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BS: Matter and Spirit
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: GUEST,Ooh-Aah Date: 17 Aug 04 - 05:20 AM Sooo... no takers for this ready cash then. If Mr Randi is such an egotistical person, wipe the smile off his face by taking the money off him! His ego is beside the point of course - a classic case of attacking the man not the ball. Go in there and do the tests. OK, if you're not the healer and something else is, this other thing is not going to desert you simply because you're in a test situation - don't forget that you agree on the form the test will take. No-one will do the test because you know perfectly well, in some well-repressed cupboard of your mind, that this paranormal stuff is baloney. If not, why not? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Bill D Date: 16 Aug 04 - 10:49 PM well, I'm gonna take that as a compliment *grin*, even if it does |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Amos Date: 16 Aug 04 - 04:29 PM Well having at least refreshed my clarity on the definition of a relaxation oscillator I am moved to repeat my earlier objection, PP, but to save storage just consider it done! A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Little Hawk Date: 16 Aug 04 - 03:41 PM I think of you as being pretty highly developed spiritually, Bill. You just don't express it necessarily in the same words that I would. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Amos Date: 16 Aug 04 - 03:33 PM Pied Piper, You raise a very interesting point about "relaxation oscillators" about which I unfortunately know very little. However, the fundamental which I still see as an error is the attribution to that network -- analog or binary -- of certain capabilities which (imho) can't really come from wetware, no matter how coupled, including awareness itself, intent, understanding, and the ability to consciously be. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Bill D Date: 16 Aug 04 - 01:24 PM "....because the morally responsible atheist is far better tuned into higher purpose, whether he identifies it as that or not." well, I guess I get a 7.046 out of 10 in your ranking, LH...that ain't bad! *grin* we seem to agree on certain premises, but diverge on the interpretaion & implications. "... how do we go about expressing it?"....I see no need to even USE words like God and "higher purpose" when I have no idea what they might refer to except circular linguistic references. I see amazing things in the universe, and I am in total awe at the complexity of it all and wish I could live a million years to see what we might learn..(and meet 'others' from "out there"=no fair you having all the fun!)...but I have this deep reluctance to assume much about any ultimate meaning or causality. de gustibus non disputandem est |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Little Hawk Date: 16 Aug 04 - 12:48 PM You raise a very useful point there, Bill, when you say: "well... why is it necessary to have meaning beyond our own subjective interpretation? If we GIVE it meaning, it HAS meaning. I believe in the values of truth, beauty, sharing, loving, caring, learning, ..and a few more...but I have no notion that these are anything but relative values which I/we superimpose on experience. I believe that the opposites of those values are in the LONG view self-defeating. Of course, some derive different opinions from short-term views...stealing, lying..etc.." Exactly! That is the wonder of free will, and the ability to impart meaning to what would otherwise be meaningless...and that is an ability derived from consciousness, and consciousness is an aspect of spirit. The relative values which we superimpose on experience are created and used BY us in a beautifully intelligent and meaningful manner....or in same cases, NOT so intelligent...as in the case of the thief, liar, etc...but still intelligent on a certain level...a level of thinking which says, "Only my needs matter". Do you see that we are using God-like abilities to give meaning to the World around us? We are God, Bill, all of us. We are God embodied in an apparently separate and limited being. If that limited being fails to see the commonality of spirit in the other limited beings around it, and thinks that ITS survival is all that matters, then it becomes what we term "immoral" or "amoral" in its actions. In so doing, it is demonstrating the limits of its own understanding. People who see themselves in others, and thereby respect and care for others are far more helpful and responsible. These are the spiritual challenges of masquerading as a limited being in an enormous field of opportunity/threat...which we call the World or the Universe. You are God embodied, Bill. So am I. So is the skeptical Guest, and so is everyone else. Only question is, how do we go about expressing it? Are we conscious of higher purpose, partially conscious of it, or wholly ignorant of it? I would rather deal with a morally responsible atheist than a morally irresponsible religious nut any time...because the morally responsible atheist is far better tuned into higher purpose, whether he identifies it as that or not. Most of all, I enjoy dealing with a morally responsible person who IS keenly aware of spiritual purpose. As for these skeptics who offer prizes, like the Unamazing Randi, they are just laughable in their desperate need for attention and ego justification. They remind me of J. Jonah Jamieson. :-) Their perfect mental counterparts are people who think Eve was made out of Adam's rib...and those are the people they ought to spend their time debating with uselessly. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Pied Piper Date: 16 Aug 04 - 11:27 AM To see the brain, as a series of convoluted binary switches is incorrect the Brain (or more correctly a large parts of it) consists of a vast number of coupled Relaxation Oscillators with continuous properties that lead to emergent temporal behaviour. Even simple systems of 2 coupled relaxation oscillators can produce complex chaotic behaviour. I think the Brain starts to build these systems under the guidance of the consciousness into models of the behaviour of external systems as soon as we are born, and probably before. You only have to watch toddlers to see how unstoppably they pursue knowledge of the world through empirical observation hypothesis formation and experimental testing. Of cause this brings us to the subject of consciousness, but I think that should have it's own thread. PP |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Two_bears Date: 16 Aug 04 - 07:12 AM Isn't it, "Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result." ? You're correct LH. If any of you new-age/mystical crystal-gazing types are interested, the Australian Sceptics Society is offering A$100,000 for anyone who can prove their claims under test conditions. After all the miracle cures (ha! ha! ha!) we were told about earlier in this thread, this should be a piece of cake. For the Americans out there I'm sure YOUR sceptics have a similar reward in real money. Let's see you back up your words with actions. Ooh Aah: You obviously do not understand metaphysics and healers. I have explained this many times. We "healers" are NOT the healers. The "Healer" only supplies the energy surcharge to get the healing process started. The healing is done by the higher powers, and the healee's sub conscious mind (willing to be be healed). ANL - 2B |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Pied Piper Date: 16 Aug 04 - 06:13 AM Yes Mr Randi that consummate wielder of Occam's chainsaw has 1 million Dollars up for the takingEasy money?. Scrape some plack of your teeth and say hallo you and the Bacteria that form it have a common ancestor, some 2 billion yearsish ago. PP |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: GUEST,Ooh-Aah Date: 16 Aug 04 - 03:56 AM If any of you new-age/mystical crystal-gazing types are interested, the Australian Sceptics Society is offering A$100,000 for anyone who can prove their claims under test conditions. After all the miracle cures (ha! ha! ha!) we were told about earlier in this thread, this should be a piece of cake. For the Americans out there I'm sure YOUR sceptics have a similar reward in real money. Let's see you back up your words with actions. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Bill D Date: 16 Aug 04 - 12:24 AM "Okay...so what's the reason for it all? Or is it meaningless? If so, where does that leave us?" well... why is it necessary to have meaning beyond our own subjective interpretation? It we GIVE it meaning, it HAS meaning. I believe in the values of truth, beauty, sharing, loving, caring, learning, ..and a few more...but I have no notion that these are anything but relative values which I/we superimpose on experience. I believe that the opposites of those values are in the LONG view self-defeating. Of course, some derive different opinions from short-term views...stealing, lying..etc.. I believe that it is possible, alá Kant, to demonstrate the logic of 'good' as an end-in-itself...but I see no 'meaning' in the universe as a whole. The universe doesn't care what we do, think or create....(I have about 3 hours of long-winded RT explanation of all this over a beer or three sometime..*grin*)(I had a philosophy prof in college who couldn't adapt to rigid limits on class time...he had this web of connections in his head, and purely resented having them interrupted by bells and schedules--I finally appreciate what he went thru!) Amos-...ok, I get the general drift...I'm open to PMs if you wanna elaborate. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: JennyO Date: 15 Aug 04 - 11:46 PM OOPS! I think my brain needs airing. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Little Hawk Date: 15 Aug 04 - 11:28 PM Isn't it, "Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result." ? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: JennyO Date: 15 Aug 04 - 11:26 PM "Remembering the past does not preclude you from repeating it anyway." Bill D, your quote reminds me of one I heard - "Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting the same result." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Amos Date: 15 Aug 04 - 11:20 PM Bill: I believe I have other evidence which if it is okay with you I won't go into here, but which extends considerably further than "not liking" the merchaistic version. I only said "possibly"; to be polite and allow the idea to be approached by the open-minded. The problem with the word spirit is that it gets contaminated by various practices who load it up with their own semantics. I find substantive evidence that regardless of all the semantics, an individual is more than and different from his body, and to decide thebody is the source of thought is parallel to assuming that the intelligence in driving comes from the car (just because the driver occasionally is found inside). A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Little Hawk Date: 15 Aug 04 - 10:44 PM Okay...so what's the reason for it all? Or is it meaningless? If so, where does that leave us? I derive strength from the fact that it's not meaningless. Life, I mean. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Bill D Date: 15 Aug 04 - 10:40 PM LH...we posted at the same time, or I would have tossed in comments about your metaphors..*grin* "...active intelligence of your spirit coursing.." is a concept...I know what you mean, I just don't know that it MEANS anything ....beyond the metaphor. The radio metaphor is easy...the bio-chemical switches might just be the 'broadcast' and the brain the transmitter, with the mouth..etc..the speakers. The major difference between us is that I am satisfied not having a statement that there IS some universal force/spirit/power enervating the process, while you state it as though it is a given....*shrug*.... Is that YOUR eyes I see at the other end of that telescope?...wow, it's tiny! *grin* |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Bill D Date: 15 Aug 04 - 10:03 PM "...ability, intention and the source of thought are possibly of a different order " the crucial word there being "possibly"....it remains to be seen if we can postulate such a 'different order' with no other basis than not liking its opposite....*smile*. There is, of course, the theory that a series of bio-chemical switches of enough complexity DO comprise all there is of human behavior. I do not 'like' that idea any more than you do, and I MUST act as though I have 'free will' or 'spirit'...(or whatever)...but IF there is something acting independantly of complex brain function, we don't know what that might be yet. (My 1/3 finished Masters thesis was supposed to be on the possibility of resolving this dilema thru something like A.N. Whitehead's metaphysics.) It may be just that 'spirit' is too loaded a word to use comfortably, and that we are debating will-o-the-wisps of language....it has happened before. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Little Hawk Date: 15 Aug 04 - 10:03 PM 42 - Don't hold your breath on that one! :-) Nothing is so adamant and offensive as sheer ignorance confronted by a new idea. Bill - You'll find I agree with Amos on pretty well all of what he said. Your brain would avail you nothing without the active intelligence of your spirit coursing through it, just as a radio would avail you nothing without a broadcast program to play through it and a purposeful intention to tune in the station, and electricity to power the device. Your spirit is the intelligence, energy, and purpose analagous to those. Your brain is the receiving/transmitting device, and nothing more than that. Wolfgang, however, would probably say it's the other way around, and that the physical brain has given rise TO all those other things I mentioned. Like I said before, one of us is clearly looking through the wrong end of the telescope. Either that, or we're both half right. :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Amos Date: 15 Aug 04 - 09:47 PM Bill: A series of switches, no matter how convoluted, cannot be a true source of an impulse, a communication, a thought; all it can do is act out a reaction or a programmatic predetermined series of steps. The argument that places the brain as the source of human thought likes to believe that the reason we haven't figured out how this happens is just that the switching system is too complex to understand just yet. The notion that ability, intention and the source of thought are possibly of a different order of qualitym not just more complex in quantity, is heretical to the materialist or the mechanist. Nevertheless I believe it is the path of explanation which MOST clarifies the situation. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Bill D Date: 15 Aug 04 - 08:42 PM " I think the miracle of the brain is grossly overestimated compared to the miracle of thought generated by the spirit." I'm not sure I understand the significance of that, Amos.... that is, I don't know what is meant for 'spirit' to generate thought. If your forebearance up there means that you prefer 'brain' to refer to a mass of grey matter, and "spirit" to its processes, that is a reasonable, but not profound distinction. If you mean 'spirit' to refer to some intangible essence that overlays and 'moves' brain processes, it is a more meaningful, but debatable, distinction. (I retyped that about 4 times, trying to word it clearly.) It's a funny thing about language....sometimes, when we **name** something, we seem to think it is automatically endowed with existence. I have met folks who treated Kant's TUPA (the Transcendental Unity of Pure Apperception) as some sort of entity...and a couple who thought one could perform Husserl's "Eidetic Reduction" as though singing a song. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Bill D Date: 15 Aug 04 - 08:24 PM "Remembering the past does not preclude you from repeating it anyway." Bill D (I just invented that one) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Amos Date: 15 Aug 04 - 04:36 PM The man who first coined the insight that tose ignorant of history will be forced to relive it was George Santayana. A few telling excerpts from his writings: "My atheism, like that of Spinoza, is true piety toward the universe and denies only gods fashioned by men in their own image, to be servants of their human interests." On My Friendly Critics," Soliloquies in England, 1922 "Faith in the supernatural is a desparate wager made by man at the lowest ebb of his fortunes." "Supernaturalism," Little Essays, No. 108 "Each religion...necessarily contradicts every other religion, and probably contradicts itself...Religions, like languages, are necessary rivals. What religion a man shall have is a historical accident, quite as much as what language he shall speak. "Supernaturalism," Little Essays, No. 23 "Civilization is perhaps approaching one of those long winters that overtake it from time to time. Romantic Christendom - picturesque, passionate, unhappy episode - may be coming to an end. Such a catastrophe would be no reason for despair." Character and Opinion in the United States. 1920 "Religion is the natural reaction of the imagination when confronted by the difficulties in a truculent world." Atlantic Monthly, 1953 "The Bible is literature, not dogma." Introduction to the Ethics of Spinoza, 1910 "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Amos Date: 15 Aug 04 - 03:44 PM I think the miracle of the brain is grossly overestimated compared to the miracle of thought generated by the spirit. But that's just me, and I have learned not to get too fussy about people who use the word "brain" when they mean mind. Given that remearkable forebearance on my part, :>)....here's a fine quote from the author who first coined the Hundredth Monkey expression: "If the brain were so simple we could understand it, we would be so simple we couldn't." - Lyall Watson, In Philosophy |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Amos Date: 15 Aug 04 - 03:39 PM The original use of the "100th Monkey" term described the fact that in a population of monkeys or sheep, in various examples, a learned trait (washing food before eating it) would be taught by individuals to other individuals, but at a certain point (when enough individuals had acquired that knowledge) it would leap to new individuals without being individually taught -=- they would acquire the behavior as though by wireless transmission, just by subscribing to the species consciousness. In the examples of monkeys, it was reported that when the practice of washing fruit before eating it (to avoid sand in teeth, I suppose) was started up on an island chain, and taught to more and mpre individuals, the behaviour suddenly showed up in the same species on a nearby but separate island without normal transmission between individuals . In the case of sheep it was the learned behavior of rolling across a cattle-grate designed to prevent them from escaping from a pasture. Reportedly this behaviour started in southern England and suddenly began to appear hundreds of miles to the north without any contact between the two sheep populations. I don't recall any assertions in the literature I have read that discusses the impact of such transmissions on inherited traits. As far as I recall, the point being made had to de with the mechanisms of communicating awareness. The concept was popularized (but not originated) by Ken Keyes. Here's an interesting article by Elaine Myers on the topic. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Bill D Date: 15 Aug 04 - 11:58 AM Carol...that IS approximately what I am saying...*smile*..(I'll never master the art of succinct exposition) ....but I don't think Two Bears idea of 'micro-evolution' is the same as what I suggest. He seems to state that species were created at sometime in the past in essentially a finished form, and then change in small ways (growing taller...etc.) This is essentially what Lamarck proposed "The inheritance of acquired characteristics". ("critical mass").... It is this interpretation that has been in disrepute for quite awhile now. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Don Firth Date: 15 Aug 04 - 02:05 AM But GUEST, whether you like it or not, we are still apes (and when I say "we," that includes you). Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: CarolC Date: 14 Aug 04 - 11:15 PM I think what Bill D is saying, Two Bears, is this: Micro Evolution + Micro Evolution + Micro Evolution + Micro Evolution + Micro Evolution + (etc. etc. etc. etc... ) = Macro Evolution (Sorry, Bill, for interpreting your words. But this seemed like a good way to visualize it.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: 42 Date: 14 Aug 04 - 11:09 PM "Oh great more delusional new age shit." From: GUEST Date: 13 Aug 04 - 05:28 PM although I don't have the inclination to comment on the thoughts expressed on this thread, I have read each post with interest. I find the enclosed c&p offensive and hope that this 'guest' will soon evolve into an intelligent life form. j |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Bill D Date: 14 Aug 04 - 09:55 PM There are birds in the Pacific which have been discovered to adapt (as in evolve within a few generations to use different food sources as El Ninó comes and goes and changes the ocean temperatures..(can't remember the details right now)...These birds are not 'teaching' their young, they are physically altering their DNA in small areas. You must understand, Two Bears, that most macro-evolution, as you call it, takes many thousand and even millions of years to make significant changes. We don't just send National Geographic out to take pictures of it. ....and I beg to differ..'critical mass' is just not the correct concept to describe what species like the Japanese Macaques do in learing new behavior. These monkeys are simply learning, like children......but their preceeding evolution equipped them with the more advanded brains necessary to learn this way. Chimps and Bonobos and Orangs..etc. do similar things, because their DNA is over 90% identical to humans!. Several million years ago, there was ONE common ancestor, and anthropologists are honing in on it as fast as they can dig! *grin* DNA lines are being traced and amazing discoveries are being made every day...some DNA lines in the Neanderthals from the Caucasus Mts. are proving that Neanderthals are NOT direct ancestors of humans, but represent a branch of primates that didn't make it......and at the same time, some human DNA has been traced back 20-30 thousand years..(I believe the Basques, in Spain, have some very ancient lines) This stuff IS 'macro-evolution', on a very long scale...we are discovering where we came from, and sadly, it upsets some folks. It is interesting and useful, but what we ARE now is what is really important. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: GUEST Date: 14 Aug 04 - 08:59 PM They are still birds, Donny. When they "evovle" into something else, please let us know. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Don Firth Date: 14 Aug 04 - 04:05 PM There is a case of a species of arctic birds, (arctic frigate birds as I recall), that separated, one group migrating to the east, the other group migrating to the west. Many decades—and generations—later, the two groups met more or less on the other side of the earth (still in the arctic, but approximately 180° of longitude from where they parted company), and there had been sufficient changes (mutations) in the DNA of each group that they could mate, but could produce no offspring. They had become, by definition, different species. Nature experiments all the time. It doesn't take much. It's pretty random, but the mutations that increase an individual's (it always happens in an individual, not in a whole group) chances of surviving to reproduce and pass on the newly modified gene may eventually lead to the emergence of a new species. That's the way it works. Don Firth |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Amos Date: 14 Aug 04 - 02:26 PM Secret Life of Plants by Peter Tompkins and Christopher Bird, Copyright 1973 Published by HarperCollins Publishers Inc. 10 East 53rd Street New York NY USA 10022 ISBN 0-06-091587-0 |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Little Hawk Date: 14 Aug 04 - 01:06 PM Macro evolution will occur when Martin Gibson wakes up one morning consumed with a new desire to avoid offending other Mudcatters at all cost. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Two_bears Date: 14 Aug 04 - 08:28 AM The 100th monkey theory is about social change...learning new skills, not physical change to the DNA. You are leaning dangerously close to the discredited theories of Lamarck there, Two Bears.....It's an easy mistake to make, but it just doesn't work like that. I studied Lamarck and the explanations in 1957-58, and more evidence has been accumulating for almost 50 years since. The 100th monkey theory is about a critical mass being reached and when that critical mass is reached; the other monkeys knowing things that they did not learn directly. You still have not gives ONE example of macro evolution. ANL - 2B |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Bill D Date: 14 Aug 04 - 01:05 AM The 100th monkey theory is about social change...learning new skills, not physical change to the DNA. You are leaning dangerously close to the discredited theories of Lamarck there, Two Bears.....It's an easy mistake to make, but it just doesn't work like that. I studied Lamarck and the explanations in 1957-58, and more evidence has been accumulating for almost 50 years since. I'm too sleepy to type more or link to the details tonight. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Little Hawk Date: 13 Aug 04 - 10:55 PM Jumping? No, I don't really believe in that either, I believe in a gradual series of evolutionary changes in a given species. I mean, it seems more probable. When you've got millions and millions of years to work with you don't have to be in a big hurry, after all. Darwin didn't say people evolved from monkeys. He theorized that they evolved from an ape-like ancestor. Apes are not monkeys. Darwinian evolution is the latest popular scientific theory about the development of species to achieve widespread acceptance. I'm sure it won't be the last. There has never been a human culture that didn't think it had the answers, has there? :-) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Two_bears Date: 13 Aug 04 - 10:48 PM Yes, Bill, I can also recommend "The Holographic Universe". It's a great book to read for both scientifically-minded people and mystics. I am glad you agree with me on "The Holographic Universe". Evolution? It seems clear to me that there is evidence for physical evolution. Most of the spiritual studies I have done suggest to me that there is both spiritual evolution and physical evolution in the world of nature. The two processes accompany one another, LH; I guess you missed it, I stated that *I* believe in micro evolution. It is fact that human beings are getting taller, and more intelegent. I just do not believe in macro ecolution (jumping from one species to another. ANL - 2B |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Little Hawk Date: 13 Aug 04 - 10:30 PM Yes, Bill, I can also recommend "The Holographic Universe". It's a great book to read for both scientifically-minded people and mystics. Evolution? It seems clear to me that there is evidence for physical evolution. Most of the spiritual studies I have done suggest to me that there is both spiritual evolution and physical evolution in the world of nature. The two processes accompany one another, as they must, because it's all one continuum anyway. Did humans evolve from an ape-like ancestor? Possibly. Did they evolve with the help of extraterrestrials who did some genetic tinkering or cross-breeding? Possibly. Was it a combination of both? Possibly. Was it something else? Possibly. I have no final opinion on the matter, but I don't find Darwinian evolution incompatible with having spiritual beliefs, and neither did Darwin! :-) It was minds smaller than his on either side of the fence that chose to wage a battle over the matter (scientific reductionists vs Christian fundamentalists). I think those 2 lots of people deserve each other, frankly, because they think in the same exclusive, narrow-minded fashion. Buddhist and Vedantic teachings recognize that physical evolution occurs in nature, and regard it as part of the spiritual process working its way in the physical world. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Two_bears Date: 13 Aug 04 - 10:27 PM Carol; I just thought of another test that had been done. In this double blind test, a hospital in California that did a lot of heart surgeries was approached to have a test on the power of intention or prayer. the test was that half of the heart patients names were given to the people who would pray for them, and the recepients were NOT aware that they were being prayed for. During the test the people that were prayed for had a lot less complications, and needs less medication. I read of this in one of Larry Dossey's books (an academic, and medical doctor). If memory serves it was in the book "The Power Of Prayer" if memory serves. In the book; he released the data from the test including the name of the hospital, and other details. ANL - 2B |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Two_bears Date: 13 Aug 04 - 10:17 PM I agree that one of the problems with trying to do a test involving my own perceptions of energy would be tricky, although I don't think necessarily impossible. That's why I have proposed an experiment involving plants. There's a woman in Jeffersonton Virginia who does this kind of experimentation. I first discovered the unpleasant reaction I experience around large Genesa crystals while visiting her experimental gardens. Carol: It has already been done. Christopher Bird and a co-Author used scientific methods to work with plants. the book was called "The Secret Life Of Plants". There is another book you should read "The Holographic Universe". ANL - 2B |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Two_bears Date: 13 Aug 04 - 10:13 PM This hits me harder than any of the 'energy' ideas, as I can at least understand why one could accept/believe in them, even if I don't.....but how one species mutates and evolves into others has been not only explained, but demonstrated......there are still monkeys because not all monkeys/apes mutated!...mutation is something that happens to INDIVIDUALS..and thus, their progeny. 50 apes in a group: ONE has a baby with a mutation for 'bigger brain case' or 'better hip joint', and off we go....49 do NOT, and their line remains apes/monkeys. What species has changed to another species. The incident of the moths doesn't wash because the darker moths had always been present. With the soot from the burning coal in europsl the darker moths had camaflauge on the soot covered branches and the lighter colored moths who previously had camoflauge on the trees (sans the soot) (micro evolution) Charles Darwin worked primarily with finches, and he developed the THEORY of evolution based on the way the bills of the finches changed. They changed because the food they ate changed (again micro evolution) The birds were still able to breed between the different sub types. If you believe that one monkey was born with a better skull, hip joint; you have my condolences. Did you ever hear of the 100th monkey theory? Look it up. After a critical mass is reached; ALL of the members of the species "gets it" and they ALL have the new tools when previously they did not know it. Let;s just say that I believe human beings were created (by a Creator, or by aliens messing with our ancestors DNA. No matter what is said here is conjecture that I can not say for certain; so I do not waste time or lifeforce working on problems that can not be solved until someone invents a time machine and goes back in time to observe. Let's just say when I see a tornado go through a junk yard with parts of a 747; and the tornado assembles the 747 bolt by bolt; I will believe in evolution creating something just as complex as the 747 in the junk yard. It is called the mythical lighning strike creating DNA from the primordial ooze. ANL - 2B |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Two_bears Date: 13 Aug 04 - 09:49 PM 2B - there is little doubt others at your workshops will agree with you. You're unlikely to attract people who would not do so. I've been to such workshops (OK, I have to retract that as I really have no idea what yours entails) and have remained completely unnaffected. Hypnotists, psychics, clairvoyants, fortune tellers, homeopaths, healers, polychromatic priests and certain pidgeon fanciers. Apparently, it's my own fault the tricks never seem to come off: I give off 'negative energy' and diminish the power of the guru. Well. Our workshops teach people who and what they really are, and give them the tools to bring the three selves into harmony; so THEY can manifest real miracles in their life; IF they are willing to do the inner work to change the way they think consciously and sub consciouslly. Spiritual technology that does not work for people (who are willing to put it into practise) is pointless. It is a waste of time and effort. It's obvious you guys are never going to give an inch on this. Those 's(k)eptics' on this and other threads like it have stopped short of denouncement (I exclude some rudish guests) because we're actually interested in what it is you ARE doing. Have you ever thought what the ramifications of finding out what's truly going on would be? I did give an inch. I invited you to come as my guest so you can see and experience for yourself. Oh; I know the ramifications of what I am doing in teaching this spiritual technology. People will change the way they think consciously and subconsciously, and people can claim their true potential we were given by the higher powers. By people directing this energy in constructive ways instead of the habitual negative thinking; we can repair the earth's environment and save the planet before humanity destroys itself. By the force of will directing lifeforce energy for the highest good; 1. I have seen a person suffering from whiplash start throwing their extremities via spasms as the injured nerves, tendons and muscles in the neck were repaired. 2. I have seen misplaced bones shift back into position to give INSTANT and complete relief. 3. One of my students worked with an AIDS patient in the hospital (who was not supposed to survive the night; recover and leave the hospital three days later. 4. I have seen a person COMPLETELY recover from a terminal disease. He had Muscular Dystrophy, and NO ONE is supposed to recover from that with the best of science and medication. This kid did it himself just by directing this lifeforce energy with the will (that kid was ME 24 years ago). 5. By directing this energy a person received a healing of a habitual bad back for the last 20 years. 6. A young lady was complaining about an ear ache and sinus infection, and she asked me to see if I could help her, I gave her a short healing session lasting no more than 3 minutes, and the heat coming from my hands blew her away. about two minutes after I removed my handsl her blood stream started moving that energy around, and she flushed beet red from the top of her head to her waist. 7. My neighbor Dean was hit by a train when the car he was in started to cross the tracks (the other passengers were killed (if memory serves) He has been in MASSIVE pain ever since. One of the neighbors in the apt complex told him that I was a healer, and was about to go to Canada to do a workshop, and he went to ask the manager, and she confirmed it, and told him about the incident with the healing of her daughter, and the maintenance man from another complex who had a headache, and the headache was GONE in 60 seconds; so my neighbor asked me to do a healing for him. I did, and after 3-4 minutes healing; the pain was gone, and stayed gone for 7-8 hours when he was popping very potent pain medication every 4-6 hours. I could go on and on with anecdotal evidence. We're not (I'm not anyway) trying to trash anyone's belief systems, just looking for testable answers, or even clues ... throw us a bone here. I have thown everyone a bone. I wrote a website explaining this spiritual technology, and people only have to apply it, and use the attitude "this MIGHT work" I am NOT asking for any more faith than that. After you begin moving lifeforce energy; and see this works; you can do the work to bring the subconscious mind into harmony with the conscious mind; then the higher powers can work through you and create miracles like those described above. When I cured my muscular Dystrophy; I was an athiest, but just using basic lifeforce energy (mana), and mental lifeforce energy (mana mana) but it took 8 weeks to walk away from the wheelchair. If I had; had this technology 24 years ago and could have used spiritual lifeforce energy then; it would not have takesn so many months to re-build my weakened body. Test the technology for yourselfl and YOU be the judge jury and prosecutor whether this spiritual technology works or not. I'm off to drink beer soon. It's made with water, malt, hops ... and yeast, which used to be called 'godisgood' ;o) Enjoy it. ANL - 2B |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: CarolC Date: 13 Aug 04 - 07:43 PM CarolC ... you would not be the best candidate to set up the test and I'm sure you would not want me to do it! It would have to be done by a third party. Who'd believe either one of us? ;o) Plus we're in two different countries. Is that you TBPL? I don't see any reason why I couldn't be a good candidate for conducting a test that uses a rigid scientific model with detailed records and exact measurements. I can describe the model for you if you want. Perhaps the results of the herbicide testing are available for examination? I have no idea. It was the College Park campus. I worked there during the summer of 1979, I believe. The department head was Dr. Ron Ritter. I believe Roundup was one of the herbicides we were testing, but I'm not sure. Here's a Google search with "university of maryland" herbicide "dr. ron ritter" as the search parameters. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: GUEST Date: 13 Aug 04 - 07:29 PM Love the song! CarolC ... you would not be the best candidate to set up the test and I'm sure you would not want me to do it! It would have to be done by a third party. Who'd believe either one of us? ;o) Plus we're in two different countries. Perhaps the results of the herbicide testing are available for examination? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Bill D Date: 13 Aug 04 - 06:59 PM *smile*....a musical take on the origins of 'us' (I used to know this by heart...I could brush up on it and sing it in an hour) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: CarolC Date: 13 Aug 04 - 06:58 PM TBPL, the energy is what's already there. As I said, they work with the energy that's in the vicinity of the crystal. I agree that one of the problems with trying to do a test involving my own perceptions of energy would be tricky, although I don't think necessarily impossible. That's why I have proposed an experiment involving plants. There's a woman in Jeffersonton Virginia who does this kind of experimentation. I first discovered the unpleasant reaction I experience around large Genesa crystals while visiting her experimental gardens. I can set up a test using the scientific model we used at the U of MD for herbicides, to measure the effect of spiritual energy on plants. And by "measure" I mean physically measure. I already have a small Genesa crystal and the materials for two identical container gardens with the only variable being the Genesa crystal, possibly in tandem with some other kinds of spiritual energy conductors. This would not be difficult to do. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Bill D Date: 13 Aug 04 - 06:49 PM I was reading thru recent posts, trying to decide whether to reply to some points, knowing that time was short right now......when I saw this: "...I do NOT believe in macro evolution where one species mutates into another. If we evolved from monkeys; why are there still monkeys?" This hits me harder than any of the 'energy' ideas, as I can at least understand why one could accept/believe in them, even if I don't.....but how one species mutates and evolves into others has been not only explained, but demonstrated......there are still monkeys because not all monkeys/apes mutated!...mutation is something that happens to INDIVIDUALS..and thus, their progeny. 50 apes in a group: ONE has a baby with a mutation for 'bigger brain case' or 'better hip joint', and off we go....49 do NOT, and their line remains apes/monkeys. I must ask what you DO believe is the origin of 'us'.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit From: Little Hawk Date: 13 Aug 04 - 06:39 PM Man, I think about the ramifications every day of my life! I look forward to people advancing to greater awareness and accomplishments and I believe they will. Evolution is an ongoing process. |
