UK Licensing Act - another petition.

Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 09:35 PM

Hmm. Still less popular so far than legalising cannabis or stopping the persecution of smokers.

Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 11:27 AM

Thank you Penny - if everyone can just circulate the link - I am sure that we can obtain more than the current 611 names.

Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 11:01 AM

It looks as if the Ship has gone tits up again....

Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: GUEST,Penny Black
Date: 14 Dec 06 - 09:18 AM

We have signed and can see no down side to signing a petition basically asking for further thought as to the adverse effects of the licencing law... after all this is what we all kept shouting about.

Misuse by LAs and lack of implementation of current laws being abused, to the disturbance of other, really isn't the problem

The problem is that the new licence has caused sessions, dance events etc to be cancelled - when there was no real need and it has taken away the God given right to make music and dance.

We were promised that the license would be re-looked at, and that is all the petition is asking for, let them know there have been problems and WE the people are not happy with it as it stands it's time for a change!

PB
singing as long as the fridge door is open

To help promote and bring the Petition to more eyes, a flckr website has been set up at http://www.flickr.com/groups/keepmusiclive/

Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 06:28 PM

I am sorry, but I cannot sign it. I live between two pubs and the electric music and dance they have (often outwith their licence terms, about which the LA does squat) makes my life and the life of many in the village a misery.

Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: Rasener
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 05:57 PM

I have seen that.

I am on the list now. Good to see Pete Coe and Sue Coe are on there.

We came over this year and my children enjoyed Amsterdam very much.

Coming back in August 2007.

What a wonderful time I had over there, I Lived there for 13 years.

Les Worrall

Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 05:50 PM

I live in Amsterdam?

It is Dominic Cronin (who started this petition) who lives in Amsterdam.

Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: Rasener
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 05:42 PM

Hey Shambles, didn't realise you lived in Amsterdam. My wife is an Amsterdamse.

Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Barden of England
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 05:29 PM

Mine is too

Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: vectis
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 04:20 PM

yes

Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 03:57 PM

Now there are 243 - is your name there yet?

Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 06:22 AM

The following from Hamish Birchall.

Please circulate

A new online live music petition was started yesterday on the Number 10 website by folk musician Dominic Cronin:
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/licensing/#detail

'We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to recognise that music and dance should not be restricted by burdensome licensing regulations. The recently introduced changes in licensing law have produced an environment where music and dance, activities which should be valued and promoted in a civilised society, are instead damaged by inappropriate regulation. We call on the Prime Minister to recognise this situation and take steps to correct it.'

The wording is not ideal, but I would urge you to sign.

The government may respond 'licensing is not burdensome, and research shows no damage to live music and dance'. This is spin.

Ministers said the new Act would be 'much better for live music'. But about 40% of bars have lost their previous automatic entitlement to one or two musicians, and yet are free to continue providing recorded music or broadcast entertainment with unlimited amplification. Despite the banter in Parliament, the government is extremely concerned about public opinion on this issue.

It must be damaging that in so many circumstances, organising live music could be a crime. The Act defines premises as 'any place' - it can apply almost anywhere, not just in pubs or bars. The maximum penalty for providing unlicensed live music, where a licence is required, is a £20,000 fine and six months in prison. This is a greater penalty than is available for:

Violent disorder, affray, harassment, bomb hoax, stirring up racial hatred;
Various assaults, including wounding, actual bodily harm, and assaulting a police officer in the execution of his duty;
Burglary, theft, handling stolen goods, deception, forgery, 'taking and driving away';
Arson, criminal damage;
Intimidation of witnesses, wasting police time;
Possessing a controlled drug, supplying a controlled drug and intent;
Dangerous driving, driving with excess alcohol in the blood, breath or urine;
Carrying a loaded firearm in a public place; Bigamy;
and Official Secrets Act offences.

Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles
Date: 13 Dec 06 - 06:12 AM

There are now 44.

Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles
Date: 12 Dec 06 - 08:18 PM

The petition is now ready to be signed - on the following site.

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/licensing/

When i looked - there were 14 signatures........

Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: GUEST,skipy
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 12:09 PM

Imagination is "nothing but decaying sense" and is the same as Memory).
Hobbes
(Skipy)

Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 11:44 AM

No, we all need a government to organise the neessary things that we would not find time to organise but need. Whether we need Hobbes Leviathan is another question.

Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: Scrump
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 09:48 AM

We would be much better off with no government - think of the money we'd save.

Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 08:15 AM

No, under a conservative conspiracy only the rich have the time and money to sing or dance (or indeed the inclination).

The rest of us need to save up to buy the makings of Molotov cocktails.

Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: ThreeSheds
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 07:51 AM

No

Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 07:46 AM

Is anybody coming round to the view that we would actually be better off with a Conservative government ?

Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 07:27 AM

Yes skipy but one of the problems is that various councils are making "incidental" mean what they want it to mean, in the best tradition of TweedleDee and TweedleDum. I suggested at the time the Act was passing that definition was needed but would the DCMS listen? Do I need to give you the answer?

Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 06:19 AM

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE - 11th December 2006

600 YEAR OLD WILTSHIRE TRADITION ENDANGERED BY NEW LICENSING LAWS

For details of the above see

Affected by the Licensing Act 2003

Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: GUEST,skipy
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 05:52 AM

See 11
PART 2
EXEMPTIONS
Film exhibitions for the purposes of advertisement, information, education, etc.

5    The provision of entertainment consisting of the exhibition of a film is not to be regarded as the provision of regulated entertainment for the purposes of this Act if its sole or main purpose is to-

(a) demonstrate any product,
(b) advertise any goods or services, or
(c) provide information, education or instruction.
Film exhibitions: museums and art galleries

6    The provision of entertainment consisting of the exhibition of a film is not to be regarded as the provision of regulated entertainment for the purposes of this Act if it consists of or forms part of an exhibit put on show for any purposes of a museum or art gallery.

Music incidental to certain other activities

7    The provision of entertainment consisting of the performance of live music or the playing of recorded music is not to be regarded as the provision of regulated entertainment for the purposes of this Act to the extent that it is incidental to some other activity which is not itself-

(a) a description of entertainment falling within paragraph 2, or
(b) the provision of entertainment facilities.
Use of television or radio receivers

8    The provision of any entertainment or entertainment facilities is not to be regarded as the provision of regulated entertainment for the purposes of this Act to the extent that it consists of the simultaneous reception and playing of a programme included in a programme service within the meaning of the Broadcasting Act 1990 (c. 42).

Religious services, places of worship etc.

9    The provision of any entertainment or entertainment facilities-

(a) for the purposes of, or for purposes incidental to, a religious meeting or service, or
(b) at a place of public religious worship,
is not to be regarded as the provision of regulated entertainment for the purposes of this Act.

Garden fêtes, etc.

10    (1) The provision of any entertainment or entertainment facilities at a garden fête, or at a function or event of a similar character, is not to be regarded as the provision of regulated entertainment for the purposes of this Act.

      (2) But sub-paragraph (1) does not apply if the fête, function or event is promoted with a view to applying the whole or part of its proceeds for purposes of private gain.

      (3) In sub-paragraph (2) "private gain", in relation to the proceeds of a fête, function or event, is to be construed in accordance with section 22 of the Lotteries and Amusements Act 1976 (c. 32).

Morris dancing etc.

11    The provision of any entertainment or entertainment facilities is not to be regarded as the provision of regulated entertainment for the purposes of this Act to the extent that it consists of the provision of-

(a) a performance of morris dancing or any dancing of a similar nature or a performance of unamplified, live music as an integral part of such a performance , or
(b) facilities for enabling persons to take part in entertainment of a description falling within paragraph (a).
Vehicles in motion

12    The provision of any entertainment or entertainment facilities-

(a) on premises consisting of or forming part of a vehicle, and
(b) at a time when the vehicle is not permanently or temporarily parked,
is not to be regarded as the provision of regulated entertainment for the purposes of this Act.
skipy

Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: BanjoRay
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 05:52 AM

Tye petition is so vaguely worded that it can't possibly achieve anything - the government could do what it liked and still say it was carrying out the wishes of the petition.
Ray

Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 05:52 AM

Council enforce fee for band playing 'non-religious' Jingle Bells
Daily Mail
- Last updated at 22:00pm on 27th October 2006

Full story here.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=413100&in_page_id=1770

Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: GUEST, ...
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 05:46 AM

Perhaps if we could get a few doctors on board, to write prescriptions for us, we could carry on singing and dancing on the National Health.

Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 05:41 AM

A call for total or almost total deregulation of music and dance lacks any sort of credibility and frankly damages the possibly otherwise attainable causes of "our" lobby.

I agree but.

I had no part in this petition or its wording but I do not see that it is calling for total deregulation.

All it appears to be asking is that the Govenment ensure that what they themselves have claimed for their Act - as regards music and dancing - is the case in practice.

Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 02:35 AM

Care needs to be taken when phrasing petitions. Music and dance do not always need regulation but sometimes they obviously do. At one extreme lie illegal raves which can keep the population of many square miles awake for days and nights on end, provide a major boost for the local recreational chemical industry, and have thousands doing what bears do in the woods, resulting in a distasteful situation that will remain for a considerable time.    At another point on the envelope lies the huge commercial festival - such as Glastonbury. At another lies outdoor opera - where again the sound can carry for miles and the wealthy patrons believe that local rules need not apply to them. Then of course you have the the contrasts of on the one hand warehouses (adapted or otherwise) thudding to "music of black origin" and the turf wars of rappers, but on the other hand the may dance or genteel tea dance. And naturally at some point you come to "incidental" music in premises that, because they lawfully sell alcohol for consumption on the premises are already substantially regulated, but where some types of music add to disorder (believe me, I live between two pubs - let's face it where people or animals, and sometimes the distinction can be hard to draw, compete for mates there is going to be violence) but some types of music such as unamplified folk music which are going to be inaudible 50 yards away and (apart from people like the loathsome performer on the "musical" saw at last year's Miskin festival) never or virtually never lead to disturbance.

A call for total or almost total deregulation of music and dance lacks any sort of credibility and frankly damages the possibly otherwise attainable causes of "our" lobby.

What could be done is to exempt music performed without electrical amplification, wholly or mainly for the enjoyment of those making it, and to define "incidental" or at least create some presumptions as to the meaning of that word that will give some sensible structure.

Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: Bonecruncher
Date: 11 Dec 06 - 12:54 AM

I understand that Mummer's Plays are also banned unless the premises has a licence specifically for "plays".
Colyn.

Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: ET
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 04:48 PM

Good idea although the Govt takes little notice of petitions. Today I was in a Sam Smiths pub as part of a C17 reenactment group. A few of us sang some early caroles and one played a medieaval wooden recorder (very skillfully). Many of the folk in the pub stopped yattering and joined in obviously enjoying it. The landlady ran from downstairs saying we were in breach of the breweries rules about no music so we stopped, to the annoyance of all concerned. Agreed this is the Brewery, not the Government but the pub no longer had a music licence and the ban was just as effective.

Subject: RE: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 01:54 PM

The full response to the earlier (and well-supported) petition can be see on the following site.

http://www.number-10.gov.uk/output/Page4259.asp

It includes the following undertaking.

We have also given an undertaking that we will review the existing descriptions of entertainment in the Act six to twelve months after the end of the transition period. If the Act has had an unintended, disproportionate negative effect on the provision of live music -or other forms of regulated entertainment-, there are powers already in the Bill to modify the position through secondary legislation.

However we believe that the provisions in the Licensing Act will allow live music and other regulated entertainment to thrive.


Morris dancing and dancing of a similar nature are exempt from the requirement for a licence under the Act.


The Department will also be setting up a forum, comprising representatives of performers, venue operators, local authorities and others whose task it will be to advertise the advantages of the reforms and to maximise the take-up.

Subject: UK Licensing Act - another petition.
From: The Shambles
Date: 10 Dec 06 - 01:31 PM

The following was posted on uk.music.folk. See also Affected by the Licensing Act 2003
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Perhaps this would be a good moment to instigate a petition on the
prime minister's web site.

http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/

This feature of the site is currently "in beta", and it's interesting
to see how it's being used. The leading two petitions are way clearly
being co-ordinated by well-organised interest groups, and it would be
difficult (although surely not impossible) to muster that kind of
support.

On the other hand, all the publicity I've seen about the "petitions"
feature makes reference to the success of the petition that the prime
minister should "stand on his head and juggle ice cream". This would
therefore be a very good target to aim for. As I write this, the ice
cream petition has 2095 signatories. Couldn't we get above this?

With this in mind, I've created a petition with the following wording:

We the undersigned petition the Prime Minister to recognise
that music and dance should not be restricted by burdensome
licensing regulations.

The recently introduced changes in licensing law have produced
an environment where music and dance, activities which should
be valued and promoted in a civilised society, are instead
damaged by inappropriate regulation. We call on the Prime
Minister to recognise this situation and take steps to correct
it.

This is currently going being processed by the "team" at Number 10. If
I've understood things correctly, the petition should become available
at http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/licensing once they've done whatever it
is they do.

Please support the petition.

--

Dominic Cronin
Amsterdam