BS: I.R.A. Decommissioning

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decissioning
From: Den
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 01:54 PM

Actually the protestant minister was Former Methodist President Rev Harold Good. I apologise to Mr. Good for inadvertantly changing his denomination.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decissioning
From: GUEST,clogger
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 01:11 PM

Only a lunatic could not be glad about the decommisioning by IRA
WELL DONE....... Now the Loyalists have two choices
1    Decommision their own weapons
2    Complain that it is all unfair ..... and loose all credibility

How long has this been going on for?.... and why?
Heres hoping

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decissioning
From: Den
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 12:55 PM

Graham, one of the witnesses was a Catholic priest, the other a Church of Ireland (protestant) minister. The protestant minister has already been dubbed a traitor by Paisley in an interview yesterday.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decissioning
From: GUEST,Divis Sweeney
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 10:23 AM

Dear Graham
The reason there was no photographic evidence was due to the remark by the D.U.P.'s Sammy Wilson, who said last December it would look great on their Christmas card. Also little Jeffery Donaldson said last December he would witness the surrender if no required. Remarks like that don't help. Hope this gives you some understanding. It boils down to the fact they don't want catholic backsides in seats of government, simple as that.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decissioning
From: Grab
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 09:02 AM

Jimmy C, anyone thinking straight should be equally critical of the IRA protecting McCartney's killer as they are of Unionist riots and petrol-bombing police. I don't believe Catholic areas are at particular risk though. That would only be the case if Protestant gang members were avoiding attacking Catholics because they were frightened of being shot. Besides which, Protestant gang members are currently busy enough fighting each other and the police...

Flamenco ted, any views in particular that Mudcat exists to reinforce?

Greg, De Chastelain said that he personally handled and inspected every weapon, every piece of ordnance that was decommissioned. Granted he can't know that this was everything, but it was apparently in line with estimates of what they had. Maybe I'm being gullible, but it sounds legit to me, and very good news. It's just a shame the IRA didn't allow photographic evidence, because that's allowed Unionists a loophole to allege that it wasn't done correctly. Although you can only claim that if you're prepared to call De Chastelain and two priests liars, and I'll be interested to see if Paisley will stick his neck out that far.

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decissioning
From: Pied Piper
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 08:47 AM

This is good news; next desegregate the schools.

PP

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decissioning
From: GUEST,Divis Sweeney
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 06:34 AM

The man charged with the bombing of the electrical power transmitters was a close friend of Ian Paisley. He later admitted on television that Ian Paisley knew of the plot and this mans involvement from the planning stages, he admitted it was to blame the IRA. Referrance, Peter Taylors television series LOYALISTS. Ian Paisley held leadership rank in three paramilitary groupings. He has been photographed in badged berets of groups whose members have been charged with the murder of catholics. Both leadership of the UVF and UDA admitted me tried to control them.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decissioning
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 05:50 AM

Everyone move on now. Nothing to see. All go home.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decissioning
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 05:43 AM

I was so sad to read recently that when the Grand Master of The Orange Order in Belfast Dawson Baille was asked for his response to the recent disturbances in loyalist areas of Belfast he sat on television and said he totally condoned violence. He condoned all violence and understood why they did it. He added he condoned attacks against the police. He is an ex member of the Royal Ulster Constubalary himself. If this is local leadership I am sorry for your future over there.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decissioning
From: ard mhacha
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 05:39 AM

In 1969 when the Unionists were thinking of advocating one man one vote to the Nationalists, the UVF bombed a number of electrical power transmitters in both Northern Ireland and the Republic, knowing that the IRA would be blamed and the "generous"consession by the northern government would be overturned.

The media along with both governments blamed the IRA, when a UVF man was killed planting a bomb in Donegal the local Nationalists had their suspicions confirmed as to who the culprits were.   Let there be no doubt Nationalist areas will again be in more danger than before, as Paisley and Co urges the Protestant people to "defend Ulster".

Already the Unionists are saying that the Decommisioning body have been hoodwinked.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decissioning
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 05:31 AM

"Peter K. I don't know much about Rhodesia but I do know that defeated armies usually pile their weapons in a bunch to be witnessed by all. However the I.R.A. were not defeated"

You don't indeed know much about it, Jimmy. Zanu PF and Zapu PF were not defeated. In fact they were the outright winners. That's why Rhodesia is now Zimbabwe. I'm pointing this out only because it directly undermines the point you tried to make.

From the fact that you see a continuing case for private armies I assume you are not content with democratic process. That attitude raises legitimate concerns in the minds of decent prods, of whom there are some, believe it or not. Understandably so in my view.

Keith A, you're absolutely right. These threads tend to be tediously one-sided, with some contributors incapable of seeing the problems from any standpoint but their own.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decissioning
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 04:59 AM

It's certainly a tough one. While it is easy to prove the existance of something it is impossible to prove non-existance of same. To prove weapons exist you simply have to find them - Ask George Bush and Tony Blair;-) To prove they don't exist by the same example you would have to ask Saddam Hussein how he fared...

As to the loyalist viewpoint - I can understand them even if I disagree. Bearing in mind that people judge each other by their own standards it becomes simple to see how the likes of Paisley believe that everyone else is lying and cheating. They firmly believe that if they give up the power they have they will be treated in the same manner as they have treated to Nationalist and Catholic peoples.

The difficult thing now will be to convince them that they will be treated fairly and justly in any future establishment. We know they will, everyone else knows they will but they genuinely believe that they will become second class citizens if they give up the power they have. Having learned, from the Nationalists, that just removing the power only causes problems the governments of both England and Ireland wnat to ensure the Unionist faction do not become the 'new IRA'.

Beyond me I'm afraid but I'm sure someone will eventualy arrive at the right solution.

Cheers

Dave the Gnome

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decissioning
From: GUEST,Divis Sweeney
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 04:39 AM

Can we all put the last 35 years behind us and accept Catholics deserve seats in local government.The D.U.P. will always resist this, wish they would just come out and be honest. The reason for our men not to to use a gun is more important than owning one. The Republican fight is over. Can we just be seen as equals by the Ulster protestant ? I doubt this. What went into concrete yesterday was massive.A fifth of the arsenal wasn't even out of its grease packing. The Provisionals in a statement some time back apologised for the loss of life in the conflict. A few Loyalist groups did too. So gentlemen together put this to bed and lets not get into the blame game.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decissioning
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 03:50 AM

Forget it Keith. They would just be shot down by a 100 abusive posts. Mudcat exists to reinforce certain views only.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decissioning
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 27 Sep 05 - 03:34 AM

Pity Mudcat has no contributors from the Loyalist side.
Can anyone put their arguments across?

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decissioning
From: Jimmy C
Date: 26 Sep 05 - 10:07 PM

Mr. Happy _ a mere typo, did you never make one ???.

Greg, - Chastelaine was a witness to the event, what he did say is that he cannot prove outright that 100% of the weapons were destroyed. In fact nobodey can prove that. If an individual nationalist keeps a single revolver for example, does that diminish the big picture ?.

Peter K. I don't know much about Rhodesia but I do know that defeated armies usually pile their weapons in a bunch to be witnessed by all. However the I.R.A. were not defeated, this act today is an opening for unionists to recognise a genuine invitation to get together to settle on the future of the country, if they fail to do that then they cannot blame anyone but themselves.

I also know that they have a historic right to be there just as much as many white people in North America, the difference is that the whites in North America became North Americans, the loyalists in the 6 counties have never, even after many generations considered themselves Irish, and that mindset has to change. Of course when they leave and go to Australia, America, Canada or wherever they are all of a sudden Irish. I guarantee you will never get Paisley or any of his followers to openly declare themselves to be Irish. And that is sad, very sad.

The effects of this decommisioning will be clearly seen in the next elections with massive gains for Sinn Fein in both the north and the south.

Although I personally do not agree with giving up the guns it is asmart and politically shrewd move by the I.R.A.

The unionists tonight must imagine themselves to be stalemated.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decissioning
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 26 Sep 05 - 09:28 PM

Sure Jimmy, the Provos deserve credit, and no-one in his right mind would "pin the blame for the troubles almost entirely on the nationalists and IRA". The biggest problem now, as I have said over and over again, is the mindset in loyalism. Not only have they lost the Ascendancy (which they abused mercilessly) but they now see themselves as an extremely vulnerable minority on the island of Ireland.

In historic terms their entitlement to live in Ireland is stronger than the entitlement of any white guy to live in north America. And arguably they have been less exploitative of the indigenous population than their white counterparts were in the US. Anyone intrested in long-term reconciliation will be cutting them some slack right now, by ignoring their stupidities and the flounderings of the feeble loyalist leadership.

I may be no fan of this Blair government, but they can't be faulted on the peace process. Likewise the Dublin government, whose justice minister is right as well as self-interested, in his concern that the proceeds of crime could now be used to fund Sinn Fein political campaigning. (This risk still holds even if the Provos had nothing to do with the Northern Bank robbery.) I can't think of any democracy in the world that takes issue with the approach of the UK government.

Incidentally, as Greg has implied, this whole decommissioning process is laughably convoluted. Does the IRA really have to be so coy? At the end of the war for independence in what was then Rhodesia, the troops of Zanu PF and Zapu PF came out of the country and into the cities, and placed their weapons on huge piles, in front of the whole world. Ian Smith and his cronies would certainly have had a credibility problem if they'd tried to deny it had happened. So why make it so easy for Paisley?

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decissioning
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 26 Sep 05 - 09:23 PM

Decommissioning was carried out alright, under a complete media blackout. And now we can watch and see what the loyalists do next, though I'm afraid we may already know. Hope the North is ready for all that is to come...God bless Ireland, all 32 counties.

E

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decissioning
From: gnu
Date: 26 Sep 05 - 08:51 PM

Big Mick said : "Putting the ball in their court, in the long haul, will be seen as a brilliant move."

Pray they pick up the ball.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decissioning
From: greg stephens
Date: 26 Sep 05 - 07:06 PM

Strange the language of Irish politics. Chastelain says he believes it was done, but he doesn't know it was done. This kind of theological nit picking I find confusing.

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decissioning
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 26 Sep 05 - 06:41 PM

None so blind ...

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decissioning
From: Mr Happy
Date: 26 Sep 05 - 06:37 PM

Decissioning?

Subject: RE: BS: I.R.A. Decissioning
From: Big Mick
Date: 26 Sep 05 - 05:41 PM

Yeah, Jimmy. Looks like these Orange lads will do exactly what has always been said would be done. Many of us here have said repeatedly that the problem in the peace process lied across the divide. And Paisley and company are proving it. Shows the brilliance in the plan. Kind of has echoes of 1916, eh, in that this may turn world opinion against the obstructionists? Back then it was the acts of the British military which turned public opinion against them after the executions.

Putting the ball in their court, in the long haul, will be seen as a brilliant move. Now ...... onward to the elections.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: BS: I.R.A. Decissioning
From: Jimmy C
Date: 26 Sep 05 - 04:52 PM

News from Ireland that the I.R.A. has put all it's weapons beyond use. Thia act was witnessed by the decomissioning committee, one catholic clergyman and one protestant clergyman. This news should be welcomed with relief and open arms ? one would think,

Well think again. Almost immediately the Loyalist leaders and politicians are saying that it is not enough. (which is what I expected to hear anyway.). For all those who in the past have jumped on the bandwagon and condemned the I.R.A. for one thing or another, forgetting the fact that the I/R.A. has adhered to it's ceasefire since 1997/98, The following is part of a statement from a leading unionist.

Please bear this statement in mind when trying to pin the blame for the troubles in N.Ireland, almost entirely on the Nationalist and the I.R.A.

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General John de Chastelain will not see loyalists decommission if "he lives to be 208", a prominent loyalist has said.
The general said he was satisfied the IRA had given up all its weapons, and said he hoped loyalists would as well.

Sammy Duddy, a member of the Ulster Political Research Group - which advises the UDA, said loyalists would not follow the IRA's lead.

"The general has no chance of seeing that achieved. Should he live to be 208, he'll never see it," he said.

"He's living in cloud-cuckoo-land if he thinks the loyalists are going to decommission and do what the IRA's doing.

'Greatest fear'

"You see, the IRA have all the clout, this is how they've come to the table today.

"They've all the clout, they can go and make another Canary Wharf tomorrow.

"The greatest fear is the threat of a united Ireland. As I said it would be resisted by all and every opportunity and we don't care about other things as such."

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As one who has more thatn a passing interest in these development my congtatulations goes out to Sinn- Fein and the I.R.A for taking this tremendous step and leap of faith.

My prayers are also with those nationalist communities in Belfast, Derry. Arnagh, Newry, and other little towns throughout the 6 counties, because they are now in greater danger than ever,. The statement from Sammy Duddy means only one thing, that is that the catholic/natiolist areas will be attacked, tormented, goaded to a greater degree than we have seen or some time by radical loyalist hoping against hope for soem sort of retalitory response so they can break the peace accord. An accord that they never supported in the first place. In previous threads, myself and others have stated that the unionistst's want nothing short of a return to the the old days when they ruled the roost. - Mark my words, in the coming weeks the attacks on catholics and catholic neighbourhoods will increase. I hope the ones who were critical about the McCartney murders will get their eyes open and I hope they are as critical of the loyalists as they have been of the I.R.A.

Jimmy C