BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 11:02 AM

"It does seem extraordinarily obvious that England could have done more, and more sensible things,"
Richard;
There really is no question regarding Britain's culpability in it's behaviour turning a natural disaster into a catastrophe on the scale that it was - even that nice Mr Blur apologised for Britain's part in bringing about so many deaths, on the 150th anniversary, back in 1995
What has never been discussed is whether British policy was deliberate, or whether it was the same neglect Britain displayed towards its colonies, coupled with the innate racism towards the Irish; articulated by their appointed representative, Trevelyan.
Before this thread started, I was inclined to believe it was the latter; now I'm pretty well convinced that if there wasn't method in Britain's madness, they would never have appointed somebody holding the Views Trevalyan did - why should a religious fanatic lift a finger to interfere with "God's divine punishment"?   
Much of the same hatred has been reflected here by those attempting to get Britain off the hook.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 10:21 AM

Yeah - I'm sure everybody can see the force of your overwhelming logic Brucie
I stand totally corrected!!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 10:11 AM

Like what, Richard?

I have been asking WHAT could England have done AT THAT TIME?

And gotten no answer- to say they should have done more is like saying that peace should reign over us all- We agree, but don't know how to implement it.

Great sentiment, but short on facts.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 10:05 AM

It does seem extraordinarily obvious that England could have done more, and more sensible things, to reduce the effect of the crop failures. It does seem an extraordinary and unconvincing sophistry to distinguish deaths from diseases of poverty from deaths from starvation.
The efforts of K, T, and BB have done more than anything Jim or Olly have said to convince me that material parts of English actions about the potato famine were unwise and in the event harmful. And sinister.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 09:26 AM

So, you continue to deny reality here as in the other threads?



You have yet to give any FACTS.

You make unsupported statements that are contradicted by published facts.



We ALL acknowledge that the Famine was a terrible thing- YOU are trying to place blame without any basis but your own bigotry.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 09:18 AM

Had your figures, over and over again - had the statements - read them and weep
This appears a somewhat miserable attempt at revenge taking for your having your arse kicked on the other thread - you are no better than this pair of turds
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 09:12 AM

Then back them WITH INFORMATION.

The FACTS are that MORE food was imported into Ireland than was exported.

Are you arguing otherwise? THEN SHOW YOUR FIGURES.

As of now, you are lying rather than arguing.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 08:47 AM

No they have not
You have put up no arguments
You are now attempting to smear
Feel free to contradict anything I have put up with information of your own
Hit and run is just about played out on this thread
Now
You have had the statements of the Governments intentions
You have had the food situation as it existed at the time
You have had the fact that The British Empire was the richest and most powerful entity on the planet at the time.
You have repeated contently statements affirming that the evictions (assisted by the British forces of law and order and the military( were enforced by the Government's insistence that all failure to pay rents should be acted upon, and that this policy was continued log after the Famine was over
The Fact that there was another famine could be described as an act of God (if you believe that sort of thing)
The results of the 1845-1850 Famine were down purely to not only the inaction of the British Government, but on their (at best) indifferent, and probably deliberate actions in dismantling what the previous put in place and enforcing a policy of emigrate or starve.
Every single statement here is backed up with acres of information
As I said, feel free
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 08:26 AM

Jim,

Your statements have been countered by factual information that indicate you have been misinformed. When you have some basis other than non-supported opinion, you can try to make your point.

Until then, stop repeating what has already been shown to be false- THAT is "LYING"

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 08:15 AM

Seems you have no answer eiher
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 07:49 AM

Jim         minus one
Reality    five

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 07:41 AM

What a load of blustering crap
You have had the statements of the Governments intentions
You have had the food situation as it existed at the time
You have had the fact that The British Empire was the richest and most powerful entity on the planet at the time.
You have repeated contently statements affirming that the evictions (assisted by the British forces of law and order and the military( were enforced by the Government's insistence that all failure to pay rents should be acted upon, and that this policy was continued log after the Famine was over
The Fact that there was another famine could be described as an act of God (if you believe that sort of thing)
The results of the 1845-1850 Famine were down purely to not only the inaction of the British Government, but on their (at best) indifferent, and probably deliberate actions in dismantling what the previous put in place and enforcing a policy of emigrate or starve.
I began all this undecided as to whether British actions were racist-based indifference or deliberate policy aimed ast solving 'The Irish Question' as suggested by Trevelyan.
Your loutish mouthings have gone a long way to deciding me that the latrter was the case and your brutish behaviour here has given a pretty fair representation of kind of individuals that managed one million= deaths and a continuing cycle of emigrations.
Well don Tear-arse - a valuable contribution to my education
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 07:21 AM

Jim          zero
Reality    five

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 11 Apr 14 - 05:00 AM

OK then Christmas just to get the terminology correct and make it chrystal clear for ANYBODY that is still following this farce:

An EXPORT FROM Britain is one that is sent out of, i.e., leaves Wales, England or Scotland – GOT THAT??
An EXPORT FROM Ireland is one that is sent out of, i.e., leaves Ireland – GOT THAT??

If you have now managed to grasp that rather basic concept then it becomes blatantly obvious that it is IMPOSSIBLE for Britain to export anything out of Ireland – That is all down to command, usage and comprehension of the English language coupled with common sense and logic.

You have been given the figures covering the years 1845 to 1848 they show what was exported from Ireland and what was exported from Britain – over the period in question more was exported from Britain and IMPORTED into Ireland than was exported from Ireland and IMPORTED into Britain - FACT.

In response to your question:
"Did Britain insist that rent arrears should be acted upon, and did they not facilitate mass evictions of bankrupt families for half a century, providing the troops and demolition squads to resist all opposition"

Point 1: The British Government refused to accept as a reason for non-payment of taxes by Irish landowners and Irish farmers the argument that they could not pay their taxes because the rent income from their tenants had not been paid – The landlords had to pay taxes whether they received rents or not. It was not the job of the British Government to collect rent on behalf of the landowners.

Point 2: Non-payment of rent and bankruptcy has got nothing to do with central Government it is a matter of civil law. It is strictly a private business arrangement between landlord and tenant – TRUE?? If for any reason I cannot pay my rent, I do not view it that it is the Government's responsibility or duty to pay it for me. By the way when do you think the "Welfare State" was created?
To answer "Tick" one of the following:
A – 1845
B – 1948

3: Troops were stationed according to rotation in various garrison towns throughout the United Kingdom and the Empire, part of their duties then, as now, included acting as an aid to the civil power in areas and in situations where the rule of law and order maybe challenged and disturbances of the peace may occur that the Police Force cannot control. Such situations are determined by local authorities, not by the Government, the local authority requests assistance, the relevant Government Ministry (Home Office for inside the United Kingdom) evaluates the request then approves or rejects it.

I do not believe and have never seen any evidence that the British Government ever engaged the services of, or provided, demolition squads to assist a landlord in the demolition of his own property.

Present at any legal eviction there would be representatives of the following:
- Landowner
- Civil Court Official
- Bailliffs
- Police if trouble was anticipated
- Troops to support the Police if it had been evaluated that the situation warranted their presence.

The eviction being a purely "civil" matter under law would not involve any participation on the part of the Government.

Now then Christmas let us review what you think the British Government should have done. In your brightly coloured scream you seemed to have forgotten about the added proviso regarding any suggestions that they should reflect what ACTUALLY COULD HAVE BEEN DONE in the mid-1800s:

1: "LEFT THE WORKHOUSES OPEN"
Well when you consider that in 1838 Ireland had no Workhouses to provide refuge for the destitute, take a look at what WAS DONE. By 1845, 128 Workhouses had been built and by 1851, 163 had been built. So during the course of the period under discussion the number of workhouses increased.

Over the period in question did the problems and conditions remain universally constant or did both problems and conditions change not only in nature and scale nationally but also regionally? Obviously as things improved in some regions then resources to those regions were reduced and the finances and resources redirected to other locations where they were still needed. That to my mind seems to be both natural and sensible.

2: "THEY SHOULD HAVE STOPPED IMPORTING FOOD"
WHAT?? Food should not have been sent to Ireland? Or do you not know what you are talking about? I believe that you mean that EXPORTS of food FROM Ireland should have been stopped – basically as anything else just simply does not make sense.

A – Food was not the problem in Ireland to call it a Famine completely misrepresents what was going on. What was needed was money in Ireland, what was needed was employment, what was needed was urgent agrarian reform. Therefore those who were producing food HAD TO be kept in business. They HAD TO be allowed to make money in order to pay taxes to provide the authorities with revenue to sustain the relief effort and also to ensure next year's crops. The production of food in Ireland declined through-out the period under discussion and food had to be EXPORTED FROM Britain and IMPORTED INTO Ireland – FACT.

B - Irrespective of how much food was being grown in Ireland it could not be transported to the areas where it was needed, stored in sufficient quantities and distributed. One of the realities of the situation WAS THAT THE PEOPLE HAD TO MOVE. Said before not even sheep are stupid enough to remain on hills with no grazing.

C – Refusal to look at the global picture and to deliberately ignore its scale and its consequences plays a big part in the Nationalists "Victim" propaganda campaign regarding the "Famine". The blight had not just struck Ireland it had hit other places throughout Europe and mainland Britain as well. It had arrived earlier and was compounded by failures in cereal crops as well on mainland Britain and on the continent and it was this problem that caused those countries to stop exports of food NOT the potato blight.

Cereal crops available for purchase and import were in short supply world-wide and premium prices were charged. Great Britain may well have been one of the richest and most powerful countries in the world at the time but between 1846 and 1848 Great Britain was in the middle of a major financial crisis. These facts whilst inconvenient from the Nationalists arguments perspective still did factor themselves into what was possible, and what was not, from the perspective of those struggling with the problem at the time.

3: "THEY SHOULD HAVE RELEASED THE AVAILABLE FOOD LOCKED UP IN WAREHOUSES"
An apparently nice, neat, obvious, simple sort of solution – but it would not have done any good would it? It would have helped a few in the short term, but that is all it would have done, the problems would only return next year and the cupboards would have been bare. That is precisely what happened when your advice was followed in 1846, when the late harvest of potatoes survived and were distributed. Many of those who received them ate them all or sold them keeping none for planting in 1847, which oddly enough was a Blight Free year yet the "worst year" of the "famine". So the lesson learned was that if you have food stored then you release it in minimum quantities only, so that you always have some to give if things get worse, as they did do in 1848. Throughout this period the British Government and various British Charities were feeding 43% of the population of Ireland.

The main killer was not the lack of food – very few people actually starved to death during this "famine". The figures that astound me are those for 1847, supposedly the "worst year of the famine" where ~250,000 died – where only ~6,000 of them actually died because of want of food. No-one had any understanding of the diseases that ravaged the population during the period under discussion, or any idea of effective treatment or remedies at the time and they would not even begin to do so until 35 years had passed by.

4: "THEY SHOULD HAVE PROVIDED ASSISTANCE TO HELP THE SUFFERING POPULATION RIDE THE WORST EFFECTS OF THE FAMINE RATHER THAN FORCING THEM TO EMIGRATE OR DIE"

As far as was able (i.e. within their capabilities at the time) they did just that. Had the population of Ireland just hunkered down and stayed put they would have died in their millions – they didn't , they moved because THEY HAD TO there were no alternatives. The factors that reduced the population of Ireland in the period under discussion in descending order of magnitude were as follows:
Emigration – 60%
Disease – 32%
Starvation – 8%

While in the remainder of the 1800s Ireland, mainland Britain and Europe did suffer occasional food shortages there was never another "famine". In Ireland that was because the necessary agrarian reforms were implemented and farming became more efficient, less people were making a living off the land and transport infrastructure was greatly improved. All of these measures were NOT imposed on the landowners and farmers by the Government they came into being because it was in their own interests to do so and it was all funded PRIVATELY it was not brought about by Government investment. To maintain the assumption, and assert, that any government in 1845 could act and respond as any government could today is just totally ludicrous and the height of idiocy.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Apr 14 - 12:56 PM

No food whatever should have been exported between 1845 and 1850 - it was.
The warehouses contained plenty of food - they were locked and guarded
There was enough under lock and key to relieve the worst aspects of the famine
The already overcrowded workhouses were closed, relief schemes abandoned and feeding the starving became the responsibilities of charities like the Quakers.
In 1847 (Black '45) the relief scheme was abandoned and the British Government ordered that all Famine relief should be "sold at market prices" so as not to interfere with the laissez-faire policy.
Relief ships were being intercepted at the ports at the height of the Famine and sent back and forth to England in order to inflate the price the good old laissez-faire policy again.
The Government ordered that rent arrears should be acted on, those not able to pay rents should be evicted and the dwellings destroyed so nobody could move back into them - many thousands were forced to live in the fields, some burrowing into the earth as a protection from the elements
The police and the army, along with demolition teams, were provided to facilitate the evictions.
The evictions remained a major part of Irish life to the end of the century.
Stop bluffing - read what has already been put up and justify the actual events - stop retreading something that has is fully documented and accepted
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Apr 14 - 12:23 PM

Jim          zero
Reality      one

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Apr 14 - 11:06 AM

Jim: "Did Britain export enough food out of Ireland to feed the population several times over, as the#at nice Mrs Smith say they did?




"Point 1: I can say with absolute certainty that Britain exported NO food out of Ireland.

Irish landowners and Irish farmers did export food out of Ireland between 1845 and 1851 in ever decreasing amounts, while at the same time the British Government along with quite a few British Charities did export an ever increasing amount of food TO Ireland during that same period. (You have actually been given the figures taken from Cormac Ó Gárda's Book)
"
Facts as presented:

1844 Peel's Government - Exported 424 - Imported 30 - Non-famine year Corn Laws in place
1845 Peel's Government - Exported 513 - Imported 28 - Famine struck late in year, Corn Laws in place
1846 50% Peel/ 50% Russell - Exported 284 - Imported 197 - First full year of the famine Corn Laws repealed
1847 Russell's Government - Exported 146 - Imported 889 - Black '47 Out of a population of some 7 million people Russell's Government is feeding 3 million.
1848 Russell's Government - Exported 314 - Imported 439


So

1844 (non-famine) net 396 exported ( NO starving Irishmen)
1845 (start of famine late in year) net 485 exported
1846 Net 87 exported
1847 Net 743 IMPORTED
1848 Net 125 IMPORTED

So, during the FAMINE YEARS of 45- 48, "England" IMPORTED a net of 296 AFTER all exports by the Irish.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Apr 14 - 10:46 AM

"Care to provide any facts to back up your claims, as others have done here?"
You've had my facts - your friends have complained there are too many of them - site meeting needed to get the three of yu singing from the same hymn book.
I have responded to every single challenge to their arguments (2 of them two and a half counting your good self) - they have refused to respond to documented facts care to have a go yourself
Your starter for ten
Did Britain export enough food out of Ireland to feed the population several times over, as the#at nice Mrs Smith say they did?
If they did, would you care to justify it?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Apr 14 - 09:42 AM

Jim,

Your statements have been refuted, point by point.

Care to provide any facts to back up your claims, as others have done here?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 10 Apr 14 - 09:32 AM

Utter bollocks - it has never been disputed that Britain continued to export four times the amount of food out of Ireland than was capable of feeding the Irish population - even your "definitive" mrs Smith says so.
I assume you are going to continue with straight unqualified denial without evidence - let's see shall we
Did Britain insist that rent arrears should be acted on, and did they not facilitate mass evictions of bankrupt families for half a century, providing the troops and demolition squads to resist all opposition?
Off you go then
"By the bye "what should have been done differently that actually COULD HAVE BEEN DONE?"
Your repetition of this is getting like Keith's Dalek imitations
They should have LEFT THE WORKHOUSES OPEN - THEY SHOULD HAVE STOPPED IMPORTING FOOD - THEY SHOULD HAVE RELEASED THE AVAILABLE FOOD LOCKED UP IN WAREHOUSES - THEY SHOULD HAVE PROVIDED ASSISTANCE TO HELP THE SUFFERING POPULATION RIDE THE WORST EFFECTS OF THE FAMINE RATHER THAN FORCING THEM TO EMIGRATE OR DIE
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 10 Apr 14 - 06:12 AM

"Did Britain export enough food out of Ireland to feed the population several times over, as the#at nice Mrs Smith say they did?
If they did, would you care to justify it?"

Point 1: I can say with absolute certainty that Britain exported NO food out of Ireland.

Irish landowners and Irish farmers did export food out of Ireland between 1845 and 1851 in ever decreasing amounts, while at the same time the British Government along with quite a few British Charities did export an ever increasing amount of food TO Ireland during that same period. (You have actually been given the figures taken from Cormac Ó Gárda's Book)

Point 2: Justification for the export of any food from Ireland during the period 1845 to 1851? Now that is both simple and obvious Christmas - Those producing the food had to survive and Ireland needed the cash.

Point 3: Please don't get too hung up on this being a "Famine" - Lack of food was not what was killing people - disease was. (Figures already supplied - worst year of the "Famine" Black'47 ~250,000 people died in Ireland that year - of that number only 6,000 starved - normal yearly death toll in Ireland was something in the order of 134,000 - taken from Joel Mokyr's studies on the subject)

Ready for your next question Christmas

By the bye "what should have been done differently that actually COULD HAVE BEEN DONE?

I have listed the steps taken to provide assistance to relieve the effects of the Blight, and you seem to completely ignore the rather obvious fact that had there been a deliberate policy of genocide in place then no steps would have been taken at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Apr 14 - 03:21 PM

Just like Billy Connolly once said about policemen - If you want to confuse them, just ask them a question!!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Apr 14 - 09:37 AM

Tell you what – let's simplify it
Your starter for ten
Did Britain export enough food out of Ireland to feed the population several times over, as the#at nice Mrs Smith say they did?
If they did, would you care to justify it?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Apr 14 - 09:27 AM

o - the polivcies like closing workhouses, locking up food, leaving people the options of emigrate or starve
You've had all this - you haven't even bothered acknowledging it, let alone dispute it
The facts man - the facts
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 09 Apr 14 - 08:33 AM

Policies leading to the famine Christmas?

Like

Audited costs to the British Government of aid given £9.95 million.

As demonstrated by the figures relating to imports of grain into Ireland over the period of the famine steadily increasing as exports from Ireland declined sharply - If you have figures that dispute that then I would be glad to see them.

That at the height of the Famine 43% of the population of Ireland was being fed and three quarters of a million people were being given work?

Deployment of Royal Naval vessels to distribute aid on the west coast of Ireland.

That the number of workhouses in Ireland went from 0 in 1838 to 128 in 1845 to 163 in 1851.

That an assisted passage scheme was instigated for those who wished to travel to the new world.

That due to policies adopted Ireland never suffered another famine.

NOW
Still waiting to hear what should have been done differently that actually COULD HAVE BEEN DONE.

Still waiting to hear how the diseases that raged throughout the period and which actually accounted for the vast majority of the deaths could have been attended to between 1845 and 1851 when no-one had any clear understanding of them or the effective treatment of them until the early 1880s.

Still waiting to hear your substantive evidence to support your contention that Charles Edward Trevelyan was a religious fanatic.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Apr 14 - 07:30 AM

Nothing? - thought not
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Apr 14 - 10:34 AM

"Still waiting for your evidence of people being forced onto ships"
Still waiting for your response to the listed causes of the famine - and have been since to brought your loutishly boorish behavior onto this discussion
You first, but I've given up holding my breath
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Apr 14 - 09:37 AM

Given up on the preposterous accusations and claims of deliberate genocide put forward by your good-self Christmas - DREAM ON.

Still waiting for your evidence of people being forced onto ships - Now I know they were on the west coast of Scotland, as the landowners paid for the ships, but no-one was forced onto a ship in Ireland. The most common drill was Ireland to England get a job and save then book passage to the new world - your pal Terry Coleman would probably tell you that if you asked him. Passage on the Steam powered paddle steamers was expensive, passage on merchant ships a great deal cheaper.

The "Irish Times" has a good site for tracing relatives who emigrated to the new world it lists some 225 ships most of whom sailed from Liverpool - look it up and take note of passenger numbers and the low number of deaths. A ship that either yourself or your mate Terry mentioned - The Sailing Barque the British Queen - she is mentioned - three passages in 1851 sailing from Londonderry to New York 6th May 1851 (94 Passengers, No deaths); Dublin to New York 18th June 1851 (244 Passengers, No deaths); Dublin to Nantucket 21st October 1851 (235 Passengers, 5 Deaths).

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 08 Apr 14 - 08:27 AM

Noticed that after I posted it Triplane - Made me smile too
You seem have given up on Ireland - which is just as well from your point of view
AS far as your attempts to smear a WW1 veteran as a liar - Keith got there first
Our recordings are of him are housed in the British Library, so perhaps you should contact them and tell them they have a fraud on the premises
The slimeball level you turds seem prepared to sink to to defend the Empire seem to have no depths
As far as your 'Fortnum and Mason jibe.
I lived in Kikby, just outside Liverpool, said to be one of the largest slum clearance estates in Europe
It was a half hour bus-ride to the centre. Everybody living on the estate referred to Liverpool a 'Town' For a dozen years of my life, bfore moving to London -
I served my apprenticeship as an electrician on the Docks, which is one of the things I had in common with "liar" Tommy Kenny.
What did you do in the war daddy - apart from your stint in the Boy Scouts and T.A?
You must have an extremely sore throat talking down to people from the hole you've dug for yourself
Come up with something or slither off
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 08 Apr 14 - 08:03 AM

Yes Triplane I thought it quite a classic Christmas line and it gave me a good chuckle. There is another even better one further up the thread.

Now Christmas as YOU have brought this up:

"I adimired your slimy attempts to nause up another thread by quoting the rule book"

Here's how it seems to work Christmas - you post a load of idiotic, far-fetched, emotive, hysterical crap, most of it just made up - and then I take you to task for it deploying what I regard as being reasonable logical thought backed up with relevant historical fact and statistics. You then claim that you didn't mean that in the first place but refuse to address specific points made that point to even your modified story being the load of crap that it is. We are then subjected to massive screeds of cut'n'pastes the relevance of which can at times be mystifying. I then pull you up further on it and then you call me nasty names and sulk.

Rule Book Christmas?? What on earth are you going on about? Your old Docker pal and all those deserters he knew picked up in all that "constant" mud by Readcoats riding around in trucks. Picked up to be shoved into the first advance line of any "push" and then if they survived they would be picked up again to be shot either before or after being condemned at a drum-head court martial, whose clerks obviously to increase the chaps morale posted notices announcing the deaths on the trench noticeboard. No rule book Christmas all I did was post the actual numbers of those shot for desertion for you. Now if you dispute those numbers or the detail relating to the conduct of courts martial then let's hear it.

Christmas IIRC you once regaled us of your terribly hard and discrimination ridden life growing up in Liverpool, so I was rather intrigued at this bit:

"A friend from Liverpool contacted me and asked me if I would help him interview his Grandfather, who he said was getting old and had done a lot of interesting things in his life.

A group of us drove down from London one Friday and met at my friends house"

How posh for you and your chums to drive down to Liverpool from "Town" - How utterly Edwardian, did you pack your Fortnum & Mason's hamper to sustain you on your journey?

Also liked this bit:

"He described the permanent, deafening noise of gunfire and how young men, little more than boys, would turn around and walk away from the front, not in an attempt to desert, just to get way from the sound."

Know the feeling well - I do the same when twats play Beatle songs in folk clubs.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: GUEST,Triplane
Date: 07 Apr 14 - 04:10 PM

Do people really read what they write here?
This is a diamond amongst lesser gems

"I've really finished responding to your facile crap until you respond to some of mine"

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Apr 14 - 10:45 AM

They were given two alternatives but to get on these floating coffins - die at the side of the road or emigrate, whether you were fit to withstand the conditions or not.
You ask that nice Mrs Smith.
Enough diversive waffle - answer the points you have been requested to and have studiously avoided or sling you hook.
You've had all the responses you are getting
I adimired your slimy attempts to nause up another thread by quoting the rule book - you really can't trust those lying WW1 veterans, especially when they criticise the Empire - ask the monkey, he's already told us that.
Slimeball
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Apr 14 - 10:45 AM

They were given two alternatives but to get on these floating coffins - die at the side of the road or emigrate, whether you were fit to withstand the conditions or not.
You ask that nice Mrs Smith.
Enough diversive waffle - answer the points you have been requested to and have studiously avoided or sling you hook.
You've had all the responses you are getting
I adimired your slimy attempts to nause up another thread by quoting the rule book - you really can't trust those lying WW1 veterans, especially when they criticise the Empire - ask the monkey, he's already told us that.
Slimeball
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Apr 14 - 10:36 AM

And where exactly does Mr Terry Coleman say that people were forcibly put on ships? After all it was you who stated the following wasn't it?

"The forcible shipping out of sick and dying human beings was a contributory factor"

Which is quite a bit different from what you are now trying to rather pathetically state:

"Starving people were left no alternative other than to pack onto overcrowded and unsuitable coffin ships"

And even that, strictly speaking, is not true is it? Classic example of emotive, hysterical claptrap laid on with a trowel.

When it comes ability related to reading things and understanding what they are saying, believe me I do not need help from anyone - wish that the same could be said about you.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 07 Apr 14 - 08:51 AM

"Any substantive evidence at all to back that one up Christmas?"
Starving people were left no alternative other than to pack onto overcrowded and unsuitable coffin ships - any evidence to show that's not the case?
Try Terry Coleman - I'm sure someone will read it for you if you ask around.
I've really finished responding to your facile crap until you respond to some of mine
You've had the facts and figures - including from you own "definitive" researcher - answer them or go on a rout march and get some of the bile out of your system - and take your monkey with you.
Jimmy Riddle (does hat help your limited repertoire of abuses in any way?)

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 07 Apr 14 - 03:25 AM

"The forcible shipping out of sick and dying human beings was a contributory factor"

Any substantive evidence at all to back that one up Christmas?

" British policy of refusing to feed the poor starved the Irish"

Hmmm interesting then that at the height of the famine British Policy was feeding somewhere between 43% and 47% of the population.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 07:40 AM

I too would be angry if any of that was true.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 05:09 AM

"Calm yourself, and decide if you are going to challenge the statements about famine teaching in schools."
How dare you - why should I bother responding to something you claim to have been stated by an author you have not read - nor have you ever read any author on the subject you have now dominated a discussion on - and proudly admitted that you don't need to.
I've had it with your behaviour, your racism and your dedicated arrogance.
I don't believe for one moment you will, but the least you can do is apologise to the members of this forum you have slurred and withdraw your hateful remarks - but that would be grovelling, wouldn't it.
I got up this morning intending to submit my intended complaints to the form administrator to you first
Your continuing arrogant behaviour has decided me that there really is no point
I really didn't join Mudcat to be told that me and my family - and everyone else in receipt of an Irish, Anglo-Irish or Anglo-American had been brought up to hate Britain
Nor did I expect, on an otherwise liberal, tolerant and open-minded forum, that all Asians had been culturally conditioned to lust after under-age girls.
This really is sewer politics at its worst and it is dragging down this forum.
If that is the type of garbage Mudcat is catering for - I no longer wish to be part of it.   
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Musket
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 04:43 AM

Dunno about the famine, but what's all this about having an open mind Keith?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 04:42 AM

Calm yourself, and decide if you are going to challenge the statements about famine teaching in schools.
I do not think that you can.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 04:30 AM

Reputed historian bollocks - tell it to the administrator of this site
One again you are using this forum as an open attack on other races and religions and I intend to do my level best to stop you this time
I am sick to the stomach of your openly racist behaviour - this time in an attack on groups who are direct contributors to this forum and this thread.
Take your racist filth elsewhere
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 04:19 AM

Still insisting that us Anglo Irish and Anglo Americans are brainwashed, hate filled morons then?

No.
I do not consider recipients of faith school education to be brainwashed either.

I do believe it to be a fact that Irish and NYS schools taught that Britain was culpable because a reputable historian stated it and neither you nor anyone else has challenged that fact.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 06 Apr 14 - 02:42 AM

"Taught to believe that Britain is culpable."
Still insisting that us Anglo Irish and Anglo Americans are brainwashed, hate filled morons then?
Fair enough
I' ll add it to the formal complain I'm in the process of compiling on your now out-of-control behaviour on this forum - vicious racist attacks on members of this forum should just about do it.
I was going to ask that you me warned, but as your behaviour seems to have settled into a now recognisable pattern, I intend to request that you be expelled.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Apr 14 - 05:35 PM

hey suffered greatly but it was from various acts of nature,

Naah, PeeDee, it was an Act of God.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 05 Apr 14 - 03:46 PM

Irish schools at least since 1922 and NY State schools since 1996 by decree - Massachusetts?"

Taught to believe that Britain is culpable.
Do you deny it Jim?
I gave my source.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 05 Apr 14 - 03:32 PM

"Nice to see that nobody was baited into criticising the Irish."
What!!!!!
"Not surprising when generations of school children have been brainwashed to believe Britain should be blamed, keeping hate alive.
Irish schools at least since 1922 and NY State schools since 1996 by decree - Massachusetts?"
Guess who?
"12 Mar 14 - 07:13 AM"
And his mate Terminus
'a nations of indolent morons besotted with their "whining" patriotic songs'
Ah well - perhaps you hven't read it all
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: pdq
Date: 05 Apr 14 - 02:31 PM

Nice to see that nobody was baited into criticising the Irish.

They suffered greatly but it was from various acts of nature, not all the fault of those Brits.

It was over 150 years ago and the Irish prosper all over the World. Can we get over this?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Apr 14 - 04:56 PM

Anyway - historians opinions aside - what, from your deep knowledge and understanding - is your opinion on British policy - nobody else's - yours.

I have an open mind Jim, but how can you deny that culpability is disputed?

Do you deny that revisionist historians exist, or that they "deny culpability" and "rehabilitate the British Government" (Kinealy)?

Their view is actually the "dominant" view among historians.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Apr 14 - 11:57 AM

"King Henry V and Sir Francis Drake both died of dysentery. Are we to assume that an evil English government starved them too?"
What - are you out of your mind - British policy of refusing to feed the poor starved the Irish
The forcible shipping out of sick and dying human beings was a contributory factor
If you need me to explain it - again -I will
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: beardedbruce
Date: 04 Apr 14 - 11:15 AM

No,
GregF,


That would be you.

The guinea pigs are calling you again. Ever get your duct tape?