History and mythology of WW1

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Jan 16 - 09:47 AM

"Only in 1917, and in Russia, did the people get any say."

Tell me Academic Dave just how they did that? How did THE PEOPLE get a say?

Who compiled the lists that defined who THE PEOPLE were? How long did that take? Who was it that decided the wording of the question to be put to THE PEOPLE? Who ensured that all of THE PEOPLE could read it?

THE PEOPLE in Russia in November 1917 had as much say in what was going on and what would form "Government" Foreign Policy as they had in August 1914 - Please, please, please say that you disagree with that and demonstrate to anybody reading this that you are indeed as naive and stupid as you possibly could be.

By the way THE PEOPLE of Russia/U.S.S.R: have NEVER HAD ANY SAY IN ANYTHING the "Communist Party Elite" as represented by the KGB, The Party and the Army have told THE PEOPLE of Russia what to think, how to act and what to do since the October Revolution of 1917.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jan 16 - 09:23 AM

Any reply to that question of Israeli bookburning yet Bruce?

Help is available for your obsession......get it.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 04 Jan 16 - 08:47 AM

"Good heavens another accusation flung out there without a single instance of such "trivialisation"


You have been trivialising those deaths for the whole of this thread. So has keith with phrases like:

"The price in blood may be high, but appeasing a tyrant will lead to more human misery not less."

When there is no evidence that the German tyrants would have been any different in practice from our own.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jan 16 - 08:40 AM

"Beautifully said!"
Any reply to that question of Israeli bookburning yet Bruce?
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 04 Jan 16 - 08:34 AM

"The people knew and understood the issues, and decided that making a stand was the right thing to do."

The people had no say in the matter. The decisions were taken by the likes of Sir Edward Grey. Only in 1917, and in Russia, did the people get any say.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jan 16 - 07:50 AM

Jom - if you've got a fiddle you could put a tune to that idiotic little rant of yours - and hey presto another whinging ballad.

Beautifully said!

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jan 16 - 07:18 AM

"Jom - if you've got a fiddle you could put a tune to that idiotic little rant of yours "
And if you had any brains you'd be ably to flaw me with one swing of your superior intellect!
But then again - if my Granny'd had balls she have been my grandfather.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Jan 16 - 06:56 AM

Jom - if you've got a fiddle you could put a tune to that idiotic little rant of yours - and hey presto another whinging ballad.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jan 16 - 06:26 AM

"fellow travelers"
Your right wing shit gave us the Holocaust, a King who supported Hitler, and a Royal Family teaching their sprogs to give the Nazi salute, not to mention a Depression, an ongoing series of recessions, mass unemployment, a divided Britain, permanent high employment, an increasing gap between rich and poor, mass homelessness, a non-industrial Britain - and to top it all, a Prime Minister who exposed herself as a fascist by announcing that Pinochet's mass-murdering policies was her idea of democracy.... need I go on?   
Wouldn't be too proud about being right wing, with your political record.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Jan 16 - 04:51 AM

"The thread was a none starter."

Of course it was for you and your fellow travelers Musket. How on earth could any of you possibly even start to discuss or debate what constitute the history of the First World War and the mythology of that conflict - by your own admissions none of you know the simplest thing about it. But as usual your aim has been to mob and bully Keith - sorry chaps but you failed again

"Terribulus & co are the ones who should be apologising for trivialising 17 million deaths as worthwhile and appropriate."

Good heavens another accusation flung out there without a single instance of such "trivialisation" - Standard tactics for those who argue from a background of ignorance and who have to resort to "name-calling", distraction and deflection. Failed again Musket and no examples of this trivialisation will be given.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 04 Jan 16 - 04:40 AM

"The price in blood may be high, but appeasing a tyrant will lead to more human misery not less."
Tyranny had nothing to do with anything Keith - that is wartime propaganda bullshit.
Each Empire represented tyranny to someone somewhere Britain, Germany, Belgium, France, Russia..... had divided the world up between them and the politicians decimated the generations of their youth in order to maintain those divisions.
The war had nothing whatever to do with freedom and economic conditions at home - it was about who would rule who in Africa, Asia, India.... - it was a war to protect colonies.
The Russian people knew that - they got rid of their feudalistic rulers when they had had enough.
The German people the same - they launched a revolution to get rid of the Militaristic mob that took them into war.
The British clamped down on any significant changes that might have taken place, trades Unions, fights for better conditions.
The Women's suffarage movement made some gains because they supported the war (shamefully)
From day one the Left opposed the war as being Imperialist, which was exactly what it was.
It was never a fight for freedom or national liberation - the victors never became any more "free" after the war, despite having made such a massive sacrifice - it took a decade or so before the colonies began to crumble and economically and socially things became worse, unlike WW2, when a leftish government introduced programmes for the improving the lot of the poor - opposed and eventually dismantled by the right.
THe German leadership was no more a threat that our own rulers - they were headed by the same ****** family.
Had the line of accession been different in Britain regarding of male/female rulers, the Kaiser could have been King of England - that's how different they were.
Acession to the throne
Tyranny my arse - jingoistic bullshit!
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jan 16 - 04:36 AM

Doesn't seem to have done Switzerland much harm.

You really know nothing.
Switzerland has always been determined to fight against any invasion.

Germany decided to invade Belgium whether they defended themselves or not.

Open your eyes and your mind and inform yourself of what really happened.
Read a history book and forget your agenda ridden, class war, political tracts.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jan 16 - 04:28 AM

Hitler was not an issue in 1914.

No. It was a different tyrant but still a militarist, imperialist, child murdering regime backed by huge and powerful invading armies.

The people knew and understood the issues, and decided that making a stand was the right thing to do.

You say they were wrong.
The difference between your positions is that they were there and you were not.
They knew what was going on and you have shown yourself to have no idea or understanding at all.

The history books contradict you so what are your opinions based on?
Lies.
You have been duped.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 04 Jan 16 - 04:25 AM

"Interesting strategy that GUEST Dave - Amounts to the response to a naked threat of invasion and annexation is, "OK then we'll not fight you, now go away" - Doubt if that would actually work, don't you?"

Doesn't seem to have done Switzerland much harm.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jan 16 - 04:24 AM

Yes, you a quite right, ake. Not often I say that. In proportion to the loss of 17 million this thread really is trivial. Keith's points are trivial, whatever they were. The silly moderation on here is trivial. Jeri, and many others, know that I can sign in from numerous places, other people can use the same IP address I am using and anyone can block their IP anyway. I will not bother putting myself out over it but I see she has neither deigned to comment on my comments or those Musket has made. I think that says more than any of us can.

This thread was dead ages ago. It is now putrefying.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 04 Jan 16 - 03:54 AM

"WW2 cost 60 million lives, but if the world had lain down its arms and opened its borders to Hitler's armies, the world would be a worse place."

Hitler was not an issue in 1914. And had the 1914 war not been fought the conditions which led to the rise of both Hitler and Stalin would not have arisen, as Jim has pointed out. And possibly Spanish flu into the bargain. So we might now be laying more than 100 million deaths at the door of our refusal to negotiate peace in 1914, and again in 1916.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: GUEST,Musket
Date: 04 Jan 16 - 03:41 AM

Gosh. I must get used to signing autographs. I know who the guest is now!

Needless to say, I don't log in these days. Don't see the point. If any axe murderer, stamp collector or nymphomaniac wants to be called Musket, that's fine by me. I'm bored with the moniker anyway, considering how many are using it now.

IP. Yeah, that's an interesting one. Something the original three of us had in common was the same VPN that enables us to access certain clinical data on our personal phones iPads laptops etc. Having just checked, my IP is the same as yesterday but different to a couple of days ago. Hoopy.

I don't think this is thread drift. The thread was a none starter. Terribulus & co are the ones who should be apologising for trivialising 17 million deaths as worthwhile and appropriate. Makes discussion over an irrelevant lochside dinosaur meaningless. Mind you, presumably he knows now how frustrating it was for McMusket when Akenaton said he was in an open marriage with multiple sexual partners and carrying disease. I have no idea if this is the same person listed in the courts as claimed, but have no sympathy either way.

Luv&hugs

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Jan 16 - 03:29 AM

GUEST - 04 Jan 16 - 03:15 AM

1: You have provided no information regarding Akenaton you have made serious allegations and refused point blank to substantiate them, which in my book renders your smears and allegations baseless

2: You contribute as a "nameless" GUEST and use an IP Blocker because you are basically a coward who does not have guts to stand by the statements you make.

Apologies for thread drift.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jan 16 - 03:15 AM

Just out of interest. I mentioned the information regarding Akenaton in reply to his general hatred and awful attitude on this thread, accusing those who support the evidence behind the thread title of being "beaten" by the jingo merchants. Always nice to get a sense of perspective.

I am not a Musket. I used to post under my own nickname though. Akenaton bleated to moderators over my name.

I, like some others on this thread, are aware that Musket is a real person who devised to share his log in with two others. I am none of the above.

I did however suggest that Jeri pop and put the kettle on, and in another thread Jeri called me Musket.

I assume Musket must be laughing his head off, although reading his comments on this thread, I get the impression he thinks the subject title too serious to take too lightly.

Oh, as Akenaton knows my wife is a greyhound trainer, it's the Sheriff Court that acted. The Greyhound Board of Great Britain has nothing to do with criminal convictions. They decide whether registration can be restored or not after "time spent."

In any case, I use an IP blocker which masks my own IP.   Comes in handy when dwelling in the sewer.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jan 16 - 03:01 AM

The price in blood may be high, but appeasing a tyrant will lead to more human misery not less.

WW2 cost 60 million lives, but if the world had lain down its arms and opened its borders to Hitler's armies, th world would be a worse place.

That was understood in 1914.
The editorial staff of the MG knew and understood the issues, and decided that it was right to make a stand.

Pennel says her research proves that the same is true of the people.
Macmillan says the same.
Also Boot, Sheffield, Todman, Brown, ....
All the historians.

The people were not lied to, you were.
You are the dupes.
You have been duped by the lies and propaganda of hard left political groups, because you have read no history to find the truth.

It is no coincidence that all you people arguing against the hard, researched evidence laid out in the history books are of the far left.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Jan 16 - 02:28 AM

GUEST,Dave - 03 Jan 16 - 04:47 PM

"Yes. Belgium could have "refused to engage" and the Germans would have left them alone."

They might. And they might not. Either of which would have been better than 17 million dead.

Academic Dave, in making the above statement I take it then that you have read nothing about Germany's attack plan for a war against France.

German mobilisation demanded that immediately after mobilisation Luxembourg and Belgium HAD to be invaded otherwise massive bottlenecks would be created.

Pray tell how the Germans avoiding the invasion of Belgium would have prevented the deaths of 17 million people? After all the formal military alliance between France and Russia, between Russia and Serbia and between Germany and the Austro-Hungarian Empire would have still come into play - or had you forgotten all about that - more likely you were completely unaware of their existence.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Jan 16 - 02:16 AM

" they could have refused to engage. There have to be two sides in a fight."

Interesting strategy that GUEST Dave - Amounts to the response to a naked threat of invasion and annexation is, "OK then we'll not fight you, now go away" - Doubt if that would actually work, don't you?

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 04 Jan 16 - 01:58 AM

For anyone even remotely interested, there are a number of very good interviews with ww1 historian Margaret MacMillan on you tube. she is especially interesting on the causes of the war. Perhaps some may learn a few things.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jan 16 - 01:49 AM

How could the Manchester Guardian be "duped?"
They knew what was going on from their own sources.
Like the government they were against Britain entering the war until the very last day.

"The Manchester Guardian had been very strongly opposed to war, and frankly isolationist. No one was more insistent on the need to keep out of a European war than the paper's chief leader writer and deputy editor, CE Montague. But when war was declared, he was so appalled by German perfidy that he enlisted, aged 47, dying his grey hair to conceal his age."

"Once war was declared on 4 August, Scott however swung the Guardian firmly behind the decision, declaring in the next day's paper: "We ourselves have contended for the neutrality of England to the utmost of our power and with a deep conviction that we were doing our patriotic duty …"

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 04 Jan 16 - 01:44 AM

Dave, suggesting that there was anything that Belgium could have done to prevent its invasion, and the massacres of its people, again shows your ignorance of the period.

Your claim that everyone including the left were "duped" shows your ignorance.
(" A series of retrospective myths have built up that suggest ordinary British and Irish people backed the war because they were deluded, brainwashed and naïvely duped into supporting the conflict. My research shows that this was simply not the case."
Dr. Catriona Pennel
http://www.exeter.ac.uk/news/featurednews/title_219199_en.html)

Your claim that people were "lied to about the Germans" shows your ignorance. You could find nothing to support it. You made it up!

The history books contradict you, so what is the source of your knowledge?

You just make things up in the vacuum of your head and claim it has equal worth as a researched history book!

You call yourself an "academic" but you are just a posturing buffoon.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jan 16 - 09:32 PM

Dunno really. I don't know who it is who does the censoring, and shall remain cheerfully incurious. The only time I ever get annoyed with thread deletions or post deletions is when I've just done a bloody great big long one that took me ages, only to see it lost forever to the ether!

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 03 Jan 16 - 09:17 PM

Yes, you are right Steve, they are not all a joke, But one is and it seems to me that moderating from a biased position is not moderating, it is censoring. As to this not being a democracy, true, but that is a whole other issue.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jan 16 - 09:11 PM

Well I don't actually think that all moderation here is a joke. At least one moderator here does a good job, and another, once he leaves his religion behind, is fine, even though he pretends he isn't really a moderator. But this one generally wades in with negative comments about the usual suspects, etc., and, were moderatorship a paid post, one might surmise that her interventions were thoroughly unprofessional. As I keep saying, this is not a democracy, nor is it real life. But that doesn't mean that it's OK to sit here being compared to the denizen of a septic tank, etc., in the same post as her crowing about her deleting prowess. That's just bloody annoying is that. Infra dig, as they say.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 03 Jan 16 - 08:59 PM

I agree withSteveShaw, moderation on this forum is a joke. Nasty shite stays while people who complain about the nastiness have their threads deleted.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jan 16 - 07:28 PM

"I no longer have any idea what your original 3 points were Keith."
"Keith's "original three points" were every single point that has ever been discussed which he was cornered into reducing to three, and has just added another "It was Germany wot did it".
Hurry before he moves the goalposts again.
"both you and Keith have been severely provoked."
Both of these people have lied consistently about their own position and about what others have said - that's what I call provocation.
I do wish people would keep out gratuitous personal attacks though It's neither clever nor helpful.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jan 16 - 06:53 PM

This is not about defending the behaviour of fellow travellers. It is about expressing disappointment about, irritation with and profound contempt for a so-called moderator who pontificates about her thread-closing powers whilst, in the same post, is "wittily" equating posters who she won't actually name with residents of a septic tank. Why, anytime soon, she'll almost certainly indulge in the ultimate irony of condemning "personal attacks."

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jan 16 - 06:20 PM

Dave, get a sense of proportion.

He's another member of the braying pack trying to defend the despicable posts of his fellow traveler.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Jan 16 - 06:09 PM

Dave, get a sense of proportion.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jan 16 - 06:00 PM

OK then, Jeri. You are happy to name one guest, even though you could be wrong, so who is guest 2nd Jan, 2:58pm then? BTW I do work with high end servers, including web services and security so when I say you could be wrong I do know what I am talking about.

A bit late now but tomorrow as a little demonstration I will post as me from three different places simultaneously, get some else to post from the same IPs and post from a completely untraceable source. Don't operate one rule for some an another for everyone else.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 03 Jan 16 - 05:58 PM

Why I don't close it is that it sort of functions like adult day care... or a septic tank. In any case, it gives people of a certain temperament somewhere to hang out.

If that's your attitude, you are clearly not a fit and proper person to be a moderator. I've suspected that from your overwhelmingly negative attitude here for a long time. This particular post of yours is no better than those of most of those hateful anonymous guests who occasionally plague the place. Still, it's not my gig, and I do enjoy your pointless interventions.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Jan 16 - 05:41 PM

I also know most "guests" from their writing "style" ...or lack of it.
It is quite difficult to disguise ones written work.....ask PFR :0)


Sorry about the drift Keith...apologies.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Jeri
Date: 03 Jan 16 - 05:39 PM

Of course it was Musket. There aren't very many people active in this thread. Why I don't close it is that it sort of functions like adult day care... or a septic tank. In any case, it gives people of a certain temperament somewhere to hang out.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Jan 16 - 05:32 PM

I know this particular specimen from his history Dave....as do the moderators. He is a stalker which is a criminal offence, as is saying that I have a criminal record for abuse of animals. A complete fabrication.

However, the regulatory boards address has been made available to the stalker. He can either put up or shut up.

It is annoying that these people infest the forum, but as has been explained to me it is extremely difficult to block unnamed GUEST postings.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jan 16 - 05:07 PM

And you can tell that Guest Date: 03 Jan 16 - 04:41 PM is part of 'Team Musket' while, for instance, Date: 02 Jan 16 - 02:58 PM, is not. How can you do that then, ake? Do you have access to the IP addresses of all the posters? Are you a moderator? Come on, tell us how you do it. Is it the same as you can tell that a gang of criminals is foreign just by looking at them? Your omniscience astounds me...

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Jan 16 - 04:54 PM

The post of 3Jan 16....is a typical example of what I am talking about.
Have you found any proof of these disgusting allegations?
The appropriate body which deals with such matters is "the Greyhound board of Great Britain", 6 New Bridge Street, London.

I look forward to your apology.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 03 Jan 16 - 04:47 PM

"Yes. Belgium could have "refused to engage" and the Germans would have left them alone."

They might. And they might not. Either of which would have been better than 17 million dead.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jan 16 - 04:41 PM

Has the court given you a date by which you are allowed to keep dogs again Alex?

Stop telling lies eh? There's a good creature.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: akenaton
Date: 03 Jan 16 - 04:07 PM

perfectly correct Mr T, "Team Musket" was formed(by their own admission), to personally insult and confuse debate, they have stooped to every low blow in the book, insult, libel, outright lies, stalking, death wishes, intimidation using ones family, attempts to wreck debate when they have run out of anything sensible to say...which happens pretty quickly.

In all the years we have argued and debated here we have mostly held differing views on politics, but you have never been abusive unless provoked.....and on this particular issue, both you and Keith have been severely provoked.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 03 Jan 16 - 03:43 PM

I no longer have any idea what your original 3 points were Keith. I did ask earlier but you declined to comment. For my sake and for that of anyone who did not know in the first place, what were they?

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jan 16 - 03:25 PM

The Guardian represented the 'soft Left' of Britain - even so, it stuck out against the war till the last minute and the editor considered resigning
The left throughout Europe opposed th war totally - The Bolsheviks won power because of just that - the Mensheviks (Liberal Democrat Majority) insisted on the troops returning to the front to finish the war and then confirming the revolution.
Trotsy, as Bolshevik representative, went to Brest Litovsk, stuck his feet on the table and declared "neither war nor peace", insisting that the war end and revolution should begin throughout Europe - that was the stance of The International, the group that represented the genuine left in Europe.
The fact that the German Left immediately entered into revolution and nearly won proved that the war need never have happened as a significant majority of the German people were against it.
Had this ben successful neither Stalin nor Hitler would never have been issues - both were products of the failures of WW1.
Go read a book instead of scrabbling around for cut-'n-pastes for ****'* sake.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: GUEST,Dave
Date: 03 Jan 16 - 03:23 PM

"That all came to an end when the ultimatum was refused and the Left, like everyone else, put their efforts and support into the war."

For all the good it did them, for at the end of the war things went back to the way they had been, and the cause of the working people was advanced not one iota. So yes, the left were duped the same as everyone else, into fighting and dying to maintain the privileges of the wealthy.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jan 16 - 03:06 PM

From Jim's link,
"Once war was declared on 4 August, Scott however swung the Guardian firmly behind the decision, declaring in the next day's paper: "We ourselves have contended for the neutrality of England to the utmost of our power and with a deep conviction that we were doing our patriotic duty … Some time the responsibility for one of the greatest errors in our history will have to be fixed, but that time is not now. Now there is nothing for Englishmen to do but to stand together and help by every means in their power to the attainment of our common object – an early and decisive victory over Germany."

it in no way represented Left opinion
All through 1914 Britain had been riven by industrial disputes, strikes and civil unrest.
That all came to an end when the ultimatum was refused and the Left, like everyone else, put there efforts and support into the war.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jan 16 - 03:02 PM

"You really have no idea about that period at all Dave."
Neither have you - as you have just shown
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 03 Jan 16 - 02:57 PM

Yes there is, they could have refused to engage. There have to be two sides in a fight.

Yes. Belgium could have "refused to engage" and the Germans would have left them alone.

You really have no idea about that period at all Dave.

Subject: RE: History and mythology of WW1
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 03 Jan 16 - 02:09 PM

"Nope Jom - just plain simple statement of FACT "
Oh dear - still - "he started it first Sir"
Your abusive and insulting behavior has been a factor for as long as I can remember.

"The Manchester Guardian had been very strongly opposed to war,"
The Manchester Guardian, like your previous claims of The Daily Mirror and The Guardian on other threads, spoke for nobody but itself - it in no way represented Left opinion But even so .

Jim Carroll