BS: Justice for the Gurkhas/Bravest of the Brave

Subject: RE: BS: Justice for the Gurkhas/Bravest of the Brave
From: Teribus
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 05:57 PM

"The way I had this episode described: they went over the battlefield at Goose Green slitting the throats of wounded and defenceless Argentinian soldiers while wearing Walkmans to drown out the screams."

Taking the first one Campin Jack, I think that they would have a bit of trouble doing that, don't you? For a start to slit someone's throat, whether wearing a "walkman" or not, you would first and foremost have to be there.

From account of the action at Goose Green:
The British force consisted of three rifle, one patrol, one support and the HQ company of Lieutenant-Colonel Herbert 'H' Jones' 2nd Battalion the Parachute Regiment (2 Para) which had the following support: three 105mm artillery pieces with 960 shells from 29 Commando Regiment, Royal Artillery; one MILAN anti-tank missile platoon; Scout helicopters, and at dusk, air support was provided by three Royal Air Force Harriers later in the battle. HMS Arrow shelled the Argentine advanced positions. Lieutenant-Colonel Jones commanded the battalion.

Account of Initial Landing:
The 4,000 men of 3 Commando Brigade were put ashore as follows: 2nd battalion of the Parachute Regiment (2 Para) from the RORO ferry Norland and 40 Commando (Royal Marines) from the amphibious ship HMS Fearless were landed at San Carlos (Blue Beach), 3 Para from the amphibious ship HMS Intrepid were landed at Port San Carlos (Green Beach) and 45 Commando from RFA Stromness were landed at Ajax Bay (Red Beach). Notably the waves of 8 LCUs and 8 LCVPs were led by Major Ewen Southby-Tailyour who had commanded the Falklands detachment only a year previously. 42 Commando on the liner SS Canberra was a tactical reserve. Units from the Royal Artillery, Royal Engineers etc. and tanks were also put ashore with the landing craft, the Round table class LSL and mexeflote barges. Rapier missile launchers were carried as underslung loads of Sea Kings for rapid deployment.

By dawn the next day they had established a secure beachhead from which to conduct offensive operations. From there Brigadier Thompson's plan was to capture Darwin and Goose Green before turning towards Port Stanley. Now, with the British troops on the ground, the Argentine Air Force began the night bombing campaign against them using Canberra bomber planes until the last day of the war (14 June).

Any mention there of 1st Battalion of the 7th Gurkhas Jack?? They were the only ones down there, so how did they manage to wander around slitting the throats of wounded men??

Gurkhas by the bye were deployed when they did land to West Falkland where there was no fighting at all, on the advance to Stanley they took part on the advance on Mount William on the right flank of the Scots Guards who fought to take Mount Tumbledown, 45 Commando Royal Marines were on their left flank.

"Maybe no more murderously ghoulish than much of what British soldiers have done in the last couple of decades, but let's cut this sanctificatory crap. They were hired killers in it for the money just like the rest of the British Army."

Here is the position on that bit of arrant nonsense - Under international law, according to Protocol 1 Additions to the Geneva Conventions of 1949, Gurkhas serving as regular uniformed soldiers are not mercenaries.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice for the Gurkhas/Bravest of the Brave
From: Mississippi Saxaphone
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 07:17 AM

Great news indeed. Common sense has prevailed.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice for the Gurkhas/Bravest of the Bra
From: GUEST,Lauro
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 06:48 AM

Nice to see so much support for men who take up arms and kill. So cutting throats is okay with you guys ?

Subject: RE: BS: Justice for the Gurkhas/Bravest of the Brave
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 05:17 AM

A statue as a tribute to the Gurkhas' bravery, courage and loyalty will be unveiled in Maidstone tomorrow.

Well, slagging off Joanna Lumley makes a change from slagging off mudcat members! LOL. No need for any of it though.

Wars are terrible things and atrocities happen on both sides. My father worked with the Gurkhas and his experiences with them are different to those that were described to Jack Campin.

hired killers in it for the money just like the rest of the British Army.

No, that is not a fair description of the British Army.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice for the Gurkhas/Bravest of the Bra
From: GUEST,Lauro
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 05:15 AM

Penny,if an older guy favours much younger women, he tends to get called a dirty old man. When an old rough one like this woman chases young guys people like yourself tend to ignore it.

Sorry I strongly disagree with the decision and these cutthroats as Jack pointed out are no assest to us.

You say her father was an officer in the regiment, was he a Tiddy Wink ?

Subject: RE: BS: Justice for the Gurkhas/Bravest of the Brave
From: Penny S.
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 04:33 AM

Joanna Lumley was involved because her father was an officer with the Gurkhas. Having met her in the village where her parents lived, the description above is pretty nasty. She would go round the village with a binbag picking up other people's rubbish. She was very sympathetic to my sister, when she was heavily pregnant with twins and had to rest at some local do. She's a very nice person.

And I agree with the decision, and the judge's opinion about honour.

I gather that our own nationals also used rather nasty methods to deal with the Argentinians. Nasty business all round. As is the way that most nations deal with ex-military.

Did anyone notice the name of the barrister put up by the government to oppose the case? Very indigenous.

Penny

Subject: RE: BS: Justice for the Gurkhas/Bravest of the Bra
From: GUEST,Lauro
Date: 01 Oct 08 - 04:32 AM

Ah isn't that nice. Thanks Jack for that gem of information.


"The way I had this episode described: they went over the battlefield at Goose Green slitting the throats of wounded and defenceless Argentinian soldiers while wearing Walkmans to drown out the screams".

They will do well in Britains knife society. I think we are around three a week in London, four a week in Manchester and twice that in Bradford.

Great, more leeches, and leeches that can use a blade !

Subject: RE: BS: Justice for the Gurkhas/Bravest of the Brave
From: Jack Campin
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 07:17 PM

: As an ex-serviceman, I am naturally biased in favour of the Gurkhas, for whom I have
: great admiration and respect. They put the fear of God up the Argentinian soldiers
: during the Falklands War (apparently), and I'm not surprised---their reputation
: as fighters,especially at close quarters,is legendary.

The way I had this episode described: they went over the battlefield at Goose Green slitting the throats of wounded and defenceless Argentinian soldiers while wearing Walkmans to drown out the screams.

Maybe no more murderously ghoulish than much of what British soldiers have done in the last couple of decades, but let's cut this sanctificatory crap. They were hired killers in it for the money just like the rest of the British Army.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice for the Gurkhas/Bravest of the Brave
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 06:25 PM

Actually it was a dozen posts back.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice for the Gurkhas/Bravest of the Brave
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 06:22 PM

Great news.

Good to have something on which we can all agree, whatever our differences about other things. (I set aside that odd GUEST a couple of posts back.)

Subject: RE: BS: Justice for the Gurkhas/Bravest of the Bra
From: GUEST,Oakville
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 06:21 PM

I saw it on the news tonight. I saw that old tart Joanna Lumley RAF (Rough as F**k) who is normally fond of young men moving among them. Is an old Gurkha slipping her one ?

Subject: RE: BS: Justice for the Gurkhas/Bravest of the Brave
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 05:45 PM

Absolutely fantastic news - Certainly made my day.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice for the Gurkhas/Bravest of the Brave
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 05:15 PM

"tens of thousands of fundamentalist Muslims from Algeria, Saudi, Somalia, etc. to come here, who then FIGHT AGAINST this country!"

Gosh - I'm amazed that this didn't get on to the news ...

Subject: RE: BS: Justice for the Gurkhas/Bravest of the Brave
From: GUEST,Ivan
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 05:13 PM

This is great news!

Can't believe that this government refused to allow more than 2,000 Gurkhas to settle here, who had SERVED and FOUGHT FOR this country, while at the same time having allowed at least tens of thousands of fundamentalist Muslims from Algeria, Saudi, Somalia, etc. to come here, who then FIGHT AGAINST this country!

Subject: RE: BS: Justice for the Gurkhas/Bravest of the Brave
From: GUEST,lox
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 05:12 PM

Fantastic.

I am smiling from ear to ear.

What a great day.

The British have given themselves good reason to be proud and call their nation great.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice for the Gurkhas/Bravest of the Bra
From: Charley Noble
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 04:07 PM

Amazingly good news!

Three cheers for justice, and one for the Queen!

And ship the naysayers overseas where they can earn their right to a Royal British Army pension.


Cheerily,
Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Justice for the Gurkhas/Bravest of the Brave
From: sapper82
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 12:11 PM

Good news indeed!

Subject: RE: BS: Justice for the Gurkhas/Bravest of the Brave
From: eddie1
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 10:10 AM

From the BBC News website:

'Gurkhas win right to stay in UK

A group of retired Gurkhas fighting for the right to settle in Britain have won their immigration test case, their lawyers have said.
Five ex-Gurkhas and the widow of another Gurkha veteran took their case to the High Court in London.
They were challenging immigration rules which said that those who retired from the British Army before 1997 did not have an automatic right to stay.
The judgement could affect some 2,000 former Gurkhas.
The regiment moved its main base from Hong Kong to the UK in 1997 and the government had argued that Gurkhas discharged before that date were unlikely to have strong residential ties with the UK.
That meant those who wanted to settle in the UK had to apply for British residence and could be refused and deported.

'Common sense'
The judge, Mr Justice Blake, said the Gurkhas' long service, conspicuous acts of bravery and loyalty to the Crown all pointed to a "moral debt of honour" and gratitude felt by British people.
Laywer Martin Howe said: "Today we have seen a tremendous and historic victory for the gallant Gurkha veterans of Nepal.
"This is a victory that restores honour and dignity to deserving soldiers who faithfully served in Her Majesty's armed forces.
"It is a victory for common sense; a victory for fairness; and a victory for the British sense of what is right." '

Thank God for common sense!

Pete Seeger said "Working for peace is like adding sand to a basket on one side of a giant scale, trying to tip it our way despite enormous weight on the opposite side; but if we get enough people adding sand with teaspoons, even if everybody else is laughing at us, we can tip the scales."

We were working for something else here but, in signing the petition we were adding our teaspoon!

Eddie

Subject: RE: BS: Justice for the Gurkhas/Bravest of the Brave
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 09:35 AM

another link

Subject: RE: BS: Justice for the Gurkhas/Bravest of the Brave
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 09:30 AM

Excellent news; this has made my day.

It is the RIGHT decision.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice for the Gurkhas/Bravest of the Brave
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 07:13 AM

Gurkhas await High Court ruling on right to stay in Britain

23 minutes ago



LONDON (AFP) - Former Nepalese Gurkha soldiers were on Tuesday awaiting a High Court ruling on their demand for the right to settle in Britain, which could effect the future of 2,000 such veterans.

A lawyer for the old soldiers voiced hope that the verdict -- the climax of a two-year legal battle for Gurkhas who retired before 1997 and thus do not automatically have the right to live here -- would go their way.

"The decision... will be historic, the culmination of a hard-fought two-year legal battle seeking justice for some 2,000 Gurkhas whose only fault was to retire prior to July 1, 1997," said solicitor Martin Howe.

"I sincerely hope that the court's judgement will strike down the government's policy barring from Britain a class of loyal Gurkhas who stood by this country and risked their lives and limbs for the freedoms and values that we all enjoy," he added.

Gurkhas who retired after 1997, when their base was moved from Hong Kong to England, can stay in Britain.

But those who retired earlier and whose individual cases were decided by visa officials in Kathmandu and Hong Kong must apply for permission to stay and may be refused and deported.

All other foreign soldiers in the army have a right to settle in Britain after four years of service anywhere in the world.

Around 200,000 Gurkhas fought for Britain in World Wars I and II, and about 3,500 currently serve in the army, including in Afghanistan and Iraq.

More than 45,000 have died serving Britain.

The Gurkhas, who are renowned for their bravery and ferocious fighting skills, have also struggled for many years for equal pension rights as their British army counterparts.

Tuesday's ruling was expected around 2:00 pm.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice for the Gurkhas/Bravest of the Bra
From: GUEST,Lauro
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 07:11 AM

The UK is not a charity, nor is it a free loaders paradise. I wrote to my MP and made my feelings clear that they MUST NOT be allowed to remain in the UK. What kind of message would it send out if they were allowed to live here ? I am glad to say there is strong feeling here against these people receiving special treatment.

I see in the press they are now coming up with crap to stay in the UK, this is low, still it won't work. We are not a feeding bowl.

"47 ex-British Army Gurkhas are on "death row" awaiting kidney transplants they can never afford after the Government turned its back on them. Lawyers acting for the former soldiers believe many have kidney problems because they did not get enough water while serving Britain in hot climates".

I never read such hock in my life.

Each served at least 15 years before returning to poverty-stricken Nepal.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice for the Gurkhas/Bravest of the Brave
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 30 Sep 08 - 06:25 AM

Definitely got my fingers crossed today.

I enjoyed reading this: Pendletoday .

33,722 signatures

Subject: RE: BS: Justice for the Gurkhas/Bravest of the Brave
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 04:03 PM

nd mine's one of 'em. And Mrs. Fenswoman's.
Fingers crossed, Eanjay, although I'm not holding my breath.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice for the Gurkhas/Bravest of the Brave
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 29 Sep 08 - 01:39 PM

Gurkhas fighting for the right to retire in the UK will hear tomorrow if they have won their legal battle. Judge Mr Justice Blake will rule on the High Court case heard last week. Here

33,640 signatures

Subject: RE: BS: Justice for the Gurkhas/Bravest of the Bra
From: Charley Noble
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 09:30 AM

We follow this petition with great interest and support from across the Great Pond.

I'm pleased to see such unified support from Mudcat members, and almost all guests, for this petition and the issues it's responding to.

I do wonder what pensions were provided the various German mercenaries who were hired by the Crown to put down our little rebellion. I believe it was pretty much a flat-rate payout based on whether they survived, what limbs they might have been lost, or whether they were killed. There is certainly an entire history of such injustice to the troops and no nation has a monopoly on such injustice. Another case in point would be the status of Iraqies hired as translators in the Bush Administration's current adventure.

Good luck on this petition effort.

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: Justice for the Gurkhas/Bravest of the Brave
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 09:11 AM

I'm pleased to see that there are now more than 32,000 signatures on the petition.

I have always been a Joanna Lumley fan but I admire her even more now with the support she is giving to the gurkhas.

The media coverage has (IMO) been a little thin when you consider the unnewsworthy things we are bombarded with on a daily basis; some of them for an extended period of time too.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice for the Gurkhas/Bravest of the Brave
From: beardedbruce
Date: 22 Sep 08 - 08:48 AM

refresh

Subject: RE: BS: Justice for the Gurkhas/Bravest of the Brave
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 07:49 PM

100

Subject: RE: BS: Justice for the Gurkhas/Bravest of the Brave
From: Mississippi Saxaphone
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 11:45 AM

BTW, I've signed the petition.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice for the Gurkhas/Bravest of the Brave
From: sapper82
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 11:40 AM

Damn! Rose to the bait again!
I really do think that Eliot is a trolling shit and that we ought to just ignore the turd!

Subject: RE: BS: Justice for the Gurkhas/Bravest of the Brave
From: sapper82
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 11:20 AM

Oh dear Elliot. you've just proven you have never been in the forces.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice for the Gurkhas/Bravest of the Brave
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 10:54 AM

I make no judgement about anyone's ancestors- but if you claim to be anti-immigrant, be sure you evolved where you are living, or you need to remove yourself.

I stated my position re the Gurkhas early on: it has not changed.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice for the Gurkhas/Bravest of the Brave
From: Mississippi Saxaphone
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 10:50 AM

Joanna Lumley is prepared to give back her passport and become an Indian national if the veteran soldiers lose their battle to stay in Britain.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice for the Gurkhas/Bravest of the Bra
From: Stu
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 08:10 AM

"Immigrant! Your forebearers came in and displaced the resident Neanderthal population!"

You've obviously never met my family : )

Subject: RE: BS: Justice for the Gurkhas/Bravest of the Brave
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 19 Sep 08 - 07:32 AM

31,181 names on the petition.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice for the Gurkhas/Bravest of the Brave
From: artbrooks
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 08:05 PM

Everyone else's replaced his?

Subject: RE: BS: Justice for the Gurkhas/Bravest of the Brave
From: Lox
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 05:48 PM

Art - no worries.

BB

I like the direction you are taking this thread.

But I think you may be wrong to argue that EL's ancestors replaced the neanderthals.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice for the Gurkhas/Bravest of the Brave
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 04:41 PM

Sites such as Boxgrove in Sussex illustrate the later arrival in the archaeological record of an archaic Homo species called Homo heidelbergensis around 500,000 years ago. These early peoples made Acheulean flint tools (hand axes) and hunted the large native mammals of the period. They drove elephants, rhinoceri and hippopotami over the tops of cliffs or into bogs to more easily kill them.

The extreme cold of the following Anglian Stage is likely to have driven humans out of Britain altogether and the region does not appear to have been occupied again until the ice receded during the Hoxnian Stage. This warmer time period lasted from around 300,000 until 200,000 years ago and saw the Clactonian flint tool industry develop at sites such as Barnfield Pit in Kent. The period had produced a rich and widespread distribution of sites by Palaeolithic standards, although uncertainty over the relationship between the Clactonian and Acheulean industries is still unresolved.

This period saw also Levallois flint tools introduced, possibly by humans arriving from Africa. Finds from Swanscombe and Botany Pit in Purfleet support Levallois technology being a European rather than African introduction however. The more advanced flint technology permitted more efficient hunting and therefore made Britain a more worthwhile place to remain until the following period of cooling Wolstonian Stage, 352,000–130,000 years ago).

However, there is little evidence of human occupation during the subsequent Ipswichian interglacial between around 130,000 and 110,000 years ago. Meltwaters from the previous glaciation cut Britain off from the continent for the first time during this period which may explain the lack of activity. Overall, there appears to have been a gradual decline in population between the Hoxnian Stage and this time suggesting that the absence of humans in the archaeological record here was the result of gradual depopulation.


[edit] Middle Palaeolithic
(from around 180,000 to 40,000 years ago)

From 180 to 60 kya there is no evidence of human occupation in Britain. From 60 to 40 kya Britain was grass land with giant deer and horse, with woolly mammoths, rhino and carnivores. Neanderthal man had arrived in Britain by around 40,000 years ago."

Subject: RE: BS: Justice for the Gurkhas/Bravest of the Brave
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 04:33 PM

"During the last ice age, a group of people crossed the land bridge from the continent and decided to settle in the green and pleasant land they found."


Immigrant! Your forebearers came in and displaced the resident Neanderthal population!

What your five- and sixbearers did I don't want to think about!

Subject: RE: BS: Justice for the Gurkhas/Bravest of the Brave
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 02:10 PM

And no real infantryman would express contempt for Engineers.

Same for the US.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice for the Gurkhas/Bravest of the Brave
From: CET
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 02:08 PM

I have signed the petition, by virtue of having been born in Britain, though I have been a Canadian for lo these many years. There are a couple of Gurkha soldiers serving on the same camp as me here in Afghanistan.

I, too, grew up with stories about the Gurkhas from my father, who knew them in Malaya.

I don't believe that the troll calling himself Eliott Lurie ever served in the British Army. No real soldier would ever say the things he has said about the Gurkhas. And no real infantryman would express contempt for Engineers. Any one in a real line regiment knows they are first in and last out, and just as tough as any rifleman.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice for the Gurkhas/Bravest of the Brave
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 11:07 AM

Oh dear!

Subject: RE: BS: Justice for the Gurkhas/Bravest of the Bra
From: GUEST,Elliot Lurie
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 11:03 AM

Ah, as promised the walking failure arrives in the form of that publicly disgraced Royal Engineer. Sorry old boy, we are discussing line regiments on this thread, that qualifies me, not you. Please push on back to the workshop !

EL

XOX

Subject: RE: BS: Justice for the Gurkhas/Bravest of the Brave
From: sapper82
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 10:50 AM

Elliot, as an ex-squaddie and a committed Tory of the Thatcherite persuasion, I have two words to say to you.
The second word is Off.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice for the Gurkhas/Bravest of the Bra
From: Stu
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 09:57 AM

"So, who is claiming to be a "native"?"

Me.

During the last ice age, a group of people crossed the land bridge from the continent and decided to settle in the green and pleasant land they found. After the ice melted they realised they lived on a fine set of islands with cool green forests, high mountains and deep blue lakes. There were no borders, countries or accents, and everyone got on just fine. They loved the land, the animals and above all the music they heard around them - the melodys played by the running of the streams and becks, the vast sweeping textures of the winds on the fells and the rhythym of the crows wing beating home to the roost as the day draws to a close.

These people, who went on to populate all the many islands of the archipeligo were the ancestors of stigweard, who still delights in the music of these Isles he calls home, whose diverse traditions are the musical heritage his ancestors have handed him.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice for the Gurkhas/Bravest of the Brave
From: artbrooks
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 09:12 AM

Thank you, Lox and others, for the information. I wish I was eligible to sign the petition.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice for the Gurkhas/Bravest of the Brave
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 07:28 AM

30,366 names on the petition when I just looked :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Justice for the Gurkhas/Bravest of the Brave
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 07:26 AM

Please don't select certain professions as "elite" or imply one persons job is more important than another's.

Elliot,your words not mine!

You are either not understanding what I am saying or you are twisting my words.

Subject: RE: BS: Justice for the Gurkhas/Bravest of the Brave
From: GUEST,ted
Date: 18 Sep 08 - 04:29 AM

This goverment should be ashamed of the treatment of these great soldiers and also ashamed that this has been allowed to go on and into court