BS: corpse found on the queen's estate

Subject: RE: BS: corpse found on the queen's estate
From: gnu
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 08:21 PM

More of the same.

Personal attack... for no reason other than to attempt unjustly justify a false transgression. Fact of the matter is, it is such very posts that do exactly what I have just been falsely accused of doing. Very sad.

Anon Canuck? Everyone knows my name and address.

My words are in print. You can twist them all you want, but you can only do that with a twisted mind.

Have fun with it. Light the torches. Shove em ya bunch a witch hunters.

Seriously, do you really think anyone who read this WHOLE thread actually thinks that my arguements are nothing more than defending myself against unfounded accusations? I think those who did read th wholw thread think little of those who twisted my words and put words in my mouth that I did not speak.

gnightgnu trolls.

Subject: RE: BS: corpse found on the queen's estate
From: Jack Campin
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 06:11 PM

I tried to find some recent coverage on this. First thing I came across was the Sun, with an article which was entirely blame-the-victim - "druggie teenage slag was asking for it", in effect. If you thought they learned anything after being caught out phone hacking, think again. They were slime then, they are slime now, they always will be slime.

And if some anonymous Canadian thinks his/her precious ego matters more than a young woman being murdered, to the point of being the primary object of discussion - fuck off, gnu.

Subject: RE: BS: corpse found on the queen's estate
From: gnu
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 03:53 PM

To reittttterate... MY point is that I and others were accused of making jokes about THE death. That did not happen. I am NOT arguing about jokes about The Royals being "off". I NEVER have. Indeed, I have stated that I will make jokes about them whenever I want to. If that is a problem with anybody, sue me. Call me tasteless and callow if you want but don't lie and say I am stunned and should go away. Apples and oranges. WHO doesn't get it?

Fact is, I, and every reader herein, can see that someone was caught in a lie and hasn't the balls to admit it and apologize when challenged but rather ramps up their own justification for their lie with sillyass personal attacks. I find that far more a transgression than being tasteless and callow... which, once again, I NEVER had an arguement with.

Subject: RE: BS: corpse found on the queen's estate
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 03:08 PM

Gnu, you know and I know that taking advantage of Alisa's death to make silly, carping remarks about the royal family is tasteless and callow.

Some people have obviously seen too many fake deaths on TV and movies and fail to grasp reality. We know that such callowness is common on the Internet, but real catters like you and me are expected to meet a higher standard.

Backwoodsman, you go too far. Gnu isn't acting crazy, he's merely being a little too legal minded. Could happen to anybody.

Subject: RE: BS: corpse found on the queen's estate
From: gnu
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 02:29 PM

Backwoodsman... another personal attack?... and you still have no answer to my question because there isn't one? Shove your sausage up your ass.

Subject: RE: BS: corpse found on the queen's estate
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 12:31 AM

Mike...another insomniac! Mornin' buddy!

Subject: RE: BS: corpse found on the queen's estate
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 12:27 AM

Can't you sleep either, Al? :-)
Is it dark down in Dorset?

Subject: RE: BS: corpse found on the queen's estate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 12:27 AM

The McGuffin was Alfred Hitchcock's coinage: Chambers Dictionary ~ "the element of a film, book, &c, that drives or provides the excuse for the action". Online Urban Dict: "a plot device that has no specific meaning or purpose other than to advance the story; any situation that motivates the action of a film either artificially or substantively".

Subject: RE: BS: corpse found on the queen's estate
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 12:26 AM

Oh, BTW, here's your answer (if you have the wit and sensitivity to understand it which, on the evidence of the posts you've made on here, I strongly doubt) - McGuffin

Subject: RE: BS: corpse found on the queen's estate
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 12:21 AM

The McGuffin was a term coined by film director Alfred Hitchcock. The McGuffin was what the plot of a film was ostensibly about. Spies after government secrets, a missing diamond, the vital evidence, the search for buried treasure, etc.

What the film was really about (in Hitchcock's view) were the characters and atmosphere that the actors and directors, lighting people, script writers, music composers, etc. could create.

Subject: RE: BS: corpse found on the queen's estate
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 11 Jan 12 - 12:18 AM

Thanks Gnu, you proved me right, twice. Definitely a sausage short.

Subject: RE: BS: corpse found on the queen's estate
From: gnu
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 09:42 PM

Go away? Nitpicking? ME????

Youse still have not addressed my simple question. It's not rocket science. It's simply logic. I asked... youse cannot answer. Just saying I am "wrong" and stunned and "should go away" and that I do not understand is illogical. You have no arguement. I NEVER and NObody ever, on this thread, made any jokes that any of youse accuse of having been made re the deceased.

IF you can prove me wrong, do it. (Yes, I repeat myself... dunno why I have to do so????)

If you can't, as you have not be able to since I asked you to do same, I believe an apology to myself and others is in order.

Seriously, think of what your posts are saying to the world who can read them. Mine was a joke about the Royals. Yours are personal attacks against me and others which are unfounded and unwarrented.

BTW... WTF is a "McGuffin"?

Subject: RE: BS: corpse found on the queen's estate
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 06:22 PM

'If the victim had been a 40-year old male in a business suit, there would have been no jokes at all.'

found on the Queens pheasant shoot - YOU have to be joking.

How to explain Sandringham......

I was taken there as a child to watch the Royal family walk across the park to church. Its like ....the holy of holys for Royal watchers. generations of Royals have lived in Sandringham House, and hunted in the beautiful grounds.

To have a murder case plumped in the middle of it, is like drawing a red nose on the unicorn.

Subject: RE: BS: corpse found on the queen's estate
From: Jack Campin
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 05:55 PM

This is not the first time in recent years that a young woman from the Baltic has been found murdered in Britain:

Jolanta Bledaite

There probably isn't a pattern (in that Bledaite's killers were psychos acting in isolation) but people in the UK are likely to react "oh not again" in a way that US bystanders won't.

Subject: RE: BS: corpse found on the queen's estate
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 05:55 PM

Hang it up, gnu. None of us are stupid enough to accept your nitpicking argument.

If the victim had been a 40-year old male in a business suit, there would have been no jokes at all.

Subject: RE: BS: corpse found on the queen's estate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 05:44 PM

Oh, Al ~~ Grovel grovel grovel :::\\\

I meant, of course, a metonomy...

Subject: RE: BS: corpse found on the queen's estate
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 05:42 PM

22.41pm and still no Dick.......

Subject: RE: BS: corpse found on the queen's estate
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 05:41 PM

MGM - how dare you accuse me of perpetrating a synechdoche? What sort of filthy devil do you take me for.......?

Sir, you go too far!

Subject: RE: BS: corpse found on the queen's estate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 05:29 PM

Oh, for crying out loud, gnu. The girl is the

McGuffin.

Live with it. Otherwise go away & commune with yourself. I think it's maybe time for a game of, gnu goes away to hide and nobody goes to look for him.

Subject: RE: BS: corpse found on the queen's estate
From: gnu
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 04:58 PM

Sooorry... not a hope that your logic says in ANY way that ANYone made a joke about the poor girl. That's what I asked youse to do. That is ALL I asked youse to do. Youse can't. What don't YOUSE understand about that?

AND, inferring some sort of twisted guilt by some illogical association regarding YOUR inferences is extremely disturbing to me.

Get thee a rope and hang thyselves yet again. (Ah, I could say it in a much more concise manner but that would simply be played into more wet fodder for your canons.)

Twist it, play it, anyway you want it, that's all right with me. Fact is, I will joke about The Royals ANY time I want to do so. NObody can tell me any of the posts to date were making a joke about the (possible) murder of a young girl. When youse say that, youse are the ones who are illogical, incorrect and, simply, rude and arrogant in your attacks on myself and others.

The posts stand for themselves.

One last time... I have seen NO jokes made about the girl. Neither have you.

gnightgnu

Subject: RE: BS: corpse found on the queen's estate
From: kendall
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 04:00 PM

One use for humor is to use it as a shield against a horror.
It's like fainting, an escape mechanism.

Subject: RE: BS: corpse found on the queen's estate
From: Backwoodsman
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 02:56 PM

Gnu, the jokes involve the discovery of a (probably murdered) young woman's body on the Sandringham Estate. Whilst the jokes might appear to be aimed at the Royal Family, they are made against the background of the tragic death of a young woman in a country far from her home.

They are insensitive and tasteless, and would be just as insensitive and tasteless if the girl had been found on the White House lawn and jokes were being posted about which member of the Obama family did it. The girl was someone's daughter, and is being grieved over by those who loved her. Rather than thinking about tasteless jokes, it would be better if the 'comedians' thought about what she might have gone through leading up to her death.

Anyone who doesn't understand that really is a sausage short of a barbecue.

Subject: RE: BS: corpse found on the queen's estate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 02:44 PM

gnu ~~ the jokes above about the royals were all predicated on the fact that they must have murdered the unfortunate young woman because her body was found on her land ~~ heeheehee, how very witty!; so that she came, by a sort of synechdoche or association, merely a part of the joke: her corpse was paid no respect in itself, & hence neither was she as a person, but merely used as an occasion for some facetious remarks, in IMO vile taste, about the royals. So the jokes were about her at that: she was an implicit, & most disrespectfully integrated, part of them.

Do you really not get this?

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: corpse found on the queen's estate
From: gnu
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 02:35 PM

"I just think it's odd and bit sick that people are joking about some poor kid getting killed, that's all."

AGAIN, I missed those jokes. And I have read every post on this thread. All of the jokes I read were about the Royals.

Anyone care to point out ONE SINGLE JOKE made about the young girl's death? Go ahead. Do it. Explain it.

Subject: RE: BS: corpse found on the queen's estate
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 02:20 PM

The latest info I could find is one day old.

We don't know that her death was a homicide. It could have been suicide or a drug overdose. Perhaps somebody put her body in the woods because they didn't want to be associated with it.

Who? somebody like a drug dealer, a pimp, a back-alley abortionist, an abusive boyfriend, for starters. Poor kid.

When I saw some of the offensive remarks above about the death of a 17-year-old, I realized why some of the young put on scary armor - tattoos, piercings, crazy hairdos - to scare people like me away.

I was in the railway station in Edmonton a few months ago. Across from me was a teenage girl with all of the above. She glanced across at me with pure loathing in her eyes. She probably thought I'm the kind of person who don't care if teenagers die, but she was wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: corpse found on the queen's estate
From: kendall
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 09:56 AM

Thar rules out all conservatives.

Subject: RE: BS: corpse found on the queen's estate
From: theleveller
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 08:19 AM

"Part of being a Liberal is the ability to accept the differences in other people."

That rules the Windsors out, then.

Subject: RE: BS: corpse found on the queen's estate
From: Charley Noble
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 08:12 AM

And add my condolences to Alisa Dmitrijeva's family and friends.

So, who was the murderer and what was the weapon used?

Charley Noble

Subject: RE: BS: corpse found on the queen's estate
From: Spleen Cringe
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 08:02 AM

Al, my comments were nothing to do with royal family. I don't give a toss about them. I just think it's odd and bit sick that people are joking about some poor kid getting killed, that's all. I think Will expressed what I think better than I did, though.

Subject: RE: BS: corpse found on the queen's estate
From: kendall
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 07:54 AM

Part of being a Liberal is the ability to accept the differences in other people.
I'm glad to be a Liberal.

The Queen was in Ireland at the same time I was there. She got all the publicity. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: corpse found on the queen's estate
From: theleveller
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 07:54 AM

"Maybe I'm being overly sensitive, but I see the Queen as the focal point of the British people. She represents the people of Britain; she's not just another well born person.
I'm not as fond of some of her relatives, but hell, I'm not fond of some of MY relatives.
When you knock the Queen, you knock Britain, in my opinion."


What rubbish! At best the monarchy is an irrelevance, at worst an expensive and socially divisive anachronism. Don't forget that we have, in the past, nor been averse to cutting of the monarch's head.

Anyway, this murder has nothing to do with the monarchy except for the fact that the body was found on a royal estate. It brings to mind the song Poor Murdered Woman. I hope that, unlike the song, the culprit is swiftly brought to justice.

Subject: RE: BS: corpse found on the queen's estate
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 07:49 AM

"Lots of problems in the world would not exist if each person's web of respect and compassion stretched far enough to allow them to imagine the circumstances of distant individuals, of other species, even of the planet, more vividly and with some empathy."

That is absolutely right. Bad taste is bad taste end of story. having a private joke may be fair enough but when you put something on a public forum you should be aware that it may offend. Likewise in the media now some appear totally unaware of how cruel they are being and beleive it is those who would take offence that are to blame

http://news.stv.tv/scotland/highlands-islands/285752-matthew-wright-sparks-outrage-over-lewis-murder-comments/

Subject: RE: BS: corpse found on the queen's estate
From: maeve
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 06:31 AM

Some thoughts on empathy:

"If we are to love our neighbors, before doing anything else we must see our neighbors. With our imagination as well as our eyes, that is to say like artists, we must see not just their faces but the life behind and within their faces. Here it is love that is the frame we see them in."
― Frederick Buechner, Whistling in the Dark: A Doubter's Dictionary

"Anyone who has experienced a certain amount of loss in their life has empathy for those who have experienced loss."
Anderson Cooper

"The discoveries of how we can grow and the insights we need to have really come from the inside out. To have genuine empathy, not as a make-nice tool but as an understanding, is essential to the next step."
Patricia Sun

"Self-absorption in all its forms kills empathy, let alone compassion. When we focus on ourselves, our world contracts as our problems and preoccupations loom large. But when we focus on others, our world expands. Our own problems drift to the periphery of the mind and so seem smaller, and we increase our capacity for connection - or compassionate action."
― Daniel Goleman, Social Intelligence: The New Science of Human Relationships

Subject: RE: BS: corpse found on the queen's estate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 05:53 AM

You might feel more empathy Joe if you had seen her face smiling out of her picture on every news report, as we have over here.

Subject: RE: BS: corpse found on the queen's estate
From: Will Fly
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 05:48 AM

Of course there's a difference, Joe - and I'm perfectly aware of it. I just thought the thread was verging on the callous.

Who gives a toss about so-called Royal connections or any stupidity supposedly connected with it or them. Bunkum.

If Dmitrijeva is a name you can't pronounce, then try: Duh-Mee-Tree-YEva. Not too hard after all.

Subject: RE: BS: corpse found on the queen's estate
From: GUEST,Peter Laban
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 05:38 AM

The Irish have reason to disagree with me, I know.

Not been keeping up with things have you?


Watch this then..

Subject: RE: BS: corpse found on the queen's estate
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 05:28 AM

of course it very sad - a seventeen year old child dying - in such sordid circumstances as well.

The point is though, here is a new one for the for the royal family. This will have the conspiracy theorists in a tizz for ever. Like Jack the Ripper and the death of Princess Di.

On the pheasant shoot as well - even Inspector Lynley might be too downmarket for this one.

Subject: RE: BS: corpse found on the queen's estate
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 04:55 AM

Well, Will and peregrina, I think there's a difference. There's a connection with the New Hampshire singer, especially for those of us who are singers and those who have visited New Hampshire or know Allison (Animaterra), who apparently knew the singer and reported the death.

Most of us have no connection with the body found on the Queen's estate. It's just a news item. Millions of people die every day, and most of us aren't able to conjure up enough sincere sympathy to be concerned about every one. Human nature guides us to be sympathetic to those we know, those we feel a connection to. Most of us just can't be sincerely sympathetic toward every dead body that turns up, anywhere in the world. And I gotta say, I question the sincerity of those who ooze with sympathy for total strangers. When I'm dead, I don't care to have any strangers grieving for me. Let them go on with their lives and grieve for the loss of the people they really love.

Sorry, but that's the way it is. I intend no disrespect; but to me, Alisa Dmitrijeva is just a news item and a name I can't pronounce. I hope that she has family and friends who will grieve her loss - that's the grieving that makes a difference.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: corpse found on the queen's estate
From: GUEST,Allan Conn
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 04:36 AM

"When you knock the Queen, you knock Britain, in my opinion."

Not everyone feels like that though. I don't think most British people would take real offence if foreigners criticsed the Queen or the monarchy in general. Real avid monarchists or real avid republicans are probably in the minority. Most people seem to not care too much either way but are happy to take things as they are because it has always been so and seems to work to some extent despite it being archaic etc. Yes there is a soap opera style interest by many, especially females, in what clothes are being worn etc - but it is hardly serious stuff. I don't think many people would get too bothered about the PM being criticised either. Saying that maybe that is because I'm in Scotland where royal street parties etc are basically a thing of the past. I was down south when Diana died and found the atmosphere weird to say the least but I kind of felt that had more to do with the cult of celebrity than the royal institution itself.

Subject: RE: BS: corpse found on the queen's estate
From: peregrina
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 04:24 AM

Yes, thanks for that Will Fly. Respect for every human life.

Lots of problems in the world would not exist if each person's web of respect and compassion stretched far enough to allow them to imagine the circumstances of distant individuals, of other species, even of the planet, more vividly and with some empathy.

Subject: RE: BS: corpse found on the queen's estate
From: Will Fly
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 04:12 AM

Interesting to compare the sentiments on this thread with one currently above the line: Senseless killing of NH singer.

Lots of sympathy and compassion for one murdered person - not much, it seems, for another. One touches our souls, the other appears not to.

So - my sincerest sympathies to the relatives of Alisa Dmitrijeva in Wisbech for their sad loss.

Subject: RE: BS: corpse found on the queen's estate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 04:11 AM

Actually, some statistics would be interesting and presumably not too difficult to establish. What proportion of the population in fact turn out to line the route for a royal procession or to catch a glimpse of royalty on some occasion? How do tv viewing figures for royal occasions compare with those for, e.g., the World Cup Final? I agree that it is unlikely that these figures would reveal a 'majority' of the population in the entirely literal sense; but would surely be most significant numbers nevertheless, not at all deserving of locutions like Al's "most of us don't give a monkey's bum"; quite a few would be shown to give a monkey's bum, I would estimate: full as many, I would venture, as feel strongly enough to find it necessary to express their uninterest in such discourteously hyperbolical terms.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: corpse found on the queen's estate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 03:57 AM

So would I, but they are indicative.

Subject: RE: BS: corpse found on the queen's estate
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 03:45 AM

I would have thought that those who show that degree of devoted sycophancy are very much in the minority.

Subject: RE: BS: corpse found on the queen's estate
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 02:50 AM

I posted because I found it distasteful to joke about the death, not the Queen.
Big Al, many certainly agree with you, but are you sure it is most, as in "most of us don't give a monkey's bum about the Queen" ?

Consider the crowds who waited outside the Sandringham chapel from before dawn on Christmas morning, or for the wedding, or awaiting news of Philip's illness, or for Queen Mother's funeral, ....

Subject: RE: BS: corpse found on the queen's estate
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 02:28 AM

JiK: Not many people here have 'serving persons' in that sense either. In the days when our upper & upper-middle classes did, so did your wealthy families, on the evidence of literature, films, &c, set around such a milieu; from Theodore Dreiser's An American Tragedy to Deanna Durbin in His Butler's Sister. And, literarily, they were occasionally responsible for bodies in libraries likewise.

~M~

Subject: RE: BS: corpse found on the queen's estate
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 10 Jan 12 - 01:51 AM

Its a bit like the body in the library.

Not at all alike. In that case the butler did it.

...unless she was having something on with the gardener

... ... or these times, he was having something on with the driver.

... ... ... or ...(?)

In the US, in novels (and to some extent in movies, etc) about "British crime" the "serving persons" always seem to play principal parts, probably because it makes the criminal potentials somehow "more exotic" and more unlike our ordinary domestic crime.

Almost no one in the US has "serving persons" to be involved ...

... ... here they're mostly called "body guards" I suppose.

(Jobs to fit the business one's in?)

John

Subject: RE: BS: corpse found on the queen's estate
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Jan 12 - 09:55 PM

Kendall - i like you mate. I've seen you do your stuff on Youtube.

However - let me warn you. The English folk people have got being po-faced and exhibiting no sense of humour down to a fine art.

They try and use this to discomfort everyone. Its a sort of intelligence slowed down to an acceptable rate for practicing bores. like when your teacher used to say - no running in the corridor - even when the corridor was empty.

most of us don't give a monkey's bum about the Queen, or her strange family. You Americans show us an inordinate ammount of respect. I remember when Sheila Ferguson of the Three Degrees was invited for supper with Prince Charles. She said afterwards that he insisted on being called Sir throughout the evening. And bloody hell! She complied!

In short, the Royals are an absurdity. The real comparison should be - what if a 17 year old girl was found murdered in my back garden. I'd be seing mailbags by now.

All these daft bumholes are showing the royal family quite unwarranted reverence. Its a bit like the body in the library.

Subject: RE: BS: corpse found on the queen's estate
From: kendall
Date: 09 Jan 12 - 08:58 PM

Maybe I'm being overly sensitive, but I see the Queen as the focal point of the British people. She represents the people of Britain; she's not just another well born person.
I'm not as fond of some of her relatives, but hell, I'm not fond of some of MY relatives.
When you knock the Queen, you knock Britain, in my opinion.
\
The Irish have reason to disagree with me, I know.

Subject: RE: BS: corpse found on the queen's estate
From: gnu
Date: 09 Jan 12 - 07:57 PM

Me too, Bert. As for Beth, I am sure she laughed at my post. She reads Mudcat regulary I am sure but, of course, only posts here under a guest name as she doesn't want to offend any of her friends by being seen consorting with commoners... especially colonial commoners.