BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 07:28 PM

Mitt Romney says religion doesn't matter!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Bill D
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 07:27 PM

Right now, there are entire TV programs and segments 'examining' the various US presidential candidates' religious preference and the presumed relevance to their character and abilities.
It sort of started because Romney & Huckabee have deeply held positions which seem to cast doubt on their neutrality on various issues.
   What it has led to is a rush by ALL candidates to assure voters that they ALL 'believe in God and Jesus' and will uphold Christian values...though they **of course** would NEVER let those beliefs interfere with their job, should they become president.

What I see in all of this is that the supposed Constitutional "separation of Church and State" has become almost a joke. What does it mean when, as soon as a candidate declares he is running, he is immediately quizzed on his religious affiliation and it's details? ....Well, first it means that it is EXTREMELY unlikely that a person with no Christian affiliation could possibly be elected, no matter how well qualified.
   Next, it means that if he does declare an affiliation, entire block of voters will dissect it and issue proclamations of approval or warning.

Does anyone remember how Dwight Eisenhower had to search for a handy, low-key church to be 'seen' in?

   It has become a major issue in American politics and is affecting the very fabric of how we conduct elections. Doesn't the sight of various Theocracies in the world tell us how dangerous it is to **REQUIRE** a specific form of religious belief of our leaders? How long until one of these leaders moves to do and end run around that phrase "shall make no laws respecting an establishment of religion"?

   I try VERY hard to respect the rights of others TO believe as they choose, but I also see de facto if not de jure encroachment on MY rights to not believe. George Bush has done many things to reduce and limit the separation of Church & State, and I fear that more forces are at work to extend this, even if the most religiously committed candidates are not elected.

It is foolish to do as Ed did and and just state that "there aren't any gods"...but it is even more foolish to state that there are, and that we MUST accept a particular set if we are to have any voice in shepherding this country thru its various troubles.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 07:02 PM

My favorite child's letter to god was from an 8-year-old boy:

"Dear god, How did you first know you were god?"

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 06:40 PM

>>Has this turned personal for you? You are assuming facts not in evidence. You know nothing about my morals. Chill just a little bit please. We're trying to have a discussion here. There's no need to attack anyone in particular.<<

Since I do, in fact, know nothing about your morals, then it would be a good bet to assume my statement was simply rhetorical.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: number 6
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 06:39 PM

Whew .... reading this thread is beginning to feel like sitting through High Mass ... in Latin ... it all starts to sound like a droning chant.

biLL :)

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Riginslinger
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 06:19 PM

It looks like there's a really big difference between Barry Goldwater and Ronald Reagan.

                   The Flannery O'Connor quote surprised me.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 06:10 PM

"Whatever we cannot easily understand we call God; this saves much wear and tear on the brain tissues. --Edward Abbey"

True, in the case of people who have a primitive, anthropomorphic understanding of "God", as they choose to call it.

"All thinking men are atheists. --Ernest Hemingway"

Patently and grossly untrue. But Hemingway wasn't perfect.

"When I think of all the harm [the bible] has done, I despair of ever writing anything to equal it. --Oscar Wilde"

Yeah, I can certainly sympathize with that.

"Must then a Christ perish in torment in every age to save those that have no imagination? --George Bernard Shaw"

Hmm. I don't know. Must one? I have no answer to that.

"Faith is when you believe in something that no one in their right mind would believe. --Archie Bunker"

No, faith is when you believe in something you cannot yet prove, and MANY in their right mind may believe similarly as you about it...or not...depends what it is, and who they are.

"She was a good Christian woman with a large respect for religion, though she did not, of course, believe any of it was true. --Flannery O'Connor"

For sure. She was concerned about fitting in to the society at the time. People are like that.

"If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities. --Voltaire"

Yeah, that sounds very likely to me too.

"It is a curious thing...that every creed promises a paradise which will be absolutely uninhabitable for anyone of civilized taste. -- Evelyn Waugh"

That's amusing! ;-) It's witty. But it's not necessarily true. Some creeds promise reincarnation. Others promise a return to not a paradise, but a featureless void where all individuality ceases to be. Others promise no return whatsoever, but focus on life HERE and NOW.

"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. --Blaise Pascal"

Sounds good, but it is equally true of men with extreme political convictions (like Pol Pot or Mao Tse Tung) AND men who are after a whole lot of fast MONEY! Al Capone was cheerful in his convictions too.

"Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich. --Napoleon Bonaparte"

For awhile......! But not forever.

"In some awful, strange, paradoxical way, atheists tend to take religion more seriously than the practitioners. --Jonathan Miller"

That's true! Good point, Jonathan.

"The religions of mankind must be classed among the mass-delusions of this kind. No one, needless to say, who shares a delusion ever recognizes it as such. --Sigmund Freud"

Yeah. Freud had a few delusions of his own too...he had some truly weird ideas about male and female motivations. "Penis envy" is one that merits a good laugh, I think.

"I prayed for freedom twenty years but received no answer until I prayed with my legs. --Frederick Douglass"

Well, Duh! Ever heard the expression, "God helps those who help themselves."?

"I'm frankly sick and tired of the political preachers across this country telling me as a citizen that if I want to be a moral person, I must believe in "A," "B," "C," and "D." Just who do they think they are? And from where do they presume to claim the right to dictate their moral beliefs to me? And I am even more angry as a legislator who must endure the threats of ever religious group who thinks it has some God-granted right to control my every roll call in the Senate. I am warning them today: I will fight them every step of the way if they try to dictate their moral convictions to all Americans in the name of "conservatism." --Barry Goldwater"

Good for you, Barry. I'm right with you on that.

"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. --George Bernard Shaw"

This depends on what the believer believes IN, doesn't it? Someone who believes he's going to hell is NOT happy! (p.s. I don't believe in Hell).

"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep-seated need to believe. --Carl Sagan"

True. That's the trouble with George Bush. Well, it's one of the troubles with George Bush. ;-)

"When lip service to some mysterious deity permits bestiality on Wednesday and absolution on Sunday--cash me out. --Frank Sinatra"

I cashed Sinatra out a long time ago. But I'd have to agree with him on that one 100%.

"The churches have no confidence in each other. Why? Because they are acquainted with each other. --Robert Green Ingersoll"

Ha! LOL! Devastating. I agree wholeheartedly.

"The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshipped anything but himself. --Richard Francis Burton"

Sounds about right to me. ;-)

"If ignorance of nature gave birth to gods, knowledge of nature is made for their destruction. --Percy Bysshe Shelley"

That's an interesting one. I'm sure that any god someone made could also be destroyed, all right.

"Just think of the tragedy of teaching children not to doubt. --Clarence Darrow"

BLOODY RIGHT! Children should question EVERYTHING.

"But who prays for Satan? Who, in eighteen centuries, has had the common humanity to pray for the one sinner that needed it most? --Mark Twain"

I'll agree with Mark Twain on that. Good point.

"Accustom a people to believe that priests, or any other class of men, can forgive sins, and you will have sins in abundance. --Thomas Paine"

DAMN BLOODY RIGHT!!!!!!

"With soap, baptism is a good thing. --Robert Green Ingersoll"

Yeah, I guess....but I have no concerns about the practice of baptism one way or another. Them as wants it can have it, I guess.

"In order to exist just once in the world, it is necessary never again to exist. --Albert Camus"

Yes..........and?

"Certainty about the next life is simply incompatible with tolerance in this one. --Sam Harris"

Who's certain about it??????

"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived. --Isaac Asimov"

Possibly, depending on who you look at it, I guess. Personally, I can say that it definitely had that effect on me more than once when I read this or that passage. There's some totally weird stuff in the Bible, and I do not consider it my spiritual guidebook.

"All gods are dead except the god of war. --Eldredge Cleaver"

Not true. The God of Money is alive and well, as are a whole bunch of other Gods that I listed a couple of days ago. The God of nationalism is another. Then there are the Gods of fame, youth, good looks, and being seen as a "winner". They're all very much alive.

"Once miracles are admitted, every scientific explanation is out of the question. --Johannes Kepler"

There are no miracles, only certain natural events as yet not understood.

"Religion provides the solace for the turmoil it creates. --Byron Danelius"

For some, that is true.

"Fanaticism consists in redoubling your effort when you have forgotten your aim. --George Santayana"

Yeah. Observe Bush in Iraq. But HAS he forgotten his aim? That's the question.

"Its hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning. --Bill Watterson"

Ha! No, it isn't. It's just hard to be satisfied when they aren't.

"If triangles made a god, they would give him three sides. --Montesquieu"

Yes! And if rabbits made a god, he'd have big floppy ears, and no one would nibble on Sunday.

"We are punished by our sins, not for them. --Elbert Hubbard"

Eloquently put. I agree entirely.

"Perhaps the whole root of our trouble, the human trouble, is that we will sacrifice all the beauty of our lives, will imprison ourselves in totems, taboos, crosses, blood sacrifices, steeples, mosques, races, armies, flags, nations, in order to deny the fact of death, which is the only fact we have. --James Baldwin"

Most people do tend to deny death. I don't. I expect to die, probably within the next 10 to 15 years, and maybe sooner. I don't particularly mind dying when the time comes. It's one of the most obvious eventualities I can possibly name, and I have no doubt that it's going to happen.

"One is often told that it is a very wrong thing to attack religion, because religion makes men virtuous. So I am told; I have not noticed it. --Bertrand Russell"

LOL! Ever the wit, Bertrand. Nice one. ;-)

"Let me alone. Good day. --Thomas Paine on his deathbed when asked by a clergyman if he would like to confess before Christ"

Right on. I can definitely relate to Tom Paine on that one.

*************************


See? I agreed with most of that too. Whatcha gonna do now?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 06:05 PM

I've had more than my fair share of encounters with Christian evangelists. Hell, when I was a hospital in Denver for a couple of months, I had a fundamentalist minister as a room mate! If you don't think that wasn't a royal pain in the ass, you have another think coming!

And during the Sixties, when I was packing my guitar around Seattle's University District, a local Bible college sent a horde of students to the U. District to save the souls of us misguided hippies (all folk singers are hippies, of course). I couldn't walk into bookstore or a pizza parlor without getting mugged at the door by some aggressive evangelizer trying to save my soul. I got pretty glib at blowing them off. Had to. Survival mechanism.

I have also encountered more than my fair share of evangelistic atheists.

And I can say this from a wealth of experience:    There are damned few people more aggressive and hostile than evangelistic atheists!

That's a fact!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Wesley S
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 05:46 PM

Any list of quotes that uses Archie Bunker and "Calvin and Hobbs" to help make their points is alright by me.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 05:45 PM

What kids think of G-d.

You can 'maximize' the letters by putting your cursor at the lower right-hand corner of the lot.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 05:44 PM

I see that this thread is in good hands.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 05:41 PM

Why is it that you are so lacking in any inclination to find common ground with someone after disagreeing about something, 282? All you're doing is telling me how awful I am. Am I supposed to be hurt, burst into tears, and run away and hide? ;-)

This is really just a sad performance on your part. Give up the grudge match. Try to find something we agree about instead.

And, hey, how did you find all those great quotes so quickly? Yowsa! Pretty cool. Where could you even find the time? ;-)

Got a book of great quotes handy?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Wesley S
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 05:38 PM

"I'm not in the business of crusading about your lack of morals."

Has this turned personal for you? You are assuming facts not in evidence. You know nothing about my morals. Chill just a little bit please. We're trying to have a discussion here. There's no need to attack anyone in particular.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 05:33 PM

>>282RA - I'm going to assume that you are very active in the movement to stop the use and sale of tobacco products. If organized religions were to get active in that regard - what would you suggest they do to get started? What actions are you taking - and how can organized religions follow in your footsteps?<<

Oh no, I'm not the tiniest bit active about it. Not at all. I'm not interested in saving humanity. I'm not in the business of crusading about your lack of morals. I'm not the tiniest bit concerned about your lifestyle. If you, however, feel you need to do those things, may I suggest organizing a massive protest against the tobacco giants so that some good will hopefully come out of all your efforts. If you don't want to do that then please go about your business and stay out of mine and I will gladly reciprocate.

The ONLY time I will ever go into the public arena and raise a huge fuss is when you feel you need to mind my business more than your own.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 05:25 PM

>>Jesus (and Buddha) (and Krishna) advised against all of that kind of negative judgement of others, and, boy, was he (Jesus) detested by a lot of people for having done so!<<

And isn't it ironic that you have behaved in that fashion throughout this thread and been praised for it?

MEET THE GALLERY OF PEOPLE OBVIOUSLY MORE IMMATURE, CRASS AND PREJUDICED THAN LITTLE HAWK:

Whatever we cannot easily understand we call God; this saves much wear and tear on the brain tissues. --Edward Abbey

All thinking men are atheists. --Ernest Hemingway

When I think of all the harm [the bible] has done, I despair of ever writing anything to equal it. --Oscar Wilde

Must then a Christ perish in torment in every age to save those that have no imagination? --George Bernard Shaw

Faith is when you believe in something that no one in their right mind would believe. --Archie Bunker

She was a good Christian woman with a large respect for religion, though she did not, of course, believe any of it was true. --Flannery O'Connor

If we believe absurdities, we shall commit atrocities. --Voltaire

It is a curious thing...that every creed promises a paradise which will be absolutely uninhabitable for anyone of civilized taste. -- Evelyn Waugh

Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. --Blaise Pascal

Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich. --Napoleon Bonaparte

In some awful, strange, paradoxical way, atheists tend to take religion more seriously than the practitioners. --Jonathan Miller

The religions of mankind must be classed among the mass-delusions of this kind. No one, needless to say, who shares a delusion ever recognizes it as such. --Sigmund Freud

I prayed for freedom twenty years but received no answer until I prayed with my legs. --Frederick Douglass

I'm frankly sick and tired of the political preachers across this country telling me as a citizen that if I want to be a moral person, I must believe in "A," "B," "C," and "D." Just who do they think they are? And from where do they presume to claim the right to dictate their moral beliefs to me? And I am even more angry as a legislator who must endure the threats of ever religious group who thinks it has some God-granted right to control my every roll call in the Senate. I am warning them today: I will fight them every step of the way if they try to dictate their moral convictions to all Americans in the name of "conservatism." --Barry Goldwater

The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. --George Bernard Shaw

You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep-seated need to believe. --Carl Sagan

When lip service to some mysterious deity permits bestiality on Wednesday and absolution on Sunday--cash me out. --Frank Sinatra

The churches have no confidence in each other. Why? Because they are acquainted with each other. --Robert Green Ingersoll

The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshipped anything but himself. --Richard Francis Burton

If ignorance of nature gave birth to gods, knowledge of nature is made for their destruction. --Percy Bysshe Shelley

Just think of the tragedy of teaching children not to doubt. --Clarence Darrow

But who prays for Satan? Who, in eighteen centuries, has had the common humanity to pray for the one sinner that needed it most? --Mark Twain

Accustom a people to believe that priests, or any other class of men, can forgive sins, and you will have sins in abundance. --Thomas Paine

With soap, baptism is a good thing. --Robert Green Ingersoll

In order to exist just once in the world, it is necessary never again to exist. --Albert Camus

Certainty about the next life is simply incompatible with tolerance in this one. --Sam Harris

Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived. --Isaac Asimov

All gods are dead except the god of war. --Eldredge Cleaver

Once miracles are admitted, every scientific explanation is out of the question. --Johannes Kepler

Religion provides the solace for the turmoil it creates. --Byron Danelius

Fanaticism consists in redoubling your effort when you have forgotten your aim. --George Santayana

Its hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning. --Bill Watterson

If triangles made a god, they would give him three sides. --Montesquieu

We are punished by our sins, not for them. --Elbert Hubbard

Perhaps the whole root of our trouble, the human trouble, is that we will sacrifice all the beauty of our lives, will imprison ourselves in totems, taboos, crosses, blood sacrifices, steeples, mosques, races, armies, flags, nations, in order to deny the fact of death, which is the only fact we have. --James Baldwin

One is often told that it is a very wrong thing to attack religion, because religion makes men virtuous. So I am told; I have not noticed it. --Bertrand Russell

Let me alone. Good day. --Thomas Paine on his deathbed when asked by a clergyman if he would like to confess before Christ.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 05:15 PM

"Well, they want to tackle the abortion issue. They want to tackle the gay marriage issue. Neither of those have anything to do with Christianity either."

Agreed!

"There is not a word about abortion in the entire bible and David eulogizes Jonathan by saying his love was more pleasurable than that of women."

Agreed!

"The point is, people need to have access to abortions--safe and legal abortions. Christians have no right to try and take that away."

Agreed!!!


"Gay marriage doesn't hurt anybody whatsoever and Christians have no right to try and ban love between human beings."

Agreed!!!

"Cigarettes are a deadly poison sold openly to people by execs with no conscience who rake in millions a year if not billions, killing millions annually worldwide, poisoning even those who choose not to smoke...."

AGREED!!!! And how. I have hated cigarettes with a passion since I was old enough to breathe, let alone walk, and I come from a non-smoking family, and have never been a smoker. I consider the tobacco-selling business to be a giant drug-pushing operation, and I would be pleased to see it removed from the face of the Earth (Except for some traditional people such as Native Americans who grow, harvest, and smoke their own if they wish to, but do NOT sell it commercially to anyone. That I could put up with, because it's part of their ancient culture.)

"...and Christians don't seem to find this immoral enough to organize against it."

Ummm...that depends on which Christians you are referring to. There are many people opposed to smoking, and more than a few of them are Christians, but the vocally noticeable protesting Christian pressure groups who happen to bug you (and me) are so busy yelling about abortion and gay marriage and stuff like that that they perhaps haven't the time or energy to yell about tobacco abuse??? That would be my guess. Besides, would the press cover it if they did? Naw...not newsworthy. The press WILL cover it if they picket an abortion clinic or a movie they don't like....THAT's considered newsworthy! ;-) Reasonable Christians who mind their own business are NOT considered newsworthy, so don't expect to hear about them on the 6 O'Clock News.


"I'm saying if they REALLY care about doing something good for humanity then go after something like that and stop trying to hurt innocent people."

Agreed!

"And I'm only talking about activist Christians. I don't care about nominal ones. This is for the ones who can't mind their own fucking business just have to try and save the whole world from itself. Christians who mind their own business I have no issue with."

AGREED!!!!!!!!!!!!

See, we aren't so much at odds as you thought. In fact, we are barely at odds whatsoever when it comes to actual issues.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Wesley S
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 04:02 PM

282RA - I'm going to assume that you are very active in the movement to stop the use and sale of tobacco products. If organized religions were to get active in that regard - what would you suggest they do to get started? What actions are you taking - and how can organized religions follow in your footsteps?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 03:34 PM

>>I don't think tobacco companys have anything to do with Christianity. Why lay that on Christians alone?<<

Well, they want to tackle the abortion issue. They want to tackle the gay marriage issue. Neither of those have anything to do with Christianity either. There is not a word about abortion in the entire bible and David eulogizes Jonathan by saying his love was more pleasurable than that of women.

The point is, people need to have access to abortions--safe and legal abortions. Christians have no right to try and take that away.

Gay marriage doesn't hurt anybody whatsoever and Christians have no right to try and ban love between human beings.

Cigarettes otoh are a deadly poison sold openly to people by execs with no conscience who rake in millions a year if not billions, killing millions annually worldwide, poisoning even those who choose not to smoke and Christians don't seem to find this immoral enough to organize against it.

I'm saying if they REALLY care about doing something good for humanity then go after something like that and stop trying to hurt innocent people.

And I'm only talking about activist Christians. I don't care about nominal ones. This is for the ones who can't mind their own fucking business just have to try and save the whole world from itself. Christians who mind their own business I have no issue with.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 03:09 PM

Ah, yes, the great Yule Festival. What is now the Christmas holiday and celebration was indeed once a Pagan festival which celebrated the end of the longest night of the year in the northern hemisphere, Dec 22-23, and the subsequent return of the sun...as the days start getting longer after the winter solstice. It pre-existed Christianity for thousands of years...probably tens of thousands of years, in fact. The return of longer days is a VERY important event in Nature, as human life depends on the return of warm weather and the annual growing season.

The Romans grafted the Christian religion onto that ancient festival. It was common in those times to move a new religion onto old festival dates from previous religions.

I suspect they then added 3 days (Dec 23,24,25) to symbolize the 3 days that Christ supposedly lay in the tomb (or descended into Hades...whichever version you prefer) before rising on the symbolic 25th.

Interestingly enough, the old festival celebrated the rebirth of the sun (in the sky)....the new festival as designated by the Christians celebrated the rebirth of the Son (Jesus). I doubt that that was a mere coincidence. Many of the old religions saw the sun as a visible manifestation of God. Therefore God's sun = God's Son.

I am not stating my own beliefs here, merely speculating about some of the thinking that may have underlaid the Roman's decision to arbitrarily move Jesus' birthday to December 25th. His actual birthday appears to have been in the mid-Spring, not in December, so the Romans moved it to coincide with the Solstice celebrations...an adroit move, typical of the pragmatic Romans, who always knew how to combine religion and politics for maximum effect. ;-)

Amos, you said, "Well, LH, consider how much spice having a good enemy adds to life! How much drama!! Suddenly, there's tension, a plot, an obstacle to overcome, counter-forces to be out-manuvered! Intentions to be thwarted!! Survival to be gained!! Yaaaayyyyy, team!! Go, go, go!! Hurl 'em back to Nassau, Eli! Bulldog, bulldog!!"

True! Enemies are almost indispensible if you want a dramatic storyline in a book or a movie, aren't they? ;-) In real life, though, the truly wise man does not seek out enemies...unless he simply has no choice about the matter... Crazy Horse, for example, had no choice about the matter after a certain point of the White westward expansion, did he? (but being a Lakota Souix warrior, he would have sought out enemies regardless...they took doing that for granted...it was the path to honour and renown for warriors to fight enemies in that society)

And then you said, "But, of course, there really is only one Enemy, just as there is only one Friend and one God and one Mentor, and that is the Self.

Right on, brother. That's the hard, cold truth...but only one in 10,000 people will admit to it under most circumstances. People would always rather think the enemy is the "other guy", because it relieves them of all responsibility for their own actions, and it gives them full rein to hate, judge, and condemn.

Jesus (and Buddha) (and Krishna) advised against all of that kind of negative judgement of others, and, boy, was he (Jesus) detested by a lot of people for having done so! It ruins most people's fun totally when they hear his opinion on that matter. ;-) They just hate having their right to enjoy their hatred disallowed by some meddling holy man. Such holy men are to be considered lucky if they don't get crucified by an angry mob, matter of fact.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,Number 6
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 02:36 PM

Good to see some Wicca/Pagan input here in this thread!

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: haddocker
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 02:29 PM

There seems to be enough material here for a dissertation, if that is what GUEST Ed is aiming for, but I agree with stringsinger. This is starting to deteriorate from dialogue to verbal combat. Each one's spiritual journey is distinct from all others, regardless of the starting point. As far as God is concerned, it is all about relationship, and we all have that with God, in varying degrees. So, I must ask GUEST Ed as to what his journey is all about, as well as the origins of this vehement denial of God and Jesus the Christ. So, GUEST Ed, let's get personal. Also, I have to ask: "Why are you bringing such a subject up in a site dedicated to traditional music?"

Subject: Lyr Add: YULE (John F. Weldon)
From: john f weldon
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 01:07 PM

Aha, the discussion moves on to Yuletide, which of course, precedes Christianity by many millenia. Yule is for everyone! Here's a poem on the subject....


Yule: by John F. Weldon

When human hopes had just begun
In distant prehistoric times
We feared the fading of the sun
Especially in these Northern climes
For with the dark would come the chill
Frost and snow replacing rain
And we were left to wonder: Will
That sun e'er rise so high again?

And so we cut the deathless Pine
And hauled it to our cabins rude
And lit it up, that it would shine
Upon our gifts, and wine, and food.
The other Beasts looked on with scorn
That Man alone was such a fool
To celebrate the darkest morn
To dance and sing and call it Yule.

Yet all around the blazing Tree
Through chilly nights and shortened days
Mankind with cheerful revelry
Implored the sun to spread its Rays
And once a year, that darkest time
Mankind would thus enchant the sun
Which then would start its upward climb
Back when our dreams had just begun.

Now men have science and predict
The solstice and the equinox
To one ten-thousandth of a tick
With lasers and atomic clocks
Yet every year we quell our fears
With food and drink and song and dance
It works! The sun soon re-appears
So why then should we take a chance?

We'll toast with Mead, and Beer, and Stout
Wine and Whiskey, Rum and Gin!
For though the Winter howls without...
We'll keep the hope of spring within
So Bar the Door against the chill
Prepare that fine and mighty feast
For we were once and we are still
A puny, naked, frightened Beast.

Seasons greetings all!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 12:48 PM

Most atheists will not assert there is no God, only that the evidence available to them does not support postulating that there is one. That is a very different proposition.

One states a proposition is just plain false; the other states that a proposition is not reasonable based on evidence to date.

One is a statement of faith, while the other is an effort to bring reason to bear on data.

A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Folkiedave
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 12:36 PM

f there wasn't a God then why celebrate Christmas (the birth of Christ, the son of God) then.

1. We were celebrating at that time in the UK long before Jesus was born. It's the change from dark to light nights.

2. No evidence whatsoever when Jesus was born - except for certain it wasn't December 25th. Nor was it 0 BC - morel likely 5/6 BC

I wouldn't take the bible as gospel if I were you!!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 12:28 PM

One believes there is a God and one believes there is no God..so are both beliefs or not?

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: bobad
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 12:24 PM

"Fundamentalist Atheist as just as insane as Fundamentalist members of ANY Religion"

I don't agree with that statement, theism is a belief atheism is not.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Stringsinger
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 11:32 AM

I think now that this is not a dialogue here. A dialogue to me is an exchange of useful information, it isn't a pissing contest.

Having read Dawkins and seeing his lectures, I think he is not as combative as he is made out to be. I see him as being very sensitive to people. His biggest complaint is that religion is often forced on children before they have a chance to decide for themselves about belief. I think this is fair.

I don't think one can be persuaded on anything through insults and anger.

As to tobacco, I don't ever want to be around it. The problem is that it is a highly addictive drug and unfortunately is not limited to the user. It can be spread through side-stream smoke. I don't see this as a religious or non-religious issue. It's just common sense that
smoking doesn't serve any useful or positive purpose.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 11:24 AM

Well, there are plenty of reasons to celebrate Christmas that have nothing to do with Christ, amigo. The annual "We are surviving the cold white stuff", for example. Hope that there will be a Spring, at a time when it seems so far away. Celebrate human endurance, ingenuity, and the ability to survive on a cold piece of the planet. (At least, IIRC -- we don't do much cold here in San Diego).

Or, you could celbrate the spirit of human generosity and interdependent caring that comes to the fore during the season-when so many people bend over backwards to somehow find an object that will add to another's happiness and make or acquire it solely to give it to that person. That's a lot of human affinity, old son, and it requires no Godhead to be compelling.

Or, if you go in for that kind of thing, there's the annual opportunity to stroll down the street in a clump of friends singing. If you do that most times of the year you are likely to be condemned or even incarcerated. How's that for jolly?

Plus, there is the opportunity to gather up extra special foods and start a big family meal and have a roaring fire in the fireplace and sneak around looking at shiny wrapped packages. That's a hoot. Worth celebrating. Hell, just getting together with folks who are willing to say "I love you" is a fine annual event.

It also provides a great opportunity to do a yearly review on oneself to determine whether one has, in one's own estimation, been adequately nice or naughty, and determine a new course of action based on one's own best ethical perceptions of right living, right action, and so on.

Note that none of this requires any divine figures to jump into the mix.



A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: TheSnail
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 11:20 AM

Peace

Gentlemen: NOT in the presence of G-d.

Looks like the Flying Sphagetti Monster to me.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: goatfell
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 11:15 AM

As a Born again Christian (someone who is born again in Christ, and Christ lives in me and I in him) (preaching now Stop it) so as far as i'm conserernd (spelling) there's a God, if there wasn't a God then why celebrate Christmas (the birth of Christ, the son of God) then.

But then that is up to you.

I hope you all a merry Chrsitmas

and may your god/God go with you.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 11:07 AM

I don't see any benefit in having enemies, frankly.

Well, LH, consider how much spice having a good enemy adds to life! How much drama!! Suddenly, there's tension, a plot, an obstacle to overcome, counter-forces to be out-manuvered! Intentions to be thwarted!! Survival to be gained!! Yaaaayyyyy, team!! Go, go, go!! Hurl 'em back to Nassau, Eli! Bulldog, bulldog!!

And so on.

But, of course, there really is only one Enemy, just as there is only one Friend and one God and one Mentor, and that is the Self.

A

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 01:29 AM

The reason I come to all these threads, by the way, is simple, 282AR. Spirituality in all its various wonderful varieties fascinates me. I would rather talk about the spiritual nature of life and man than about anything else at all. As far as I'm concerned, it's the world's most interesting subject....and it is NOT dependent upon belief in any diety...though it can definitely go into that possibility.

If you were to study Taoism or Buddhism, for instance, you would find no deity. Taoism is the most sensible spiritual philosophy I've come across yet. Buddhism is very sensible too, but I like Taoism a bit better because it has a more cheerful outlook on life.

I am not a Taoist, but I like Taoism. I am not a Buddhist, but I like Buddhism. I am not a scientist, but I like scientific thought and scientific information. I am not a Christian, but I like the philosophy that Jesus appears to have taught (according to what writings we have about him). I am not a Hindu, but I like the writings in the Baghavad Gita and the Upanishads. There's much of value there. I'm not a Muslim, but I find much in value in their writings and their cultural history...quite aside from the fundamentalist extremes we see in some of their followers today.

I don't have the enemies that you seem to have. And I don't want to.

I don't see any benefit in having enemies, frankly.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Rustic Rebel
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 01:23 AM

I don't think tobacco companys have anything to do with Christianity. Why lay that on Christians alone?

Now don't go gettin off on me about this 282RA, I agree that tailor made cigarettes are nasty, chemically induced, and poisonous. I agree the tobacco co.'s should stop what they're doing to tobacco, but...

Tobacco has been around a long time used not only as a medicinal but it is considered sacred to certain cultures and used, for one example, by Shamans in ceremonial practice. Tobacco actually has a very interesting history to it.
Some might even say, um, God put it here on this earth.

Peace.
Rustic

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 01:18 AM

Fundamentalist Atheist as just as insane as Fundamentalist members of ANY Religion...

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Dec 07 - 01:16 AM

Great picture, Peace!

282RA - My, my, you are quite concerned about this, aren't you? Just as much as you claim that I am.

So who put the monkey on your back? ;-) Why can't you stay away from these threads and this subject?

I do not object to people stating that they are atheists. I object them trying to force everyone else to be one too by suggesting that everyone who isn't an atheist is an idiot...that is why I objected to the post that started this thread. As I've said many times, I would far rather be around some honest, dependable atheists, than some dishonest, undependable people who are religious! Underline that. Most of all, I'd rather be around honest, dependable people who live their own beliefs in peace and allow others to do the same. I ENJOY being in a society with many beliefs, many viewpoints. I don't WANT everyone to be the same.

I think you are suffering from the same problem you accuse me of...and if you want an understanding of why I'm interested in it, you need to read some advanced spiritual writings that Christian fundamentalists have never looked into in their lives and never will...but you never will either, because you're not uninterested in such writings. Just like I'm uninterested in Mr Dawkins. If he wants to convince me that fundamentalist Christians are wrong, he'd be telling me something I already knew a long, long time ago!!! ;-)

As far as I'm concerned you're railing at people similar to yourself (religious fundamentalists) because their fossilized attitude toward life and their rank prejudice toward those who don't share their values reminds you of yourself. It's the mirror-image of you. They hate you like you hate them.

Their left hand is your right hand, and vice versa.

Keep in mind, I'm talking rather dispassionately here. I see no reason to engage in the sort of highly emotional spewing of hatred and personal insults that our disagreement on this subject brings forth out of you...because what good would it do? And why should I hate you, just because we disagree about something?

It's not that important, believe me. There will be plenty of religious fundamentalists, plenty of atheists, and plenty of prejudice between them both long after you and I are dead and gone.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: number 6
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 11:49 PM

definately don't smoke in front of her (whether your wiccan, athiest, or whatever)!!

YIKES !!

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 11:40 PM

>>Ingredients in a cigarette.<<

A very partial list. But even ingredients as acetic acid--which I believe is just vinegar--is there for some reason and may seem harmless but, as the host of that site points out, who knows what it does to you when it's burned and drawn into the lungs and mixed with whatever else you're burning and drawing into your lungs with each puff?

I know when I leave a bar after playing an open mic show, I have to shuck off my clothes and shake them out before washing them and I don't dare go to bed without a good scrub-down in the shower. In the morning, I can still smell the shit because it's coating the insides of my nostrils and throat. I have to take a lot of time off between performances because I can't deal with it. I don't know how for the life of me people smoke that garbage day after day after day. I don't let people smoke in my house either. The last time someone did (my brother's wife who didn't even ask if it was okay before lighting up which pissed me off), I could smell it three days later. Smokers don't understand that nonsmokers' sense of smell is far more sensitive than theirs and that it just plain stinks like hell. They don't get it. They act like you're an asshole if you complain about it.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 11:26 PM

>>Gentlemen: NOT in the presence of G-d.<<

Holy shit, he looks pissed!

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 11:25 PM

>>One thing in cigarettes that they don't disclose is a fair amount of benzene.<<

They released a partial list some years ago, if I remember correctly and I think benzene was on that list. I think acetone was too. I mean, THAT's what they told us about. I can only wonder what they still decided to keep secret because benzine and acetone are two EXTREMELY toxic substances. Hell, nicotine is one of the most powerful poisons known to man.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 11:23 PM

Ingredients in a cigarette.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 11:17 PM

>>By the way, here's the big split that runs all through your handy monolithic view of Christianity, 242RA (and undoubtedly through your other monolithic groups as well):   get a bunch of Christians together and, unless it's some group like the Southern Baptist Leadership Conference (and although they make a lot of noise, there are not that many of them), you'll have a hard time getting them to agree on much of anything! That's why there are as many Christian denominations as there are.<<

Translation: Christianity is essentially useless because we can't even agree on what's moral and what isn't.

Thanks, that's EXACTLY what I've been bitching about.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Peace
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 11:17 PM

Gentlemen: NOT in the presence of G-d.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Donuel
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 11:11 PM

One thing in cigarettes that they don't disclose is a fair amount of benzene.

No duality if all is one?

Well vivre la diffrence anyway.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 11:09 PM

Little Hawk, your problem--and we talked about this before--is that you are a fundamentalist at heart. You are simply unable to accept an atheist or agnostic position. Whenever it is expressed, you become incensed and unable to deal with it in an intelligent manner. Let's take a look:

"But here's what I really think about it. People who start provocative, useless threads like this one should be doomed to eternal harassment by people exactly like themselves, but with precisely the opposite outward beliefs! Judgmental, self-righteous pests with a zeal to convert, in other words."

What is useless about someone expressing an opinion that there is no god? Nothing. It's a perfectly legitimate topic to post about if he wished to. There's no rule here that says he can't. You have NO RIGHT to berate someone this way. You do have the right to stay the fuck off the thread if the topic is of such little interest to you as you claim.

But it is of intense interest to you, isn't it? You CAN'T deal with people expressing an atheistic opinion. And your first resort is the incredibly childish "Oh I used to be that way when I was young and rebellious but not anymore" Translation: Only someone immature and needing attention is an atheist. Let's take a look:

"Amos, no, I haven't gotten around to reading Mr Dawkins yet. Why? His general premise (going by what I hear about him) just doesn't interest me enough to bother looking into it. There are a lot of other things I'm more likely to read before I get around to reading him. I mean, hell, I went through the "religion is all a bunch of crap" mindset when I was a teenager...and that was a long time ago. I think I've outgrown such crass and prejudicial attitudes, hopefully."

You have no idea what Dawkins has written and you don't care. You so outgrew this long ago and are so much more mature than people who express Dawkins' point of view. You are a pathetic little man and that should be your true moniker--Little Man. I berated you in private about this attitude of yours and you seemed to stop for a while but now you are back at it again full throttle. The arrogant one is you. The one who contributes nothing but judgmental bullshit is you.

You know this, so what you do is project that onto people who do not measure up to you oh-so-mature "I was blind but now I see" attitude.

Now let's examine your amazing self-righteousness in all its glory:

"Seriously....I know any number of nominal Christians who are against smoking and against the tobacco industry. I know a lot of Christians who DON'T think abortion is a bigger problem than the sale of tobacco."

Yes, let's introduce useless anecdotal evidence in an literally incredible, transparent, lame attempt to once again make your pronouncement that those who do not share your views of religion are arrogant and condemanatory.

"Get serious, man."

I am serious, man.

"Your efforts to pretend that you are not tarring a whole lot of innocent people needlessly with the same brush when you talk about what you call "Christians" are approaching an excess of satirical self-justification that would embarrass Jerry Lewis."

Even if this was true, I do not resort to the self-serving, arrogant attitude of "once I was like you, when I was young and stupid and needed something to rebel against but I grew out of it, so what's your problem?" As if anyone who is an atheist just hasn't grown up like you obviously have. You're a hypocrite besides being a complete asshole.

"Nothing can please someone with the kind of accusatory, condemnatory attitude you are bringing to this discussion."

The discussion is that there are no gods. You have no right to come here and act like I butted into some kind of Christian fellowship meeting. It is you who busted in and it is you who have brought an accusatory and condemnatory attitude here and I might add--VERY ARROGANT asshole attitude. Your whine comes more from the fact that I--someone whose views of religion you are unable to intelligently tolerate--made a suggestion to Christians that is actually very practical and that's what bugs you. How dare I--a mere little atheist bug--suggest something to Christians that you and they know they should have been doing long ago instead wasting time trying to hijack the republican party to push a shameless, self-serving agenda. They doesn't bug you, though, because at least they're not atheists.

>>It wouldn't matter what "Christians" did or didn't do, you'd still be bitching about them.<<

And it wouldn't matter what atheists do or don't do, you'd still mouth off your idiotic arrogant bullshit to them because you do it in every single post on the subject. The proof is that we've had this discussion before and you are still doing it. Now let's go back to your first insolent statement and see it for what it is:

"But here's what I really think about it. People who start provocative, useless threads like this one should be doomed to eternal harassment by people exactly like themselves, but with precisely the opposite outward beliefs! Judgmental, self-righteous pests with a zeal to convert, in other words."

That's exactly what he got: YOU.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 08:08 PM

Little Hawk said it. Saved me the trouble. Thank you, Little Hawk!

By the way, here's the big split that runs all through your handy monolithic view of Christianity, 242RA (and undoubtedly through your other monolithic groups as well):   get a bunch of Christians together and, unless it's some group like the Southern Baptist Leadership Conference (and although they make a lot of noise, there are not that many of them), you'll have a hard time getting them to agree on much of anything! That's why there are as many Christian denominations as there are.

Gotta broaden your focus and try to learn what the world is really like.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: number 6
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 07:40 PM

Haven't heard any opinions from any of the Wiccans regarding this thread.

biLL

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 07:22 PM

Heh! Well, 282RA, why don't you convert to Christianity then, and start organizing all the Christians you can to join in massive public action against the tobacco industry? The mere fact that you are standing aside may be what's holding them back!!! ;-) They NEED your leadership and inspiration, man!

Seriously....I know any number of nominal Christians who are against smoking and against the tobacco industry. I know a lot of Christians who DON'T think abortion is a bigger problem than the sale of tobacco. Get serious, man. Your efforts to pretend that you are not tarring a whole lot of innocent people needlessly with the same brush when you talk about what you call "Christians" are approaching an excess of satirical self-justification that would embarrass Jerry Lewis.

Nothing can please someone with the kind of accusatory, condemnatory attitude you are bringing to this discussion. It wouldn't matter what "Christians" did or didn't do, you'd still be bitching about them.

And note, 282RA...I am not a Christian. I'm just a free being who recognizes blind prejudice when I hear it, that's all.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: GUEST,282RA
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 06:57 PM

>>>Blow it off all you want, 282RA, but "they-ing" is the primary reason people are oppressing each other and killing each other all over the world. Always has been and probably always (at least until everybody kills everybody else off) will be.

Cramming a large part of the world's population into one conveniently labeled pigeonhole is a way of not having to bother to think.<<<

No, I'm not falling for that. I'm not going to qualify my statements that I don't mean this Christian or that because then all of them start think "He doesn't mean me." Yes, I do. Christians have proven they can organize and coordinate their activities so I don't want to hear this "We're not all doing that." Doesn't matter. They're supposed to be Christians, they're supposed to care, they're supposed to be moral. Very well, then, organize a movement to shut down the tobacco companies--put them out of business. No mercy, no exceptions. Do it.

If they want power, they will have it like they never had it before. March in the streets, write articles, pressure politicians, out the ones that do the bidding of these companies and threaten to boot their asses out into the cold without so much as a fig leaf for protection. Go on TV and bitch about what these people are doing. DEMAND the govt release a FULL LIST of EVERYTHING that these executive meth lab operators put in cigarettes (it's currently illegal to release a full list, anyone who does will go to prison) so that people can see what crap is being peddled to them that they are not being told about. Show interviews with the cancer-stricken.

For once, Christians and scientists will be on the same side. Many people will quit smoking once they see what is being done to them. Prosecute the people responsible for the madness, show how much money is saved every year not having to treat so many cancer patients.

To regard abortion as a bigger menace to society than cigarettes reveals a bankrupt morality. But going after the tobacco giants is something Christians of all stripes can unite on.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 06:51 PM

Yes, and things go stale when they're left in the package too long... ;-)

Donuel, perhaps it is one God manfisting in the forms OF duality: both infinite and finite, both here and there, both light and darkness, both "good" and "evil".

We need duality, you see, otherwise we wouldn't be able to distinguish our separate existence or the separate existence of anything else! We wouldn't have anything else to compare ourselves to.

They say that enlightenment is achieving the awareness that there is no duality, that all is One. At that point, all strife ends, all desire ends, there is only pure Being.

Subject: RE: BS: There aren't any Gods (not even Jesus)
From: Amos
Date: 05 Dec 07 - 06:33 PM

No, not at all, M. Hack. Why should I be? We have a rich dialogue with far-seeing, deeply-feeling people offering their views. As it happens I am more on the side of Peace and perhaps Polytheism than I am on the side of any particular religious package. But hell, I am never at a loss for words, sir, as I am sure you know by now.

Here's some for ya: The problem with packaged religions is that packaging spoils all the flavor.


A