UK 60s Folk Club Boom?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 02:15 PM

If you really want to end this circular argument, stop stating that the folk scene is dead then! As long as you keep repeating that, I will keep disputing it. It is no good you saying you want to end it and then coming up with the same old thing at every opportunity

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 01:14 PM

" they are still sung would be non-cop and could be considered folk songs."
They can only be "considered" folk songs if they are absorbed as part of communities with a living tradition that enables them to become folk songs
Surely you're not suggesting that every song over 7 years old is or can become a folk song
Dave - Manchester hasn't had a living tradition since at least the middle of the Industrial Revolution
You don't "age" into a folk sog, you evolve into one - passively receiving and repeating parrot fashion would make 'God Save the Queen' and 'Happy Birthday to you folk songs - absorption, acceptance and ownership are part of the proicess
Sorry - unless we stop repeating things at each other I really have no desire to continue this
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 12:47 PM

Are we in a pantomime Jim? Oh yes it can. Oh no it can't! :-)

Of course copyrighted songs can be absorbed into folk communities. I gave you two examples and there are many more.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 12:31 PM

Can I just add that at present, I'm exploring the possibility of setting an on-line workshop in cooperation with our local heritage group - OaC, exchanging both ideas and recorded material
My technical knowledge is extremely limited but I think i might be possible
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 12:30 PM

Jim,

It would appear that copyright on a song at present lasts until 70 years -it used to be much less- after the death of the author. Therefore it would appear that in 40 years time any of Ewan's songs if they are still sung would be non-cop and could be considered folk songs.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 12:27 PM

Dick
In my experience, Festival workshops consist of groups of people being handed song-sheets of songs they may or may not know or even like, and asked them to sing them parrot-fashion
In a weekend festival situation, there is no time for the necessary follow-up work - it really can't be done in a matter of hours.
Lewes has a club wich is what I'm advocating for
These workshops, once established are simplicity itself given the generosity of those prepared to help and the trust of those wanting to be helped
It can actually be done on a one-on-one basis, but groups are far more efficient - that way, both helpers and helped benefit
Pat and I set up a couple when we gave talks at the two Ewan MacColl weekends in Salford - enjoyable and productive but each time, desperately in need of follow-up work
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 12:20 PM

Fiddlers green, caledonia, two comosed modern songs ,hav been mistaken by many as folk songs, and have been sungs with an assumption they were irish trad songs at cce competitions and GAA IRISH SONG COMPETITIONS, and the judges never realised

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 12:16 PM

but this needs encouragement and practical help - you really won't get that on a scene based on festivals and paid gigs"
i can give you two examples that contradict this statement, southend folk club which at that time was run by red and myra abbott, gave and paid for singers, out of club funds the opportunity to go to festival workshops to improve their singing
LEWES FOLK CLUB, runs workshops to encourage and help singers and musicians
Fastnet Maritime AND FOLK Festival , WHICH FOR 8 YEARS PROVIDED SUBSIDISED WORKSHOPS, to help and encourage musicians.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 11:56 AM

"that can never happen to copyrighted songs".
Of course it can't today Dave - how can it ?

Moving on
Howard - been meaning to respond to your point for some time
The scene you describe was certainly not mine the ealy clubs based themselves largely on what became available after the BBC project - there may have been quibbles as to how that should be performed but there was little argument as to what it was.
Music Hall and Victorian parlour ballads hardly ever featured - the Topic output is evidence of that
I can'r recall hearing much in the four three cities I've lived in
When Dylan arrived on the scene singing songs based on folk songs the clubs divided - in Manchester, you wanted traditional stuff you went to one of Harry Boardman's clubs (I was resident at two - you wanted singer-songwriter stuff you went to The Shaespeare Head or the MSG (on nights where they booked em' - they kept si.S. and trad separate
I desperately tried to like Dylan because al my mates did but found his compositions trite and meaningless
His early protest songs I could take or leave (lovely article by a writer who called himself 'Jack Speedwell' summed him up perfectly in one of Dallas's magazines.
I stopped trying to like him when I read an article by American actor/singer Theodore Bikel describing how this 'protest singer' refused to accompany Seeger and co South to take part in the sit-in Civil Rights Protests until he was handed his fare publicly and couldn't refuse
When Baez's biography came out Dylan was exposed as using his friends as a stairway to stardom - in the end he found his place in history a a pop singer - 'It's all Over Now, baby Blue' was his exit song
The two styles of 'folk' co-existed rather than co-operated
Sing-around clubs were virtually unheard of

You raised an interesting point on the toxic thread - how can you bring new singers on without offending audiences who turned up to hear reasonably sung songs
After the setting up of The Critics Group, a dozen or so similar ventures sprang up I ran one in Manchester before I left for London
MacColl and the Critics were urging clubs to assist less experienced singers and people began to volunteer to do so
I'd been in London about a month when Dick Snell knocked on my door asking could we work together
I agree with you totally that anybody can sing - but this needs encouragement and practical help - you really won't get that on a scene based on festivals and paid gigs
Sorry if I missed anything else you asked
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 11:22 AM

I think the figure of 160 clubs is suspect. A quick look at the North West Federation of Folk Clubs website shows around 50 in this region alone.

http://www.folknorthwest.co.uk/club_page.htm

These are only clubs which are members of the federation so there are probably others.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 10:46 AM

It is the changes and adaptations that that create folk songs, not repetition

Of course it is. What we disagree about is "that can never happen to copyrighted songs". Of course it can and has on many occasions. The definition contains no such exclusion. In fact it specifically says it can likewise be applied to music which has originated with an individual composer. Any song after copyright was introduced is likely to be copyrighted by the individual composer and many of those have now been absorbed into folk communities. Are you trying to tell us that "The Manchester Rambler" has not been absorbed into Manchester folklore? Or that "Fiddlers Green" is not sung as a folk song in venues all around the coast?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jack Campin
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 10:33 AM

Illustration of Dave and Howard's point: an event I played at last year was a party-cum-house-concert that was never advertised in any public medium. In a large top floor flat, it must have had more people packed in than Edinburgh and Leith Folk Clubs could ever have fitted into their venues put together (one guy in our band is a civil engineer who specializes in the conservation of historic structures - he spent much of the evening gripping the windowsill calculating floor loadings in his head). Almost all the music played fitted the 1954 definition though none of it was from the British Isles or North America (that might well come, some other time). I can't imagine anybody there would have thought "pity this isn't a folk club".

The impression I get from the early publications of the postwar folk scene is that nobody involved expected clubs to be more than a transient phenomenon. They were right: the clubs had a job to do, they did it, end of story.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 10:28 AM

"What is your problem with a songwriter copyrighting his/her own work? "
None whatever, but while it is owned it will never be a folk song

"You seem to keep missing that point."
No Dave - you are - this is the point
"been absorbed into the unwritten living tradition of a community."

The 45 definition (which I never discuss or use) talk about songs being adapted and changed and taken on by communities as their own - that can never happen to copyrighted songs - they always belong to someone other than 'the folk'
It is the changes and adaptations that that create folk songs, not repetition
Much more to it than that, of course

As long as you keep putting forward 180 cli=uns as a healthy scene, we have no grounds for discussion
A scene dominated by Festivals and paid singers is the antithesis of a healthy scene
Howard raised an important question on the toxic thread concerning how you follow up the idea that 'anybody can sing' (which I heartily agree with) by not upsetting audiences that come to hear a reasonable level of singing
Quite honestly, I think it far more fruitful to follow that uo rhater than go around in these ever-decreasing circles and ending up disappearing upour own jaxies
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,Hootenanny
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 09:51 AM

Jim,from your post above

"Most newly written songs cone with a little (c) which confines their use to where the copyright cowboys can't reach"

What is your problem with a songwriter copyrighting his/her own work?

If Ewan hadn't done so with "The First Time Ever" I am sure that he would have been considerably less well off than he was following the hit recording. With luck his estate is still earning reasonably well and why shouldn't it?

From what Peggy states in one of her books she and Ewan were pretty chuffed when they received the first royalty cheque from that song.

Do you have any personal knowledge of how royalties collection works?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 09:40 AM

Clubs are now only part of the picture. You seem to keep missing that point. The 160 clubs are in addition to the hundreds of other ways that live folk music can now be enjoyed.

Your definition is the 1954 definition which, for all its weaknesses, bears no resemblance to what happens in the majority of your 160 clubs

The 1954 definition includes contemporary folk song and songs which have been absorbed into the community.

The term can be applied to music that has been evolved from rudimentary beginnings by a community uninfluenced by popular and art music and it can likewise be applied to music which has originated with an individual composer and has subsequently been absorbed into the unwritten living tradition of a community.

Your definition specifically excludes contemporary folk song. That is the whole bone of contention. I am happy to accept this definition and can confirm that music that fits this definition is readily available at many places, including but not limited to folk clubs, all across the country.

As long as you keep making sweeping statements about the current folk scene that I disagree with I shall keep pulling you up on it. And if you keep saying that I have not defined it or I am happy with any old rubbish I shall keep refuting that too. Sorry but that is the way I am.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 09:23 AM

Dave,
I see litle point in continuing a discussion with anybody who believes 160 Folk clubs represents a healthy scene - especially as most of them have little to do with folk song proper
Your definition is the 1954 definition which, for all its weaknesses, bears no resemblance to what happens in the majority of your 160 clubs in your healthy folk scene.
I see little point in all this - when I get time I'm going to deal with Howard's earlier posting amnd his interesting question on the toxic thread
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 09:10 AM

you have yet to define what you are talking about

I have defined what I was talking about on a number of occasions and you keep denying it. The latest was 19 Feb 19 - 06:18 AM It is there for all to see so why do you keep saying I have not defined it?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Iains
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 09:06 AM

If the hoary handed sons of the soil in days of yore had the same   opportunities as available today, they would have been after copyright and a few bob just like rats up a drainpipe. The world has changed. To have traditional means of generating folksongs means to be trapped in a timewarp. To use a word such as traditional has the implicit meaning that the genre is fossilized.
What gives anyone the right to say that a modern derivative is in some way pseudo or even fake.
The car has replaced the horse. Does anyone have a problem with that?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 08:46 AM

Oh, and 300! :-)

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 08:46 AM

Jim. The article clearly states that "The number of clubs began to decline in the 1980s, in the face of changing musical and social trends. In London Les Cousins in Greek Street, where John Renbourn often played, and The Scots Hoose in Cambridge Circus, were both casualties.[13] The Singers Club (George IV, Lincoln's Inn) closed its doors in 1993.

The decline began to stabilise in the mid-1990s with the resurgence of interest in folk music..."

So, the early 90s to which you refer were already on the decline and reached it's low in the mid 90s. As well as the decline through the 80s, it also makes the point that folk clubs are changing so, even though you may not accept that, it is a fact of life. Given what Howard and a number of other people have said about new venues, concerts and all sorts of other options there is plenty of actual evidence from people on the ground here in England that the picture is nowhere near as bleak as you paint it.

Sorry that you have lost a number of traditional clubs and feel that you can no longer participate in the music you prefer at folk clubs but there is still plenty of good quality folk music, of all types, for the rest of us to enjoy.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 08:25 AM

"160 folk clubs"
My point exactly Dave
There were that many within a driving distance of my home in London at the beginning of the 1990s - and I would guess that would be the case in all the major cities
Taking the examples of what constitutions 'folk song' and add that to what is being argued for here, I would think a quarter of that figure would be a generous guess at how many of those 160 clubs cater for folk song lovers (I know what I mean by folk song - nobody has come up with an alternative yet) You are dinging yourself into a very deep hole here.
There is not enough traditional song on line to even scratch the surface of the riches that have been commented
Where can I 'download' any good traditional material - I can listen to a little
The fact that Terry Yarnell and I can't give away one of the largest and wide-ranging collections of traditional song, music, workshops, articles, films.... of traditional music in private hands says what needs to be said about the current interest in it.
I am talking about traditional and traditional based songs - anybody can write a song in any form and call it folk - the term has become totally meaningless
Most newly written songs cone with a little (c) which confines their use to where the copyright cowboys can't reach
I am concerned about folk song; full stop - you have yet to define what you are talking about
Folk song as an art form, reaches far beyond the DWINDLING clubs - it is what is says it is THE VOICE OF THE PEOPLE
That is what is being silenced by this apathy and indifference
Both irresponsible and sad
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 07:55 AM

We also have the issue of what is defined as folk. I think Jim will correct me if I am wrong but I think he is defining folk as traditional only and that could well be on the decline. But the rest of us are, I think, encompassing contemporary folk as well. As I said before, we all could be part right. Maybe traditional folk is being superseded by contemporary folk just as the old style folk clubs are being superseded by the new. Not good if you want to preserve the old songs but good for the development the new!

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 07:40 AM

If you measure the strength of the folk scene only by the number of folk clubs you'll get a very misleading view of what is going on. Whilst the old-style folk clubs are diminishing in number (along with the old-style folkies who attend them) the folk scene is developing in other ways. There are still plenty of clubs in the old style, run by younger people, but also more concerts in venues other than the back room of pubs. House concerts are widespread, but are often only advertised by word of mouth so they remain under the radar. The programme of folk festivals is full throughout much of the year, and these range from large concert events with headline names to small sessions of traditional singing and playing. There is plenty going on, with something for everyone.

As well as performances, there are plenty of workshops in singing and playing at venues all around the country, so the opportunities to learn are much greater than when I started out, when I had to teach myself.

Young people are involved in large numbers, and often sing and play to a far higher standard. They're just not doing it in the old folk clubs.

Young people in particular don't buy CDs, they download music to their phones. More than 1/3 of the sales of my band's CD have come via the internet, although admittedly that includes purchases of physical CDs. Our music has been listened to in more than 30 countries world-wide, thanks to being online.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 07:33 AM

it's full of folk superstars with no reference to the clubs

Jim, did you not even read the bit I posted? The one that says

The decline began to stabilise in the mid-1990s with the resurgence of interest in folk music and there are now over 160 folk clubs in the United Kingdom, including many that can trace their origins back to the 1950s including The Bridge Folk Club in Newcastle (previously called the Folk Song and Ballad club) claims to the oldest club still in existence in its original venue (1953)

How is that not referring to folk clubs?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 07:28 AM

" can also refer you to the Wiki article which you previously dismissed that states"
You can - and it's full of folk superstars with no reference to the clubs
Desperate measures Dave
You have the alternative - dwindling clubs, disappearing membership, desperately low sales of traditional material - and all the excuses that have been put up here
As far as folk song proper, the scene is virtually dead - even EFDSS has walked away from it
Of all the things I have put up, what is inaccurate - low numbers, disappearing clubs, a shift to paid performers, hostility towards traditional songs..... all from these arguments
Have I lied - have I dreamed these arguments ?
Wiki my arse
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 06:55 AM

I can also refer you to the Wiki article which you previously dismissed that states

The decline began to stabilise in the mid-1990s with the resurgence of interest in folk music and there are now over 160 folk clubs in the United Kingdom, including many that can trace their origins back to the 1950s including The Bridge Folk Club in Newcastle (previously called the Folk Song and Ballad club) claims to the oldest club still in existence in its original venue (1953)

Going on to say

The nature of surviving folk clubs has also changed significantly, many larger clubs use PA systems, opening the door to use of electric instruments, although drums and full electric line-ups remain rare. The mix of music often includes American roots music, blues, British folk rock, and world music as well as traditional British folk music. From 2000 the BBC Radio 2 folk awards have included an award for the best folk club

You can dismiss Wiki articles all you like but, until you come up with a valid alternative, I am going to take this one at face value.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 06:33 AM

I agree that his CD sales are down but I thought we were talking folk club scene, not CD sales, Jim. How can CD sales from a web site be indicative of folk club attendance?

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 06:07 AM

How can a declaration by a site owner that his sames of traditional material be 'anecdotal' Dave - maybe he doesn't count how many he sells !!
The scene levelled out after the 60s and created a foundation for folk music
That was still reasonably healthy well into the 1980s and beyond
This depressing situation is very much a part of what is happening today
Think I'll go out for some fresh air
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 06:02 AM

I started a thread based on Rod Stradling's declarations of plummeting sales

That is anecdotal, Jim.

anecdotal
Dictionary result for anecdotal
/?an?k'd??tl/
adjective
adjective: anecdotal

    (of an account) not necessarily true or reliable, because based on personal accounts rather than facts or research.

I agree entirely that the heady days of the 60s folk club boom is well gone but since the turn of the millennium the folk scene has been showing a steady growth. Albeit not in the direction you want it grow.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 05:58 AM

The attendance figures have plummeted - Can't remember if you are one of them, but some have excused this as 'oldies dying off' so someone seems to agree with me
The clubs have diminished in number - acknowledged by people who clain that festivals are the thing now or people are singing at home (this information has been gathered by spy cameras presumably)
THere can be litle doubt that people have turned away from folk song by the number of people who make excuses for there being no guarantee to hear a folk song in a folk club any more
Not anecdotal Dave - actual statements here
I started a thread based on Rod Stradling's declarations of plummeting sales - more figures
People are not only not willing to discuss this situation, but resort to insults when the matter is raised
You are one of the 'good guys' as far as I'm concerned, yet your persistent complacency depresses me - "if you want to hear good folk songs come to Yorkshire" is just that
EFDSS had always been the butt of jokes - now they have even ceased to be funny
An the research side, we have ivory tower researchers who respond to criticism with patronising and insulting and seem to have dedicated themselves to tearing down all past work to make room for their own - Dave Harker's 'Hit-list technique.
Discussions like this have made me more-or-less write off the English folk scene - my concern is now for the survival of what I consider the most important of our art forms
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 05:08 AM

What arguments and figures, Jim? The arguments of those that actually attend folk clubs maybe? And the only figures I have seen indicate that we are in the process of a growth in folk music and changes to how it is presented. What figures do you have that indicate otherwise. All I have seen from you is anecdotal evidence.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 04:51 AM

" Others disagree as we can see from this thread"
Yeah well - they would wouldn't they
Unfortunately, their own arguments contradict them - as do the figurs
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 04:41 AM

a rapidly diminishing folk scene in Britain

Only according to some. Others disagree as we can see from this thread

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Iains
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 04:33 AM

Someone is being precious about their precious!

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 02:38 AM

I'll look in later to see if anybody has anything to offer other than personal insults
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 21 Feb 19 - 02:22 AM

"Please note that this is one person shouting from the wilderness"
How arrogant can you get
Mudcat is a tiny corner of a rapidly diminishing folk scene in Britain Steve
If all you have to offer are disparaging comments like this it you are representative of the wilderness
No wonder folk song is in the state it is in The UK
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 04:54 PM

Guest: You're going to be put off by one person's opinions? Please note that this is one person shouting from the wilderness. There are very few here who follow that doctrine.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 04:45 PM

Jim I have not insulted you, youwere a friend of MacColls, you do give useful help on the other hand you do on occasions give the impression of a know all or someone who has a hot line to the almighty, cop on Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 02:52 PM

"Just statements of opinion given as fact."
Well no actually
The term 'hack' was applied to broadside poetry centuries ago to describe their bad poetry - the writers were expected to work at conveyor-belt speed tu churn out songs for profit- largely it is trite, artless and formulaic
As a singer I spent many weeks searching our own published collections of broadside (about 30 volumes, for songs to sing and came up with zilch   
The few that were singable were almost certainly the other way of the "two way street" described by the New Age researchers - but nobody knows which was which for certain
Child came up with a perfect description of them "Dunghills with a few diamond in their midst"
Not my opinion - a very common one
Do you really have to reduce this to personal insults Dick - pack it in please
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 01:42 PM

[ Guest]Jim Carroll was a close friend of MacColl, he has also done some collecting of songs from travellers, he gives the impression of having a hot line to the almighty at times, on the oither hand he does give people on this forum helpful information regarding singing technique etc

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 01:30 PM

Quote - "The broadside "hacks" earned their title because they were poor poets working at great speed"

No 'I think that....' No 'It could be that...." Just statements of opinion given as fact. Who is this man? I was thinking of joining this forum but I think this will be my last visit.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 07:01 AM

"the talented broadside makers who composed so many of them."
The broadside "hacks" earned their title because they were poor poets working at great speed - the collections of their works show that pretty clearly
There is viritually no evidence as to which folk songs started on the presses and which were taken from already existing forms and rewritten for urban audiences   
The themes and structures of our folk songs, the insider knowledge and the use of vernacular suggest that most of them came from the communities they depicted
The question of literacy still needs to e discussed fully
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Feb 19 - 06:49 AM

Quote ""Tradition" is the largely oral process that first led to the making, remaking and changing of the songs whose origins are virtually untraceable and unattributable"

I like this definition. It is a pity, though that we will never be able to credit the talented broadside makers who composed so many of them.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 11:33 AM

Stanron - of course
Isn,t Stanton in New Jersey (according to Brecht)
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 11:27 AM

Thanks fro your explanation Stanton - my mistake
Jim

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 10:36 AM

I wouldn't write off his or anybody's cmpositions as being insignificat to the human condition as you have "Seeds of Love"

I didn't say it was insignificant. (I didn't say Lady Gaga was insignificant, either). I said it didn't fit what you claimed were the basic features of traditional song texts - named people with identifiable occupations doing things that fitted into the traditional economy. [18 Feb 19 - 04:01 AM, I'm not going to quote it all].

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Stanron
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 10:06 AM

Jim Carroll wrote: Stanron
A little more than that unless you disregard the likelihood of people making songs to record everyday events, experiences, emotions and aspirations

May I refer you to my third paragraph.

"It has also been a vehicle for creative people to comment on current society and some of that will, almost inevitably, eventually attain the 'old songs' and old tunes' status.
"

Woody Guthrie did this, I'm not sure about Tom Lehrer, McColl did it retrospectively as did Eric Bogle. Many 'Singer Songwriters' put themselves forward and only time will tell who gets to last a long time. The famine, and also the Scottish clearances were such traumatic events it would be surprising if no songs survived. Time, and work such as yours, allows the cream to rise to the surface.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 09:39 AM

I have no quibble with your description other than you seem to be talking about traditional folk song while I am encompassing traditional and contemporary, which is where our wires seem to be crossed.

Please clarify your phrase that you can go to a folk club and hear no folk songs. Are you talking about hearing no traditional songs or hearing no folk songs of either type?

You have recently agreed that you would be happy with an evening of Ewan MacColl, Vin Garbutt and Cyril Tawney songs at a folk club. You would obviously unhappy with an evening of Buddy Holly songs. My point about "between MacColl and Holly", as I have explained before, is that there are millions of songs between those extremes. I was trying to determine at which point does contemporary music become unnacceptable at folk clubs.

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 09:20 AM

No Dick, my accent is Tyneside, not Wearside- South Shields, my hometown is at least 5 miles from Sunderland, with a seriously different accent- Sunderland is the nearest point on Wearside- I might be a mackem in supporting Sunderland FC but I don't talk about it.....


I don't agree there is such a thing as a Scottish accent- it's just as daft as referring to an English accent!! Or an Irish one, nor that matter- you should know that- I certainly do after living in West Cork, Leitrim & Fermanagh!!

Subject: RE: UK 60s Folk Club Boom?
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 19 Feb 19 - 09:12 AM

Stanron
A little more than that unless you disregard the likelihood of people making songs to record everyday events, experiences, emotions and aspirations
I can think of no other group of 'old songs and old tunes'
Songs created following the Irish famine and the period up to Irish independence represent a large body, if not the majority of the Irish folk song repertoire - they bristle with social history and aspirations
The tunes are incidental

"So was Schoenberg's "Gurrelieder", or Stravinsky's "Les Noces","
My point exactly - not imressed with Schoenberg particularly, but I wouldn't write off his or anybody's cmpositions as being insignificat to the human condition as you have "Seeds of Love"
In factJohn England's rendition is a latecomer on the scene; part of a line of versions stacked full of folk imagery - try 'THe Gairdener Child', the song at its best

I just want you to respond to the description I have given and, if you have no quibble with it, let me know how that fits in with what you expect from a folk club - I think you talked about "somewhere between MacColl and Buddy Holly
Not sure what you mean, especially as neither wrote folk songs and the latter was a million miles from doing so
Jim