Greensleeves History of

Subject: RE: Greensleeves History of
From: JMike
Date: 24 Nov 97 - 05:32 PM

Cutting's arrangement is in a lot of classical guitar collections, including at least one of Frederick Noad's. (Called "The Renaissance Guitar"). Don't know if it is in print, but it contains some very good arrangements for those looking for some "showoff" guitar pieces.

Odd to think of a song being so old that a "jazzed up" version of it is dated (I think) 1585.

Subject: RE: Greensleeves History of
From: Frank Phillips
Date: 22 Nov 97 - 07:50 PM

Incidentally, there is an arrangement by Liona Boyd that "combines the traditional themes with an arrangement for lute by Francis Cutting". The sheet music is on page 8 of the book "Miniatures for Guitar" (to accompany the CD of the same name). I'm not finding it particularly easy to learn but it sure sounds nice when Liona plays it.

Frank

Subject: RE: Greensleeves History of
From:
Date: 22 Nov 97 - 04:46 PM

In the grass, that is.

Subject: RE: Greensleeves History of
From:
Date: 22 Nov 97 - 04:11 PM

Let us note that since 'green gown' comes from the missionary method, it is pretty obvious where 'green sleeves' comes from.

Subject: RE: Greensleeves History of
From: JMike
Date: 19 Nov 97 - 10:26 PM

This makes the third or fourth thread recently where Flanders and Swann have come up. (The second or third time I've done it.) There is a wonderful monologue by Michael Flanders on the "At the Drop of a Hat" CD giving a very tongue-in-cheek history of how the "Greensleeves" came to be written (as the first act finale of a musical written by Kyd and Skelton!!!!)

Highly recommended for those who like literate humor.

Subject: RE: Greensleeves History of
From: dulcimer
Date: 19 Nov 97 - 09:56 PM

Thanks Bruce for keeping this thread going. The words are interesting and the discussion was great.

Subject: RE: Greensleeves History of
From:
Date: 19 Nov 97 - 07:58 PM

Nonetheless, it is possible that Henry VIII wrote it and it was printed after his death. (Most of Shakespeare was printed after he died) It is often stated that Henry VIII was a better than average musician, and if Frederick the Great could write pieces why couldn't he? Before he became a old grouch with the clap Henry was every bit a Renaissance Man.

Subject: RE: Greensleeves History of
From: Jerry Friedman
Date: 19 Nov 97 - 07:40 PM

There may be a legitimate point to make about the similarity of prostitutes to mistresses, courtesans, and even fine ladies of society. Not all prostitutes walk the streets, and not all court life was romantic. However, calling Lady Greensleeves a prostitute is obviously wrong. If that's what she were, the guy would have nothing to complain about (except exorbitant fees).

Subject: RE: Greensleeves History of
From: Nonie Rider
Date: 19 Nov 97 - 01:37 PM

"Prostitute" does seem a little harsh--and misses the whole cultural range of mistresses, courtesans, and fine ladies of society. What blindness!

I will admit, though, that a full enumeration of gifts does sound pretty icky. Especially since either he was previously getting value for money, as it were, or he shoulda stopped giving sooner.

(And having once been involved with someone who insisted on flooding me with constant expensive gifts, over my serious protests, I'm not thrilled with how this song would sound if she WASN'T a lady of leisure either.)

But public laments to one's mistress do always make me grin; they remind me of the lovely scene in the Dunnettesque HEAVEN TREE by Edith Pargeter (Ellis Peters), where a group of gloriously reckless university students keeps interrupting a pompous wooer's paid musicians, filling in the second half of each pleading verse with such unhelpful lyrics as "While my hired minstrels dun you/For love at second-hand!"

--Nonie

Subject: RE: Greensleeves History of
From: Bruce O.
Date: 19 Nov 97 - 01:29 PM

Sorry, I was getting rather bleary-eyed when I typed this up last night. (This song does that to me.) Some corrections to the text in verse:

7-pincase
9-sleeues
9-grossie is the reading, but grassie is probably meant
12-thou not thous

Unfortunately these corrections don't improve the song very much.

Subject: RE: Greensleeves History of
From: Bo
Date: 19 Nov 97 - 11:41 AM

I once had a huge arguement with a lazy English teacher in a local high school who taught Greensleeves simply as "A love song to a prostitute".

Gone was all the romance of a court life, any sense of history and patronage to be replaced by a taudry view of our modern streets.

bo

I enjoyed the thread.

Subject: RE: Greensleeves History of
From: Alice
Date: 19 Nov 97 - 10:49 AM

Bruce, loved your commentary. Hilarious. Alice in Montana

Subject: RE: Greensleeves History of
From: Jon W.
Date: 19 Nov 97 - 10:38 AM

Do I detect a spiritual connection here with the Beatles' "Can't Buy Me Love?"

Bruce, don't be so hard on the song. The tune is wonderful as attested to by its longevity and wide dispersal. And the words are no worse than the average blues song - I like to refer to it as "very early English blues." Besides, there are worse words to sing to the tune - "I'll build you a home in the Meadow" from the Hollywood musical "How the West was Won" comes to mind (I believe Debbie Reynolds sang it). But feel free to disagree.

Jon W.

Subject: Lyr Add: GREENSLEEVES
From: Bruce O.
Date: 19 Nov 97 - 12:04 AM

Well here it is. My fame is now assured. I will be forever know as the one that contributed the worst song to the DT. I forgot how to indent in HTML. Indent even numbered lines 2 letter spaces and the chorus 4.

A new Courtly Sonet, of the Lady Green
sleeues. To the new tune of Greensleeues.

Greensleeues was all my ioy,
Greensleeues was my delight:
Greenslues was my heart of gold,
And who but Ladie Greensleeues.

Alas my loue, ye do me wrong,
to cast me off discurteously:
And I haue loued you so long,
Delighting in your companie.
Greensleeues was all my ioy,
Greensleeues was my delight:
Greensleeues was my heart of gold,
And who but Ladie Greensleeues.

I haue been readie at our hand,
to grant what euer you wold crave.
I haue both waged life and land.
your loue and good will for to haue.
Greensleeues was all my ioy, &c.

I bought thee kerchers to thy head,
that were wrought fine and gallantly:
I kept thee both a boord and bed, [wow! lewd!]
Which cost my purse wel fauouredly,
Greensleeues was al my ioie, &c.

I bought thee peticotes of the best,
the cloth so fine as fine might be:
I gaue thee jewels for thy chest,
and all this cost I spent on thee.
Greensleeues was all my ioie, &c.

Thy smock of silk, both faire and white,
with gold embrodered gorgeously:
Thy peticote of Sendall right:
and thus I bought thee gladly.
Greensleeues was all my ioie, &c.

Thy girdle of gold so red,
with pearle bedecked sumptuously:
The like no other lasses had,
and yet thou wouldst not loue me,
Greensleeues was all my ioy, &c.

Thy purse and eke thy gay guilt kniues,
thy pincaase gallant to thy eie:
No better wore the Burgesse wiues,
and yet thou wouldst not loue me.
Greensleeues was all my ioy, &c.

Thy crimson stockings all of silk,
with golde all wrought aboue the knee,
Thy pumps as white as was the milk,
and yet thou wouldst not loue me.
Greensleeues was all my ioy, &c.

Thy gown was of the grossie green,
thy sleuees of Satten hanging by:
Which made thee be our haruest Queen,
and yet thou wouldst not loue me.
Greensleeues was all my ioy, &c.

Thy garters fringed with the golde,
And siluer aglets hanging by,
Which made thee blithe for to beholde,
And yet thou wouldst not loue me.
Greensleeues was all my ioy, &c.

My gayest gelding I thee gaue,
To ride where euer liked thee,
No Ladie euer was so braue,
And yet thou wouldst not loue me.
Greensleeues was all my ioy, &c.

My men were clothed all in green,
And they did euer wait on thee:
Al this was gallant to be seen,
and yet thous wouldst not loue me.
Greensleeues was all my ioy, &c.

They wet thee vp, they took thee downe,
they serued thee with humilitie,
Thy foote might not once touch the ground,
and yet thou wouldst not loue me.
Greensleeues was all my ioy, &c.

For euerie morning when thou rose,
I sent thee dainties orderly:
To cheare thy stomack from all woes,
and yet thou wouldst not loue me.
Greensleeues was all my ioy, &c.

Thou couldst desire no earthly thing. [,]
But stil thou hadst it readily:
Thy musicke still to play and sing,
And yet thou wouldst not loue me.
Greensleeues was all my ioy, &c.

And who did pay for all this geare,
that thou didst spend when pleased thee?
Euen I that am rejected here,
and thou disdainst to loue me.
Greensleeues was all my ioy, &c.

Wel, I wil pray to God on hie,
that thou my constancie maist see:
And that yet once before I die,
thou wilt vouchsafe to loue me.
Greensleeues was all my ioy, &c.

Greensleeues now farewell adue, [finally, he's run out
God I Pray to prosper thee: [of things to complaint
For I am still thy louer true, [about. At this point we
come once againe and loue me. [can only congratulate her for
Greensleeues was all my ioy, &c. [dumping such a whiner.]
Finis

Subject: RE: Greensleeves History of
From: Bruce O.
Date: 19 Nov 97 - 12:03 AM

The tune was continuously popular. The song was rediscovered about 1800. See C. M. Simpson's 'The British Broadside Ballad and Its Music' for the many songs and ballads of the 17th century that used the tune.

Subject: RE: Greensleeves History of
From: Jerry Friedman
Date: 18 Nov 97 - 10:51 PM

Also, was the tune lost, or just the words? The tune (as I'm sure you don't need me to tell you, Bruce) was used in John Gay's "Beggar's Opera" (1727), which I doubt is what you meant by "almost 1800".

Subject: RE: Greensleeves History of
From: Jerry Friedman
Date: 18 Nov 97 - 10:41 PM

Won't your public library even order books for you on interlibrary loan? I sure use that feature here in Espanola, N. M. (pop < 10,000).

Subject: RE: Greensleeves History of
From: dulcimer
Date: 18 Nov 97 - 09:46 PM

Bruce O.--You've peaked my curiousity about the missing verses. I live in a town with a poor public library for getting books, and bookstores not much better. Is there any site on the web that might have these missing "terrible" lyrics?

Subject: RE: Greensleeves History of
From: Bruce O.
Date: 18 Nov 97 - 08:20 PM

dulcimer, get the book I mentioned. I don't want to type up a long song I consider a terrible one. I can give you all six of the tune versions in C. M. Simpson's 'The British Broadside Ballad and Its Music', 1966, in ABC if you want them. That I've already done.

Subject: RE: Greensleeves History of
From: ryanc999
Date: 18 Nov 97 - 06:20 PM

Yes Bert This is fun.

Subject: RE: Greensleeves History of
From: ryanc999
Date: 18 Nov 97 - 06:18 PM

thanks for all the responses. The lyric I found was enough for me. I don't think I could handle twice the amount. Three or four verses really do it.

Subject: RE: Greensleeves History of
From: dulcimer
Date: 18 Nov 97 - 05:53 PM

Are we going to get the other verses Bruce O.?

Subject: RE: Greensleeves History of
From: Bruce O.
Date: 18 Nov 97 - 04:42 PM

The song was entered as a broadside ballad in the Stationers' Register as "A newe northern Dittye of ye Ladye Greene Sleves" on Sept. 3, 1580. Now earlier mention of "Greensleeves" has ever been found. Henry VIII had been dead over 25 years by this this date.

Subject: RE: Greensleeves History of
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 18 Nov 97 - 03:40 PM

The song has nothing to do with Christmas; the tune was been used for What Child is This? (as well as literally hundreds of other songs, sacred and profane). Most older (18th and 19th century references which give "Which Nobody Can Deny" as the air to a song are referring to the tune of Greensleeves.

Subject: RE: Greensleeves History of
From: Bert
Date: 18 Nov 97 - 03:35 PM

It is often attributed to Henry the Eighth. But that is most likely an urban legend.

This folklore is fun stuff isn't it?

Bert.

Subject: RE: Greensleeves History of
From: Bruce O.
Date: 18 Nov 97 - 02:12 PM

P.S. The version in DT only has half of the verses.

Subject: RE: Greensleeves History of
From: Bruce O.
Date: 18 Nov 97 - 01:52 PM

I shouldn't have said 'earliest text', but 'only text'. I have never seen a traditional text of the song, and the song has nothing to do with Christmass. The tune has been collected traditionally. Somewhat surprisingly the song was considered to be a lost one from about 1625 to nearly 1800, when the text in 'A Handfull of Pleasant Delights' was rediscovered.

Subject: RE: Greensleeves History of
From: Bruce O.
Date: 18 Nov 97 - 01:43 PM

No. For earliest text and notes see H. E. Rollins' edition of 'A Handfull of Pleasant Delights'. This was a Dover reprint, but I don't know if it's still available. It is a forsaken lovers complaint to the lady that forsook him, and it gets pretty dreary if you go much beyond the 3 verses usually printed.

Subject: Greensleeves History of
From:
Date: 18 Nov 97 - 01:30 PM

I know that Greensleeves was a 16th century courting song, but does it allude to any historical figures?