BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Oct 04 - 08:48 PM

I can't vote in your election, Old Guy. I'm Canadian. I'm concerned about your election, though, because the USA affects the whole World in a very significant way. If I were American I would probably vote strategically, depending on where I was located, in order to help prevent the present administration being re-elected. That vote would in no way indicate my faith in the Democrats...I have no faith in them whatsoever.

It would simply be a protest vote against the last lot of scoundrels, that's all. They ought to be tried for war crimes, not just turfed out of office.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 11 Oct 04 - 08:25 PM

Is Nerd going to vote based on my "I might be wrong" statements?

Is Little Hawk not going to vote at all?

Should people that don't like the system should not vote? I don't like the political system but I am still going to vote for whom I like the best, not who can tell the biggest whoppers. or who belongs to which party. I don't like people who look in their rear view mirror and pick someone else's work apart while their own work is a clusterfuck of conflicts and reversed positions.

Bush has complimented Kerry on his Vietnam service. The fact remains that Kerry's campaign dwells on claims that Bush did everything wrong. Kerry does not give credit where credit is due and has no credit of his own.

This negative campaign began long before the Bush campaign turned negative. Like after Bush was compared to Hitler. Should Bush not fight back? The Democrats fired the first negative shot and cry like babies when one gets fired back.

I realize that Kerry supporters are not going to re-evaluate the situation and reverse your position. That is the action of intelligent people like Kerry.

I was resigned to having a Democrat president until re-evaluated the situation with the wannabe candidates and decided none of them are acceptable.

Now Kerry says we need to reduce terrorism to the nuisance level. When a million or so Americans die due to a terrorist attack via a dirty bomb or such on his watch will it be a nuisance or a colossal mistake?

Now I see Kerry bitching about the price of gas as and blaming it on Bush. The price of gas began rising in the spring of 2000 and contributed to the recession. Who was responsible in 2000? The problem is because people around the world are using more oil. Did bush cause a worldwide increase in oil consumption? Maybe it is arrogant assholes that own 4 mansions, a private jet, drive a fleet of vehicles including 4 SUVs that are contributing to the increase in the price of gas.

I could be correct.

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Nerd
Date: 11 Oct 04 - 05:14 PM

You know, I was just thinking about how much I actually AGREE with Old Guy about. For example:


This could be the wrong conclusion though

I could be wrong.

I could be wrong about all of this

I could be all wrong on this

I could be seriously mistaken

Never a truer word spoken, Old Guy!

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Nerd
Date: 11 Oct 04 - 04:46 PM

Uh, Old Guy, I don't see why you automatically assume that Kerry SHOULD make positive statements about an election in Afghanistan. Remember, Saddam Hussein was routinely "elected" in "elections." Did you praise the Iraqi political system? Unless the Afghan elections prove to be fair and free of fraud, they do not deserve to be validated with anyone's praise.

Whether they WERE free and fair is still in dispute, as many candidates are calling for a boycott of the count based on many reports of unfair practices. Furthermore, Bush's claim that 10,000,000 people in Afghanistan registered to vote is in itself a huge red flag: there are only about that many people in Afganistan who would be eligible to vote. In a war-torn country with limited mobility and literacy, it is impossible that 100 percent of eligible voters registered. That means many people registered more than once, which is ALREADY massive voter fraud. What's so positive about this?

As for positive things about the President, how about this, Old Guy, from the first debate:

"I believe President Bush and I both love our country equally."

How about this from the second debate:

" Mr. President, it's good to be with you again this evening, sir."

or this, also from the second debate:

"Obviously the president and I both have very strong convictions. I respect him for that."

Isn't that positive?

How many positive things has Bush said about Kerry?

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: CarolC
Date: 11 Oct 04 - 02:05 PM

I agree that Kerry and Edwards do stretch the truth at times, and I don't like it much when they do it either. But they didn't start a thread for that purpose here in the Mudcat... you did. So it's your truth-stretching that I am commenting on.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Chris Green
Date: 11 Oct 04 - 01:24 PM

You're right, LH, they're both arseholes. But the difference, for me, is that Bush is a DANGEROUS arsehole.

Old Guy, I'm sure Kerry is misrepresenting some facts - it's the nature of the political beast. However, if you're going to get huffy about politicians being "economical with the truth", then I suggest you take no further interest in party politics. Sadly we live in an age where most of the electorate votes for a candidate not because he'll do any good, but because he'll do less harm than the others! That's why, if I were from the far side of the pond, I'd vote Kerry and why Blair doesn't have a flea's chance in a furnace of getting my cross next time round.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Oct 04 - 01:05 PM

Kerry and Bush are BOTH saying whatever their unscrupulous handlers and advisors are telling them to say, on the supposition that it will win them the frigging election! Get over it, and do something useful with your own life, because neither the Democrats nor the Republicans are EVER going to do anything useful for you. Not ever. They lie like the proverbial set of twin rugs, hoping that they can fool people like you into voting for them.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 11 Oct 04 - 11:39 AM

Does Kerry or Edwards give any credit to Bush for the election in Afghanistan? Nope, they would rather dwell on things like the opium crop and Tora Bora where they magically know Osama got away.

Kerry and Edwards say there is a ban on stem cell research when they are cutting down Bush. What ban? Anybody can do whatever stem cell research they want. There is no ban on stem cell research. There is limited federal funding for stem cell research. This is a half empty / half full situation where Kerry calls a limit a ban. There is a limit to how much welfare one can receive. Is there a ban on welfare?

"John Kerry And John Edwards Support Lifting The Ban On Stem Cell Research." http://www.johnkerry.com/issues/health_care/stemcell.html


Kerry says about the war in Iraq:"The price-tag so far: $200 billion and rising every day."
http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/speeches/spc_2004_0914.html

"One liberal group, the Center for American Progress (CAP), comes up with a higher figure in an August 25 report: "so far, the war has cost the United States $144.4 billion." But that figure is produced by simply padding the OMB's $119 billion figure with $25 billion approved by Congress as an "emergency appropriation" signed into law by Bush on Aug. 5."
"Nevertheless, Kerry further pads the $144 billion figure by adding another $60 billion that his campaign says the Bush administration is expected to ask for after the election, as a supplemental appropriation. It is true that the Congressional Budget Office has estimated that an additional $56 billion will be required next fiscal year. But that's money that won't be spent until next year, and even then it's padded with more than $9 billion that doesn't actually apply to Iraq."
http://qando.net/archives/004098.htm

Kerry said. "I believe it's wrong to be opening firehouses in Baghdad and closing them in the United States of America."
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/09/08/kerry.wed/

Local governments open and close firehouses. Local governments have had a decline in collected taxes due to a recession that began in spring 2000 when the Internet bubble burst. So whom is responsible for closing firehouses?

Kerry: "His miscalculation was going to war without planning carefully and without the allies that we should have had at our side," Kerry said. "As a result, America has paid nearly 90 percent of the bill in Iraq. Contrast that with the Gulf War, where our allies paid 95 percent of the costs."
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/09/08/kerry.wed/
If the first gulf war was done correctly why did he vote against that one and for this one?

So, If you believe John Kerry is presenting the facts correctly and giving credit where credit is due, vote for Kerry

My position is subject to change.

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Oct 04 - 11:41 PM

As I've said before, I'm not a Kerry supporter, but I have heard him say positive things about Bush. And just this evening, I heard John Edwards say he thinks it's a good thing that Afghanistan held its election. I can understand your wanting to promote the candidate you want for president, but when you post stuff that you can't really back up, you do your candidate more harm than good. I find myself feeling more favorably towards Kerry every time you post, because I know that most of what you're saying is not true.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Oct 04 - 11:28 PM

He's simply doing what every candidate does...at the behest of his party and his handlers...he's trying to make his opponent look weak, misguided, and incompetent.

They all do that.

Why would this be surprising to you? People like it when their guy does it, they don't like it when the other guy does it. This kind of phony shit has been going on ever since 1780 or thereabouts, and I take it with a grain of salt, I can tell you.

Politics is not about morality, goodness, justice, honor, or principle...politics is about power. Raw power. Winning by any means that works.

That is what politics is about. You can take the rhetoric and flush it down the toilet, because that is all it's good for.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 10 Oct 04 - 11:05 PM

If I said "Kerry has said" then I would be saying what Kerry has said.

I said Kerry's strategy is to say everything Bush has done is wrong. That is all I have heard him say. I think the reason is because that is his strategy to get elected.

If he has ever said anything positive, I missed it.

I was optimistic about Dean. Edwards and Kerry. I asked myself If we are to have a democrat for President which one would be best? The other candidates were totally out of the question. After hearing the Dean scream, Finding out Edwards is a Medical liability lawyer and watching Kerry evolve into an arrogant asshole I have decided none of them are acceptable. They have driven me to support Bush. I don't follow either party, I choose who I like.

To see Kerry put down Alawi right after speaking to Congress was the last straw. He will never win a foreign ally or improve US / foreign relations because of his arrogance. He is a liberal elitist who pretends to be an average guy. Did you see him sucking up to Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson today? I bet his lips are sore.

I could be wrong.

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Oct 04 - 01:31 PM

Here you go, Old Guy:

Is Kerry supportive of this? Not if Bush had anything to do with it. His only hope of being elected is to declare everything bush did was WRONG.

Take note of the bolded words. Are you saying that Kerry has said that everything Bush has done is wrong, or are you saying that in order to get elected, Kerry will have to say that?

If you are saying that Kerry has said that, you are putting words in Kerry's mouth. If you're saying Kerry will have to say that in order to get elected, you are using your idea of what Kerry needs to do in order to get elected, to project what you think he will do. Either way, you're putting words in Kerry's mouth.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Little Hawk
Date: 10 Oct 04 - 01:10 PM

Well, here's how politics works in an adversarial (partisan) system:

The incumbent defends everything he ever did...positive statements...and attacks his opponent over various supposed weaknesses and fallacies...negative statements.

The challenger attacks everything the incumbent ever did...negative statements...and proposes things he would do instead if elected...positive statements.

The only reason that everything Kerry says sounds negative to you, Old Guy, is that you don't like Kerry in the first place. If your primary dislike was for Bush, then you would see it the other way around, and everthing Bush said would sound negative (or stupid) to you.

It's subjective, according to one's initial partisan prejudices. And that is the disease of party-driven politics.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 10 Oct 04 - 01:01 PM

"They had elections there today for the first time in their history. Is Kerry supportive of this? Not if Bush had anything to do with it. His only hope of being elected is to declare everything bush did was WRONG. Good show Kerry, win those allies and international respect."

Show me words I am putting in Kerry's mouth? I say there is an absense of any positive words.

I could have over looked some positive words.

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Oct 04 - 12:51 PM

So you were just putting your own words in Kerry's mouth. Ok. I'll keep that tactic in mind whenever I read your posts in future.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 10 Oct 04 - 12:50 PM

Nerd:

And you are refuting a point that I never made.

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 10 Oct 04 - 12:47 PM

Rule Britannia! Britannia rules the waves.
"The poem "Rule Britannia" by James Thomson (1700-48) was put to music by Thomas Augustine Arne (around 1740) and is sung as an unofficial national anthem."
http://www.britannia.com/history/rulebrit.html

I am waiting for some positive words to come out if Kerry's mouth. I haven't heard him say anything positive about progress in Afghanistan except to blabber about letting Osama get away and about the opium crop being better than ever because of Bush. A very progressive attitude that is sure to win friends and influence people.

I don't like they way Indians were taken advantage of and I don't like the fact that slavery was just matter of fact back then. But this is now and the struggle against terrorism must be pursued or we will pay a much larger price in the future.

Howard got re-elected in Australia. Score one for the Coalition.

People keep claiming that Bush and Chaney said Saddam was involved in 9/11. All I have seen and heard is that Bush and Chaney said there were connections between Al Qaeda and Iraq and that to invade Iraq was part of the war on terror.

"But at the time President Bush said, "We've had no evidence that Saddam Hussein was involved with the September 11 [attacks]. What the vice president said was that he has been involved with Al Qaeda."
"The independent, bipartisan panel that investigated the attacks released its final report July 22. The 9/11 commission found there were numerous contacts between Iraq and Al Qaeda in the 1990s, but it said those contacts did not result in a "collaborative relationship."
http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/09/12/kerry.powell.iraq/

Even if you point not that they did not say it, people respond by saying that is what they wanted us to believe even though that is not exactly what they said. In other words they are reading their own meaning into their statements to attack Bush.

I have never believed that Saddam was involved in 9/11 and I have seen or heard nothing from Bush, Chaney or anybody to make me believe that Saddam was involved 9/11. I do believe Saddam supported terrorism. One small example is that he paid the familys of Palestinian suicide bombers $25,000 for services rendered. $25 grand is a fortune to those people.

Any body that keeps beating on Bush for lying to the American public about Saddam's involvement in 9/11 is doing so with malice created by John anti-Bush Kerry as a ploitical election strategy.

I could be all wrong on this.

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Nerd
Date: 10 Oct 04 - 12:19 PM

Old Guy:

If you were trying to illustrate that Allawi was not a Saddam loyalist then you were rebutting a claim nobody made. No one on this thread said he was a Saddam loyalist. They said he used to work for Saddam and was now Bush's tool. You have said nothing that refutes that, but you did put in a brief and out-of context quote that suggests he didn't work for Saddam.

I'll accept your claim that you did this inadvertently, and REALLY were just irrelevantly refuting a point no one made.

You could be completely wrong about all this.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: CarolC
Date: 10 Oct 04 - 01:07 AM

I don't think President bush made the decision to withdraw from Afghanistan after the Soviets decided they couldn't win and left.

This withdrawal was hardly the only factor in bringing about the rise of the Taliban and its subsequent rule in Afghanistan. Blame for that state of affairs (or credit, however you want to look at it), can be given to Presidents Jimmy Carter, Ronald Reagan, George H. W. Bush, and Bill Clinton.

They had elections there today for the first time in their history. Is Kerry supportive of this? Not if Bush had anything to do with it. His only hope of being elected is to declare everything bush did was WRONG. Good show Kerry, win those allies and international respect.

Do you have any actual quotes from Kerry on this subject, or are you just putting your own words into his mouth?

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Peace
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 11:19 PM

OK, then. We'll burn it next time. Flick of my Bic?

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 10:56 PM

Well, we were part of the British Empire at that time, so either way it works, right? It was the redcoats who burnt down the White House. Damn fine job too!

As for Andrew Jackson, he was a genocidal bastard who killed a whole lot of Indians and stole their land. I am really sorry that the British did not wipe him off the face of the Earth at New Orleans. They'd have done the World a big favour.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Peace
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 10:49 PM

Excuse me, but it was Canadians who burned Washington.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 09:27 PM

Agreed, there were a number of reasons that led up to the War of 1812. Britain's efforts to blockade Napoleon's empire in Europe led directly to friction with the United States at that time...and that was really, I think, inevitable under the circumstances. I think the Americans had a right to be upset about the British actions at sea, but I also think they used it as an excuse to do what they wanted to do anyway...invade and annex British North America...and they figured the British were too involved in Europe to be able to stop them. They were overly optimistic in that regard.

The British defeat at New Orleans was due to the British commander very foolishly hurling his men across open ground at a very well prepared American defensive position...and they got slaughtered. He was obviously overly optimistic too. :-)

What you had there was some bad miscalculations on both sides. Nobody won that war in any decisive way, it was effectively a draw. It secured no real gains for either side. I don't think either of them decided "We can't win." they just both decided it wasn't worth continuing with the thing...and they were absolutely right about that. It was a war that never should have been fought (similar to most wars in that regard).

Here's one side effect that I'd say both sides did gain, though: Useful combat experience for their navies. The Americans had designed and built the world's most effective frigates by far at that time and it gave the British quite a shock when they lost some frigate-to-frigate actions with the American ships. This was a valuable wake-up call for the British Navy which had grown complacent and used to defeating any and all opponents on almost every occasion. Captain Broke of the Shannon did defeat the American ship Chesapeake, due to the fact that he had drilled his men to an absolute peak of efficiency for some time prior to that action, and that time it was the American commander who was complacent and got a surprise. It was said to be the fiercest engagement between 2 lone ships of that entire era.

Anway, as you said, "you can't can't win a battle if you think you can't win". Agreed. At least, you're sure not likely to win it...

But you can lose a battle even when you think you can win it...and if the battle is a very dumb idea in the first place then why should people not criticize the decisions that led to it?

The difference here is, you think attacking Iraq was justified, and I don't think so. I will not support a war that I think is unjustified aggression, and I will not be called a "defeatist" for objecting to a war that I am opposed to on principle. Nor should others be called defeatists for doing that. They would be defeatists if they thought that their own ideals were not worth fighting for...not because they believe your ideals are not worth fighting for.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 08:49 PM

Little Hawk:

I do remember something about the US invading Canada and failing but I think Britain did certain causative things like seizing 1000 American ships and impressing over 10,000 american sailors before any invasion and before the war was declared.
http://home.earthlink.net/~gfeldmeth/chart.1812.html

"The United States declared War on Great Britain on June 12, 1812. The war was declared as a result of long simmering disputes with Great Britain. The central dispute surrounded the impressment of American soldiers by the British. The British had previously attacked the USS Chesapeake and nearly caused a war two years earlier. In addition, disputes continued with Great Britain over the Northwest Territories and the border with Canada. Finally, the attempts of Great Britain to impose a blockade on France during the Napoleonic Wars was a constant source of conflict with the United States."
http://www.multied.com/1812/declares.html

I remember something about a song written about a battle in Baltimore wherein the British left abruptly. Then there was a peace treaty that the participants of the Battle of New Orleans were not aware of. Andrew Jackson soundly defeated the British Army in that battle, 700 British killed, 1400 wounded. U.S. losses: 8 killed, 13 wounded. Also referred in that neck of the woods to as an ass whupping. The British did win some battles and burned Washington but which side decided they could not win?

My point is this: You can't win a battle if you think you can't win.

All of the doomsday can't win defeatists might as well drink the Kool Aid and end it all.

I don't think President bush made the decision to withdraw from Afghanistan after the Soviets decided they couldn't win and left. They had elections there today for the first time in their history. Is Kerry supportive of this? Not if Bush had anything to do with it. His only hope of being elected is to declare everything bush did was WRONG. Good show Kerry, win those allies and international respect.

Asshole also refers to an the attitude of a person who is only concerned with their status in life and well being at the expense of others. They think they are better (translate to smarter) than others and deserve more.

I could be seriously mistaken.

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 01:09 PM

Old Guy, because of what terrorism is, by definition, you can't win a war against it unless you kill everybody on earth. Openly acknowleging this fact does not provide terrorists one bit of assistance. To suggest otherwise probably provides terrorists with a great deal of comfort because they know that anyone who believes they can "win a war against terrorism" is an idiot. Terrorism is a tactic. Nothing more, nothing less. The US uses terror as a tactic all the time.

Some of us have said repeatedly that terrorists (those who want to see the US brought low, at any rate) love it when people like President Bush use strong-arm tactics around the world because those tactics, and Bush himself, are the best terrorist recruiting tools in the world.

What George Washington did that we can learn from, is how to be willing and able to adjust tactics on the ground to match the reality on the ground. George Bush and his people are remarkably ineffectual at this. Otherwise, they wouldn't have made the same mistake in Afghanistan that previous presidents made; the ones that resulted in the Taliban's rise to power in that country after the Soviet Union pulled out.

I'm not saying that I know for a certainty that Kerry would do better. I don't know that.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 01:06 PM

goes on a bit this thread, don't it....

let us consider the semantics of this question. The asshole (not the actual ass) is a useful orifice for the disposal of waste products and on occasions sexual gratification.

Now then can such an orifice be said to have an attitude, one such as arrogance. I rest my case , why the whole thing is a nonsense

If you are still worried about the upcoming election, I think I can tell you (from experience) that the bloke you vote for is probabbly all right, and even if he doesn't win, he should have done.

I hope this sets some minds at rest on this difficult question.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 12:35 PM

You misunderstand the circumstances in the War of 1812, Old Guy. It wasn't that the British "came back" again...it was that a bunch of glory-seeking American politicians decided the time was ripe to add Canada (British North America) to the territory of the USA. They did not succeed. We British whupped YOU guys...every single time you attempted to invade Canada in that war. The proof of that is that Canada still exists as an independent country. We also went down to Washington and burnt down the White House in that war. The USA won some small naval battles, and the British won some small naval battles here and there. The British Navy pretty much cleaned the US merchant marine off the oceans for a bit there, but Oliver Hazard Perry did quite well for the USA in the naval combat on the Great Lakes. The final battle of the War of 1812-14 occurred at New Orleans, after the war was already officially over! (but the combatants had not gotten the news yet...) Andrew Jackson did win that one. Because it is really the only very significant land battle that the USA managed to win in that fiasco of a war, your historians have clung to it as a sort of pathetic fig leaf to stick over the naked fact that the War of 1812 was a complete failure for the USA...it failed in its main and only strategic objective, which was to occupy Canada and add it to the territory of the USA. The only British objective in that war was to defend Canada and retaliate against the American attacks. They did that most successfully. The attacks on Washington and New Orleans were not an attempt to occupy the USA, they were raids conducted by Britain because Britain had a dominant navy and could raid wherever the hell they wanted to in order to tie up and trouble the American forces. After we burned Washington, we got back on the ships and sailed away....so obviously we were not there to occupy the USA or conquer it.

The War of 1812 was launched by the USA, hoping to take advantage of an England which was perceived as being tied down in Europe and ripe for the picking (of Canada). That war failed in its objectives. Your politicians and historians are simply not honest enough to dream of telling your schoolchildren the sorry truth about it, so they cling to a useless victory that happened after the war was officially over, because it's the only frigging significant victory they could salvage out of that war!

Given the fact that you were brought up in the American school system, I'm not surprised your awareness of the War of 1812 is...somewhat limited. I was in the American school system between age 10 and 19. I have never seen such a lopsided barrage of self-serving propaganda in my life.

You see, there's a problem here. You've got the idea that the USA is the victim here, that it is the USA that's under attack. Not so! The USA was not under attack in 1812, the USA was the aggressor, seeking to gain land to the north. The USA was not under attack by Iraq either in 2003, the USA was the aggressor, seeking to gain oil...and personal revenge for George Bush on "the guy who tried to kill my dad".

Most of the terrorists in the World today are an aftereffect of 3 basic things:

a) aggressive American empire-building
b) aggressive Russian empire-building
c) aggressive Israeli land-grabbing

You have got the wrong idea, Old Guy, about who threw the first stone in every one of those conflicts and about who the real injured parties are. Americans are not the injured party....they are the party that dominates, robs, and terrorizes the World with weapons of mass destruction while spouting hackneyed platitudes that hardly anyone believes anymore about "freedom" and "liberty" and other stuff that they think they invented or something.

It's just pathetic. Wake up and take responsibility, for God's sake. The USA's actions have created most of the World's most dangerous terrorists as a direct result of its own intervention in other people's lives all over the World. The USA is Doctor Frankenstein, now being menaced by the very monster he himself created in the first place.

You guys ARE the number 1 terrorists (your government is, I mean, not your private citizens...your private citizens are just ordinary, decent people who have been badly misinformed).

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 10:51 AM

People want to talk war. George Washington retreated in some battles but won the war. He did not end the war and suddenly have the British leave. As a matter of fact the British came back later on in another war and Andy Jackson whupped them again. Then they left us alone.

I have great respect for JFK because he faced down the Soviets in Cuba. The Soviets ran away to fight another day but who won in the end?

There have been people the thought they could win but lost anyway. Has the inverse ever happened? Believing you can win is the most important element to winning a war but it is not the only element. How can an anti-war president win a war?

What kind of message does this can't win mind set send to the terrorists?
"Attention terrorists: The American people believe they can't win this war. Just keep fighting and we will give up. Come to Iraq and help us loose."

What kind of message does it send to Americans and their allies fighting and dying in Iraq?
"Attention Americans and allies: You can't win this war. Keep on fighting and dying though because China, Russia, Germany and France are coming to help."

What kind of message does it send to Iran and Syria?
"Attention Syria and Iran: You have America and the allies where you wanted them. Saddam is gone but they cannot stabilize the country and form a new democratic government because they lack the determination. Keep sending money (that was skimmed off of the Oil For Food program), weapons , explosives and jihadists to feed the insurgency. Soon the Anti-war element in America will prevail over the pro-war element and they will leave. It worked in Viet Nam and it will work here. They will give up you will have a civil war. Then Iraq can be divided up. The west for Syria (sunni), the east for Iran (shia) and the north for the Kurds and Kurdistan. Baghdad will be a never ending battle ground like Jerusalem."

What kind of message does it send to the people in Iraq?
"Attention people of Iraq: Those of you who want a free democratic country are not going to get it because the American people believe it is not possible. Do not bother to help defeating the insurgency because it is a waste of time"

The present enemy is adept at using the press and the news to their advantage. They tape the beheadings and so forth to wear down our resistance like brain washing. People automatically look at the bad things that over shadow the good things. Then the terrorists achieve their objective. They win, we loose. If we admit defeat and give in to their demands it tells them their methods are working. How many beheadings will this cause down the road?

I would not be surprised it terrorists are watching this discussion board and others in order to gage the determination of the American people. What do you think their reaction is when they read "We can't win". It is the same reaction the North Vietnamese had when they heard Kerry's anti-war testimony.

This defeatist attitude has not done any good for anyone at any time. If you think we are all doomed, here, drink this Kool Aid and end it all.

I could be wrong about all of this.

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Oct 04 - 12:02 AM

George Washington's greatest strength as a General in the Revolutionary War was in knowing when to retreat. He actually didn't win all that many battles. He just knew how to preserve his forces long enough to outlast his enemy by running away.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: GUEST,Denny
Date: 08 Oct 04 - 11:49 PM

What the world fears that the USA will do next will be to return your current leaders to office. It is indeed dangerous to have moronic arseholes like Bush and Cheney in such powerful positions. You have about 300 million citizens to choose from . You were able to put men on the Moon and rovers on Mars. You have a great country with many, many fine minds. Now I ask:
"Where in hell did you find these two twirps?"

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Oct 04 - 11:25 PM

Yes, Old Guy, I understand your position.

You said: "You sure as hell can't win when you believe you can't win. Ask George Washington. Did you know that in that day and time people who undermined the government were charged with sedition?"

Uh-huh. But it's all very subjective. It depends who's looking and from what angle. It depends whether you believe a war is necessary or even right in the first place. I don't think this Iraq war was either necessary or right. If I did believe it was both necessary and right for the USA to be in Iraq, then of course I would support staying and "winning" (if I thought it was possible to win).

Now, consider this: Hitler thought he could win in World War II. Tojo thought he could win also. The British in 1775-1779 DEFINITELY thought they could win (when had they ever lost before?)! Hitler, Tojo, and the British did not favour pessimism, defeatism, or appeasement....and they still LOST anyway.

Do you understand why I smile a little when I hear people say "you can't win when you believe you can't win"? The pages of history are littered with people who espoused the totally determined attitude you are recommending...and still LOST.

On the other hand, Castro never doubted he could win the Cuban revolution, despite being hugely outnumbered at the beginning, heavily outgunned, and in exile in Mexico. He still won! (this would appear, ironically, to support your statement, but I imagine you don't like Castro).

You see, your line of reasoning is totally arbitrary...it works when it works, it doesn't when it doesn't. It's not a rule that actually means a darned thing. It's just a convenient form of rhetoric when you don't want to admit something has turned out to be a bad idea...or when you are afraid to show "weakness".

People who insist on hanging in there on what is a bad idea are just people who end up looking like even bigger losers when their bubble finally bursts.

If you think opposing a war is sedition, then you are in complete agreement with people like Hitler, Tojo, Churchill, Stalin, FDR, Castro, Mao Tse Tung...hell, every national leader prefers not to hear anti-war talk when he's fighting a war. :-) Naturally. This, however, was not a war of self-defence the USA fought in Iraq, it was a war of choice by the USA against a desperately weak opponent who was no real threat at all.

For loyal Americans to automatically support a war of choice which most of the World opposed...tell me how that is different from Germans in 1939 supporting a war of choice against Poland, which most of the World opposed? How is it different?

I know how it's different to you. You subjectively believe that the USA is "good" and it's only defending itself by launching that war of choice.

Germans in 1939 believed that Germany was good and was only defending itself by attacking Poland. They DID believe that. They were wrong. They had been fooled.

Thank your lucky stars that your country has not yet gone far enough down the road to hell that its free citizens cannot still openly question and oppose a war that they think is a bad idea. Would you prefer that they be arrested, imprisoned, or shot for opposing this war? Watch it. You may get what you wish for...enforced consensus at the point of a gun.

Like I said, it's all subjective. You will naturally support those whom you think are the "good guys". You and I just honestly have a difference of perception about who the good guys are. You see America defending itself against terrorists. I see a bunch of huge energy corporations securing vital oil resources by lying to you and every other American citizen about what they are really up to.

One of us is wrong.

Well, it's not a crime to be wrong, but it was a crime on the part of the USA to launch a phony pre-emptive war against a small country that was already so militarily weakened by previous war and sanctions that it could not effectively fight a war against anyone, let alone against the USA. It's just ridiculous. It's as ridiculous as Hitler's phony propaganda in 1939 that had German citizens convinced Poland had to be "taken out" to protect German citizens! And they believed it!

And Hitler did not cave in...or give way to pessimism...or listen to the naysayers. No sir. He went the distance. Is this then a sign of character...or is it a sign of blindness? Arrogance? Inability to face reality? Fear to admit to weakness or error?

When people win, they are praised for having shown such stubbornness. When they lose, they are eternally damned by it.

Thus falls the subjective judgement of history on leaders who win...and leaders who lose the wars of aggression they freely launch.

For once, try to see the other guy in your shoes...and then tell Moktada al Sadr or Osama Bin Laden the same thing: "You sure as hell can't win when you believe you can't win." They too believe they can win. Are they to be praised for it? Are those who voice doubts against their belief seditious?

The other guy, Old Man, is the same as you. He too, believes in his heart that he is defending what is right, good, and true.

I say: what is right is NOT to attack other people by choice, NEVER to attack other people by choice, NOT to launch wars upon other nations and occupy their land. Because every human being is as valuable as any other human being in the sight of God. Every nation's territory is inviolate and should not be invaded. Americans are not more valuable than Iraqis. Americans just have more money and bigger weapons.

Do you think the World feared Iraq in 2003? Ha! The World fears the USA. The World fears what the USA will do next.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 08 Oct 04 - 09:03 PM

Little Hawk:

You sure as hell can't win when you believe you can't win. Ask George Washington. Did you know that in that day and time people who undermined the government were charged with sedition?
"The Alien and Sedition Acts granted the federal government unprecedented power to infringe upon the liberty of individuals."
http://www.sparknotes.com/testprep/books/sat2/history/chapter7section3.rhtml

If you read a little higer up you will see that I also dispise the two party system but right now we have no other choice but to pick a candidate and vote. I decide which candidate I like the best. I tend to think less of a wishy washy gloom and doom candidate with perfect vision in the rearview mirror that accuses the opposition of lying. I tend to think more of an upbeat humble candidate

There are and were democrats and republicans That I like. Read upward. Everybody should be able to go with whom they like and not who their "Gang" tells them to support.

All of this is subject to correction.

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Oct 04 - 08:30 PM

Are you ignoring me because, since I despise both the Democratic AND Republican parties, you feel I'm not partisan enough for this discussion? :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 08 Oct 04 - 08:07 PM

Nerd:

I was told to keep it short. Is it too short now? Please specify the correct length.

As requested, the link is there so you can read the entire story about how he worked for Saddam. http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=Ayad_Allawi

Where did I imply that he did not work for Saddam?

I am trying to illustrate that he is not a Saddam Loyalist.

Have you been getting enough fiber in your diet?

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Nerd
Date: 08 Oct 04 - 04:51 PM

Just to point out, Old Guy, you are distorting yet again. You use the following quote:

"Iraqi secret police were sent to assassinate Allawi in London in 1978, bursting into his bedroom and hacking him with an ax. He suffered serious injuries and spent nearly a year in a hospital. He continues to walk with a limp because of injuries to his leg suffered in the attack."

to suggest that Allawi did not work for Saddam. In fact, by many accounts he was "hit" because he was a wayward agent of Saddam's secret police.

Here's a more complete quote:

Allawi was an active supporter of the Iraqi Ba'ath Party in its early days when it was still banned. In 1971, he moved to London in order to continue his medical education. Some have reported this as an exile, but some of Allawi's old counterparts have claimed that he continued to serve the Baath Party, and the Iraqi secret police, searching out enemies of the regime. During this time he was president of the Iraqi Student Union in Europe. Seymour Hersh quotes former CIA officer Vincent Cannistraro: "[...] Allawi has blood on his hands from his days in London [...] he was a paid Mukhabarat agent for the Iraqis, and he was involved in dirty stuff." A Middle Eastern diplomat confirmed that Allawi was involved with a Mukhabarat "hit team" that killed Baath Party dissenters in Europe. However, he resigned from the Baath party for undisclosed reasons in 1975. [1] (http://www.newyorker.com/fact/content/?040628fa_fact)

At first Saddam, then Iraq's deputy president, pressured Allawi, who was in contact with senior military and party officers that were increasingly critical of Saddam, to rejoin Ba'ath. In 1978, friends told Allawi that his name was on a liquidation list. In February 1978 Allawi was awoken in bed one night by an intruder in his Surrey home, who proceeded to attack him with an axe. The intruder left, convinced that Allawi was dead. He survived the attempted murder, and spent the next year in hospital recovering from his injuries. It
is presumed that the attack was an assassination attempt ordered by Saddam Hussein. [2]

So we should be happy that he is president because he, like so many other brutal agents of the Ba'ath secret police, were targeted by Saddam? I don't think so.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 08 Oct 04 - 01:00 AM

"Iraqi secret police were sent to assassinate Allawi in London in 1978, bursting into his bedroom and hacking him with an ax. He suffered serious injuries and spent nearly a year in a hospital. He continues to walk with a limp because of injuries to his leg suffered in the attack."
http://www.disinfopedia.org/wiki.phtml?title=Ayad_Allawi

"Baghdad, As-Sabah, Sep7 , p.1
Hundreds of demonstrators have gathered in front of the Iraqi government headquarters to demonstrate against violence and show support to Dr. Ayad Alawi government.The demonstrators urged the international community to demand the neighboring countries not to interfere in the Iraqi affairs.A record fifty civil society organizations, trade unions and women organizations took part in the demonstration."
"Baghdad, As-Sabah, Sep7 , p.3
German Company Heidelberg has expressed readiness to supply Baghdad University with a modern printing machine as a gift, sources at the university announced.In a statement to As-Sabah, Coordination and Follow-up Director General at the University Dr. Mohammed Al-Etabi said the German government will bear the costs of sending and installing the printing machine, pointing out that final touches for implementing this project have been put during contacts held with the said company.He said that the machine is a very developed one that could produce twenty million books annually, adding that the university is in need of such machine to print curriculum books, the student's guide and books in all fields. "
http://www.alsabaah.com/20040907/english.htm

"She came to Cleveland Wednesday, she said, to do what she can to ensure Americans see her view of the war.
For the first time, drinkable water flows from the kitchen faucet, her three children attend a decent school, and market bins brim with products she'd never seen: cell phones, bananas and Pepsi.
I say to the U.S. Army, Thank you very much,' " said al-Fadhal, a bubbly, round-faced woman with a shy smile. "For they put their lives on the line to give us this."
http://www.cleveland.com/news/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/cuyahoga/1096537051218231.xml

"Al-Fadhal and Baban insisted that much of the unrest in Iraq today is being instigated by outsiders, including al-Qaida operatives.
Al-Fadhal lamented that much of what the world sees are her country's continuing problems.
"You don't see the good," she said. "Yes, there is terrorism, violence and bombs, but we can send our children to school. A teacher who was paid $5 a month under Saddam gets $400 a month. A child care worker who got $1 a month is paid $50 a month. ... People can go to work. Their lives are going on.
"The security situation is a big problem, but if we can find an answer to it, there will be a lot of good."
In the meantime, she's thankful for U.S. troops.
"We want them to stay. ... I pray to God to return them all safely," Al-Fadhal said."
http://pittsburghlive.com/x/tribune-review/trib/newssummary/s_256300.html

"A wedding boom is under way as salaries rise and the old restrictions no longer apply.
By Dhiya Rasan in Baghdad (ICR No. 82, 06-Sep-04)
"Today I am free, and I will marry the woman I love," declared 28-year-old Baghdad baker Mohammed Abdullah.
Soon came signs that the wedding had taken place: the zaghrouta the traditional ululation of joy sounded from the courtroom, and a shower of chocolates was tossed into the street by Abdullah's relatives.
Abdullah is one of the many Iraqis who have got married in what officials say is a post-war wedding boom brought on by rising salaries and the end of restrictions on marriage imposed by the former regime."
http://www.iwpr.net/index.pl?archive/irq/irq_82_3_eng.txt

"A document discovered by Iraq's interim government details a meeting between the man behind the September 11 attacks and Abu Nidal, the Palestinian terrorist, at his Baghdad training camp. Con Coughlin reports"
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2003/12/14/wterr114.xml

We have a lot of work to do to dispell this pack of lies.

Old Guy

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Oct 04 - 12:22 AM

The USA is not going to "win" the war in Iraq no matter who is president. The war in Iraq is unwinnable. It will continue until foreign troops leave, and it will probably continue after that as well...for some time.

You can always find a fool who justifies further bloodletting on the basis of justifying previous bloodletting...so that "our boys didn't die in vain". Ha! They all die in vain. Every last one of them. Most of the Iraquis who have been killed also died in vain. Perhaps all of them too....but at least they have a real reason to fight!. They're defending their own national sovereignty and their culture against a foreign invader who launched an illegal war over WMD's that did not exist in order to take control of their oil!!!

Every American that ever dies on Iraqi soil WILL die in vain. By definition. You cannot NOT die in vain when you are the tool of an aggressor in an unjust war.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: GUEST,peedeecee
Date: 07 Oct 04 - 11:18 PM

Art Darden, before you knock Kerry for criticizing Allawi's speech, a little research is in order.

1) Find out what Allawi was before the Americans picked him to become Iraq's interim leader. (Hint: he worked for Saddam.)

2) Find out exactly how much of an American hand-picked puppet Allawi actually is. (Hint: 100%.)

3) Find out who wrote the speech that Allawi gave on his visit to the US. (Hint: the White House.)

Don't jump to conclusions before finding out what the truth is -- Allawi is an American tool.

I have no axe to grind here, btw.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 07 Oct 04 - 11:12 PM

Has Mr. Darden bothered to read what Mr. Allawi said to the Iraqis once he was back in Iraq? It sounded a lot like what Kerry has been saying. Go read it for yourself.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Oct 04 - 11:08 PM

"In this era of contentious political campaigns, one becomes almost numb to the spin, the half-truths and the distortions of public records and private information. However, even today, candidates and campaigns can go too far. In my opinion, we have witnessed one of those times.

Last week, Iraqi Prime Minister Ayad Allawi came to address Congress. In his address, he cited the progress and improvements being made jointly by the Iraqis and the Americans. Conspicuous in his absence in the Joint Session of Congress, John Kerry not only failed to meet with Allawi privately; he also took the opportunity in his response to Allawi's speech to call him a puppet and basically accuse the man of lying.

Joe Lockhart, a Kerry campaign spokesman, was quoted as saying, ''You can almost see the hand underneath the shirt today moving the lips.'' How despicable! Allawi was then forced to issue a statement defending himself and his words. Again, despicable.

This makes one want to ask the question, ''Which side are they on?'' ''Are they for our side?'' Then, I realize that they are actually for themselves. It seems as if the quest for power is worth anything, even our failure in Iraq. Allawi is thanking America, and the left seems to be choking on his words.

To the left, it seems as if it would be better for the people of Afghanistan and Iraq to not be liberated than for a Bible-reading conservative from Texas to have done the liberating.

The contempt the Kerry campaign displayed toward Mr. Allawi was utterly deplorable. The idea of trading our success in Iraq for a return to power is much, much worse.

Art Darden"

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Don Firth
Date: 07 Oct 04 - 07:19 PM

I just took another look at the title of this thread.

After watching the Cheney-Edwards debate on Tuesday, then after the release of the Duelfer Report, hearing a news-clip of Bush still insisting that he was "right to take action against Saddam Hussein," I can't think of two more arrogant assholes than George W. Bush and Dick Cheney!

Don Firth

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 Oct 04 - 06:49 PM

I know, Amos. *G*

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: GUEST,Denny
Date: 07 Oct 04 - 04:22 PM

If Bush were elected and were to drop dead ( or was impeached for lying )Cheney would be more than willing to take the helm. NOW THAT WOULD BE A REAL ARROGANT ARSEHOLE !!!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: TIA
Date: 07 Oct 04 - 04:00 PM

And his bluffing was aimed at intimidating Iran - not even the USA!

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Amos
Date: 07 Oct 04 - 02:23 PM

The New York Times presents the argument that Saddam was involved in intentionally bluffing about his WMDs, in order to look strong when he was not.

(It is perfectly understandable that Bush would fall for such a maneuver, being himself guilty of the same practice for the same reason.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Amos
Date: 07 Oct 04 - 01:41 PM

Ebbie:

I think Morticalia is different from MG -- she is a reactionary, robotic, right-wing nutcase who happens to be a sixteen year old girl, parroting the delusions of others.

MG is male.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Ebbie
Date: 07 Oct 04 - 01:13 PM

Morticalia: "He'll tax your asses off to support the crack whores spouting out children in the ghettos, and fuck up the military so that my friends father cannot be honorably discharged like he is supposed to be this summer, he'll allow abortion (a catholic supporting abortion. inconceivable) and allow any knocked-up dipshit to flush her child out. Abortion is only permissible if the mother is in danger or the kid is a product of rape or incest. I think that a doctor (a qualified one, dammit) should have to prove that one of the three aforementioned instances apply, and then, only then, should the mother end the life of the child, and in sanitary, safe conditions. go to www.abortiontv.com, and you'll see what i mean about how bad abortion is. life starts from conception. abortion murders a human being. the mother feels it. the child feels it. and whatever divine force there may be, that force will punish those who condone and participate in abortion.

"anyway, kerry will fuck it all up. even his face makes me wish to do violence against him, that smirking, look-at-me-i'm-so-awesome-please-make-me-require-facial-reconstruction-surgery look that you see so often. argh. i hate him. he'll fuck up this country. mark my words. "

MG, there is a Mudcat rule against taking out TWO membership names. *G*

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Oct 04 - 01:01 PM

The US should eliminate, entirely, the use of the word "win" when describing what we want to accomplish in Iraq. "Succeed" is a word that we can use appropriately but, based on what the Bush administration has used as a major justification for attacking Iraq; the promotion of freedom and democracy for the people of Iraq, the only "winners" in this equation should be the Iraqi people.

Old Guy, you really are a piece of work.

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: Amos
Date: 07 Oct 04 - 12:48 PM

It takes a LOT of gall, Old Guy, to decide that the insanities of this war should be blamed on someone who is opposed to it, or thinks there were serious errors in starting it. The idea that Kerry's more moderate approach is causing insurgency is about as batty as my Aunt Matilda whom we had to keep in an outhouse.

Americans are not dying because somebody with some brains calls bullshit on the warmongers. The warmongers began and fostered the war. Get off it.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Kerry is an arrogant asshole
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Oct 04 - 12:28 PM

he'll allow abortion (a catholic supporting abortion. inconceivable) and allow any knocked-up dipshit to flush her child out

This is already allowed, Morticalia.