BS: Matter and Spirit

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: GUEST,*daylia*
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 08:02 AM

One more thought - if the repositioning of that slipped disc and vertabrae in my back was an illusion, then having it slip out of place must have been an illusion too, and so was all that pain I suffered for so long. So pick your illusions ... I know which one I prefer!

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: GUEST,*daylia*
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 07:47 AM

Wolfgang, I would just LOVE to do that! I don't care about fame - but it would just be so rewarding to see more and more people using these easy and powerful techniques, taking responsibility for their own health instead of relying on pharmaceutical companies, learning how to heal themselves and others, proving to themselves that they CAN have everything that they need and desire and that to have these things is a birthright, awakening to their true potential as human beings. This planet would become an entirely different place! And people like yourself would finally know that this is no more of an illusion than the earth revolving around the sun. :-)

Here's a quote from Clark Wilkerson's Hawaiian Magic I used it as the intro page for my HUNA workshop handouts. This is why I finally came out of my shell this summer and did the workshop, at the risk of public ridicule and defamation ...

"One Kahuna (Priest of the Hawaiian Islands) turned to the wind and commanded aloud that it rise, blow and become strong. In minutes the wind actually increased. These men know how to use their hearts and how to use their mental bodies to create emotion, then energy, which in turn brings about manifestation. The power of the Spoken Word stems from speaking from the heart.

Not many people pray with their full hearts. This is why very few prayers are answered. People have fallen from the average forms of religion because of lack of proof which gave them doubt. The religion is not at fault. It is the fact they cannot speak and pray with their hearts or with their full mind power. They have not been trained to do so.

It is time that this planet and everyone on it be taught of these things, and that it not be held for only a few who can do it, who realize it, but do not have the ability to teach others".

Dewey, those are interesting posts. I have a few comments about your use of the words "evil" and "sinful" and the concept of "Judgment", and also about your claim However, mankind has not evolved to the spritual point of understanding his own significance in relation to God and the Infinite, If there was such an understanding, the destruction of the earth and all of its elements, would not have to occur

- I'll have to get back to you later though.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Wolfgang
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 07:27 AM

If those healings were so quick and convincing it would be easy for someone with the knowledge of research methods to conduct a study that would make it to Science or Nature. Some years later even an invitation to Stockholm might follow.

Try to contact someone with the relevant knowledge. If you are right I shall read about it in a journal and not just as case anecdotes. You can win fame. What could you lose except perhaps some illusions and even that shouldn't be considered a loss.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: GUEST,*daylia*
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 07:14 AM

Through Your Hands


You were ^E dreamin on a ^A park bench

About a ^E broad highway some ^Awhere
                     
When the ^Emusic from the ^A carillon
         
Seemed to ^E hurl your heart out ^A there
         
Past the ^E scientific ^A darkness
      
Past the ^E fireflies that ^A float
   
To an ^E angel bending ^A down
         
To wrap you ^E in her warmest ^A cloak


^AAnd you ask What am I not doing
               
She says your ^G#m voice cannot command
            
She says in ^F#m time you will move mountains
         
And it will ^B come through your hands^{E A E A}


Still you ^E angle for an ^A option
         
Still you ^Eargue for your ^Acase
         
Like you ^E wouldn't know a^A burning bush
      
If it ^E blew up in your ^A face
   
We ^E dream about the ^A future
   
And we ^E scheme about the ^A past
   
When ^E just a simple ^A reaching out
   
Could ^E build a bridge that ^A lasts


^AAnd you ask what am I not doing
               
She says your ^G#m voice cannot command
            
She says in ^F#m time you will move mountains
         
And it will ^B come through your hands^{E A E A}


SOLO


So ^E whatever your hands ^A find to do
   
You must ^E do with all your ^A heart
         
There are ^E thoughts enough to ^A blow men's minds
   
And ^E tear great worlds ^A apart
         
There's a ^E Healing Touch that ^A finds you
   
On that ^E broad highway ^A somewhere
      
To ^E lift you as high as ^A Music flyin

^E Thru the angels ^A hair


^ASo don't worry what you are not doing
         
Cause your ^G#m voice cannot command
   
In ^F#m time you will move mountains
      
It will ^B come through your hands^{E A E A E}


-David Crosby, John Hiatt

*********************************************************************

That's better ... thanks Bill! You're wonderful! :-)

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Dewey
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 05:42 AM

Didn't mean to imply everyone was going to Hell, Just that evil will have to be purged in order to achive equality and Perfection.

And, also, if there is to be such perfection things are gonna have to change drastically as well as are the people of the earth.

I realize religious views cannot be proven or disproven, and also that I might have strayed a bit from the topic, (AND ALSO BE WRONG IN MY CONCLUSIONS)


New matter, and New Spirit through a reconciled God/Man relation was my thought. After all, it really ain't a workin' that good so far.

Wars, Violence, Immorality etc. A small cry from perfection that is the God that is within us.

Dewey (who hopes his religious expressions will not be mis-interpreted)

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Dewey
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 04:42 AM

Can't Prove This, and it is thus largely theological:

But it is my opinion that matter and spirit can never entirely interact at their true potential until the coming of a "New Heaven" and "New Earth" that takes place within us and this universe (perfecting mankind's intellectual and spritual capacity) and purging the planet and universe of all evil.

We ALREADY have a GUIDANCE SYSTEM for the Spiritual Capacity (As I have discovered) for total equality and world peace on the planet earth IF all of us were tuned into and reacted to the infinite mind and its order and consciousness which is complete enlightnement and perfection(i.e. God)

I hear people say that world peace isn't possible, and I used to actually belief that. But Now I know that peace for humanity IS POSSIBLE when and if we, as a race, are to acheive the equality and righteousness of the infinite mind of God which produces this harmonious outcome.

i.e. Human Beings will have to be changed into the full likeness of God and Reconciled to Him As An Equal in Both Morals and Intellect, By doing away with the Old, the NEW comes into being, and is reconciled to perfection as God the creator ALREADY IS.

The Kingdom of Heaven is, "WITHIN US" (i.e. we have everything necessary that we need to make the word a perfect and intergrated paradise of peace and enquality; (I think George Burns Said this to John Denver is the Movie: "Oh God" The MESSAGE IN THE MOVIE WAS THAT GOD GAVE MAN EVERYTHING HE NEEDED TO MAKE THE WORLD AND UNIVERSE WORK!!) this is what the master intelligentce grants us, but what do we do: nothing of the sort)

SINCE THIS KINGDOM OF HEAVEN ISN'T WORKING (the one currently within us on this planet) THROUGH GOD AND HIS RECONCILATION AND JUDGEMENT A NEW ONE WILL COME INTO BEING WHICH IS THE NEW HEAVEN.

However, mankind has not evolved to the spritual point of understanding his own significance in relation to God and the Infinite, If there was such an understanding, the destruction of the earth and all of its elements, would not have to occur,

And I would respectfully differ with Little Hawk's Comment that People are basically good: If they were there would be no need for a new earth, I would say we as a planet are entirely evil and grossly spritually inmature in the eyes of the infinite mind (or creator who is perfect in all respects and interactions)


This is the reconcilation that is discribe in most religions, and the belief in a heavenly state is which humans are evolved to the God-head into a state of perfection, able to communcate and understand directly the laws of the universe, morality and God himself. Without error and without blemish


We are spiritual beings first and only human beings second, and because we haven't reversed and understood our primary rolls the mysteries of the universal cannot be manifest and and controlled through us.

It will be up to God to distroy the knowledge as in past civilizations. And create the new being with an interconnectedness to the God and the perfected new universe to which we will be a part (i.e. an equal)

Just An Opinion, As well as an ethical argument for the judgement that is to come,

on this very sinful and spritually immature planet, with which the mind of God laid out perfectly for our use and benefit, but which man cannot comprehend and make work for himself/herself.

Dewey

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Bill D
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 07:16 PM

you put the 'sup' thing where you want the letter to appear ...'sup' is short for 'superscript'...as you might guess, there is also a _sub

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Bill D
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 07:13 PM

like this

^EYou were ^Adreaming on a park bench

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Bill D
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 07:11 PM

*daylia*...if you type
if you type                     

^EYou were ^Adreaming on a park bench


it will put the chord right above where you want it...(I think)

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: *daylia*
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 10:33 AM

Somehow the chord changes didn't line up with the lyrics the way I typed it originally - they're 1-2 words ahead of where they should be, just about all the way through.

Wish I could fix it. Sorry bout that. :-(

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: *daylia*
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 10:26 AM

Musical interlude ....

    Through Your Hands

E                      A
You were dreaming on a park bench
E                         A
About a broad highway somewhere
          E             A
Where the music from the carillon
          E                   A
Seemed to hurl your heart out there
         E          A
Past the scientific darkness
         E             A
Past the fireflies that float
      E             A
To an angel bending down
             E             A
To wrap you in her warmest cloak



And you ask What am I not doing
                G#m
She says your voice cannot command
            F#m
She says in time you will move mountains
            B                  E   A   E   A
And it will come through your hands


E                      A
Still your angle for an option
          E             A
Still you argue for your case
          E             A
Like you wouldn't know a burning bush
       E               A
If it blew up in your face
   E                A
We dream about the future
   E            A
We scheme about the past
    E             A
When just a simple reaching out
      E                   A
Could build a bridge that lasts



And you ask what am I not doing
                G#m
She says your voice cannot command
            F#m
She says in time you will move mountains
            B                  E   A   E   A
And it will come through your hands


SOLO


E                      A
So whatever your hands find to do
    E                     A
You must do with all your heart
          E                A
There are thoughts enough to blow men's minds
    E                   A
And tear great worlds apart
          E                A
There's a Healing Touch that finds you
    E                           A
On that broad highway somewhere
      E                   A
To lift you as high as Music flyin
E               A
Thru the angels hair


A
So don't worry what you are not doing
          G#m
Cause your voice cannot command
    F#m
In time you will move mountains
       B                E   A   E   A
It will come through your hands


-David Crosby, John Hiatt

Whistling Moon Traveler Music/Careers BMG Music(BMI)
From "Thousand Roads"
Atlantic Records 1993

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Two_bears
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 10:08 AM

I was pretty amazed myself! But I told him NOT to go back to lifting weights for a while, and to use the liniments he'd just bought. I gave him the information about the up-coming HUNA workshop in case he wanted to learn more about the technique he'd just experienced.

Daylia; do you remember what I told you when you when you asked if the shock and awe wears off (after you observed the instant healing of your mothers knee? I don't think the amazement EVER wears off.

One of the instant healings I witnessed was Tammy F. The report available on my website is copied below.

-----
The healing of Tammy F's hand
by Two Bears

In June 2001; I was at the laundry mat (doing laundry) when I heard a lady scream outside. I went out to see what was wrong, and she told me she had injured her thumb and hand at work two days earlier, and had been unable to move her thumb since the accident. I picked up her laundry baskets and carried them inside for her.

Once inside; I introduced myself and told her that I was an energy healer, and offered to try to help heal her hand. Tammy was not a skeptic; she was a disbeliever in energy healing, She also stated that her doctor had reported the only way to improve the condition of her hand was to have surgery to repair the nerves and tendons.

I replied saying "if the energy does not help; it will not do any harm", so she held her hand out for me to work with it, I held her hand between my hands. About 30 seconds into the healing she asked how my hands get so hot. I replied "That is the energy.". 1 minute into the healing we both observed redness running up her arm. After sending energy into her injured thumb and hand for 3 - 4 minutes; I released her hand and asked how her hand felt.

At first she moved her thumb tentatively, and opened her mouth in amazement, then she wiggled her thumb almost normally. Then her expression was "Damn! This is cool!"
-----

In the space of 5 minutes her world view shifted dramaticaly. She went from a complete debunker "I don;t believe in any of that crap" to a person that accepted the miracle that happened to her own hand.

ANL - 2B

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Two_bears
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 09:52 AM

Daylia, I agree with you that science is bound to find new things, new approaches, new theories. But the standards of evidence and the principles of sound methods will not change. Whatever science finds on the field of health will be in a language you may not appreciate. And the evidence will be based on, basically, counting procedures and not on subjective experience.

The problem is that IF a scientist discovers and reports something not accepted by the other scientists (peer review); the scientists reputation is MUD, and they do not receive research grants, or are asked to submit papers.

I wish scientists would explore the edge of known science; but about 95% of them will not. ;-(

There is no doubt or anything remotely similar to critical thought in the mind of the real believer.

Of course there is. techniques either work or they do not. I opened my mind and heart and began exploring mysticism. If this did not work; I would not be wasting my time or life force.

ANL - 2B

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: GUEST,*daylia*
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 09:40 AM

Just talking about HUNA has got me all fired up with enthusiasm again here, and a thought just occured to me ... when science IS able to explain how HUNA and similiar techniques work, will the "price" of that scientific investigation be losing something intrinsically human, intangible and irreplacable? Look what Mark Twain says about rainbows ...

We have not the reverent feeling for the rainbow that the savage has, because we know how it is made. We have lost as much as we gained by prying into that matter.
- A Tramp Abroad

But then again ....

One can enjoy a rainbow without necessarily forgetting the forces that made it.
- "Queen Victoria's Jubilee"

Thanks for listening to my musings,

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: GUEST,*daylia*
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 08:27 AM

There is no doubt or anything remotely similar to critical thought in the mind of the real believer

Well, I do think critically, Wolfgang, and "belief" (ie putting blind faith in something) has got nothing to do with it. WHen I eat my lunch, for example, I do not need to "believe" it will relieve my hunger, or scientifically acceptable schematic data-sheets "proving" that it nourishes my body. I just know I'm not hungry anymore after I eat, and that my body stays healthy. Eating my lunch "works", whether or not I "believe" in it or understand it scientifically.

It's the same with HUNA. It works - and I'm not going to argue about why or how, because in the end it really doesn't matter. IT's the results that matter!

I felt HUNA instantly heal a slipped disc in my back I'd been suffering with for years as TWo Bears passed me mana loa (spiritual life-force energy), all the way from Tennesseee to Ontario. Do you think I care one iota HOW it worked to move that disc and realign those vertebrae? Notta chance! That long-standing debilitating pain is gone, I can move easily and freely again and I am so VERY grateful! And I know that no doctor, chiropractor, surgeon or scientist could possibly duplicate that instant healing!

I watched HUNA and acupuncture heal my concrete-working buddy's sciactic nerve in a matter of hours, after he'd been doped up on morphine etc and almost completey immoblized for months. I felt - and watched - HUNA alone heal young Robert's shoulder that day. These are only 3 examples of the many MANY HUNA healings and other workings I've had the pleasure of participating in and witnessing this year.   

Whatever science finds on the field of health will be in a language you may not appreciate. And the evidence will be based on, basically, counting procedures and not on subjective experience.

That's why I'm so excited to have an up-and-coming young medical scientist among my successful HUNA students. He does not have a lifetime of "anti-metaphysical" scientific conditioning blocking his ability or desire to understand how HUNA works! He KNOWS it does, he has the shoulder, the girlfriend and the apartment to prove it. I'm sure he'll keep me abreast of the latest scientific developments over the years.

No, HUNA healings do not require either "belief" or scientific / intellectual understanding. All that's required is the emotional readiness, at a deep subconscious level - to let go of whatever ails you and accept healing.

For example, Robert had never met me, never even heard of HUNA before that day he walked into the store where I was working in severe pain, looking for herbal remedies to help his shoulder. The 3 doctor's prescriptions he'd been on for weeks were having very little effect. I was moved with compassion when I saw the pain on his face, even though he was a complete stranger - I do know first-hand what athletic injuries to a joint feel like! So I spontaneously offered him HUNA to try to help ease the pain. He was so desperate he was willing to try just about anything at that point.

It worked!!! It felt like a flow fire coming through my hands that day, I'd never felt it quite so strong before. IT felt wonderful, to both of us! I watched him move that shoulder in several complete wide circles after a minute or so, where it had been almost completely immobilized moments before.

I was pretty amazed myself! But I told him NOT to go back to lifting weights for a while, and to use the liniments he'd just bought. I gave him the information about the up-coming HUNA workshop in case he wanted to learn more about the technique he'd just experienced.

Well, he walked out of that store with his eyes glued to that HUNA flyer like it was the Penthouse Pet of the Month or something. And he DID go back to weightlifting that very night - and he told me a couple weeks ago his shoulder has never bothered him again - in fact it's never been better.

Now, it doesn't always happen that way, of course.   A week later I was at a drumming circle with a very overweight, stressed out, crying, drugged up (on Percodans) woman who was complaining constantly about her arthritic knee. I offered her HUNA, she accepted. I asked her which knee was hurting, and she said "Oh, it's both knees ... and my back ... and my hip .... and I have diabetes ... and high blood pressure ... and fibromyalgia ... and a heart condition ...."

ANd with every complaint she listed, her eyes grew brighter and her face lit up. She was just beaming with pleasure when she finished her long list of ailments!

Now I knew right then the HUNA would be ineffective, because she was in no way ready for healing. It was so obvious she LIKED being sick! Her illnesses paid off for her -- kept her eligible for disability cheques, gave her lots of pitying attention etc. But I'd promised, so I laid my hands on her knees anyway and started the deep breathing for a HUNA healing, using exactly the same technique I had with Robert. There was barely a twitch of response, and very little effect except that she could move the knee a little tiny bit farther when I stopped.

The only difference between her and Robert was that Robert didn't want the pain! That pain was not "serving" him at all in his own mind, while her pain certainly "served" her. He wanted the healing, while deep down inside she didn't. Simple.

WHen science is finally able to explain these things, perhaps THAT will be the real miracle!

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Wolfgang
Date: 31 Aug 04 - 03:58 AM

linguistic constructions which are essentially about the mind of the proponent (Bill)

That's what it is and it can be very comforting to those sharing such a view. I have no problem at all with such constructions as explanations of the world.

But all too often people fond of such constructions step out of their safe area and make factual claims. Only and exactly from that moment on I have something to say.

Daylia, I agree with you that science is bound to find new things, new approaches, new theories. But the standards of evidence and the principles of sound methods will not change. Whatever science finds on the field of health will be in a language you may not appreciate. And the evidence will be based on, basically, counting procedures and not on subjective experience.

Open your mind and heart and you will have real and unambiguous experiences.
There is no doubt or anything remotely similar to critical thought in the mind of the real believer.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 10:46 PM

And there ya have it! Aloha nui loa, Two Bears! And Mahalo too.

(those are greetings in Hawaiian...)

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Two_bears
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 10:36 PM

People like the young medical student who directly experienced the instant healing of an painful month-old athletic injury (which doctor's prescriptions had done little to relieve) as I laid my hands on his shoulder for a minute, using HUNA spiritual/energetic techniques. He was so relieved and impressed he attended the HUNA workshop I gave with Two Bears a couple weeks later, and has since been using his new techniques with great success - from the healing of his girlfriend's sprained ankle a couple weeks ago, to finding exactly the accomodations he wanted at the university campus this fall.

Daylia IS telling you the truth.

I have seen many of these instant healings with my own eyes.

ANL - 2B

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Two_bears
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 10:25 PM

My point is that you can't have it both ways. If you use Kirlian effects for the spiritualist position then this only makes sense as an argument pro spirit as different from matter. I have argued with that position and nothing else. If Little Hawk calls my Kirlian argument a fallacy it just shows that he has little understanding of scientific argumentation.

But they aren't different, Just different states of the same thing much the same wah water can go through three states solid, liquid and vapor.

Physical matter is just a more dense and solid form that what is perceived as spirit. "Everything is a manifestation of the Great Spirit."

ANL - 2B

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Two_bears
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 10:17 PM

Even an atom has a living spirit. It would not exist if it didn't. A group of associated atoms have a group spirit.

Aloha nui loa Little Hawk; my brother.

Everything is a manifestation of the Great Spirit.

But, hey, I know you'll never accept that notion! (grin) I wouldn't have accepted it once either. Nor would Two Bears have accepted it before he had an experience that transformed his outlook.

Absolutely correct! For most of my life I was a convinced athiest, and seriously thought religious or spiritual people were crazy.

Then one evening in December 1996; I was meditating to direct healing energy into a badly mangled foot; I had been meditating for well over an hour, and I heard a soft pop in my chest, and I found myself near the ceiling looking down on my own body. That OBE gave me confirmation of life after death, and a spiritual awakening. and I found that my former life was the crazy one not the mystics that had experiences.

ANL - 2B

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Two_bears
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 10:04 PM

"Sorry; but first hand experiences trump a second rate opinion."

that is, IF the experience is real clear & unambiguous, and IF the opinion is flawed.

cute quotations do not settle arguments.

Open your mind and heart and you will have real and unambiguous experiences.

ANL - 2B

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: GUEST,*daylia*
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 07:28 PM

It's most promising to see a new generation of young scientists and medical students with the desire and the potential to make big big waves in the practice of health care, no less --- who are not only interested in spiritual healing and energy work but experiencing such success, so easily! - in both giving and receiving it.

I'm confident that the next generation will find the required scientific "standards of reference" to qualify and measure subjective "meta-physical" experience, turning debates like this into the stodgy old museum pieces.

People like the young medical student who directly experienced the instant healing of an painful month-old athletic injury (which doctor's prescriptions had done little to relieve) as I laid my hands on his shoulder for a minute, using HUNA spiritual/energetic techniques. He was so relieved and impressed he attended the HUNA workshop I gave with Two Bears a couple weeks later, and has since been using his new techniques with great success - from the healing of his girlfriend's sprained ankle a couple weeks ago, to finding exactly the accomodations he wanted at the university campus this fall.

It's people like this bright and promising young man, the scientists of the future, who give me hope. And look out .... there's gonna to be a LOT more like him!

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 06:49 PM

Agreed, Bill. Let's put it this way...if I were trying to solve a crime, I would look for physical evidence, and anecdotal evidence of witnesses, and I would also look for those imponderables (such as motive or motivation of the criminal)...depending on the situation. If I were searching for gold in the ground, I would look almost entirely for physical evidence, I suppose. If I were searching for the meaning of life I would consider physical evidence as part of the picture, all right, but I would mainly be looking for things I cannot touch physically...I would be looking in the realms of allegory, metaphor, emotion, thought, moral tenets, spiritual ideals, parables, and so on.

Those are mostly things one can have opinions about, but not prove. One can try them out over a period of time though, and see how they work in practice. If they seem to work well, then that is proof enough for me.

The great philosophical questions are what fascinate me.

Is everything alive? (I think so.)
Is everything conscious in some way? (I think so.)
Did all this happen by accident or by intention? (I think the latter.)
Is the Universe mostly dead matter or is it manifested consciousness? (I think the latter.)
Is life essentially good? (I think so.)
Are people essentially sinful? (I think not.)

What a person believes about such things is important, because his conduct tends to flow directly from what he thinks. So too for a whole civilization. A civilization which does not see importance in anything but itself and its own creations is a dangerous civilization...headed for a fall. Nature does not tolerate such self-centredness forever...not because Nature gets angry, but merely because it always works to maintain a balance. When things get too far out of balance Nature brings about a re-adjustment.

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 06:18 PM

the point about not being able to prove these matter is even more significant than noted by Little Hawk....

when two physical scientists compare notes and opinions on some test, theory or fact, they usually have a standard of reference and can look at each other's ideas and experiments and perhaps double-check for accuracy. When even two serious Philosophers compare notes, they have logical and linguistic standards for being sure they are speaking the same language and referring to the same ideas, though it can take longer and be trickier.

But when two proponents of meta-physical phenomena compare experiences, they are both referring to subjective phenomena and 'personal' experiences, and can never be sure their referents ARE inherently comparable. Since they, by definition, deal with what is untestable, there is no way to easily separate the experience from the linguistic expression of the experience.

such statements as "Matter is simply spirit at a lower rate of vibration." and the examples given, become circular and merely linguistic constructions which are essentially about the mind of the proponent, rather than objective reality.

(I tried to formulate this in a way that did not sound insulting or condescending...I'm not sure I succeeded. When I re-read it, it sounds like all I am saying is: "Oh, you're just talkin' about air"...*wry smile*...but there is really an attempt to get a handle on the basis of our different approaches.)

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 05:09 PM

Well, of course you shouldn't, Wolfgang. I don't expect anyone to prove or disprove these matters. I investigate these things not because I am seeking proof but because I'm seeking inspiration. It's spiritual philosophy. One does not prove philosophy, one attempts to understand it, that's all, and hopes to be uplifted by it.

I prefer positive philosophies to negative ones, given the choice.

That's why I am not fond of negatively based religious ideas such as: original sin, punishment for sins, human unworthiness, hellfire, damnation and that sort of thing.

Such ideas strike me as unproductive, fear-based, and entirely false in concept.

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Wolfgang
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 04:58 PM

Why should I try to prove something which you yourself say (wisely) that it is unprovable.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 12:18 PM

I had another post back there which vanished for some reason. Let's see if it's in the buffer...

Yes it is! It's from yesterday, as follows:


Yes, Carol, that's exactly what I was thinking. Matter is simply spirit at a lower rate of vibration.

Example:

Slowest spirit - solid matter
Faster spirit - liquid matter
Still faster spirit - gaseous matter
Some much faster forms of spirit - radio waves, radiation, magnetic fields, electricity, sound, heat, light
And faster than that - astral thought (memory and emotion)
And faster than that - causal thought (formative, creative ideas and concepts that give birth to various phenomena and outcomes)
And faster than that - something we cannot define because it completely encompasses AND is within every part of our whole field of relativity and we can't get outside it or next to it or away from it because it is not separate from us...so it cannot be measured. (Some have called it "God", and in so doing have usually invested it with all too human characteristics...thus creating God in man's image! This is the kind of old-fashioned religiouse belief that Wolfgang rightly objects to, as it is putting the cart before the horse and creating an unreal God. A myth, in fact.)

The above list is only partial, I'm sure, but it gives a general idea of the principle of spirit (which is intelligent consciousness taking form as matter or energy or pure thought). It is not a human phenomenon, it's beyond human. Human beings, like other living and even apparently inert things, are a manifestation of it, that's all. And they are NOT the only manifestation of it by any means.

Everything is made in "God's image", not just human beings. And that doesn't mean that God looks exclusively like a man, a bird, or a rock! It means that they all look the way a bundle of highly intelligent energy looks when it slows down and takes purposeful form as a physical item or being...like a cloud, a star, a comet, a rose, an ant, or a human being...or a single atom, seen under a microscope.

And no, Wolfgang, I cannot prove any of it, nor would I expect to be able to prove it. :-)

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 12:11 PM

Unless, Wolfgang, the results of Kirlian photography were to show an energy field around a "dead" leaf as well as a "living" leaf, but the kind of energy field was consistantly different for the dead leaf than for the living leaf, and different in the same way each time. But I don't know enough about Kirlian photography to know if this would be possible.

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Wolfgang
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 11:53 AM

In a remote way, yes, Carol, though I wouldn't have put it that way. For the materialist, under both living matter/nonliving matter conditions Kirlian effects are to be expected. For the spiritualist of Little Hawk type, under both conditions, Kirlian effects are to be expected. So finding Kirlian effects for both states of the matter cannot be used to tell which of them is correct.

Technically speaking, there is of course a control condition possible, for Little Hawk as well as I can easily differentiate between say a dead leaf and another.

But any general Kirlian effect is neither for him nor for me a test of the theory. We both expect that.

For a dualist, the situation is different. He expects differential effects for dead leaves and not yet dead leaves. For him, consistently not finding a difference would be a blow to his using Kirlian effects as argument.

Similarly, finding differential effects, that is different effects for dead leaves and fresh leaves, are a difficulty for both monist positions, be they materialist or spiritualist.

My point is that you can't have it both ways. If you use Kirlian effects for the spiritualist position then this only makes sense as an argument pro spirit as different from matter. I have argued with that position and nothing else. If Little Hawk calls my Kirlian argument a fallacy it just shows that he has little understanding of scientific argumentation.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 11:24 AM

Are you saying, Wolfgang, that Kirlian photography isn't usable as a test to determine whether or not there is spiritual energy in matter for people who are monists because there can be no control?

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Wolfgang
Date: 30 Aug 04 - 06:27 AM

I'd say this point from Wolfgang actually supports the idea of matter and spirit being the same thing, much more than it undermines it. (Carol)

You're so right, Carol, but do you realise what that means what you have posted? If you read the first posts you can easily see that I'm not a dualist but a monist (like, for instance, Little Hawk too). So neither he nor I expect any proof either way from Kirlian photography, for we both would make the same prediction: Living and not living matter (I use these words as abbreviations for something more complicated) lead to the same photographs.

To mention it as anything resembling a proof only makes sense for a dualist. The people usually offering Kirlian photographs as a proof are dualists (so I have to guess that either Two Bears is dualist or doesn't realise that taking Kirlian photography as an empirical argument is completely senseless). They claim that Kirlian photographs from dead matter are different from Kirlian photographs of living matter (like for instance a leaf still at a tree or a fallen leaf). My argument that dead matter leads to the same pictures can only be directed at those claimants (and in this context it was only directed at Two Bears' argumentation). For a dualist, a result contrary to his world view would make a problem.

I never would have offered Kirlian photography as an empirical argument to, for instance, Little Hawk (though he seems to think so), for I know we both expect the same result. To quarrel about empirical results (or to look for them in the first place) only makes sense, if it matters one way or the other. Some of you could profit a lot from reading about the methodology of science and what makes a theory testable and what not.

first hand experiences trump a second rate opinion (Two Bears)
Two Bears, you seem to think and to imply that you see there a big difference between you and me. And I have the impression that you have little knowledge of what an empirically working scientist does besides reading books.
(1) Many of your arguments are like many of mine arguments you have read, second hand arguments.
(2) A part of my job is doing experiments, empirical experiments. I have first hand experience doing experiments near the absolute threshold of perception and also about human errors. When I talk about the difference between what stimuli humans have actually been subjected to and what they report and what their interpretation of their experiences is, I speak not from books. The notion I read so often that scientific findings can be dismissed out of hand in comparison to personal experience is mostly rubbish.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: CarolC
Date: 29 Aug 04 - 11:05 PM

To follow up on what LH and Two Bears have said, in my first post to this thread, I said:

some of us don't see "matter" and "spirit" as being separate at all.

...and Wolfgang gave us this:

Once you realise that Kirlian photographs of not living matter lead to the same observable phenomena, you quickly drop the interpretation of the effect as an energy field, because it makes no sense any longer.

I'd say this point from Wolfgang actually supports the idea of matter and spirit being the same thing, much more than it undermines it.

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Aug 04 - 06:46 PM

There is no "not living" matter, Wolfgang, and that is the fallacy in your argument. Every single atom in existence is alive. That does not mean that a stone is alive in the same way as an animal or a plant, but the atoms that make up the stone are alive. Therefore Two Bears in fact is not in error as you say he is.

Even an atom has a living spirit. It would not exist if it didn't. A group of associated atoms have a group spirit.

But, hey, I know you'll never accept that notion! (grin) I wouldn't have accepted it once either. Nor would Two Bears have accepted it before he had an experience that transformed his outlook.

Wolfgang, there is absolutely nothing in the manifested Universe that is not alive. Life is the norm. "Death" is a name we give to a dramatic change of outer form and function...and the disappearance of a specific bundle of intelligence from obviously inhabiting an individual outer form that we have grown accustomed to observing...or ourselves inhabiting for a period of time.

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Aug 04 - 10:41 AM

"Sorry; but first hand experiences trump a second rate opinion."

that is, IF the experience is real clear & unambiguous, and IF the opinion is flawed.

cute quotations do not settle arguments.

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Aug 04 - 09:54 PM

Wolfgang Hell lives in Germany.

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Two_bears
Date: 28 Aug 04 - 09:05 PM

I'd love to if I was close enough.

Wolfgang:

What part of the country do you live in? Maybe we could meet if I happen to be in your area.

As so often in threads about this theme, your main mistake is that you don't differentiate between observation and interpretation. Of course, there is something visible around a body in Kirlian photography, visibility and spread of that phenomenon depending upon pressure and moisture. Nobody denies that. That's an easily

Right. There IS an observable field which the Unamazing Randi states "does not exist."

replicable and fairly well understood phenomenon. The interpretation of what you see is what really matters. Once you realise that Kirlian photographs of not living matter lead to the same observable phenomena, you quickly drop the interpretation of the effect as an energy field,

Wolfgang: you are not looking at the world from a metaphysical or mystical point of view.

I know for a fact that there is a field emanating from generator quartz crystals, and other things that are inanimate.

This universal energy (the Chinese call it ch'i, the Hawai'ians called it mana, the Cherokee called it nuwati, the Pueblo indians called it itaki, etc.

The Hawai'ians and others learned how to use mental focus and intent to store mana in a stick, and the stick need not cause any injury; but merely by touching another person with the stick would cause the mana surcharge to be released into the person and knocking them unconscious.

It would all depend on what item the kirlian photograph was of, and whether someone stored an energy surcharge in the item previously.

because it makes no sense any longer. You're fighting above your weight here.

That may be.

That's the difference between relying upon authorities/teacher or whoever and the way of critical thinking.

Sorry; but first hand experiences trump a second rate opinion.

ANL - 2B

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Wolfgang
Date: 28 Aug 04 - 07:48 PM

why don't you come for a visit and find out how I teach people how to see and experience the aura? (Two Bears)
I'd love to if I was close enough.

Kirlian photography CLEARLY shows an energy field around fingers and hands (Two Bears)
As so often in threads about this theme, your main mistake is that you don't differentiate between observation and interpretation. Of course, there is something visible around a body in Kirlian photography, visibility and spread of that phenomenon depending upon pressure and moisture. Nobody denies that. That's an easily replicable and fairly well understood phenomenon. The interpretation of what you see is what really matters. Once you realise that Kirlian photographs of not living matter lead to the same observable phenomena, you quickly drop the interpretation of the effect as an energy field, because it makes no sense any longer. You're fighting above your weight here.

"There are only two opinions that matter to me; and neither of them is yours" Two Bears 1996
If you are contented with so little, well, not my problem. I can't recollect any field of knowledge I'm really interested in in which I would be contented with so little. On those fields I'm interested in opinions that really matter to me are rarely less than about a dozen; and not the same dozen on the next field. That's the difference between relying upon authorities/teacher or whoever and the way of critical thinking.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Two_bears
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 10:24 PM

I'm expressing myself poorly in these posts. I have always assumed that the aura, if it exists, is not an optical phenomenon, but is seen in the mind's eye, perhaps "a mixture of feeling the body heat radiation (most times higher than the surrounding air) and perhaps some imagination in his pupils." or perhaps something else. The question to me is, can the aura-seer do anything useful with his/her aura-sight, whatever the explanation of it is?

Hello Clint. The aura CAN be seen via normal sight; but it does require the use of a technique or two; in order to train yourself to see them.

Yes; someone who can see auras can easily use this knowledge to see when one is lying, check the health of the person.

If so, let him alone. If therapeutic touch only works without a screen, then don't use a screen

I use Therapeutic Touch on people 2000+ miles away on at least a weekly basis.

ANL - 2B

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Two_bears
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 10:10 PM

Wolfgang:

why don't you come for a visit and find out how I teach people how to see and experience the aura?

As far as your comment about my oversteping my knowledge of a subject.

Kirlian photography CLEARLY shows an energy field around fingers and hands, and the Unamazing Randi categoricaly states "There is NO energy field around the body".

"There are only two opinions that matter to me; and neither of them is yours" Two Bears 1996

ANL - 2B

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Two_bears
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 09:58 PM

The problem with the conditions that the Amazing Randi sets up is the same kind of thing as what you get if you sign up to appear on the Jerry Springer show. You have no control over how the content of your work gets used. Randi will have ownership of all of the results and he will have the right to use them any way he sees fit. He could make a real circus of your life if he wanted to. And I'm guessing, if he thought it would get him some publicity (and maybe a lot of money), he wouldn't care if the way he used your results hurt you personally in ways that have nothing to do with the results of the tests. It's all about entertainment to people like that.

Carol:

You should contact Lin Kong Jing Qigong master Richard Mooney about his experience with the Unamazing Randi.

ANL - 2B

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Two_bears
Date: 27 Aug 04 - 09:54 PM

OK, I don't really believe 2Bears can detect auras, but the screen experiment is not proof of much. After all, many kinds of screen will block vision, but eyesight exists.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion; even when they're wrong.

ANL - 2B

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 04:06 PM

I just had a look around the Center for Complementary Medicine site. It looks like they are doing good work. In my case, I can't just contact them and tell them that I experience a physical reaction to high concentrations of spiritual energy. For one thing, it's not a disorder. Because it's not a disorder, there aren't likely to be people who would benefit from scientific research being done on this phenomenon.

Secondly, there would need to be a treatment that is being proposed and studied. In the case of my experience of being easily overloaded with energy, the only treatment that would be likely to produce results would be one that corrects the deformities in the bones of my neck. They don't have any studies like that, and I wouldn't expect them to since this is a problem that may be unique to me. And if not, I think it's pretty easy to figure out what is causing the problem and how to fix it. Personally, I don't want anyone messing around with the bones in my neck. At least not any doctors. I'm still trying to decide if I even want any spiritual healers like Two Bears to mess with it. It's a pretty important part of my body, being the part just below where my spinal cord enters/exits the bottom of my skull.

I looked in the list of disorders for which they are doing studies. There are a few that I might be eligible for, but I would have to live close to where the study is being conducted. I didn't see any that are being conducted near where I live. But at least they are doing the research and I'm guessing they aren't having any difficulty finding test subjects for their studies.

Here's a link to their site in case anyone's interested:

http://nccam.nih.gov/

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 12:58 PM

Maybe my mind just isn't set up to work with crystals. I've been into quite a few "mind-body-spirit" shops and felt nothing except occasional nausea from the incense sticks. ;-)

I don't know if you saw the link for Genesa crystals earlier in this thread, and I don't know if you are refering to crystals that are mineral formations or if you know that a Genesa crystal is a shape and not a mineral. At any rate, as I've said before, most people don't experience energy in quite the same way that I do. That's not due to anything special about me, but rather from something a bit defective about my body.

But it seems to me that this is a time where "amateurs" rather than big business can really make a difference - it's in the same place that science, medicine and astronomy were 200 years ago. It seems odd to me that the people who could make a difference are prepared to say "we can do this" but then aren't prepared to take the next step towards backing it up which would benefit all humanity.

I don't think you need to worry about this, Graham. I think it's happening, but maybe not in a way that you would be able to see just yet. In my own experience, things have come a long way even with the established medical community. I've noticed that a lot of doctors are much more prepared to believe what patients say about their own experiences than they used to be. Eventually, some of them will begin to apply their scientific expertise to the task of making these things understandable and available to humanity at large.

On the other hand, if you are qualified, and you want to come test me, be my guest. I don't have the resources to conduct experiments on the effect that large Genesa crystals have on me, but I do have the resources to conduct experiments on the effect that spiritual energy has on plants. As far as allowing myself to be put in the public spotlight for this work... sorry. I don't see that as being of any benefit to mankind. If someone wants to do this quietly, out of the public spotlight, and they are willing to respect my privacy, and if they are willing to come here to do their testing, they will be most welcome.

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Wolfgang
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 09:53 AM

Here you can find the reference, Amos. This is a review article and the original studies are referencend in it.

The good news is that the placebo effect can make us feel better, and the bad news is that in the worst case that may be all it can.

Again with the example of the one selling a petrol additive for more mileage:
- We know for sure that a positive effect (of the additive) is there if we don't look at the actual miles done with the car but ask the driver how it feels driving with the additive (and the driver says, yes it feels better, whether the additive is in there or not)
- We suspect that there may be no effect upon the mileage at all and that everything the buyer gets for the money is a better feeling.
- There could be a (much smaller than placebo) real effect lurking. Perhaps a driver with the additive thinks more about saving gas and therefore drive a little different which would make a difference even with an objective outcome measure. But we would know then that not the additive but the behaviour change is the relevant thing.

What always surprises me in these discussions (about nonconventional medical treatments) is the following: The believers say it works and when asked how they know they say it's their experience. When asked what are the constituents of their experience they say it comes down to counting cases where it has worked and compare it with cases where it has not. Basically, they do a (informal, more like estimating, but humans are not bad at estimating numbers) counting procedure and nothing else.

Scientists do more or less the same with some minor differences:

(1) They replace estimating by actually counting
(2) They try to define before counting what constitutes a success (or a failure)
(3) They try to control some biases in judgement by proper design (for instance, they do not let someone with a bias do they counting or at least let the one doing the counting not know what she counts, so any bias doesn't interfere with the results)

That's basically how these studies are done: Both ask the same question, namely, does it help (on the average) and both let the same procedure, namely (implicit or explicit) counting, decide.

The interesting difference comes when the one procedure ('experience') leads to positive results and the other (scientific study) leads to a result of no effect. Then the believers say, your procedure doesn't grasp the realities of life and all that, and forget that the scientists have done more or less the same what they do. The scientists point to the possibility that the differences (better control, no influence of bias,...) may account for the results.

The believers often cannot even admit that possibility for they have invested too much (financially and emotially) and perhaps profit a lot (think again of the gas addtitive salesman; would he be interested in a study showing it doesn't help the buyers, only the sellers?). They'll use all kinds of ad hoc explanations to avoid the one they fear most.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Bagpuss
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 09:29 AM

There are all sorts of factors which affect the strength of the placebo effect Amos. I'll see if I can find some literature for you - though there may be some pointers in the last website I mentioned. I may be a while tho as Im busy for the next few days.

But off the top of my head, even things like the colour of the pill can have an effect. Something like a red pill being more effective than a blue pill, and larger pills have more of an effect than smaller ones, and injections even more so.

And one mustnt forget that conventional medicines that work better than placebo also exhibit the placebo effect. For example it has been shown that pills that have more noticable side effects often have a greater effect than those without. Which in turn raises the question that the placebo used in these studies may not be a good control, as those on the real pills are more likely to suspect they are in the experimental control group real because of the side effects. This in turn can cast doubt on the validity of the results.

Completely by the by, but I remember an experiment on conditioned learning in animals in which rats were killed by sugar water! The taste of the water had previously been paired with a poisonous substance, on numerous occasions, but not enough to kill them. Then when they were given larger doses of the sugar water without the poison, the rats reacted as if they had been given the poison in a large dose, and many of them died!

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Amos
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 09:10 AM

Wolfgang:

I mis-typed in my last, which should have read "The amazing thing, Clint, IMHO, is that so many wonderful results are attributed to the "placebo effect" that on the whole it is almost miraculous." I would never have implied or said intentionally thast any result deemed wondeArful was also deemed Placebo Effect.


And I understand what you;ve said about the placebo effect as an important part of results analysis.

The point that too often gets missed is that if positive cures can be induced under certain conditions by belief, it is perhaps very desirable to know how belief works, and under what conditions it can effect such cures, since it cannot do so uniformly, apparently. How does this "non-effect" somehow manage to induce a reversal of symptoms? How many cases has it actually done so in, and what common denominators if any do they have?

Are you aware of any such studies?

A

A

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Grab
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 08:56 AM

Sure, Carol, I know you don't want fame for the sake of it. No well-adjusted person would. My point was just that something like that, carried out to correct standards, is not open to media manipulation.

As far as this being personal, if you go back a few hundred years then the wise women and apothecaries kept their herbal remedies secret and made rituals out of it. Early doctors were widely regarded as ineffectual, but they had no access to this body of knowledge, so all that they heard about was the rituals and not the contents of the herbal remedies. Today, we know that some of these herbal remedies would have had physical effects on the human body, and doctors (via the pharmaceutical industry) use them to heal people. But the first step was always finding what the herbs were and trying them out in controlled conditions. (And equally, we know that some of the herbal remedies and some of the doctors' techniques would have had no effect or actually been harmful, so not all old knowledge is good knowledge! ;-)

Now doctors today get some flak for not being open to the possibility of spiritual healing, especially in cases where "conventional medicine" has no answers yet. It seems there are two possibilities here. Firstly, people who practise "alternative therapies" can stay shtumm. Some of their patients will get better, some won't. The practitioners won't know why because they're not approaching it in the right way to test their therapies, nor will the patients, and no-one else with the same illness will ever be helped. Or secondly, people who practise "alternative therapies" can actively follow this stuff up. If it works, "alternative" will become "mainstream", and everyone with that illness, forever into the future, will be helped.

Maybe my mind just isn't set up to work with crystals. I've been into quite a few "mind-body-spirit" shops and felt nothing except occasional nausea from the incense sticks. ;-) But it seems to me that this is a time where "amateurs" rather than big business can really make a difference - it's in the same place that science, medicine and astronomy were 200 years ago. It seems odd to me that the people who could make a difference are prepared to say "we can do this" but then aren't prepared to take the next step towards backing it up which would benefit all humanity.

Bagpuss, thanks for that link - I'd forgotten about that one. :-)

Graham.

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Bagpuss
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 07:56 AM

(and the John Henry effect, the halo effect and Jastrow's effect... but now I'm just pulling these off the website of a lecturer I had in the past...)

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Wolfgang
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 07:47 AM

Bagpuss, yes, and it's not always easy to separate the two. Roughly: If I tell a group you'll get a treatment and we expect that it works for you and it does, we call it Placebo. If I tell a group you'll get a treatment but we don't know yet what it does positively or even negatively and we want to find out and if that group does better than a group which get that same treatment but don't know we watch their performance, it would be called Hawthorne effect.

And then there is the Pygmalion effect (experimenter expectation, Rosenthal effect)...

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Bagpuss
Date: 25 Aug 04 - 07:39 AM

article about placebo and the mind body link.