civil War songs, as easy examples). Nevertheless, they'd be refreshing songs to share at song circles--if people weren't so snooty about song sheets. So the snoots end up depriving themselves and everyone else.

Time to reassess your priorities. Stop making hasty judgments about what it "means" if a person sings from a sheet. Have you grown too accustomed to musical performances pasteurized like Cheez-Whiz? Are you embarrassed by the reminder that your singers mostly learned their songs from Mudcat transcriptions taken from CDs? Does everyone have to be a Kate Rusby wannabe in order to grace your circle or sing in public? Why erect artificial barriers to people just singing and sharing?

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 07:32 PM

I suppose these things are dictated by culture. The culture of folk music seems to demand singing without notes. I come from the Wisconsin summer camp culture, and I absolutely detest having song lyrics sheets at campfires - and had frequent battles with Cub Scout den mothers who demanded that I provide song sheets for their children. Choir singers almost universally use hymnals, and classical singers usually use sheet music. Pop singers are generally expected to know their lyrics, although it seems some of them use TelePrompters or lip-sync.

So, it seems that different styles have different expectations. Still, some of us choir singers who would like to sing folk music, don't feel comfortable with our ability to memorize songs - and we feel excluded by those who demand that we do just that. And some of us camp song singers would like to begin to sing something more adult - and we need help.

So, I dunno. I guess absolutism is the mark of our culture nowadays. People are convinced that there's only one way to do things - their way. But give me a break, hey? Don't look at me when I'm singing, and then decide whether you like how I sing. Lots of people think my singing style is kinda crazy, but they grow to like it. And if you really don't want to see me with a lyrics sheet, I hope you like camp songs.

You put your left foot in, you put your left foot out....

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: DonMeixner
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 07:30 PM

The answer is yes and no.

If you are doing a stage performance that you want people to remember you by then pick your set, learn it and make it work for you. I have used a song sheet very few times in my life on stage and because I relied on the written word I tended to screw it up because I couldn't it well enough. Better to go commando and have to bluff it.

If you are leading a sing along for old folks( That would be people 15 years older than Kendall Morse)then use a note book full of copies and pass out the sheets to the front row. Everyone of those octogenarian babes will remember how considerate you were. (Women tend to octogenate while men barely septugenize if ever)

Don

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: mousethief
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 07:27 PM

It's okay if you sing in the nude, as long as you stand out.

O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: mg
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 07:21 PM

If only I shall ever be so lucky. mg

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 07:18 PM

If *I* sing in the nude, no one will remember if I sang well or not. Stunned minds will retreat into amnesia.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: mg
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 06:58 PM

It is OK if you sing in the nude. The key is to figure out what the culture of the session is and act accordingly and state your preferences clearly and nip things in the bud if you can. If runners of something don't speak up, there it goes and you have no one to blame. mg

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: GUEST,Rod
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 06:57 PM

Use a book by all means - it's a good signal for people to go to the bar...

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: GUEST,999
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 06:53 PM

"Is it Ok to sing from a song book?"


So, ya wanna sing from a cook book?

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: le cheffie
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 06:47 PM

I sing in pub sessions, I sing and play with my eyes closed, when I sing though I always have the words in front of me, I f people don't like it then tough shit, I go to a session to sing and enjoy my self. If people want to spoil my enjoyment of singing folk songs from a book then that is there look out. I am not a proffesional singer, I'm a bloke with a crap voice who enjoys singing and sod anyone who has a problem with it

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: GUEST,Roger Knowles
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 06:22 PM

No.
Learn the song you want to sing at home.
Don't practice in public, do it at home and then come out and sing the song when you know the words and music.
Age is no excuse. I'm 68, still know about 800 songs from memory and don't want to endure venues where people don't know the song well enough to sing it from memory.
That's why I rarely go to folk clubs any more, though I used to love them.
My opinion.It was asked for.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Joybell
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 06:14 PM

The key point here, and the one Soldier Boy already understands and accepts, is that all social gatherings have rules. Many of the ideas on this thread are helpful in understanding why this is so. Also they're helpful in suggesting ways of working within the rules.
That gatherings have rules is allowable, and even necessary, in Human society. Nobody questions that say -- a football club -- has certain rules for playing the game.
Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Genie
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 06:06 PM

Bob, that "backwards learning" trick is a good one.

But no matter how well you've learned a song, your mind can still go blank momentarily during a song. (Or at least mine can.)   If you're jamming with a few folks, it's usually no biggie. You just go oobie-doobie-doo or someone else provides the line or you just laugh it off. But when you're kind of performing, even if just in a sing-around, performance anxiety can turn that momentary lapse into a full mental block.   That's where cue cards or cheat sheets can be very helpful

Oh, and another very good memorization technique is "errorless learning." Every time you make a mistake, that error kind of gets "learned" in a way, so the more often you practice something with NO errors, the more solid your learning of the correct way will be. This is another reason why it's helpful to use big-print song sheets (I recommend 20-pt or more) as helpers until you have really, really learned a song.

And are you really supposed to sing a song 100 times in private before you ever share it in a song circle or singaround, just so you won't need the 'training wheels' that first time?

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Genie
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 05:58 PM

Good points, Bill D.

But what I enjoy LISTENING to and what I enjoy by way of sing-alongs are kind of two different things. It can be great fun, and great physical and emotional therapy, to sing with other people, even if nobody has a great voice.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: artbrooks
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 05:14 PM

You know, I remember when that quote from Barry Finn was first made and, with all possible respect to the guy, I didn't agree then either. There are all kinds of singing venues, and I think they are all represented here in one way or another. A gig, especially a paid gig, to me means that the performer knows his material and memory aids should be limited to a cue sheet with the song order - doesn't always work for everyone, of course. A group sing is a different critter entirely and, as has been said several times, local custom governs.

The term "singaround" used by the OP means different things in different places, and stating that such-and-such is permissible at a song circle or a group singalong but not at a singaround is essentially meaningless. There is a great mix of styles where I "sing"; some participants are confident enough to sing without aids, some like immensely complicated 87-verse ballads for which lyric sheets are essential and some like to sing as part of a group, in which everyone is singing the same thing in the same way. We take turns. Some of the purists out there will certainly say that one or more of those is wrong...and I suppose it is - for them. Some of us do not have the advantage of living where there is another group singing in a different way on another night at a different pub ten miles in the other direction or living in a major metroplex where there is something to fit every taste.

BTW, "Rise Up Singing" and "The Folksingers Wordbook" are very different publications, both are in print, and neither is a precursor of the other.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Songbob
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 05:11 PM

On memorizing, a trick I heard from Michael Cooney:

Learn the song backwards!

Start with the last verse, then sing the last two, then the last three, etc.

The part that gets repeated the most gets remembered the easiest.

Make the later verses the most-repeated, so when you get "into" the song, the parts you usually would have trouble with -- the later verses -- will be the easy verses, since you've repeated them the most.

It's artificial as hell, and hard to stick to as a practice, but it works.

Bob

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 05:05 PM

The late, great Barry Finn would sing with anyone- I've watched him!....but as you see, he would 'enjoy' singing more with those who mostly knew their songs..

Record yourself singing...then ask yourself if YOU would enjoy listening to someone singing in the same manner, If not, work on it! Ask people to critique you away from a song circle. Think about the song and what it means and try to put the 'feel' of it into your singing--humor or pathos need different treatment. (Just reciting the words to a vague tune is not fun to listen to.)

I am reminded of a thing I read once about writing... the guy said to ask yourself, "Do I really have something inside me that needs saying, or do I just 'want to have written a book'?" Ask yourself if you really enjoy singing, or you just 'want to have done a song in a group'. It's not always an easy question to answer, but it may help form your approach.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 04:52 PM

I've been a choir singer all my life, so I ordinarily use a hymnal. I suppose I have to go through a song ten times before I can sing it well from a hymnal (although I often have to get by with going through it once or twice when it's new material). After I've sung it a hundred times, I pretty-much know it by heart, and I'll glance at the hymnal once or twice during a verse - usually just at the beginning. Still, it helps to have the hymnal open for those spots where my mind goes blank.

I've sung from the Rise Up Singing songbook for almost twenty years, and I know most of the songs in that book that I'd want to know. So again, I merely glance at the book once a verse or so, and look at my audience most of the time. But the songs in Rise Up Singing are very well-known, to the point of being worn out. So, I like to learn new stuff. I keep a black folder of song lyrics, one song per page, printed in 16-point type or larger. You can see me singing from that folder here (click). I know this may be hard for some of you to believe, but I've come to the point where people actually request me to sing "Key of R," and I no longer need my lyrics page.

I refrain from using the Rise Up Singing songbook in many situations, because so many people speak of it so disdainfully; but I rarely get negative comments about my lyrics folder. I'm sorry, but I just don't have the time or patience to sing a song a hundred times to myself before I sing it for somebody else. Besides, I've found that I learn a song much better and much faster when I have an audience to interact with.

I try to sing so I'm not a slave to my songbook or lyrics sheet, but I think I sing better without the fear of forgetting lyrics.

One thing I enjoy very much is spending time with a friend or two and singing our way through a songbook, seeing how many songs we know or can learn.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Genie
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 04:51 PM

As Kat pointed out, choirs use music folders or books too, but they don't bury their heads in them. They know the songs but the printed sheet is there as an aid, as needed. Being able to glance at the sheet can prevent brain farts and their consequences.

I find if I have a song sheet in front of me and I know the song, I often don't even need to look at it. Just knowing it's there tends to make me less likely to go blank on a lyric.


Songbob, I agree about the tyranny of everyone having to stick to one particular printed version of a song.   Especially when your preferred version isn't the one in the book or, worse, when the book has some lyrics or chords WRONG. (I'm talking about you, RUS, for one.) "Version creep" can really throw a monkey wrench into a group sing when lyric sheets aren't used.

Acorn, I too prefer someone to use a lyric sheet or crib note than to leave out verses or mix up the order (in songs where that matters) or just bumble through.    And a book can be distracting if people are flipping through it when others are singing or when it comes their turn to lead a song.


Nick, the easiest and fastest way for me to learn a new song - to perform it in front of an audience w/o notes - is to have the lyrics (and maybe chords) in front of me in very large type the first 2 or 3 times I do it in public.    All I do is glance occasionally and briefly at that sheet while I'm playing and singing the song, and by about the 3rd time I don't need the cheat sheet anymore.   (If I don't sing the song again for a while - e.g., a song I do only at Christmas time - I may need to use the cheat sheet one more time to refresh my memory.)   
I think one reason people who use RUS tend to bury their heads in the book is that the type is so small and the format isn't easy to read (with lyrics jumping from the bottom left to the upper right of the page, for example).   If the print on a song sheet is really large, it's easy to read at a glance.
When I use RUS as a song sheet, I do NOT tend to automatically memorize the song the way I do when I use really big print song sheets - probably because so much of my attention is required to follow the format of RUS and read the mice type.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Joybell
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 04:35 PM

No Bonzo3legs, it's not tragic that someone needs to ask this question. It does matter what other people think when you are performing. That's why we perform. It's to share songs and to make contact with other minds through them. How we do this is not just about ourselves.
I think there are many wise and well-considered opinions on this thread from all kinds of performers. I think it's a valid question and a wise decision to ask it.
Cheers, Joy

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Genie
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 04:23 PM

Bernard, I agree that it's better to use a memory aid than to go blank on a lyric in the middle of a song and then either hem and haw — or, sometimes, even improvise.

Yes, I know, the latter is a lot of where "the folk process" comes from, and it may even be a good thing with trad. songs that have many versions. But if you're singing a song in which the lyricist composed not only specific lyrics but damned good ones, your spur-of-the moment improvisation probably won't be as good, and it's likely to make it HARDER for you to sing the correct lyrics next time.

Nancy, and others, I agree there's a difference between a performing "singaround" and a sing-along-type song circle.    You can't get much singing along unless people know the lyrics. Without lyric sheets of some sort, you're limited to very simple, repetitive songs or very, very familiar ones.
Personally, sometimes I'd even like to provide sheet music, to encourage others to harmonize; if my song is new to most other participants and I go into harmony, the others do too, so no one is carrying melody, and if the song's harmony isn't a simple 3rd above or below, it's rare for anyone else to spontaneously come up with one.    IMO, there are songs that are pretty much MADE by harmonies, and I don't like them to be excluded from sing-alongs because of some rule against using printed materials.

Chris, as for people telling you you "should" learn a song by heart, let me say this:   From early childhood I was blessed with a superior talent for memorizing things like song lyrics, poems, play scripts, etc.   (Too bad it wasn't a very marketable skill!)   It's not as easy for me as it was up to about age 50, but it's still easier for me than for others.   But many others of equal or greater "intelligence" don't have that particular talent, and I think it's pretty presumptive of those of us who CAN memorize lyrics easily to expect everyone else to be able to do it. If you don't yet know the lyrics to your favorite songs by heart, it's not necessarily because you're stupid or lazy.   A rule that nobody can use a book or lyric sheet is kind of like telling people they can't come on the hike if they need a cane or their asthma inhaler.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: RWJ
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 04:14 PM

I have trouble remembering the words but i rarely use a book. I tend to forget to take it.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Bonzo3legs
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 04:07 PM

It's tragic that someone feels the need to ask such a question. It is of no consequence what other people think, it's what you feel comfortable doing that counts. Ignore the anorak folkies they are all mad!!

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Susan of DT
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 03:59 PM

I am pleased at the supportive tone of this thread.

I use a book - a small subset of the Digital Tradition - and feel funny about using it. I am not a performer - I'm talking about song circles. I try to keep a large repertoire going - I made a rule to myself not to sing the same song to the same group within a year. I sing mostly Child ballads and have about 60 of them going in various levels of "knowing" them. I need my safety net to have the courage to sing.

In some song circles almost everyone uses a book or notes of some variety and in others almost no one does. I have been afraid to sing at some groups where books seemed unwelcome.

Know your song so that you can put it over well, but don't worry about using a book.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: catspaw49
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 03:30 PM

SOLDIER BOY........As has been previously mentioned this is one of the oldest and sometimes most contentious subject on the forum. Let me show you what I mean. THIS THREAD is 12 years old and you'll see some familiar names. At the top of that thread is a list of others pertaining to RUS (Rise Up Singing) in particular and "book singing" in general. Read throughsome of them and you'll find the same things are being said on every one!

Buut one voice on the subject that was probably the best and most vocal is now gone from us. So let me repost here the words of our friend and 'Catter, Barry Finn:

There was a time when people came to sing, sometimes because they couldn't read & othertimes because they just enjoyed it, then others came along to listen & join in & add to the the merryment or just to listen because it's a pleasure, & hell, without the new blood what's the use of keeping such a loving thing alive if it's so sad to see it dying. My ideal singing party starts at daybreak, I'd go for roasting a pig, by noon every one's ready to eat, drink & sing, nobody misses out on singing & beginners or the shy always have the floor & the rest are in there for the coaxing & the crack, just no RUS bibles around. Usually most keep going on till evening when the heat gets turned on & that works out nicely for those that don't have a lot of songs to draw from, this is when some of the odd gems get thrown around (& everyone's joining in) along with the diamond in the rough that's hardly been heard but when you hear it you can't forget where it came from. Still no books but everybodys singing & the beginners want more & those that have been around longer are looking to swap & give more. My ideal festival is not the stages but the campsites where you can find all kinds of people singing all kinds of songs and telling all kinds of stories. I'll leave you with that image, if you want to learn a song or a tune don't try & learn it at a session or party, learn it at home, from a book if need be then leave the book there & take the music to the party. Barry, who loves it when it's wild.

And if you thought that made sense, read the following rant from Barry:

You don't teach bad singers to get better by having them sing with their peers (you have a sucky sing, it'll stay that way or get worst), you put them in with a good group, you won't get an infusion of new, fresh or young blood by exposing them to a medicore sing, you won't get anyone one to liven up the dead, the dead will bring the rest down to the lowest common denominator. If you have a great sing going throw out any bastard that wants to bring in a book, if they multiply they'll kill it! You can't kill a good sing when you've got good & strong core of singers leading it. When I lived in San Francisco 30 odd yrs ago they had some of the best singing parties I ever went to (God I miss those days), there were new people, young & old, great singers & bad singers, they all sang a varity of genres, there was a great flow of songs but when they crowded a room the roof lifted & not a piece of paper could be seen. The front room was packed, the side room was packed, the kitchen was jammed. The side room started off with newbies & beginners, as the night wore on the kitchen would start getting louder & the volume & harmony would rise above the rest. The other rooms would start to leave for the kitchen, the strong singers held court & the rest supported them. Eventually the weaker singers grew to become part of the strong core & got to lead on their own. It was magic, a few yrs later the good/strong singers left to form their own Way, the books had taken over & a good thing died an awful death. Today that sing still exists & it still sucks (I visited it the last time I was out there & the one attended by the core that left is smaller but it's good but not nearly as great as it once was. See, I also believe that with out those weaker singers, the newbies & them that don't have such a good voice we all lose something of the spirit & lust, we don't sing as well for ourselves as we do when we're singing for others. It's a wonderful thing to watch singers as they grow but they'll never grow in an enviorment where the level of singing is just a step above the gutter, in 5 yurs time they'll find that they've only sunk into the sewer.
You teach the newbies by setting your own good example. If you've got a wonderful singing club they won't jump in with a book & drag it down, they'll wait until they've been encourged by their betters & that happens as they start to join in with the rest, they get pulled along until they're ready to get their feet wet. They learn as they go! You enjoy listening to a good singer who sings their song well & has the crowd joining in or at a whisper, well they didn't learn their craft overnight, someone pulled them along too or they put in an awful lot of time & effort on their own & no one does it better alone!
An old Cape Horner told me that there was harmony on board ships, where they sang while they worked, even though a good number of the singers sucked at singing, he called it natural harmony among so many, they followed & learned their way by being with those that knew better & were around longer. I believe that every singer that thinks/knows they're bad can be better if they're exposed & surrounded by good singers (or have a voice teacher, which is more fun?), the tone deaf can be corrected to hear what works with others provided they get to sing with others that are good, they'll know with the help of the others & they'll come by some of it on their own too. We can all help to make it better but it can go the other way too, as we've seen & heard about in this thread. RUS, sucks when it's brought into a group sing, keep it at home, on the shelf with the rest of your reference books. Do you bring the whole fucking library to each sing you go to?
You need a cheat sheet? The best cheat sheet I ever saw was when I looked at our own treaties1/Theresa. She had in her hand a small index card with just a couple lead words for each verse, to give her a jolt if she needed it. Now there's a woman with a voice & a spirit to match, what a singer, what a passion & spirit but you'd never know she had any thing to back her up "just in case" & I think that was just for her shaky songs which I can't see that she'd have to many of but she's a wonder to behold. There are ways to get past the need for a note book & library. You don't do yourself any favors & you certinally aren't furthering the group singing at all, you're only dumbing it down.

Barry may be gone but thanks to the 'Cat we have his words of wisdom and experience still here.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 03:20 PM

It doesn't matter whether it's a concert in front of hundreds of people, or a small singaround - it's still a performance. Even if you're inexperienced and nervous - especially if you're inexperienced and nervous - you should prepare beforehand. That means deciding what you're going to sing, plus a couple of reserves in case someone else gets in first, or in case you're asked for another with little warning. Learn them and practice them. If you need prompt cards to remind you of the key, or starting lines, have them ready and in order, and keep their use as brief as possible.

Of course inexperienced singers are nervous, but they're probably in supportive surroundings. Everyone, even experienced performers, gets nervous, it's what keeps you on your toes. The better prepared and rehearsed you are, the more confident you'll be and less likely to make mistakes.

However, part of learning to be a singer is learning how to cope with mistakes. Everyone makes them from time to time, even the pros. You could laugh it off, stop and start again, or even carry on regardless - a strategic mumble can get you past a forgotten word, or just make them up. If you play an instrument, an instrumental break can buy you time while you calm down and remember the next verse. Audiences are generally forgiving, and will soon forget you made an error, assuming they even noticed it.

Things like this are as much a part of being a singer as learning the words and the tune. They're skills which any would-be singer should aspire to. If you're going to do something, surely you should want do it properly and to the best of your ability.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: GUEST,Shimrod
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 03:04 PM

"Is it OK to sing from a song book?"

No!!!

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: RTim
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 03:00 PM

Before I sing at ANY EVENT - be it gig or sing around, I decide what I am most likely to sing, and write a list on a Post It Note, etc., and if I need to, I reference the page in my 7" x 4 3/4 " notebook where the first lines are. Then I ONLY sing something from that list, having practiced them before hand.

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: goatfell
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 02:47 PM

I use a songbook, if you feel comfortable about using one then do so if then don't, whatever you find comfortable, you don't have problem, other people do.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Maryrrf
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 02:39 PM

If a book is used, have the song you're going to sing bookmarked so you don't waste time shuffling through the pages when it's your turn. It's baffling sometimes at a singaround, when everybody can tell when their turn is coming up, that some people start futzing around with their songbooks or notebooks when it gets around to them instead of having their chosen song ready. I'd rather people refer to the lyrics if it is helpful, and it needn't detract from the song. Sometimes a book or lyric sheet just serves as a 'safety net' and it isn't even necessary - but the security derived from having it helps ward off nervousness.   It's well known that a song one can sing perfectly at home or in the car can fly from memory when you're in front of an audience. And I agree about noting the key, etc. I always have a set list with the keys noted, and sometimes some notes about the songs, as one poster noted - in case someone asks.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: eddie1
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 02:32 PM

Having read through this thread, it seems to me that maybe it's right for some people and not right for others.

Eddie

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Art Thieme
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 02:26 PM

Only very rarely---and only with a good reason that is mentioned rather prominently beforehand.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Paul Burke
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 02:19 PM

One advantage of a book, though it's seldom used, is that you can avoid only being able to think of one song- the one you always do- when suddenly it's your turn. Sameness, whether from page or rote, is a dead hand on many folk sessions. Perhaps a compromise- learn your songs, but use the book (with a pitch/ key prompt in it) to ensure that you can choose a fresh song, remember how it goes, and avoid those embarrassing false starts in little Aled Jones pitch.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 01:57 PM

Really damned annoying that I can get through a good number of songs without help when I am singing at home. But let people be around me and I get a severe case of ASHA (Amateur Singer's Hysterical Amnesia).

I guess I can do about 5 or 6 in public without help of cheat sheets. So I use my book of words to ease my sheer terror that I will forget words in mid song.

If anyone wants to complain, I just won't return. No one has so far. I think anyone who would make comment, to be pretty rude and an insufferable snob.

I like that rehearsal tip Jacqui. Think I will try that.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: GUEST,Kendall
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 01:49 PM

As far as stumbling around trying to find the song in the book or trying to remember the tune, learn the damn song, then sing it!

Something that bugs me is the performer who waits until he/she gets on stage before tuning. Especially if they are limited to one or two songs. No one wants to listen to you tune and make small talk while you do it.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: GUEST,zpc
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 01:42 PM

The 'witch' and I pretty much always used songbooks if we had an actual audience - oddly enough, though I'm the one with the chronic memory problems, I was also reliably the one who knew the words! We mostly used the books to a) remind us what songs we knew, and b) sort out what order verses came in & - as others in the thread - make sure we were both on the same version...

But on the other hand, we could (and did) do most of our regular repertoire walking down the street with no aids whatsoever, just with the occasional wrong-verse stumble or 'la la la something' line substituted...

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: jacqui.c
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 01:24 PM

When I started singing in public, at singarounds, ten years ago I always used a book. It gave me a bit of courage to have the words in front of me and meant that I could concentrate on getting the tune right.

Over the years I have developed more confidence and have been able to remember the words of more songs, but I do still like having the book to hand, just in case.

So far as learning songs - I take the words with me when I take the dog for a walk and find that, over the course of 3/4 hour I can learn a short song, say up to four verses. I start with the first verse and, when I've got that one in, go on to the second verse, learn that and then sing both verses together. I'll do the same with the next two verses and then try putting the whole thing together - that works for me,but we all have different ways of learning.

Like some of the other posters I would rather see someone using a book than to have someone who gets part way through a song and then spends the next ten minutes trying to stumble through the rest of it because they can't remember the words, and that I have seen in the past year an occasion which resulted in other people not getting a chance to sing in an hour's session. Similarly, those who have a very limited repertoire and sing the same few songs week after week for many years or those who sing to the book with no feeling in their voices.

For me there is always the push to do better, to increase the range of my voice and the number of songs that I can sing, with or without the words to hand. I think, for any of us, there is always room for improvement - it just depends how much work you will or can put into the craft.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: GUEST,Auld timer
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 12:54 PM

Don't sing from a book or paper. This acts as a barier between you and your audence. Learn the song, learn the difference in the verses, learn how the tune has to alter to fit the words in different verses, learn how your breathing has to change to fit this change, learn the song. That is what the audence is listening to.

NOT how good(or otherwise)you can read, they want to hear you sing. Honest they realy do, want to hear you sing.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: mg
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 12:44 PM

I have no problem with people using their own books or even the blue book, for themselves. I have a huge problem, unless the group was formed specifically to do this, with people coming into established groups and telling people to go to a song on such and such a page and it being a group reading experience. Then they try to push extra copies on you. That is the problem I have. If a group wants to get together and do that, fine. But don't do it when an established group hates it. Any questions, ask. If it is a group that really hates that, find or form another group. The two schools of thought are basically incompatible. One group will th ink the other is ruining their music, which is why they get together, and the other group will think the others are musical snobs,, not democratic, not supportive. Both sides are right. mg

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 12:33 PM

One of the reasons a lot of singers close their eyes when singing, is that, even for 'pros', it is easy to get distracted by what the audience is doing. The question is, when you are at home, alone, can you do the whole song without a sheet? If so, then closing your eyes might help...if not, maybe just lots or repetition is in order.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 12:33 PM

Singing from a book is a skill like any other. If you don't practice you won't be able to do it fluently. Since there are far more songs out there than you could possibly memorize, it's worth learning how to carry off a song from a book in case you need a new one in a hurry.

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 12:21 PM

AS Bernard says, some people, myself included, learn songs more easily by singing them over and over again, rather than sitting down with the text of the lyrics, so for me it has to be the car Cd player.
I have used the same method for learning lines from plays, which involves having to record yourself reading ALL the characters and then leaving gaps for your own part!
I would prefer to sing MORE songs, if using the words for some of them, rather than restrict myself only to those I can definitely do from memory: hopefully the former eventually become the latter.
And I prefer the term "comfort zone" for performing within a discreet sight of the words, available if needed, rather than a "crutch" - whether the words are in a neat folder on a music stand or on a crumpled piece of paper in your pocket or behind your back: it removes a lot of the anxiety about forgetting the words........which fear makes you almost certainly forget the words!

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Bernard
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 12:16 PM

What I find REALLY irritating is those people who only sing the same two or three songs week in, week out, yet still have to spend the first minute or so of their turn finding the song in their book... then they forget the tune and take ages getting started, then lose their place in the words... grrrr!!

Isn't it wonderful being perfect?!!

Subject: RE: Is it Ok to sing from a song book?
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Feb 10 - 12:16 PM

one person said:"Have you tried just with prompts of key words on a card?"

That can be a great help. I am not a regular 'performer', so there are sometimes songs I am inspired to do that I have not 'refreshed' recently, and a help sheet is nice.

When listening, I have ONE rule: IF I can close my eyes and not tell whether or not you are using a cheat-sheet, I am happy.So, if you really 'almost' know the song and just want a little crutch in case of verse order, etc., it should be fine...but then, go home and practice.
If you are just reading, it usually shows up as pauses, breaks, corrected words...etc...which don't make for pleasant listening. (Same goes for the tune...if you have to also refer to the tune as well as the words, it just won't work, except as a short demo to explain to someone about a song you are learning.)