BS: Counselors on same sex marriage

Subject: RE: BS: Counselors on same sex marriage
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 02:05 PM

If it is not safe and healthy, then it follows that this behaviour must be dangerous and unhealthy.....unless you can come up with another explanation for the disparity?

Like skydiving, bullfighting, mountain biking, TT riding, off piste skiing and mountain climbing, and a couple of dozen more things that some people do for fun.

You're not prattling on about a ban on those, so your concern for the health of gays, who unlike the sportsmen don't choose to accept the dangers, but, according to best medical evidence are born that way, is just so much hot air.

You just don't like the idea that Gays exist, but have to cover that homophobia with a spurious concern.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Counselors on same sex marriage
From: Musket
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 09:35 AM

There's a coincidence, politicians don't respect your stance either. Not even the more rabid reactionary ones, because even most of them see the difference between reality and prostituting themselves to con idiots like you into voting for them.

Murderous foreign adventures? What the flying has that to do with same sex counselling? Oh, nothing at all. Deflecting from the argument because you are ashamed of what you wrote..

Or should be.

Subject: RE: BS: Counselors on same sex marriage
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 07:42 AM

I do not respect the stance of any of our political parties on a whole raft of policies, what they support is what the media dictates.

What is that word you "liberals" are always using to justify your murderous foreign adventures?......Oh yes....democracy! :0)

What allegations of rape?   You made the statement before any allegations of rape and there still have been none?

Subject: RE: BS: Counselors on same sex marriage
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 07 Mar 13 - 02:49 AM

PC Plod and I have a view in common. If you use and abuse your position to frighten people into having sex with you, there have been successful rape convictions in UK courts. So if the priests make an allegation of rape there could be a case to answer. Not that I am an expert on law but repeating the allegations by a leading QC.

Your weaseling refusal to agree with your own comments didn't go unnoticed. They just appeared to show that even you are beginning to question your outrageous stance on equality and decency.

You then blew it by saying you will carry on stating it, ,presumably without endorsing your own diatribe.

Oh by the way. You lost. Miserably. Not a single political party with a hope of power either side of the Tweed supports a return to mainstream bigotry. So its just you and a few frustrated leaders of superstition. Neither of which are of interest to today's society.

Subject: RE: BS: Counselors on same sex marriage
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 07:11 PM

From the link in the OP:

"In drawing conclusions, we rely on the best empirical research available, focusing on general patterns rather than any single study," the briefs state. All the studies cited in the brief were critically evaluated to assess their methodology, including the reliability and validity of the measures and tests employed, and the quality of data-collection procedures and statistical analyses.


Do your "impeccable sources" rise to this standard?

Subject: RE: BS: Counselors on same sex marriage
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 07:07 PM

Untill the male homosexual health figures come anywhere near those for heterosexuals, I shall continue to assert that male to male sex is not to be encouraged as "safe and healthy". If it is not safe and healthy, then it follows that this behaviour must be dangerous and unhealthy.....unless you can come up with another explanation for the disparity?

While it's undeniably true that promiscuous male/male sex is more dangerous than promiscuous male/female sex, the key word is "promiscuous". How this fact could be used as an argument against same sex marriage totally escapes me. If anything, it should be an argument for same sex marriage. Absent adultery or a "swinging" lifestyle, married people don't receive or transmit STDs, regardless of the married partners' genders.

Subject: RE: BS: Counselors on same sex marriage
From: KB in Iowa
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 03:20 PM

BTW....if you took the time to read my post, you would see that i did not say that homosexuality was a perversion.....but do you doubt that the opinion is widely held?....in the UK, US and worldwide?

I see. You are saying that GfS thinks homosexuality is a perversion but you are not taking a stance on that position.

Subject: RE: BS: Counselors on same sex marriage
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 03:11 PM

Matthew Shepard was a young, openly gay man, who was attending the University of Wyoming in Casper, Wyoming. The following describes what happened to him:

Shortly after midnight on October 7, 1998, Shepard met Aaron McKinney and Russell Henderson for the first time at the Fireside Lounge in Laramie, Wyoming. It was decided that McKinney and Henderson would give Shepard a ride home. McKinney and Henderson subsequently drove the car to a remote, rural area and proceeded to rob, pistol-whip, and torture Shepard, tying him to a fence and leaving him to die.

Still tied to the fence, Shepard, who was still alive. but in a coma, was discovered 18 hours later by Aaron Kreifels, a cyclist who initially mistook Shepard for a scarecrow.

Shepard had suffered fractures to the back of his head and in front of his right ear. He experienced severe brainstem damage, which affected his body's ability to regulate heart rate, body temperature, and other vital functions. There were also about a dozen small lacerations around his head, face, and neck. His injuries were deemed too severe for doctors to operate. Shepard never regained consciousness and remained on full life support. While he lay in intensive care, candlelight vigils were held by the people of Laramie.

Shepard was pronounced dead at 12:53 a.m. on October 12, 1998, at Poudre Valley Hospital, in Fort Collins, Colorado. He was 21 years old.

.I suppose Wyoming (and a number of other areas around the United States) would qualify as a "locality" that Akenaton speaks of where "the vast majority of ordinary people . . . see homosexuality as perversion."

I firmly believe that because of the hate-mongering and homophobia expressed by people such as Goofball and Akenaton, that they share in the responsibility for atrocities such as the brutal murder of Matthew Shepard and others like him. The so-called "scientific data" (not accepted, or actually refuted, by the vast majority of scientist in the field) that people like these two persist in spouting gives fuel to sick minds of sick people such as Aaron McKinney and Russell Henderson, Matthew Shepard's murderers.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Counselors on same sex marriage
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 02:32 PM

"All my expressed opinions on this issue are based on established fact,
The figures are incontrovertible and from impeccable sources"

Except that nearly all of the relevant professional societies and the peer-reviewed literature disagree with you. Did you not read the link in the OP?

I was wrong about GfS...you are not alone, you are alone with each other.

And pathetic.

Subject: RE: BS: Counselors on same sex marriage
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 01:51 PM

BTW....if you took the time to read my post, you would see that i did not say that homosexuality was a perversion.....but do you doubt that the opinion is widely held?....in the UK, US and worldwide?

Subject: RE: BS: Counselors on same sex marriage
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 01:47 PM

Hello Ian :0).....surprised to see YOU coming out from you hole after branding a Cardinal O'Brien "a rapist". The cardinal appears to be a hypocrite, a drunken fool, and a homosexual, but "rape" has not been mentioned in any report that I have read.
If I were you, I would be expecting a call from PC Plod anytime now.

All my expressed opinions on this issue are based on established fact,
The figures are incontrovertible and from impeccable sources, while your foam flecked rhetoric is like most of what you write, bullshit!

Subject: RE: BS: Counselors on same sex marriage
From: Musket
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 12:48 PM

The person masquerading as Akenaton...

If this forum is unrepresentative of public opinion, then bear in mind that personality disorder and criminality are not views, they are problems for society to deal with.

If you think homosexuality is a perversion, then it the same as saying that burglary is OK if the victim has more money than you, or that paedophiles need to be heard.

I will continue to say that whilst ever your odious views are spouted, I shall continue to assert that you have no valid view view in decent society, you have no right to promote crime.

Back in your hole, there's a good chap.

Subject: RE: BS: Counselors on same sex marriage
From: frogprince
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 12:24 PM

On the one hand, you have the pharmacuticals and health care managers: they have a great tendency to push pills for everything, and charge as much as they can get away with. Does anyone really have to ask why?

On the other hand, we have the list that was given of medical, psycological, and psychiatrict organizations who have shifted from insisting that homosexual people need to be treated for their condition to saying that homosexuality is a normal variation in the human condition; no need to shell out money to a therapist or counsellor.

Obviously just different examples of the same dynamic...
er...uhhh....

Subject: RE: BS: Counselors on same sex marriage
From: Lighter
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 10:39 AM

In various "localities" it is or has been "widely believed" that slavery is fine, Jews run the world, the tribe over the mountain isn't quite human, the wealthy should be killed and their property parceled out, God favors the few, and/or sex before marriage is a sin.

So what?

Subject: RE: BS: Counselors on same sex marriage
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 10:02 AM

LOL Wesley!

I think it just comes out naturally in those BS sessions when the ladies drink tea and the men gather in the closet.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Counselors on same sex marriage
From: Wesley S
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 08:34 AM

" In my locality the vast majority of ordinary people whom i come into contact with, see homosexuality as perversion."

I always wonder how topics like that show up in actual conversation. "Hmm.. Cold enough for you? Did you watch the game last night? How's the traffic out there? And by the way - don't you think that homosexuality is a perversion?"

So how DO you manage to work it in?

Subject: RE: BS: Counselors on same sex marriage
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 08:23 AM

Thank fuck I live nowhere near you ake - maybe you would like to go and share the fugitive's planet and leave civilisation alone.

Round here thankfully homophobia is rare.

Subject: RE: BS: Counselors on same sex marriage
From: akenaton
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 08:08 AM

Tia.....GfS is not alone in his views. In my locality the vast majority of ordinary people whom i come into contact with, see homosexuality as perversion.
I meet a very large number of people of all classes and political opinions through my work environment.
This forum is highly unrepresentative of public opinion on the subject, as most here are left wing or centre "liberals".
There is a whole different world out there you know, peopled by many who would not fit into the stereotype presented by the entertainment media.....that to be "funny", "talented","cool", one must be homosexual or at least go along with the charade.

Untill the male homosexual health figures come anywhere near those for heterosexuals, I shall continue to assert that male to male sex is not to be encouraged as "safe and healthy". If it is not safe and healthy, then it follows that this behaviour must be dangerous and unhealthy.....unless you can come up with another explanation for the disparity?

Subject: RE: BS: Counselors on same sex marriage
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 07:27 AM

""when all you surround yourself with wishful thinkers...or better yet, delusional, vociferous people.""

You really shouldn't be so hard on yourself.

You can't help being delusional, though perhaps your tendency to be vociferous might be eased by a little self control.

You would also benefit greatly from a few English lessons,....and a brain transplant!

Now, if you really think we shouldn't rely on the word of delusional people, maybe you should bugger off!

Don T

Subject: RE: BS: Counselors on same sex marriage
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 07:20 AM

""how would you counsel someone, based on a 'science' that isn't even proven???""

Well I certainly wouldn't suggest they be counselled by a nutjob who is so ignorant of science as to believe that it is ever definitively "proven", and counsels on the basis of having denied all that is known about the subject.

What a prize twat!

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Counselors on same sex marriage
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 04:14 AM

Sorry, but I cannot support a premise based on wishful thinking...nor can I get behind a political agenda pandering to wishful thinking...nor would I base a political platform based on an unsupported premise of wishful thinking.
Insofar as being 'alone' in my thinking...well, that is only what you may think, when all you surround yourself with wishful thinkers...or better yet, delusional, vociferous people.
That would be as absolutely silly, as to think that a guy looks in a mirror, and deludes himself with believing he is the 'woman inside, trying to get out'...fact is, he is not a woman(or vice verse)..he is a guy, most likely finding a sensitive side, within himself uncomfortable.
You can CHOOSE to believe what you want, you can empathize with those who chose to believe what they want, you can agree with those who profit off of supporting a delusion..but Nope..I'm sticking to the factual...

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Counselors on same sex marriage
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 02:50 AM

Maybe the best place for the fugitive from sanity would be a separate planet - away from all human beings. Totally alone.

Subject: RE: BS: Counselors on same sex marriage
From: GUEST,Musket sans cookie
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 02:50 AM

And now, especially for the benefit of Goofus, a contribution from the good professor.

Ready boy?

Woof woof woof!

A little harsh, don't you think?

Woof grrrr woof!

Ok, fair point.

Subject: RE: BS: Counselors on same sex marriage
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 01:02 AM

That's what counts.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Counselors on same sex marriage
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 12:50 AM

Thanks so much Don.
I am proud of her.
And more importantly, she is so proud of herself!

Subject: RE: BS: Counselors on same sex marriage
From: Don Firth
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 12:48 AM

Many congratulations, TIA! And to the young 'un!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Counselors on same sex marriage
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 06 Mar 13 - 12:31 AM

GfS;

You are totally and abjectly alone.

The community of colleagues that you have always touted to us disagrees with you.
In response you flail incoherently and blame "politics".
I actually pity you.
Truly.
But that won't stop me from opposing you when you spout hateful (and self-hating?) bullshit.

Tonight, I am again basking in the joy of a tremendous (musical in this case*) accomplishment by one of my children whom you so consistently and unthinkingly denigrate.
I really do wish you could share in such things rather than marinate in fear and loathing.







*selected for All-Region Orchestra on french horn to be precise

Subject: RE: BS: Counselors on same sex marriage
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 08:00 PM

If scientific findings disagree with Goofball's prejudices (especially if it might affect the "counselors" pocketbook), then of course that means the fags gays and their naive loony liberal friends have bribed the whole scientific community.

Yeah. Sure, Goofball.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Counselors on same sex marriage
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 07:16 PM

Now of course, some of you may think I'm being a bit 'harsh' when it comes to this topic...but then, really...how would you counsel someone, based on a 'science' that isn't even proven???..Pat them on the head, and tell them it's all Okay...based on their 'feelings'??..and supported by politics, that has been promoting unproven premises???

Sorry..but it is people such as yourselves that has made this a topic blown way out of proportion..because you're running with a ball, that has NO scientific merit. At best, the studies conclude with phrases like, 'studies MAY SUGGEST' or 'indicates the possibility' etc etc...and you think it's not arrogant to console people based on THAT????
Nope, I'd rather stick to what is known, than trying to experiment on people with the unknown.
Fair enough?
(Probably not..after all, this isn't the first time a political notion overshadowed known realities.).

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Counselors on same sex marriage
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 06:15 PM

That's the same phenomenon a Rorschach test is based on, "Counselor," and of course it wasn't an image of me, it was your own interpetation of a meaningless pattern.

Wishful thinking on your part, perhaps, but no significance in the world of the sane.

Are you given to hallucinations often? I'd have that seen to if I were you.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Counselors on same sex marriage
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 06:09 PM

Chavez hero, FFS wanking idiot.

Subject: RE: BS: Counselors on same sex marriage
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 05:37 PM

...and your 'likeness' was also found at Madame Tussaud's Wax Museum...in the bottom of the white bowl in the restroom.
Are you happy, now?

By the way, Hugo Chavez just died...(speaking of other pieces of shit!).

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Counselors on same sex marriage
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 04:03 PM

Madame Tussauds Wax Museum decided, for some reason best known to them, to do a wax figure of Goofball. Once finished, there was the problem of finding an appropriate place to put it.

They couldn't put it next to George Washington. Why? Because George Washington couldn't tell a lie.

They almost decided to put it next to Richard M. Nixon, because Nixon couldn't tell the truth.

The next possibility was to put it next to George. W. Bush, because Bush couldn't tell the difference.

They almost decided to put it next to Christopher Columbus, because Columbus thought he knew where he was going, when he got there he didn't know where it was, and when he got back, he didn't know where he had been.

The decision is still up in the air. They're trying to decide whether to put him next to Columbus—or Bozo the Clown.

And funniest thing of all:   they gave both Goofus and the wax dummy I.Q. tests. And the wax dummy had a higher I.Q. than Goofus.

Well, that was predictable. . . .

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Counselors on same sex marriage
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 03:56 PM

Now THAT is what I call a real response, addressing nothing!
Join the collection of ducks!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Counselors on same sex marriage
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 02:57 PM

Fuck me this nutter counsels anyone? Is it any wonder the US murder rate is so high?

Subject: RE: BS: Counselors on same sex marriage
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 01:51 PM

Donald: "Do try to find an occasional adult response. I haven't heard that very original (NOT!) name calling since primary school."

What's the matter?...don't you proof read your own posts???????!!!???!!!

GfS

P.S...anything to call attention AWAY from the article, regarding the 'medical' lobbyists!!

Ever notice, how the non-caring political phonies, want to 'close the case', rather than have anyone look TOO deep, into their plastic arguments??

Subject: RE: BS: Counselors on same sex marriage
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 01:22 PM

""Donald Duck: "...""

Do try to find an occasional adult response. I haven't heard that very original (NOT!) name calling since primary school.

Now you are 60 years behind the times, you poor dozy sap.

The world just passes you by in your soft warm Walter Mitty world, where you don't have to be the ineffectual nonentity you really are.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Counselors on same sex marriage
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 12:45 PM

Already read it. I subscribe. And it has nothing to do with the OP.

Subject: RE: BS: Counselors on same sex marriage
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 12:05 PM

Donald Duck: "... genuine Counsellors and Social workers, every one with a string of real qualific ..and no 'other interests'
I mean with this kind of stuff, who would ever doubt them!!
READ IT!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Counselors on same sex marriage
From: frogprince
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 11:16 AM

I would say TIA nailed it.

I think it may work this way; it starts with gfs being spiritually open to a direct flow of musical inspiration that comes straight from God. Once that atunement is there, gfs has an exceptional,perhaps absolutely unique, ability to understand the very mind of God regarding everything, be it psychological, moral, political...absolutely everything.

Subject: RE: BS: Counselors on same sex marriage
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 10:24 AM

"Counselor" has the truth, while the thousands and thousands of other counselors, and the peer-reviewed literature, are all wrong.
And not just innocently wrong, but willfully wrong to advance the homosexual agenda.

I think that's an accurate translation (although I did omit some...okay a lot of...verbosity)

Subject: RE: BS: Counselors on same sex marriage
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 04:26 AM

Can anyone please translate what Alice the Goon just said, preferrably in English?

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: Counselors on same sex marriage
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 03:45 AM

Yeah...Nobody has a reason to 'fund' any other of the 'left's'(?) policies...like the NDAA, and drones, and Guantanamo, and Solyndra, and Afghanistan, and Citizens United, and the Patriot Act(btw, authored by Biden in '95-'96, BEFORE 911), and Obamacare....nobody who had anything to gain, by funding those wonderful blunders, never reaped a benefit, or made a dime!!
Meanwhile, psychiatrists(especially) are going to back, something they can write a prescription for, and recommend drugs to alleviate symptomatic relief...whereas certain counselors tend to want to dig into the causes of those things....and then you've got the Bozos, who counsel, against known science and psychology, patting them on their heads, ...which understandable...but to promote a sexual practice as a civil rights issue, and turning it into a political policy, thinking it is of the same nature, as a man and a woman raising their own kids, and calling it 'marriage'??

Now just to call your attention to the obvious...(sorta when you can tell when it is built on an agenda)......these quasi-'studies'...report t5hat kids who are raised by homosexuals are 'just fine'...not too many bad side effects...right?.....and of course they've watched the progression of at least three generations, right??....BzzzzT...Wrong!!...At best, the 'study' is incomplete then, isn't it?? That's as silly as saying that the Holocaust had no psychological effects on Jewish kids, of the next generation..or two....but it did, and does.
Now you can bury your heads in the sand, and stop up your ears, as not to consider those aspects...or even address them...because it might be a bit 'inconvenient' for your in depth 'caring'....but then, hey, are you really going to base your 'concerns' on bad science, and counseling for a 'trend' d'jour??
I'd say give it more OBJECTIVE, long view observation, before I'd issue 'results and findings'.....shit, those 'researchers' make more on writing those opinions, than a good author of a good book!
Now if I was saying this to another counselor, who didn't cave in on the pressure, but stuck to what we REALLY know...we would totally understand....but being as I am not, I don't suspect you'd get it....nor do I feel a particular need to prove it. It is what it is.

Now, that being said, you keep bugging me about being a counselor...well in fact I have done some...and very well when I do...but that was not the main reason I studied, as I've posted before...and I've got news for ya'....for all those who think that even the most 'sensitive and benevolent' counselors, who are so 'calm' and 're-assuring' have their own opinions and observations, rolling around in their heads, and even muse about it...or have any private 'dot connecting', that might sound 'out of YOUR perception, of what YOU think that we are about, have another thought coming! I'm not the one, who's head is coming from a political stance, and working my way down!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Counselors on same sex marriage
From: Don Firth
Date: 05 Mar 13 - 12:23 AM

Anything to keep a tenuous grip on his forlorn hope. He's incapable of grasping the concept of integrity.

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Counselors on same sex marriage
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 04 Mar 13 - 11:31 PM

Are you pretty sure that 50+ professional/academic organizations with thousands+ members have been bought off by the extremely wealthy and influential homosexual lobby?

God help your clients "counselor" (because somebody better do it!)

Didja notice the quotes? I hope so.

Subject: RE: BS: Counselors on same sex marriage
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 04 Mar 13 - 07:55 PM

Incoherent and ungrammatical as ever...

Subject: RE: BS: Counselors on same sex marriage
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 04 Mar 13 - 05:37 PM

Ever wondered who put up the funding for those 'studies'????
Obamacare was well funded, too.....so is the 'decision' about the pipeline!!
I guess, Citizens United is only objectionable....conveniently!!

GfS

Subject: RE: BS: Counselors on same sex marriage
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 04 Mar 13 - 03:02 PM

I suspect a couple of people here would surely want everyone to see the YouTube posting of The Ultimate Anti-Gay Marriage Ad.

Only about a minute and a half, the sponsorship notice at the end will be important for some, since they will want to find the organization to offer their support.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Counselors on same sex marriage
From: DMcG
Date: 04 Mar 13 - 02:48 AM

But, actually, even if it were entirely voluntary that has no relevance for whether civil rights should be granted. Civil rights are a matter of agreement, not scientific measurement. For example we don't avoid legislation about trading just because it is voluntary.

I don't deny people often use arguments based on scientific observations in these matters, but that doesn't mean it is sensible to do so.

Subject: RE: BS: Counselors on same sex marriage
From: John P
Date: 03 Mar 13 - 09:50 PM

DMcG: But to flesh that out, there is no more a scientific reason for or against gay marriage than there is a musical one. It is a completely irrelevant mechanism for deciding the issue.

The reason it's relevant is that two of the main reasons given for denying civil rights to homosexuals are that they have chosen to live that way and that their way of living is perverted. The scientific evidence presented by these groups shows that it is not a choice and that it is normal.