BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 01:39 PM

That second should read 'closing workhouses' - happened
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 11:42 AM

"Most historians."
Which choices exactly are disputed -
Closing warehouses - don't think so.
Closing warehouses - nope - definitely happened.
Laissez-faire policy - nope, down in black and white
Trevelyan's hatred of the Irish - likewise
The British Government appointing such a man to feed the people he hated - a million corpses to confirm this.
Coffin ship casualties - done and dusted
Irish left only the choice of dying or leaving Ireland - ancient history
Being racially abused both in England and America - libraries full of books on the subject.
Murderous evictions leaving thousands of families to starve on the roadside (a practice which continued to the end of the 19th century) - a legacy to prove it.
Your and your blustering mate's refusal to even acknowledge a single one of these doesn't mean they didn't happen - only that you support them having happened and would no doubt, should such circumstances recur, do so again
Rule Britannia
Yup - definitely a Dalek
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 10:45 AM

Sorry... this would read better as

"But that is human nature at its lowest, and I dare you to deny that such attitudes were not present in 1847 Britain... or assert that the quest for short term success was less important to the ruling classes than the welfare of the poor."

Food was exported from Ireland during the famine... and not by the starving poor, I dare say. Then who, pray tell?

And your premise: "Well yes logically it is easier to move people from a place in which all they will ever be able to do is subsist and suffer, with ever increasing frequency, chronic food shortages and unemployment." is based on what? That large sections of the Irish land mass somehow disappeared... or was made sterile? Or is is actually that large tracts of land had been "given" to political allies of the ruling British classes... leaving the Irish to be "tenants" in their own country, while the agricultural products were exported by enrich the coffers of the "new" land owners.

Don't worry, it's not like it hasn't been done elsewhere... America has nothing to be proud about when it comes to our treatment of Native Americans. The "lucky" survivors got stuck onto reservations... with high unemployment and other social ills that are "obviously" their own fault... for what? losing out to an overwhelming horde of European invaders?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 10:15 AM

There is no argument that these were the choices made

Yes there is.
Most historians.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 10:14 AM

All you have to do is transfer the situation in Ireland to say, Birmingham, and see if the decisions taken would have been acceptable, or even conceivable there THEY WOULD NOT.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 10:10 AM

"Where there's a will, there's a way"
Exactly - The British Empire was incredibly wealthy at the time of the Famine - more than capable of relieving the suffering of the Irish people other than allowing them to die or forcing them to emigrate
There is no argument that these were the choices made - pretty obvious from the fact that neither of these comedians have responded to these facts.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 09:56 AM

On "Coffin" Ships here is another possible contender for ships that could justly be called "Coffin" Ships – Look up Sir Edward Pine Coffin,

More likely William Sloane Coffin, T-Bird.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 09:15 AM

no idea where the rest of the original post went...

BUT... I see no reason to make excuses for some of the actions taken by those in power at the time that reflect a combination of callus indifference to the suffering of others coupled with a prevailing prejudice against the Irish in general and Catholics in particular.

Anymore than I make excuses for the mean spirited politics and bigotry that allows hunger to exist in America - hardly an impoverish nation or in the grips of a famine- because of the greed of a privileged few that control an unreasonable amount of money and influenece... al so they can accumulate even more wealth than they already have. camel hell... a T-rex would have a better chance getting through that eye of a needle than some of these SOBs.

But that is human nature at its lowest, and I dare you to deny that such attitudes were not present in 1847 Britain... or that the quest for short term success was less important to the ruling classes than the welfare of the poor.

Forty years earlier, Britain managed to move troops and supplies in Europe during their wars with France & its allies... a daunting task... but they pulled it off. Where there's a will, there's a way... as the old saying goes.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 08:53 AM

"ou are trying to infer or claim that 625,000 "
No I am not - I pointed out that that was the first year - a time when hastily acquired and unprepared ships were assembled to herd the undesirables onto ships unfit for purpose rather than feed them from the locked warehouses, house them on closed warehouses or prevent the corruption surrounding the famine relief boats - all a matter of choice really - continue and develop Peel's efforts or just ship the victims to nations who didn't really want them.
Mitchel's belief was propaganda for getting rid of an Empire which made such choices - I've no problem with that.
It doesn't alter what those choices were in one iota - uless of course, you are claiming that the warehouses were empty, the workhouses fully operational, no corruption was happening and no food being exported out of Ireland - wouldn't surprise me in the slightest.
"The Hastings/Coogan thing just demonstrates your hypocrisy, bigotry and bias."
Then explain Keith's accepting Hastings as a Historian and Coogan as not - other than one fits your bill the other doesn't.
Hypocrisy writ large.
"So only Tim Pat Coogan has got substantive proof that Phlalethes and Charles Edward Trevelyan are indeed the same person"
Enough proof to publish the letter in full with dates and details AND NOT BE CHALLENGED BY ANY SINGLE HISTORIAN INCLUDING KENNEDY - WHO TOTALLY IGNORED IT WHEN COOGAN RAISED IT.
I should have thought a denial of Trevelian's authorship would have sent Coogan's case tumbling, don't you?
Trevelyan's letter has never been denied, just ignored for political expediency.
By the way, what is freely available is Trevelyan's re-iteration of his "God's punishment, indolent Irish" approach to his task in an autobiographical account of his work in Ireland some years later.
It was his view, he did what he did, Britain appointed him and backed what he did - result = one million dead, half a century of evictions and a century and a half plus of continuing emigration.
The Society of Friends and other charities were carrying out reliefe work to make up for the malicious neglect of Britain, who would no more "close them down" than would the powers that be today would prevent the work of Oxfam.
This in no way means that Britain didn't carry out a policy that led to waht it did - the more-than decimation of an entire nation.
Now answer some of the points and stop waffling
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 08:46 AM

Musket dear, I did not choose the terms.
Those are the terms used to describe the different schools of Irish History.
I am so sorry that you do not approve, and I am sure they are too.

Jim, I have used the terms correctly throughout and have tried to explain them to you several times.

I have no favoured historians or opinions on this period, but I know that opinions are divided and I hope that you have now learned that too.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Musket
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 08:38 AM

What has the word nationalist got to do with revisionist?

Revision means revising and possibly by that altering an original view, point, fact or hypothesis.

Nationalism means wearing a blazer in November and pretending an abstract construction such as country means something.

Playing black and white again are we Keith? Are you saying that to criticise the callous imperial mindset of The Westminster government means you are full square behind the romantic singing of The Clancy Brothers or Bobby Sands?

Add the word insulting to the list....

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 08:15 AM

"More quibbling about the "coffin ships" does not alter by one corpse the number of people who died on them - it just shuffles around them - as you apologists do."

Don't believe I personally have shuffled anything around – you are trying to infer or claim that 625,000 people died on the ships transporting emigrants from the British isles to either Canada or America during the famine of 1845 to 1851 – Now if one was to accept that between 1845 and 1855 two million Irish men, women and children emigrated to the new world that would mean that just over 31% died. Only trouble is Christmas that just doesn't tally with the numbers who landed and went on to live in the new world. Joel Mokyr an ecomonics historian however has studied the numbers and his percentage indicates only 5% lost their lives. Now do I believe him, or do I believe you? Professor Mokyr has an international reputation in his field of study and is widely acclaimed, you on the other hand I know for a fact have a long history of just making stuff up, and deliberately misrepresenting things to suit your general anti-British bias. So if you don't mind I will go with the good Professor.

"Cecil Woodham Smith's The Great Hunger certainly is not "definitive" - it is merely an excellent introduction to the subject."

Much acclaimed when it was written back in 1962, it was critically reviewed by historians as being overly harsh on Trevelyan. When I read it I thought it was a good book and your view is shared by:

Great Famine Interpreters - Old & New

The writer also comes down on the side that there was no great deliberate plot and that Mitchel's book was propaganda.

What evidence do you wish to concoct to substantiate your claim that Trevelyan was a religious fanatic? I mean this is the same supposed religious fanatic who in one letter dated 29 April 1846, wrote:

"Our measures must proceed with as little disturbance as possible of the ordinary course of private trade, which must ever be the chief resource for the subsistence of the people, but, coûte que coûte (at any cost), the people must not, under any circumstances, be allowed to starve."

Strange words to use for a man hell bent in destroying the Irish nation by starving them to death don't you think?

"I stumbled across the debate between Kennedy and Coogan on 'The Famine Plot' - fascinating listening."

Yes it was Christmas and Kennedy ran circles round Coogan, even although Coogan was given more time.

"Kennedy, whatever his qualifications, turns out to be" - A Historian Not a Hack ("Your words Christmas").

Reading up about Trevelyan I came across this bit of nonsense written by one Ciarán Ó Murchadha, from his book "The Great potato famine: Ireland's Agony 1845-1852":

"The Peelite Relief Programs that were in operation during the beginning years of the famine were shut down on July 21, 1846 by Charles Wood, 1st Viscount Halifax, on Trevelyan's orders"

Now just looking at who was who in that statement you had Charles Wood, 1st Viscount Halifax, who was the Chancellor of the Exchequer, second most important political appointment in the Whig Government of Lord John Russell, and you had Charles Edward Trevelyan the British civil servant chiefly responsible for administering Irish relief policy throughout the famine years (He didn't pick up his KCB until 1848). Now then you tell me who was in a position to give who orders? (Hint: It certainly wasn't Trevelyan). By the way what holiday did Trevelyan take between 1845 and 1852?

"One thing I had missed when I read Coogan's book, which I revisited last night, was an appendix containing a long letter sent anonymously by Trevelyan (under the pseudonym Philalethes) to The Morning Chronicle (Oct. 11th 1843), expressing his hatred of the Irish as lazy malcontents who didn't appreciate the benefits of the British Empire"
I have never come across Trevelyan's letter before and can find no reference to it elsewhere - a historical cover-up?

So only Tim Pat Coogan has got substantive proof that Phlalethes and Charles Edward Trevelyan are indeed the same person, as no reference is made to this letter elsewhere, so it MUST BE a cover up? What about if Trevelyan didn't write the letter at all? Oh by the way as to the Irish being lazy I would refer you to the link you supplied "Famine deaths" and acquaint yourself with what Professor Joel Mokyr says about the Irish on that point – their indolence, personal hygiene and living habits were all massive contributory factors with regard to death from contagious diseases.
   
"Comparing other famines with the Irish one is more or less equivalent to saying human rights atrocities are acceptable because everybody does them"

The only points of comparison that I have made have centred on:

1: Ireland was not the only place struck by this particular famine, but is the only place in which people, such as yourself are wittering on about deliberate plots and genocide purely to advance a political objective.

2: That while famines raged throughout Europe the British Government was the only Government that put in place a relief effort (Over three-quarters of a million men engaged in Government sponsored work programmes and just over three million people being fed).

"You have described The Famine as "unprecedented" - it was.
The way it was handled was Genocidal - whether it was deliberately so is what should be debated."

No case to answer, the charge just simply cannot be substantiated. All factual evidence points to the opposite of deliberate genocide.

"Your advocating for Hastings doesn't make a happorth of difference - not to me anyway."

The Hastings/Coogan thing just demonstrates your hypocrisy, bigotry and bias.

"You want to make a point about the Famine - do so."

I have done so, shooting down one argument of yours after another

"Don't compare it to other famines"

Ah only the Irish Famine counts eh? How parochial of you

"don't waffle about who invented coffin ships"

Nobody invented "Coffin" Ships Christmas it was a term already in use before the famine ever occurred, what was under discussion was the fact that the term did not originate with the Famine. Don't dare to presume to tell me what I can and cannot mention in conversation with others on this forum.

"come out from behind the reputations of 'prominent historians and address the facts"

Well you see Christmas on this topic all those prominent historians have studied the period and they have addressed the facts in far, far greater detail than either you or I have, and recognizing that reality I tend to be influenced by what they, not you have written and said on the subject.

So ALL attempts at relief were abandoned were they? That is at odds with what was actually done, the Government did not shut down all relief efforts and independent relief efforts such as those mounted by the Society of Friends and other continued their work.

"that is what lies at the heart of over a million deaths and a permanent culture of Irish emigration ever since."

"Aw Jayzus, here we are in two thousand and fourteen lads, and we've all got the f**k off out of it because of what those bastard Brits did damn near 170 years ago" – Just how pathetic can you get Christmas.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 07:21 AM

I've already put up your document - by the way
or suggested that it was somehow inevitable and not the fault of the British government
Which is more or less what you pair are doing.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 07:16 AM

That explains why the British closed the warehouses, workhouses, contuned to export food and enforced emigration while allowing mass evictions of tenants - which lasted for another half century half-century - damn, I didn't thinks of that.
If you don't mind, Id rather go with the suggestion that Britain appointed someone who hated the Irish (and said so) to distribute food and allowed him to carry out a cull of undesirables - at least, until a bettes suggestion comes along.
The Irish economy, agrarian and rural, was as it was under British rule - It wasn't changed in any way because it suited the Empire to leave it as it was - Britain's breadbasket.
There were no attempts at modernisation - it remained a basic peasant economy - and referred to as such.
That situation was prevalent throughout the Empire - each colony alloted its role in feeding the beast.
Any attempts to alter that situation were firmly and bloodily imposed.
Probably the best example of the Imperial mindset was 'Poor Little Belgium's' slaughtering 10,000.000 Congolese.
You want to excuse Britain's policy, do so and stop waffling around long dismissed excuses.
Keith's historians have all made their views clear that it was Britain's "callous" laissez-faire policy that caused so many deaths, whether it was intended or not.
Keith - if I wanted a group of gods to worship, I'd join a pantheist church - historians produce facts on which we can make up our own minds (those of us who have them) - they do not deliver scriptures writ in stone
You might find that if you ever get round to reading one.
There is no confusion of the term revision - just the way you have adapted it to mean whatever you want it to mean.
I'm happy to dip into the earlier discussion in which you used it as an outright condemnation of all historians other than your own and produced a massive list of your having done so, only to have it totally ignored by you.
Go and play in the garden and maybe we'll go for a walk - after you've taken your medicine, of course
Your mindless repetition on inanities only manages to convince that you are really a Dalek.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 06:40 AM

Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 10:38 AM
Jim, I am not the historian, and I did not expect you to agree with them all, but they are eminent and respected.
I did not choose the terms "nationalist" and "revisionist" as applied to historians of the famine.
Google "revisionist nationalist history famine ireland" and see what comes up.

I also gave this link to a page that explains the usage fully.
http://www.iisresource.org/Documents/KS3_Famine_Interpretations.pdf

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 06:32 AM

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Famine
From: Keith A of Hertford - PM
Date: 16 Jul 13 - 02:58 AM

Steve, it was a famine triggered by the blight.
All historians agree it was catastrophic for Ireland.
The old "nationalist" historians regarded the English as being uniquely uncaring and the Irish as uniquely the victims.

"Revisionist" historians challenge the view that England was culpable.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 06:28 AM

Revisionism and Nationalism in the context of famine History has been laid out from the beginning of the discussion on the previous thread.

I am amazed that you two find the terms so confusing.
Come back when you have got it clear in your little minds.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Musket
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 06:24 AM

You know, you can't bandy the word revision around without reference to the index text.

What was that?

Anyone?

Hello?




This is also an excellent cart before the horse. The thread asks for debate on the cause of potato blight, and the discussion is about the reaction to the potato blight.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 06:20 AM

Keith dismissed it as "revisionist" whatever his mind has interpreted the term

No. Keith described Woodham-Smith as Nationalist, the opposite of Revisionist.
I did not choose the terms used by historians, but it is not that hard to grasp Jim!

I am not "demanding "evidence from real historians" "
I am pointing out that they are divided, and that your view is a minority one.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 05:52 AM

"125,000 died on the voyage in one year alone 1847
That was one year - the famine lasted for 5"

And?? Are you trying to infer that the 125,000 is an average? (Of course it isn't) That as the famine lasted 5 years therefore 625,000 people must have died making the journey from Ireland to the new world? (Nowhere near that number died crossing the Atlantic)

Another figure that has been bandied about has been that 30% of those setting out across the Atlantic from Ireland died – Again that is not true. One man who has studied this extensively is Joel Mokyr and he, as I have previously stated, put the overall percentage of those dying on passage as being 5%, specifically mentioning and drawing our attention to the year 1847 as being untypical.

On the link entitled "Famine deaths" written by Professor Joel Mokyr, supplied by Christmas, there is one thing of which I am certain, he either did not read it (Because if he did it blows his deliberate plot and genocide theory out of the water), or if he did, like journalist Tim Pat Coogan, he simply just did not understand what it was that he was reading.

Black '47 – the worst year of the famine, the famine which Christmas, and his supporters on this forum, claim was an act of deliberate genocide on the part of the British Government to wipe out the Irish nation by deliberately starving them to death. In 1847 the worst year of the famine in Ireland 6,000 people starved to death according to the link that Christmas provided. Just under quarter of a million people did die that year but not from starvation. Yet Christmas puts forward the case that if food had been provided to the people (logistically impossible to do as was discovered at the time) by the British Government then all would have been well. Professor Joel Mokyr in his paper tells you different Christmas and he explains the whys and the wherefores – you just simply did not read them, or understand them.

But here is the bit that blows Christmas's claims out of the water – taken directly from Professor Joel Mokyr's paper:

VIII: CONCLUSION
The dimensions of a disaster depend on the size of the impact and the vulnerability of
the society upon which it is inflicted. The functional relation between outcome and the two
determinants is, however, additive rather than multiplicative. Even seemingly invulnerable
societies can be devastated if the impact is large enough. Conversely, weak and vulnerable
societies may survive for long periods if they are lucky enough to avoid major challenges.

Sadly, Ireland was not lucky.
Ireland's vulnerability was in terms of its overall poverty, the physical impossibility
of storing potatoes, and the thinness of markets in basic subsistence goods due to the
prevalence of the potato. But there is a second dimension to the vulnerability which
compounds the first one, and that is that all populations of the time were vulnerable to an
increase in the incidence of infectious diseases in case of outside shocks. The absence of a
clear understanding of the nature of disease meant that the privations and disruptions of the
Famine quickly translated themselves into the horror-filled statistics of Wilde's 1851 "Tables of Deaths".

It bears repeating that in past famines, including the Great Irish Famine, most
victims were not killed directly by hunger and exposure but by micro-organisms. Neither
the victims, NOR THE AUTHORITIES, NOR MEDICAL EXPERTS understood this basic fact
until the 1880s. Their ignorance of the exact nature of what it was that was killing most victims is a
crucial element in determining the demographic impact of past famines. The main reason
why modern famines differ from past famines is that today we understand the role that
infectious disease plays during nutritional crises. A careful analysis of epidemics during past
famines can therefore help us toward a better understanding of precisely what happened in
the past. The understanding of the epidemiology and etiology of infectious diseases and the
physiology of their symptoms, and the knowledge of how to treat patients suffering from
basic ailments such as fever and diarrhoea will remain with us even if antibiotics lose some
of their effectiveness with the proliferation of drug-resistant strains. Moreover, even in the
presence of severe food scarcities, the complete collapse of hygiene and personal care can be
prevented. In this respect, the timing of the Irish famine was as tragic as its dimensions:
had Phytophthora Infestans attacked only a few decades later, better understanding of the
basic mechanisms of death thanks to the scientific advances following the work of Pasteur
and Koch might have saved many thousands of lives."

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 05:38 AM

More quibbling about the "coffin ships" does not later by one corpse the number of people who died on them - it just shuffles around them - as you apologists do.
Cecil Woodham Smith's The Great Hunger certainly is not "definitive" - it is merely an excellent introduction to the subject.
Keith dismissed it as "revisionist" whatever his mind has interpreted the term.
The 150th anniversary of the Famine produced a whole batch of fresh studies on the subject - many of them examining the political motivation and the implications of appointing a religious fanatic like Trevelyan to be put in charge of distributing food to a population he despised - his actions show that.
If that were not enough, I stumbled across the debate between Kennedy and Coogan on 'The Famine Plot' - fascinating listening.
Kennedy describes Trevelyan as "a dedicated workaholic" struggling to feed the starving people
Kennedy, whatever his qualifications, turns out to be no more than a Famine apologist - like you pair of clowns.
He in no way attempts to explain Trevelyan's hatred of the Irish, nor why such a man should have been appointed - he certainly never refers to the fact that Trevelyan decided to take a long holiday in the middle of the Famine - leaving the Irish to continue to starve.
One thing I had missed when I read Coogan's book, which I revisited last night, was an appendix containing a long letter sent anonymously by Trevelyan (under the pseudonym Philalethes) to The Morning Chronicle (Oct. 11th 1843), expressing his hatred of the Irish as lazy malcontents who didn't appreciate the benefits of the British Empire - this is the man who was appointed to feed the people he hated.
I have never come across Trevelyan's letter before and can find no reference to it elsewhere - a historical cover-up?   
Comparing other famines with the Irish one is more or less equivalent to saying human rights atrocities are acceptable because everybody does them - as you both have done
You have described The Famine as "unprecedented" - it was.
The way it was handled was Genocidal - whether it was deliberately so is what should be debated.
Your advocating for Hastings doesn't make a happorth of difference - not to me anyway.
I haven't read his book and haven't commented on what he wrote - I pointed out that his latest work was cited as being "weak on the causes of WW1 - no more.
My reason for raising his name was to point out the hypocrisy of Keith (who still hasn't read a book as as far as I know) demanding "evidence from real historians" while basing his entire arguments (on WW1) on the writings of a tabloid journalist, with no historical qualifications, permanently employed a notoriously jingoistic producer of rightist bum-fodder - how crassly dishonest can you get.
You want to make a point about the Famine - do so.
Don't compare it to other famines - don't waffle about who invented coffin ships - come out from behind the reputations of 'prominent historians and address the facts, which are simply based on the Government decision to abandon all attempts at relief and opt for "inevitable" mass deaths and/or enforced emigration - that is what lies at the heart of over a million deaths and a permanent culture of Irish emigration ever since.
Stop waffling and blustering - stick to the point boy!
Yours
Christmas
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: GUEST,sciencegeek
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 05:28 AM

"Odd isn't it that during this same period people were flocking to America from all over Europe for exactly the same reasons that the Irish were emigrating – no accusations of genocide there though, strange really as in most of those countries their Governments did not lift a finger to help those fleeing."

A spurious argument at best... since the topic was the Irish Potato Blight which was co-opted into the Irish Famine... which involved a far greater proportion of the overall population than on the continent.

Now why don't we get down to the real case here and cut the BS...

my case has been that on one in the early part of the 1800's had the knowledge to properly deal with the blight... we have enough problems even today dealing with plant pathogens. So the crop failures were inevitable. I also indicated that some of the well meant relief efforts failed because of ignorance.

BUT... I see no reason to make excuses for some of the actions taken by those in power at the time that reflect a combination of callus indifference to the suffering of others coupled with a prevailing prejudice against the Irish in general and Catholics in particular.

Anymore than I make excuses for the

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 25 Mar 14 - 04:34 AM

1: »Quibbling with a post on this thread does not change historical facts"
I could not agree more sciencegeek and so far not one single fact provided indicates that there was ever any deliberate intent or plan on the part of the British Government to carry out a campaign of genocide in Ireland between 1845 and 1851. Now the fact that they could have handled things far better is not in doubt, but there was no deliberate campaign. On "Coffin" Ships here is another possible contender for ships that could justly be called "Coffin" Ships – Look up Sir Edward Pine Coffin, Commissary-General who between January 1846 and March 1848 directed that new built steam powered naval ships be used to distribute relief supplies on the West coasts of Ireland and Scotland, he specified those ships as they would not be dependent upon prevailing winds to successfully complete their voyages – Again hardly falls in with the line about a deliberate campaign of genocide does it?

2: "However many books our tabloid journalist has written - he remains a tabloid journalist and does not merit Keith's criterion (not mine) of a the qualified historian he was demanding from everybody else "

Ever looked up Tim Pat Coogan on Google?

"Timothy Patrick "Tim Pat" Coogan (born 22 April 1935) is an Irish historical writer, broadcaster and newspaper columnist. He served as editor of The Irish Press newspaper from 1968 to 1987."

So being perfectly logical and using your own criteria, if Sir Max Hastings cannot be described as a Historian because he was just a journalist, then neither can Tim Pat Coogan – True? Or as usual do you simply let your own bigotry take over, in order that you can just make stuff up as you go along?

By the way a historical writer is a different animal to a historian, I leave it to you to research the difference.

Now let us take a look at Sir Max Hastings:

"Sir Max Hugh Macdonald Hastings, FRSL, FRHistS (born 28 December 1945) is a British journalist, editor, historian and author."

The FRSL = Fellow of the Royal Society of Literature
The FRHistS = Fellow of the Royal Historical Society

So critically acclaimed by professional bodies in the fields of literature and history to the degree that he is welcomed into their most prestigious societies ( I would have thought that counted for something GBS was a FRSL IIRC)

Hastings in his time has supported both the Conservative Party and the Labour Party and has voted accordingly. He also is on record as having described Gordon Brown as "wholly psychologically unfit to be Prime Minister" – so no-one can fault the man's judgement or instincts .

3: As far as reading books go the work I have constantly referred to, which I have read and studied, has been the one that is generally regarded as the Definitive work on the Famine of 1845 to 1849 and that is Cecil Woodham-Smith's "The Great Hunger" and as I have previously stated on this thread she does not spare the British Government, but does give credit where it is due (Unlike yourself) and she provides no argument to suggest any deliberate campaign on the part of the British Government – no policy of Genocide.

4: As far as numbers went mg there were, and there are, records kept by both Shipping companies and port authorities of people landing, they are available on line for anyone wishing to look them up ("The Irish Times" has a particularly good one listing some 225 vessels that sailed between 1845 and 1851). It was a business mg and businesses run on paper.

You mentioned the Germans, as did I, the account you refer to, may well be correct, but it does not alter the fact discovered by Joel Mokyr during his research that more Germans died whilst on passage.

"1983: Why Ireland Starved: An Analytical and Quantitative Study of Irish Poverty, 1800-1851;

He dismisses widespread arguments that Irish poverty can be explained in terms of over-population, an evil land system or malicious exploitation by the British. Instead, he argues that the causes have to be sought in the low productivity of labour and the insufficient formation of physical capital -- results of the peculiar political and social structure of Ireland, continuous conflicts between landlords and tenants, and the rigidity of Irish economic institutions.

Irish history is often heavily coloured by political convictions: Mokyr brings to this controversial field not only wide research experience but also impartiality and scientific objectivity. The book is primarily aimed at numerate economic historians, historical demographers, economists specializing in agricultural economics and economic development and specialists in Irish and British nineteenth-century history."


Odd isn't it that during this same period people were flocking to America from all over Europe for exactly the same reasons that the Irish were emigrating – no accusations of genocide there though, strange really as in most of those countries their Governments did not lift a finger to help those fleeing.

On the mainland of the United Kingdom the West Coast of Scotland and the Highlands were particularly badly hit – yet the Scots do not accuse the British Government of any act of genocide.

In the closing years of the 17th century and the early years of the 18th century Scotland lost approximately 20% of its population to famine. It was one of the driving arguments for the Act of Union in 1707.

In the aftermath of the 45 Rebellion clearances that had started in the 17th century were accelerated, but the big difference here was that although land-owners wanted their former clansmen off the land they wanted them housed in new towns and villages that they had built (Helmsdale in Sutherland is one example of such a town) to work in cottage industries, fishing, kelping and in mines. Those dispossessed on the other had wanted to move further afield and this was the subject and inspiration of Burn's poem "Address of Beelzebub" written in 1786 and this is the foreword and introduction to it:

"To the Right Honourable the Earl of Breadalbane, President of the Right Honourable and Honourable the Highland Society, which met on the 23rd of May last at the Shakespeare, Covent Garden, to concert ways and means to frustrate the designs of five hundred Highlanders, who, as the Society were informed by Mr. M'Kenzie of Applecross, were so audacious as to attempt an escape from their lawful lords and masters whose property they were, by emigrating from the lands of Mr. Macdonald of Glengary to the wilds of Canada, in search of that fantastic thing-Liberty."

The Scottish Famines of 1690s and 1780 caused great loss of life, the Highland famine of 1846 to 1852 resulted in fewer deaths but caused over 1.7 million people to leave Scotland.

" Famine was a real prospect throughout the period, and certainly it was one of severe malnutrition, serious disease, crippling financial hardship and traumatic disruption to essentially agrarian communities. The causes of the crisis were similar to those of the Great Irish Famine and both famines were part of the wider food crisis facing Northern Europe caused by potato blight during the mid-1840s." - General summation given in Wiki, Highland Potato Famine

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 05:48 PM

You were wrong to post as if there was one accepted view.
Your view is actually a minority view.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 04:56 PM

Famine deaths

There is no evading the scale of the human catastrophe, but was anyone to blame?
No Keith - it was the will of God - Trevelyan said so
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 04:51 PM

There is no evading the scale of the human catastrophe, but was anyone to blame?
There is no consensus, and you are wrong to claim otherwise.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 04:47 PM

"were caused by cholera and typhus"
Brought on by malnutrition, no access to water, lack of medical attention and exposure to the elements
What's your point?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 04:09 PM

Ah, PeeDee- more utter BS. Tell us: Have you ever read Coogan, Woodham-Smith Or Kinealy?

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: pdq
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 03:49 PM

The vast majority of deaths in Ireland between 1845 and 1851 were caused by cholera and typhus, along with the usual causes: accidents and old age.

If someone really wants to know what causes cholera and typhus, they can do some research. Suffice it to say, overpopulation led to inadequate sanitation which led to disease.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 03:41 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 03:33 PM

That was one year - the famine lasted for 5
Those who were already ill whe they embarked had been left with no choice - the warehouses and workhouses had been closed - armed soldiers were set to guard over-full warehouses - there were reports of them firing on 'rioters' ie starving peasants demanding food.
The sick emigrants were left two alternatives - to die in the lanes or on board ship.
Maybe it wasn't 'human engineering' - maybe it was as Kinealy and Neilson said, it was callous indifference
Not convinced either way - but whatever - there's no evading the responsibility unless you ignore the fats and hide behind 'historians'
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 03:02 PM

125,000 died on the voyage in one year alone 1847
Jim Carroll

how depressing... and this number is what some have included in the "but this number of people emmigrated" and therefore their demise somehow is no longer relevant to the discussion.

I'm sure that will draw some flack...

With the exception of the Williams side of my family, the rest came over fairly recently and without the heartbreak associated with other forced emmigrations.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 02:28 PM

125,000 died on the voyage in one year alone 1847
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 01:09 PM

"I really don't think they have a good idea of the numbers who died and emigrated"
I couldn't find an overall figure - just the specific ones from Coleman's book - which seems to indicate that the figures were massive
- see above (21 Mar 14 - 01:50 PM)
Wouldn't mattre to this pair of clowns anyway - they all died for a good cause - the Empire
More historians Keith - doesn't it tempt you to go and read one - eejit -either of you?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 01:06 PM

Max Hasting, "tabloid journalist" and,
, spending a year (1967–68) as a Fellow of the World Press Institute, following which he published his first book, America, 1968: The Fire This Time, an account of the US in its tumultuous election year. He became a foreign correspondent and reported from more than sixty countries and eleven wars for BBC TV's 24 hours current affairs programme and for the Evening Standard in London. Hastings was the first journalist to enter the liberated Port Stanley during the 1982 Falklands War. After ten years as editor and then editor-in-chief of The Daily Telegraph, he returned to the Evening Standard as editor in 1996 until his retirement in 2002.[2] He received a knighthood in 2002. He was elected a member of the political dining society known as The Other Club in 1993.[3]
He has presented historical documentaries for the BBC and is the author of many books, including Bomber Command which earned the Somerset Maugham Award for non-fiction in 1980. Both Overlord and The Battle for the Falklands won the Yorkshire Post Book of the Year prize. He was named Journalist of the Year and Reporter of the Year at the 1982 British Press Awards, and Editor of the Year in 1988. In 2010 he received the Royal United Services Institute's Westminster Medal for his "lifelong contribution to military literature", and the same year the Edgar Wallace Award from the London Press Club.[2]
In 2012 he was awarded the US$100,000 Pritzker Military Library Literature Award, a lifetime achievement award for military writing, which includes an honorarium, citation and medallion, sponsored by the Chicago-based Tawani Foundation.[4]
Hastings is a Fellow of the Royal Society of Literature, and the Royal Historical Society. He was President of the Campaign to Protect Rural England from 2002–2007.
In his 2007 book Nemesis: The Battle for Japan, 1944–45 (also known as Retribution in the United States), the chapter on Australia's role in the last year of the Pacific War was criticised by the chief of the Returned and Services League of Australia and one of the historians at the Australian War Memorial for allegedly exaggerating discontent in the Australian Army during this period.[5] Dan van der Vat in The Guardian called it "even-handed", "refreshing" and "sensitive", and praised the language used.[6] The Spectator called it "brilliant" and praised his telling of the human side of the story.[7]

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 12:59 PM

So - someone Didn't like Coogan's book - so what

Errr, not just someone, but Professor Liam Kennedy

BSc, MSc (NUI), PhD (York), FRHistS
Professor Emeritus of Economic & Social History
E-mail: [e-mail]
Liam Kennedy was born in rural Tipperary under the star sign of Leo (or was it Taurus?), well before the era of Radio Telefis Eireann and the Friesian cow. His undergraduate degree was in food science but he experienced a later Pauline conversion to history. His formative intellectual influences included Raymond Crotty (Irish agricultural production), Sir John Hicks (A theory of economic history), Edna O'Brien (The country girls) and the Tipperary Star. In 2005 he held a visiting professorship at the University of Toronto and is a Fellow of the Royal Society of Arts. Liam Kennedy retired from the academic staff in September 2011, but remains an active member of the Queen's History community.
Research Interests

Themes of rural social change dominated his earlier research interests, and still retain an emotional charge. Increasingly, however, his interests have shifted towards the study of long-term social change in Ireland, extending from the 17th to the 20th century. Historical studies of wages, prices and living standards, as well as secular change in the political and religious demography of Ireland have come to the fore. Other interests include Belfast in 1911, and bastardy and the Irish. In his darker moments he contests the notion of the MOPE syndrome: that in the comparative historical stakes the Irish were the most oppressed people ever.
Select Publications

Books:
(With Peter Solar), Irish Agriculture: A Price History from the mid-18th century to the eve of the First World War, 1755–1913 (Dublin: Royal Irish Academy, 2007).
(Ed., with R.J. Morris), Scotland and Ireland: order and disorder, 1600–2000 (Edinburgh: John Donald, 2005).
(With L.A. Clarkson et al), Mapping the Great Irish Famine (Dublin: Four Courts Press, 1999).
(Ed., with Isabelle Devos), Marriage and the rural economy: western Europe since 1400 (Brussels, 1999).
Colonialism, religion and nationalism in Ireland (Belfast: Institute of Irish Studies, 1996).

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: mg
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 12:58 PM

I really don't think they have a good idea of the numbers who died and emigrated...especially to England...are there ships manifests of who went to Liverpool from Ireland? Would a captain of a decrepit timber ship bother to take laborious records of his starving passengers?

As for the Germans, a witness to one unloading said the Germans came out singing and the Irish came out crawling.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 12:23 PM

So - someone Didn't like Coogan's book - so what - I read it and gave my opinion keep up
However many books our tabloid journalist has written - he remains a tabloid journalist and does not merit Keith's criterion (not mine) of a the qualified historian he was demanding from everybody else - but there you go - that's Keith for you.
As you have made no detailed criticism of Coogan's book you appear not to have read it - but there again, you seldom give detailed quotes on anything - just cut-'n-paste swoops and divine inspiration presumably - just like Keith.
If I'm wrong, I'm wrong on the basis of having read something and got it wrong - I don't slavishly follow any agenda - I'm not a flag-wagger - unlike you pair of morons, I'm not a God Save England, Ireland or wherever
I certainly don't describe people as whining Irish - like you pair of prats
As I said to your friend - go read a book and stop relying on the good o''three Bs - bullshit, bullying and bluster - you don't impress
Happy Christmas

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: sciencegeek
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 12:11 PM

The term "coffin ship" was in use long before 1847 and had nothing whatsoever to do with "deplorable conditions that resulted in high mortality" - That the term was hijacked does not surprise me in the least - but at least have the honesty to recognise it for what it is."

So now I'm the dishonest one... back to poounding my head against the wall...

SO - If it's qualifiers that you need... as a result of the high mortality aboard many of the ships used to transport Irish refugees during the potato famine, the term coffins ships was applied to those ships. As opposed to your insistence that it could only refer to overloaded and over insured ships.   

"Erie Canal Greg F? The topic was introduced by sciencegeek who mentioned it's construction NOT it's future modifications – I merely pointed out to him who actually was involved in its original construction."   

Here is my actual statement: And we live within 50 miles of the Erie Canal... renowned for the large Irish workforce involved in its construction. Pardon me for leaving out the fact that the Erie Canal is now part of the NYS Barge Canal System and as you drive along the NYS Thruway you will see preserved remanants of the original canal as well as sections of the current day canal.

The dang thing has been built & rebuilt over the years since 1825... you just assumed that I could only mean the original construction... just as you have assumed that HER is a HIM. Sorry - no Y chromosome in this geek.

Quibbling with a post on this thread does not change historical facts, it only represents a desperate need to preserve one's fixed opinions.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 11:54 AM

Tim Pat Coogan's Book that Christmas & Co are hailing as being the new bible did not stand up all that well to critical review:

"I can't think of a single historian who has researched the Famine in depth – and Tim Pat has not researched it in depth. One of the striking things about this book is the narrowness of the evidential sources he uses and indeed they're presented so badly. Titles are misquoted. You might even say the title of his own book, The Plot, is itself misleading, and indeed the subtitle, England's Role in Ireland's Greatest Tragedy. Well it was Britain, not the United Kingdom. That's an old nationalist trope: England the neverending source of Ireland's ills. I find it terribly difficult, and I'm not being unkind, to find any redeeming feature in this book. That's its only point of originality. It's outdated, outmoded, and could I say, I was pleased to see that at moments you did engage with some modern scholarship, like Joel Mokyr, the great Dutch historian … of the Great Famine. I don't think you understood what he was saying. You have a phrase at one point – excess mortality – numbers per cent per thousand – that phrase means nothing. You clearly didn't understand what he was saying. And when you talk about coffin ships, one of the searing images of the Famine – appalling – and of course I accept that the Great Famine was a vast catastrophe, that's the title of one of my publications on this, but even when talking about coffin ships, surely you need to set that in context. The Grosse Isle experience was appalling, I've been to Grosse Isle, I've seen those graves, but that was not typical of transatlantic shipping during the Famine. If you had read Joel Mokyr and others, as your references seem to suggest, you would see quite clearly that Mokyr says that that first year of shipping particularly to the mouth of Saint Lawrence was untypical and that mortality on ships across the Atlantic was less than 5 per cent. Less actually than German emigrants migrating to North America in the same time period. So either you're guilty of incredibly selective reading or, I just wonder, have you lost the plot? Did you really understand what you were reading at times? - Professor Liam Kennedy

Tim Pat does admit that he targets what he calls "academic historians", I suppose he means those that have studied history and who have had to prove their ability to do so. He certainly has not.

So Tim Pat has written 6 books has he? Well if that is your metric Max Hastings has written 26 - only one subject you say? Work it out for yourself:

America, 1968: The Fire This Time (Gollancz, 1969) ISBN 0-575-00234-4
Ulster 1969

The Fight for Civil Rights in Northern Ireland (Gollancz, 1970) ISBN 0-575-00482-7

Montrose: The King's Champion (Gollancz, 1977) ISBN 0-575-02226-4

Bomber Command (Michael Joseph, 1979) ISBN 0-7181-1603-8

Battle of Britain by Len Deighton, Max Hastings (Jonathan Cape, 1980) ISBN 0-224-01826-4

Yoni — Hero of Entebbe: Life of Yonathan Netanyahu (Weidenfeld & Nicolson, 1980) ISBN 0-297-77565-0

Das Reich: Resistance and the March of the Second SS Panzer Division Through France, June 1944 (Michael Joseph, 1981) ISBN 0-7181-2074-4

Das Reich: March of the Second SS Panzer Division Through France (Henry Holt & Co, 1982) ISBN 0-03-057059-X

The Battle for the Falklands by Max Hastings, Simon Jenkins (W W Norton, 1983) ISBN 0-393-01761-3, (Michael Joseph, 1983) ISBN 0-7181-2228-3

Overlord: D-Day and the Battle for Normandy (Simon & Schuster, 1984) ISBN 0-671-46029-3

The Oxford Book of Military Anecdotes (ed.) (Oxford University Press, 1985) ISBN 0-19-214107-4

Victory in Europe (Weidenfeld & Nicolson, 1985) ISBN 0-297-78650-4

The Korean War (Michael Joseph, 1987) ISBN 0-7181-2068-X, (Simon & Schuster, 1987) ISBN 0-671-52823-8

Outside Days (Michael Joseph, 1989) ISBN 0-7181-3330-7

Victory in Europe: D-Day to V-E Day (Little Brown & C, 1992) ISBN 0-316-81334-6

Scattered Shots (Macmillan, 1999) ISBN 0-333-77103-6

Going to the Wars (Macmillan, 2000) ISBN 0-333-77104-4

Editor: A Memoir (Macmillan, 2002) ISBN 0-333-90837-6

Armageddon: The Battle for Germany 1944–45 (Macmillan, 2004) ISBN 0-333-90836-8

Warriors: Exceptional Tales from the Battlefield (HarperPress [UK], 2005) ISBN 978-0-00-719756-9

Country Fair (HarperCollins, October 2005) ISBN 0-00-719886-8.

Nemesis: The Battle for Japan, 1944–45 (HarperPress [UK], October 2007) ISBN 0-00-721982-2 (re-titled Retribution: The Battle for Japan, 1944–45 for US release Knopf ISBN 978-0-307-26351-3)

Finest Years: Churchill as Warlord, 1940–45. London, HarperPress, 2009. ISBN 978-0-00-726367-7 (re-titled Winston's War: Churchill, 1940–1945 for US release by Knopf, 2010, ISBN 978-0-307-26839-6)

Did You Really Shoot the Television?: A Family Fable. London, HarperPress, 2010. ISBN 978-0-00-727171-9

All Hell Let Loose: The World At War, 1939–1945. London, HarperPress, 29 September 2011. ISBN 978-0-00-733809-2 (re-titled Inferno: The World At War, 1939–1945 for US release by Knopf, 1 November 2011, ISBN 978-0-307-27359-8. 729 pp)

Catastrophe 1914: Europe Goes to War. London, Knopf Press, Release Date 24 September 2013, ISBN 978-0307597052, 640 pp.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 11:40 AM

So there we have it
First class transportation
No enforced Emigratuin
No God's will
No closure of food stores and workhouses
No laissez-fairer policy
No Evictions
No Land War
No partition
No sectarian strife
No near century of National conflict
And above all - no evidence - just denial
Rule Britannia
Utter ethnic cleansing delial without a shred of evidence to back ity up - have you met Keth - let me introduce you,you should get on - he's a nationalist nutter as well
Yours
Christmas
PS - now new nickname so - no imagination

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 11:17 AM

Lame, T-Bird- you were trying to imply that no Famine-period Irish emigrants were involved working on the Erie Canal. And you were wrong.

Nice tap-dancing, tho.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Teribus
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 11:03 AM

"And I have no idea where you got your fairy tale about "coffin ships", but the name came from the deplorable conditions that resulted in high mortality" - sciencegeek - 19 Mar 14 - 01:05 PM

The term "coffin ship" was in use long before 1847 and had nothing whatsoever to do with "deplorable conditions that resulted in high mortality" - That the term was hijacked does not surprise me in the least - but at least have the honesty to recognise it for what it is.

In your first example the "Virginius" why did you omit to mention that among those who died on the voyage were the vessel's Master, First and Second Mates and damn near the entire crew, (I take it they must have been sharing the same deplorable conditions), and the loss of the bulk of the ship's crew must have affected her performance under sail with only one officer, a couple of men and one boy left to handle her – a bit selective of you isn't it sciencegeek (Go back and read that historical check list for the US's legal standard for "historians" –you will find out that you do not match up)

Now then Christmas:   
"You have had the facts on immigration" – No idea how many people entered Ireland during the famine years as immigrants Christmas – perhaps all these evil Brits wishing to cash in on this economic and political bonanza you keep prattling on about, but seem unable to provide any evidence of ever having occurred. We do however know the numbers of Irishmen, women and children who emigrated from Ireland and entered mainland Britain, Canada and the United States of America.

"You have had the facts on Britain's solution" - Yes repeal the laws that kept the price of crops artificially high and allow the cheap import of cereals, setting up of a means of distributing relief. When that failed due to the scale of the problem they put in place measures to move people off the land whether to towns and cities in Ireland, or on mainland Britain, or by emigration to Canada or the United States of America. With the exception of Belfast, Ireland generally had never undergone either an agrarian revolution or an industrial revolution as mainland Britain had. Therefore work opportunities in the major centres of population in Ireland, apart from Belfast, were minimal, so most left Ireland for mainland Britain. The measures obviously worked because subsequent to the famine of 1845 to 1851 while rare periodic periods occurred in which there were food shortages, there was never another famine in Ireland (Or Scotland for that matter). Doesn't alter the fact that during the period in question Britain paid for 750,000 people working on relief projects and fed 3 million - weird sort of "genocide" don't you think?

"You have had the facts on the conditions on the coffin ships" - Yes standard practice at the time for transporting people on ships that were essentially cargo vessels. Oh and for all your heart rending examples, designed and repeated time and time again to appeal to the furthering of this emotive claptrap and myth the following can be seen - "that first year of shipping (1847) particularly to the mouth of Saint Lawrence was untypical and that mortality on ships across the Atlantic was less than 5 per cent. Less actually than German emigrants migrating to North America in the same time period." – Professor Liam Kennedy of Queens College quoting Professor Joel Mokyr Were those Germans all part of the same diabolical British plot then Christmas?? Read some accounts and they speak of how healthy and happy the German emigrants were, but the figures tell a different story according to Joel Mokyr. Your Mr Laxton, gave the figure that five thousand trips were made across the Atlantic with Irish emigrants during the six years of the Famine Emigration And your Mr. Terry Coleman mentions that the total number of emigrant ships that were lost making the trans-Atlantic crossing amounted to 59 – So just over 1% of the ships foundered – Take a look at the statistics for Cape Horn they make that 1% loss rate look good going for the vessels of the period and the times. The purpose built ships for the passage of emigrants (Such as the "City of Adelaide" that carried emigrants to Australia) generally post date the period under discussion.

"You have had a summing up of post famine history" - Your "victims version" fueled by illogical, fictionalized, emotive claptrap, or fact? In 1879 the crop failed in Ireland, this caused hunger and there were food shortages, but not the death toll – why? Because of changes in the technology of food production, primarily enabled by the disappearance of the tiny subdivided plots of land. The disappearance of the cotter tenant ("i.e. those who left the land during the famine we are discussing), in short the land could be farmed a damn sited more efficiently. Post famine history also tells us that post 1840s in Ireland a railroad system was built that allowed food to be transported to the west of Ireland in days rather than months. The phenomenon of those emigrating post 1845-1851 famine came about simply by those people exercising their own free will or as a result of panic as was seen in 1879 – It most certainly did not come about by any deliberate plan instigated by any British Government as you contend.

One of your post famine songs about emigration puts it beautifully - written by Liam Reilly IIRC - Flight of Earls

It's not murder fear or famine
that makes us leave this time
We're not going to join McAlpine's Fusiliers
We've got brains and we've vision
We've got education too
And we just can't throw away these precious years"

The song was written about the state of affairs in Ireland in 1981/82 and the reason they left was because there was no work for them to do pure and simple - so in an Ireland that had been completely independent for 60 years it was still Britain's fault? Just how pathetic do you wish to paint yourselves?

Erie Canal Greg F? The topic was introduced by sciencegeek who mentioned it's construction NOT it's future modifications – I merely pointed out to him who actually was involved in its original construction.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 09:26 AM

Should we take that as a no Greg.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 09:22 AM

Is he qualified at all Greg? Is he a member of any learned societies?

Fuckwit.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 05:53 AM

We often say that it takes two to have an argument.
Here we have an exception to the rule.

I have not argued against anything you have said.

You have made general attacks on me, and argued against things I have never said, without once challenging one single thing that I have said!

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 04:51 AM

BUT I AM NOT ARGUING!!!.
I merely state facts that you do not and can not deny.

You posted your version of events, at very great length, as if it was the only one.
I merely pointed out that it was not.

Someone then posted a piece by Kinealy, who is in a position to know, where she states that historians who support your view are in a minority and long have been.

That is my whole case and you can not deny any of it.
No argument at all.

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 04:16 AM

I have no intention of re-entering an argument with an extreme nationalist who distorts history and historians to make his nationalist case
You cannot possibly know what historians say without having read what they have written - stop inventing things you have admitted you know nothing about - take your extremist propaganda somewhere else and stop fouling up wht should be interesting and informative discussions
You've blown it with your manipulative stupidity
Stop buggering up these thread with your extremism and ignorance
Piss off
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 04:16 AM

I have no intention of re-entering an argument with an extreme nationalist who distorts history and historians to make his nationalist case
You cannot possibly know what historians say without having read what they have written - stop inventing things you have admitted you know nothing about - take your extremist propaganda somewhere else and stop fouling up wht should be interesting and informative discussions
You've blown it with your manipulative stupidity
Stop buggering up these thread with your extremism and ignorance
Piss off
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: BS: Irish Potato Blight- Cause found
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 24 Mar 14 - 03:42 AM

Famine History books that do not blame Britain never become best sellers, even though they may be acclaimed among historians.
Being a best selling historian is not equivalent to being a good one.

Historians who blame Britain are a minority even if they are best sellers, and those who claim it was genocide are a minority of one.