BS: Matter and Spirit

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 10:23 PM

You sceptics don't need to have conferences, Bill, because you are armoured by the sheer concrete of a fixed attitude that needs inquire no further.... ;-)

It's wonderful already knowing it ALL, after all, isn't it? So neat and orderly, in a mental sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 10:09 PM

oh, Amos...Amos!....why did I know it had to be you? *grin*....

I had (mercifully) almost forgotten this.

So...they had a conference and had many reports and nodded wisely to each other.

Perhaps those who have been abducted by aliens will have a conference also.....

No doubt Astrologers have more than one conference a year.

We sceptics seldom have conferences, as we 'doubt' it will do any good, and it's expensive to travel..*grin*

Anyway, I read a lot of this again, and WOW, I sure was impressed with my highly refined critiques and analysis of the flaws involved in wishful thinking!!! I didn't know I was so blamed insightful! *giggle*

....you can revive this thread again, Amos....in, oh...I think 6-7 years would be ok...

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Amos
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 08:57 PM

A recent article discovered via Google news:

Sharing their near-death experiences

Saturday 17 June 2006, 19:19 Makka Time, 16:19 GMT


Some people claim out of body experiences during operations


Doctors, researchers and patients have gathered near Marseille in southern France for the world's first ever conference dedicated to near-death experiences (NDEs).


More than 1,500 delegates including people who claim to have had NDEs are attending the one-day conference, which aims to take stock of the disputed phenomenon in the most scientific way possible.

Among them is anaesthetist and intensive care doctor Jean-Jacques Charbonnier, who has taken evidence from several people who claim to have had an NDE.

"People who were brain-dead could see what was going on in a waiting room, or around them, in precise detail. We are not talking about an hallucination here because it was quite real," he said.

Sonia Barkallah, organiser of the conference, being held in Martigues near Marseille, added: "These are people who have come close to death, whether through an accident or during an operation, and who have brought back from their unconscious state accounts that are quite out of the ordinary.

"They are floating above their bodies, they can hear what the doctors are saying about them, they feel themselves getting sucked into a dark tunnel with a bright but not blinding light at the end of it.

"At the end of the tunnel they often meet 'light beings' or dead relatives who tell them it is not their time."

Scepticism

"They are floating above their bodies, they can hear what the doctors are saying about them, they feel themselves getting sucked into a dark tunnel with a bright but not blinding light at the end of it"


Sonia Barkallah,
conference organiser

Articles in respected scientific journals such as Nature and The Lancet have provided a better understanding of NDEs, although there remains considerable scepticism about the phenomenon.

In a statement released ahead of the conference, delegates including the respected American psychiatrist Raymond Moody said it was "very important that scientists should be able to conduct research in different disciplines, in particular in neurosciences, without prejudice of any kind".

A survey released in 1982 in the United States showed eight million Americans claimed to have experienced an NDE.

Controversial

Nonetheless, Barkallah said, the phenomenon remains "very controversial, especially in France, where it is difficult to conduct serious research".

"I noticed that doctors were very interested in the subject, but that they conducted their research in secret, afraid of being considered quacks," she said.

"The aim of this international day is not to prove that there is life after death, it is to show what this can teach us on a human and scientific level," she added.

Charbonnier said he frequently felt he could read the minds of his unconscious patients.

He told how on one occasion he felt he was being asked to look in a patient's wallet.

When he did so, he found a letter from the patient asking to be "unplugged" if he was ever in such a condition.

Charbonnier said many people found coming close to death to be a positive experience that left them feeling more altruistic and less attached to material things.

AFP

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Bill D
Date: 16 Dec 04 - 12:05 PM

..so..now we have to kick Huey & Louie around?...well.....

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Dewey
Date: 16 Dec 04 - 11:42 AM

O.K. People.... I admit it! I am consdecending as well, care too much about what others think of me
You now know what buttons to push.

There is no one else each of us loves more than ourselves, and no one else we seek harder to defend when that self love is threatened.

Human nature in action.

It's the old talk radio strategy; but revisited in this post instead: when a caller makes a fool out of his/her self in an openline call, the moderator doesn't attempt to argue with him/her, just gets out of his/her way, and lets that other person self destruct.

Well,

3, 2, 1..........

BOOM!!!!!


Well EVERYBODY you don't have to worry about my postings anymore, because GENTLEMAN this is my last post.



"YOU WON'T HAVE DEWEY TO KICK AROUND ANYMORE"

for awhile at least (LOL)

Dewey

P.S.

Sorry, Mr. President for having copied your line; and, used it in this forum... but after all: YOU ARE DEAD, and it should NOT be of any objectionable consequence to you in your current unchallenging position and among your greatest fans and supporters here on the mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Dewey
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 03:07 AM

Guest,

Actually I live in North Dakota, in an open field in a trailer, in town.

Also, I am allowed to be out of character from time to time as are you, and being you are posting here as a guest you too are still out of character:

Everyone has a name please tell us yours, or will doing so possibly expose your charactor as well?

Be humble enough to admit that you can be human too and say things wrong without having to hide your identity under the title: "guest" What does it worry you anyway what others think?

I am not ashamed of being a loser, aging pizza boy, trailor dweller. etc. its all part of the journey or lack of it up until this point!

but I do not un-necessarily pick fights.

Thank you Guest!

Plese get register Guest!

If you haven't already been registered.......

Dewey (the registered one)

formerly Guest Dewey (the unregistered but still boldly exposed guest)

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Dewey
Date: 06 Dec 04 - 02:48 AM

Guest. Can Amos not read my posts, just as much as you! Guest! I have a rough idea of who you are. You are a Guest.

Thanks for clarifying yourself. My instinct are, and I could be wrong, they you are a regular and I think a know who, but I would still like to remain a friend to whoever you are so I will call you a guestly friend.

I am not shy about who I am. I am not shy about my failings in life. I have been a total and utter loser up to this turning point in my life.

I have nothing to hide, and I get upset too. When I come to my senses, I using apologize to those I have offended.

I didn't claim that having the cosmis sense makes me a perfect person. I am only perfect through the perfecting of God, its a journey, not a one time makeover.

Fools think themselves better than others, in the end we are all equals working toward a common cause... but I digress.

Guest! Please let me know when the get yourself a name and free feel to PM me sometime when/if you do.

Thank you Guest!

Dewey (the registered user, pizza boy and cosmic philospher)

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 10:10 AM

"I think what your basically trying to do here is call me an idiot, to protect an ego driven agenda of intolerance."

Watch it Dewey! You fell out of character with that remark. I know who you really are! Even if Amos doesn't. Your Lawrence Welk watching, Minnsota woods trailer living, unmarried 34 year old Christian right male charcter that sells pizza...would never say such a thing. But MG would...now wouldn't he?

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Amos
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 09:53 AM

Dewey:

Move on down here to southern California, pal! We're used to your kind, and it's warmer. too!

I can tolerate Republicans, no problem. The things I have problems with are stupidity, fascism, cruelty, greed, and lying. I have seen much of those things coming from the current Administration. It is not their Republicanism which bothers me.

As for Cosmic Sense, don't misunderestimate us. The problem with those is really how you describe them to others; it can be like talking high-energy physics to a Trobriand Island grandma. So you have to scale your communications and vocabulary to the vocabulary and reality-construct of the person you're talking to or it's just hot air. If you talk quanta and spin and such, it won't hook up.

I am delighted you are connected with higher intelligence. Don't let my somewhat rough-edged style of talk discourage you. You're not alone.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Dewey
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 05:57 AM

Sorry to have interupted the "Matter and Spirit" Debating team with my pointless and un-articulate rambling (LOL)

I've got this cosmic sense and was merely looking for an outlet to express it. I'm stuck up here in a very small town without a single soul that understands what I am experiencing, real though the experience may be.


You People have no idea what it is like to have discovered this power and be totally unable to express it to others. It drives you nuts, because you want to go beyond what you have learned and make it interact with other people in the way that it is intended to do naturally, yet there is no one else around who has the same capability or background. You just get a funny puzzled look or a shake of the head, from everyone you meet.

Also,I would like to apologize for my over zealous, and un-documented religious views pressed in this thread. THIS APOLOGY I AM ACTUALLY SINCERE ABOUT AND FEEL LIKE A FOOL, YET I WISH THIS ERROR TO BE RECOGNIZED AND RECONCILED WITH THOSE OFFENDED.

I would also like to Apologize to Amos for being Republican. Had I known he couldn't tolorate this I would have never made it know in this forum. (LOL)

Dewey (the nut)

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Dewey
Date: 05 Dec 04 - 04:55 AM

Nothing like a good fight among friends is there Amos!

I think what your basically trying to do here is call me an idiot, to protect an ego driven agenda of intolerance.

I was very interested in you (despite our differences in opinions on many topics Politics, Religion etc.)

I even looked up your picture posted here, and was surprised to find that you are an older individual.

Somethings are better off left unchallenged, and I am amazed to see a man of your relative years and intelligents still squabbling, belittling and finding fault in every petty issue that comes across this message board.

Yes, I made some generalizations and ambiguities here. Yes I cannot defend of prove any of my assumptions.

But there is one thing I have here that many do not have but may wish to aquire; and that is direct and sustaining contact with a form or intelligents higher than my own.

You see, Amos, Possibly you may even have a higher I.Q. and education than I do. But you cannot match the infinite mind of God itself, nor will you likely ever achieve this domain as long as you choose to criticize and preserve your ego. Any of the negative emotions of Intolarance, Fear, Hatred, Jealousy etc. repel the vibratory forces necessary to stimulate the brain power of the infinite intelligent.

Moreover, it you keep fighting and maintain these negative unproductive states of mind you will never advance spritually our mentally beyond the human plane (small mind). An open mind on all subjects towards all people is paramount to success.

Unless, albeit one merely wishes to impress one's self for the rest of one's life while boring others and making countless scores of enemies.

So You Say, I can't prove everything I say here? So What! The higher mind is my education. And the word education come from the latin meaning to "draw out" and since I am divinely tapped into the source of the infinite intelligents through my faith, I can more than compensate for any amguity or un-supported documentation you may percieve.

You folks that are gathered here are discussing a subject, you percieve in a cetain way, but is un-provable too: but please forgive me for voicing my opinion here on something I have actually experienced.

I would like to think very much that a person that has the ACTUAL experience would not have to be barred or banned on talking about a subject he is quite physcially fluent in, i.e. cosmis consciousness.

Are you folks tapped into the Universal Intelligents? I rather doubt it, or there would be more unity in the discussion and zero argumentation.

A true person of education is a person of good will and communication. No one knows everything on a topic, and those that waist their time to squabbling know even less, even if they temporarily win their argument of being "right" through the tactic of rudeness and intolerence.

Who will listen or care anyway.... after they have offended all!

I would much rather be wrong and working in the right direction, that right and working in the wrong.

Dewey
(who would still like to be friends with Amos should he actually ever chose to become one, and not continuously find fault in my posts)

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Amos
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 09:36 AM

Thanks for the lucid exposition, Dewey...hmmmmmmmm.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Dewey
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 03:09 AM

Unity Repetition and Expansion, this is the higher mind that is available 24/7 and is always computing, serving, creating and expanding and always will, forever and ever.

It is utterly perfect and perfecting to the up teenth biliionth degree, which is why it is possible to set for yourself practically any goal into the higher mind and get a determined perfect answer that will guide you toward achieving anything.

Through utter chaos, comes the higher mind, determined and infinite to give us exactly what we want despite billions of so called "failures"

In the end God has his will, and no amount of chaos destruction fear hatred destruction, etc. can defeat the ultimate creative and perfecting purpose, that is the beginning and end ot everything in this world and beyond.

Dewey

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: chris nightbird childs
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 02:56 AM

There is no God, only the illusion of "self". Just a flesh cage, with a name, waiting to move to a higher plain...
It's all yin & yang. Everything is nothing is everything is nothing.......................

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Dewey
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 02:51 AM

Non-local knowing comes from the higher self (infinite intelligence) it is the first cause, guided by the sub-conscious entity, which guides our intuition and gives us relative thought suggestion in areas previous unfamiliar.

The higher self, is a bird's eye view of the lower self and is based upon the emotions of love and sex which leads to brain stimulation, motivation and relative information, based on an individual's ability to determine his will.

The universe is based on and grows through the following sources, The first cause, (this is God, the all-seeing eye, the universal intelligents) etc. etc.

The higher mind interacts with everything and everyone, including time itself, it is the oneness, the unifying source, infinity, i.e. God! The alpha and the omega, the first and the last.

Since everyone and everything on the planet is tapped into it, information as well as all thoughts from the past present and future are stored in it for playback. Playback occurs when experiences in our bodies and or thoughts through intention.

The state of one's mind and bodily emotions trigger the informational help the higher mind and provide retrievable data from its source, which is infinite and determined.

All thoughts, come from the following sources, you're own mind and its limited experience and store data over your life, The minds of others, and through the faculty of the Mastermind (the conceptual mind i.e God)

You can even program this mind (which I have done) to store (i.e upload) information obtained through the cosmic, for future playback, i.e. Have the godhead remind you to remember a fact related to something on thursday, at precisely the right moment needed to explain the information, specific to the goal you are, trying to reach to someone esle.

The high-mind knows the timeline and the need of what you are trying to do, better than you do.

It is a shorthand storage devise to compensate for a small brains that cannot handle that much data but still need the data available and in the specific detailed quantity that reflectes you wil at the perfect and precise moment the other person you are working with desires such information.

There is much on non-local information that I could discuss, but I am still learning more about this.

Just remember emotions and goal driven instruction guide the higher mind as it is goal center as well (i.e. a perfecting creator know as God) As being God and all knowing, it is all instructive and unifying as well, and taps the thoughts and emtions of everyone on the planet, but only the positive emotions, stimulate the psychic inclinations thought orgainzed thought suggestion and will, all necvessary to "read the information braod cast by other individuals regaurding the universal intellect itself.


Gain complete control over your mind, and eliminate and negative imput as it will kepp your mind from vibrating at level that is necessary to pick up the thoughts of others, You must be inspired to accomplish ONE Specific objective through repition of thought in order to reach the higher mind and communicate with the source of this outside information.

Please read Think and Grow Rich, by Napolean Hill if you wish to gain complete control over this higher domain, which is only available to a person who is "ready" to recieve it.

Dewey

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Amos
Date: 04 Dec 04 - 01:50 AM

Has nuffink to do with devils, Bill D and you know it!!

A

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Dec 04 - 11:51 PM

"A model which insists on knowledge being generated and located in the body/brain complex only cannot account for a single instance of non-local knowing."

non-local knowing seems to be a fairly arcane concept of quantum mechanics, and I see no reason that a model that simply doubts (not 'dis-believes'...just formal doubt) that the brain goes beyond bio-chemical complexity NEEDS to account for a concept that is only a theory itself!

If I read you correctly, I think I see the same assumptions present here.....that you 'know' that stuff like 'non-local knowing' exists, and that we must therefore account for it...

as to "clinical studies and case histories"...*grin*..."The devil may cite scripture for his purpose."

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Amos
Date: 03 Dec 04 - 07:22 PM

Nothing wrong with honing, anyway! :D. Dossey cites clinical studies and case histories in his work, which is why I refer you to him.

A model which insists on knowledge being generated and located in the body/brain complex only cannot account for a single instance of non-local knowing.

Just as one white crow will offset the theory that all crows are black, in the presence of such an exception the model has to be revisited because the anomaly condemns it as incomplete.

This has a lot to do with the mechanisms that underlie the self-created realities we refer to as beliefs, but it is logically valid regardless.

However the circularity of the discussion is wearisome, as it appears the case histories and clinical studies do not overcome the predisposition to believe they cannot occur. Unfortunately I do not have the time or resources to hand to dig up citations for you, or I would gladly do so.



A

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Bill D
Date: 03 Dec 04 - 11:31 AM

(review of Bergson)
" Bergson did, however, emphasize the importance of intuition over intellect, as he promoted the idea of two opposing currents: inert matter in conflict with organic life as the vital urge strives toward free creative action."

(from abstract of one of Dossey's lectures)
"Historically, illness and health have been viewed as "physical" issues: disease is due to malfunctioning atoms, molecules, cells, and tissues; health is due to their proper functioning. The mind and the body are seen as fundamentally separate. Dr. Dossey explores the flaw in this logic, presenting scientific evidence to show that not even common diseases can be understood without taking into account the manifestations of a patient's mental state, emotions, thoughts, attitudes, and perceived meanings. Consciousness does, in fact, occupy a significant place in the origins of health and illness. This model coheres with good science and substantiates humankind's persistent conviction that there is "something more" than the physical."


well...what can I say? Once, a few years ago, two Jehovah's Witnesses came to my door and entreated me to hear them, and I spent 30 minutes in 'lively' debate. As you might guess, I questioned some basic premises they propounded..*grin*...even AFTER they read me relevant Scripture! So...they went away, promising to return! In a couple days, they returned, accompanied by a 'more experienced' elder, who proceeded to address my concerns by reading me MORE, (but in his opinion 'clearer' scripture! He/they simply could not relate to my position that they were **starting** with assumptions and premises that I did not accept, and thus our discussion was largely useless in so far as it could be expected to convince either side.
   The suggestion that I read more Bergson, or immerse myself in some Dossey, seems to me to be a VERY similar situation!


I DO realize that there are many ways to approach the issue of reality and it's possible modes, and MANY well written expositions of the various theories....Bergson and Dossey included. But this simply does not deal with the central point that I have tried to make in dozens of posts for several years: *most aspects of the theories and attitudes that I (semi)-respectfully debate in here require certain premises that are themselves a matter of opinion and speculation*


I understand, as Dossey notes, that patient attitude and mental state CAN affect aspects of the healing process....and I understand that certain personal experiences, such as you, Amos, and Little Hawk and Two Bears..etc...occasionally refer to cannot be denied or discounted...you DID experience something.
   It is even possible that *I*, someday, might have a comparable experience. None of this, however, addresses my concern about making unwarrented assumptions about the ultimate causality of any of all of these experiences.

Somewhere, I remarked that I do note, accept and appreciate the phenomena involved in Bio-feedback medical issues. Our mental state can help with certain conditions of our physical state....(even petting a cat or dog can help reduce stress and improve heart function). Where we differ is what we accept as the origin and driving force of such responses. We ALL know we have a 'brain', and that damage to it can alter what 'we' are....and almost all of us (me included) use words like 'mind' and 'soul' and 'spirit' at times. Those words are extremely useful in expressing human emotions, and such like phenomena, that reference to *brain function* can't match! This does not demonstrate, however, that it IS - ultimately - anything beyond extremely complex brain function...It 'might' be, but it still remains a belief, not a 'fact', in the formal use of the term. (Remember..I do consider that "having an experience" is a fact, but this does not necessarily constitute an explanation of its cause).

We must sorta accept that we (meaning both 'us' and humans in general) have VERY different deeply set tendencies towards what we accept as 'truth' 'reality' ..etc. And, as I stated and STILL assert, much of the debate often gets bogged down in linguistic confusion and "equivocation" over how to use some of the terms that are tossed about. When I refer to a 'valid' argument, it means something very narrow. When I discuss 'proof', I **mean** the definition used in formal application of the scientific method...etc.
   In many of the threads where many sides and individuals debate, the terms are often very loosely used and end up no more useful than several cooks debating whether a dish is "TOO salty" or "good"! If you like it that way, eat it that way...but if you're going to open restaurant or package a product commercially, you have to state the ingredients so that I can apply MY standards. (weak metaphor, I guess...but..)

once again...final disclaimer: None of this 'proves' that the stuff I don't accept doesn't exist, it merely notes the status of the claim: that is, belief. As long as I can describe possible alternative ultimate causes for a phenomenon that cannot, by definition, be tested objectively, then we are at an impass.

But all this sure hones our various thought processes about how to state our opinions, hmmmmmm?

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Amos
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 11:33 PM

Bill D:

Start with Maslow. Good solid research on the range of human potentiality.

You have probably already read and dismissed Bergson, as you preferred Nietzche or maybe even the impenetrable Liebniz or even that whacked-out Austrian Wittgenstein. But Bergson faced unflinchingly certain aspects of truth that none of those were able to address, for whatever reasons. If you want a modern and less erudite cast on the issues, look up the case histories behind the writings of Dr. Larry Dossey.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Dec 04 - 09:06 PM

eeeek~! It's BACK!....

I have re-read about half of this, and I am amazed. And I guess I am so VERY glad it went away while Getaway & Craft season was upon me...I'd have blown a circuit for sure, trying to keep up with it.

And I'm still convinced..... nay, certain, that logical,linguistic equivocations are involved in many of the opinions that I take issue with.

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 01 Dec 04 - 11:07 PM

Angel Baby,

Scale -- is what I'm working for !!

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Amos
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 11:09 PM

And I knew that the answers I needed were beyond the scope of either science or psychology. They still are.


Daylia:

That depends entirely on the school of psychology. Obviously if you stick to old-boy Skinnerian SR chains you won't find the answer to precognition, asleep or not.

If you read Maslow, Marilyn Fergusen (Aquarian Conspiracy), Henri Bergson, Richard Bach, Wayne Dyer, Dr. Larry Dossery, and on and on you will see them all pointing at a non-local model of awareness which makes non-local perception through space-time more normal looking. I suspect it takes a LOT more energy to keep knowing local and tied to the place where the wet-ware is, than it does to just know from whatever locale or point in time you choose to focus your attention. Keeping your knowing tied down to the hitching post of the body requires the maintenance of a lot of barriers that only seem to be useful.



A

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 06:34 PM

It's hard to keep a good thread down...

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: GUEST,angel_baby
Date: 30 Nov 04 - 05:55 PM

does anyone know where to find any articles on scales?

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: *daylia*
Date: 23 Oct 04 - 08:32 AM

Holy jumpin Amos, I've tried to wrap my neurons around your last post 4 times. I think I'm shorting out my wetware   help I'm droooooooowning.....

Satisfied?!? ;-)

Here's a situation similar to our "problem" here (I think) ... Imagine what might happen between two aliens who've landed on the Earth for the first time. There they are, standing beside the highway watching these odd-shaped, noisy stinky contraptions go by. One says "look look - it's a truck! It's red and it has 18 wheels!!"
The other says "no, you're wrong. It's a truck and it runs on gas and oil." The first one is a bit taken aback, thinks it over and says "but, but - it's a truck! It's red and it has 18 wheels!" The other digs his heels (or paws or fins or hooves or whatever) in even deeper and growls "no no NO. You're WRONG. It's a truck and it runs on gas and oil!!".

I do understand what you mean. Actually, it was the life-long experience of disconcerting precognitive dreams; accurate precognitive dreams - and needing to know how the h*** "I" (ie the "me" that requires a brain to interact here) could possibly have "known" what I'd seen in those dreams - that motivated me to explore spirituality in the first place. My own head had shown itself to be capable of the physically impossible, at least while sleeping. That felt so freaky and weird, even frightening - back then.

And I knew that the answers I needed were beyond the scope of either science or psychology. They still are.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Amos
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 04:19 PM

And in order to have any practical physical value or relevance at all, the memory of those visual experiences / images must be stored somehow, somewhere in the physical brain's neurological "wiring" - no matter what condition that brain was in at the moment of perception; conscious, semi-conscious, super-conscious or even unconscious.


You really love your wetware, doncha? :D. How about this -- visual memories are recreatable potentials of energy created by spiritual beings in seeking certain experiences conveniently labeled as "past". They are non-material potentialities until regenerated by the spiritual viewpoint, at which point htey are re-created in very high-frequency patterns of mental energy witht he postulated dimensionality of the viewpoint and thus viewed. The act of viewing and interacting with memory CAN (but does not necessarily) cause the stimulation of the being's connection to the brain, producing electro-chemical brain responses in some instances.

This applies to non-traumatic memories. Images which are highly charged with physical pain or emotional duress operate slightly differently, from the view point of experience. Basic mechanism is same same.

The brain is just an external interface to the physical universe, independent of the memory process.

---

There's a perfectly good model for you which not only accounts for memory but also accounts for the occasionally stranmge phenomenon such as remember past lives, out-of-body experience (near-death or otherwise), or being able to see another person's memories without hearing about them first. The brain-as-storage-container model doesn't account for these.

IF you ar elocked in to the wetware dependent model, then you are left with the elimination of anomalous data as unreliable data. A facile solution to the cognitive dissonance presented. But not if it keeps coming up over and over.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: *daylia*
Date: 22 Oct 04 - 08:13 AM

Matter, on the other hand, matters less when one has imbibed spirits...

LOL! Thanks Art!

Now, does spirit matter less when one has imbibed flesh??


People see perfectly well without any brain at all, if they are not too thrashed.

Yes, I see your point Amos. And in order to have any practical physical value or relevance at all, the memory of those visual experiences / images must be stored somehow, somewhere in the physical brain's neurological "wiring" - no matter what condition that brain was in at the moment of perception; conscious, semi-conscious, super-conscious or even unconscious.

I almost took you up on the challenge, but have had no time and have problem with the wording. I'll PM you soon

Hey Bill, no probs. You seem to be doing just peachy as it is! And if you'd ever like to try a bit of cream on those peaches .... :-)

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 21 Oct 04 - 07:32 PM

I doubt that spirit matters. Matter, on the other hand, matters less when one has imbibed spirits. This whole discussion is only of any real practical value if one is here to appreciate it. If one is dead (or hasn't been born yet) it does not matter in the least. It was Descarte who said that pretty much. Thinking about the matter of the fact makes that real. Oyherwise it is not even there. The vagueness of it all is all we are discussing actually.

Matter of fact, thanks for a spirited thread.

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 07:55 PM

the relevance I draw from the report is simply that there ARE often alternate explanations for phenomena. It does not mean the same explanation holds in every case. Synaesthesia does seem to be a working hypothesis for why some people see colors around some other people in some cases. There are various other hypotheses in other situations. What we need is to discover if & how an aura can exist no matter what the subjective state of the observer.

(*daylia*...I have been pondering some of your comments and 'offers' back up there ^ for several weeks...I almost took you up on the challenge, but have had no time and have problem with the wording. I'll PM you soon)

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 07:25 PM

Well, the statement

"Rather than assuming that people give off auras or energy fields that can only be detected by rigged cameras or trained seers, we need only assume that the phenomenon of synaesthesia is taking place."

seems rather absolute; as though it's either auras or synaesthesia, and synaesthesia explains it all.

Instead of "need only assume" he could have said "may sometimes assume."

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Wolfgang
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 05:44 PM

Clint,

I have posted the explanation how it usually goes (for people without synesthesia) some other place in this thread. My explanation has one weak point, namely that some reports of auras are very different from the usual visual halo effects.

I was pleased to read this new explanation for it closes a gap in our understanding of aura reports. The new explanation was never meant to explain aura-like experiences in normal people.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Amos
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 03:47 PM

But Amos, in order to have physically discussed them with you at all the conscious memories or "visual recordings" of these reported OBE's must have been "processed", stored, accessed etc through the person's physical brain.

Memory, including visual memory - is a function or "product" of the brain - whether the image(s) were perceived by the physical eyes in waking life, in a dream or OBE, in a vision or even a hallucination.


Why? IF you assume the body does the viewing and you would be unable to see without it, your argument might make sense. Memory is as much a "product" of the brain as live communication is a "product" of a telephone -- sure, it is a very complex instruemnt and you can't trace all the workings of it, and every time you pick it up someone is ocmmunicating through it -- but that doesn't mean the phone is creating the communications!!

People see perfectly well without any brain at all, if they are not too thrashed.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: *daylia*
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 03:22 PM

But Amos, in order to have physically discussed them with you at all the conscious memories or "visual recordings" of these reported OBE's must have been "processed", stored, accessed etc through the person's physical brain.

Memory, including visual memory - is a function or "product" of the brain - whether the image(s) were perceived by the physical eyes in waking life, in a dream or OBE, in a vision or even a hallucination.

Hmmm, maybe "all visual images available for physical conscious perusal are a function and product of the brain" would be better?

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Amos
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 02:44 PM

I disagree that all visual images are products of the brain of the beholder.

I have discussed numerous instances of out-of-body experiences with others in which they were quite capable of drumming up visual recordings while operating independently of the body. Mental images are th stuff of mental mechanism but are not built of brain-stuff. They are generated by beings using brains to anchor themselves with. Vive la difference.

A

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 02:40 PM

That's interesting. I hadn't thought of synaesthesia. However, this statement --

"Rather than assuming that people give off auras or energy fields that can only be detected by rigged cameras or trained seers, we need only assume that the phenomenon of synaesthesia is taking place."

-- seems to assume there are a whole lot of synaesthetics around.

Synaesthesia doubtless explains some aura sightings, but assuming that it explains all is not exactly scientific.

Bogus reductionism turns science into just another belief system. Carl Sagan for one made some pretty fanciful explanations that I think did science no service.

clint

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: *daylia*
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 12:51 PM

All visual images are "products of the brain of the beholder".

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Wolfgang
Date: 20 Oct 04 - 12:23 PM

Some may like to read this short press release about a neuropsychological theory explaining what makes some people experience something they describe as an aura?

Dr Jamie Ward, author of the study, says: "A popular notion is that some people have a magical ability to detect the hidden emotions of others by seeing a colourful 'aura' or energy field that they give off. Our study suggests a different interpretation. These colours do not reflect hidden energies being given off by other people, rather they are created entirely in the brain of the beholder."

The reference to the full article is found at the end of the press release.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Dewey
Date: 03 Sep 04 - 02:13 AM

Daylia, I was having esoteric brain drain, as well as post happy euphoria.

But I did discover that the universe is perfect, and that a perfectly enlighten human being can live in peace with other perfectly enlighten human beings. The infinite mind creates perfect peace and equality of all humans, and also provides interactive discernment in how to make peace possible among all equal likeminded individuals.

We are spiritual beings First, and Human Beings Second. unfortunately Our World Does't Work, Because we are not tuned into the "real" world, just our petty egocentric, singular minded dissident world.

God is Perfect, as is the universe, and we too could obtain perfection through the intergration of our higher selves, serving the universal purpose of this perfect and higher force.

This is why I belive in the New Earth (new people or enlightended people, or judged people) and a New Heaven (people dwelling in peace and perfection in the likeness and wholeness of God himself, the current heaven does not contain mankind, but in the new heaven mankind will be brought into the fold)

Again, the above is all theological and I cannot prove it. Just a Wide-eyed Theory, However maybe if we are going to evolve, the would also have to be judgement as not everyone would be willing to evolve, (all theology talk about free choice after all, and not everyone WANTS to be nice)

Dewey

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Two_bears
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 07:07 PM

I can also show YOU how to do them. Now if you could show ME how to hear, feel & see the things you & Two Bears do, we'd have something! (Others have tried...I think my antenna was damaged when a copy of Kant's "Critique of Pure Reason" fell on it in 1966....)

Bill:

When I give a workshop in your area; contact the person who is the scheduling the workshop, and tell them that I have invited you to attend the workshop as my guest.

That offer is only for you, and Wolfgang.

ANL - 2B

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: *daylia*
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 10:32 AM

MY secret of 'healing' is to only do tricks that I am sure of, and that I can replicate...*grin*

Bill my dear, I also know without a doubt that my "tricks" work, as long as the person at the receiving end is ready to allow the energy to do it's thing. If you are genuinely interested, you (and anyone else here) are MOST welcome to PM me anytime for a demonstration, healing work or more information.

I can also teach you, in about 5-10 minutes, how to practice these simple and enjoyable "tricks" yourself - to benefit not only yourself but your family and friends, your pets, your plants or anyone/thing else you'd care to work with.

Unfortunately, unlike html tags life-force energy itself does not lend itself to being "typed out" or otherwise presented via the written word, for you to gaze at and study. But it does lend itself, most excellently and beneficially, to direct physical experience.

So, like Nike says - Just Do It! What have you got to lose? I guarantee you that life-force energy IS the Real Thing. The worst it could possibly do for you is nothing ... and that depends totally on you and your subconsious mental/emotional state. So anytime you feel ready to bite the bullet, just let me know. I'd LOVE to work with you!   :-)

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 10:04 AM

*daylia*...why, thank you for the cheer!....hovever, I cheat! MY secret of 'healing' is to only do tricks that I am sure of, and that I can replicate...*grin*

I can also show YOU how to do them. Now if you could show ME how to hear, feel & see the things you & Two Bears do, we'd have something! (Others have tried...I think my antenna was damaged when a copy of Kant's "Critique of Pure Reason" fell on it in 1966....)

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Wolfgang
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 05:46 AM

I am an energy healer......I am not the lealer. (Two Bears)

Even if we had 100 documented instant healings; they would still be anecdotal. (Two Bears)

Not would, could! Number is not the relevant factor, proper design and reporting is. Even 10,000 reports of the style in this and similar threads would still be anecdotes. 20 to 40 cases (depending upon which power you aim at) with the proper design and reporting could be very convincing.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Two_bears
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 01:05 AM

Not impossible, but certainly a time-consuming endevour.

Don't forget costly.

One would need to have an Xray, MRI, etc then have a person hold the Xray or MRI for the chain of custody recording when the test was taken.

Then have the person receive a healing, Then run duplicate tests to demonstrate the change.

A week ago monday; I was running around to antique stores, and art galleries with a HUNA student Tiffany H. We went into this art gallery, and met an elderly lady named Peggy (I don't recall if she gave her last name) She asked Tiffany and I where we were from, and what we did, and when I said "I'm an energy healer" she asked me to work on her back because he had hurt her back while hanging a heavy painting and frame. I agreed to do what I could do to help. After a few minutes; I removed my hands from her back, and Tiffany and I continued to walk around looking at the art work. Tiffany found a painting of a japanese woman in a blue and black kimono she wanted; so she asked me to bring Peggy over to buy the painting. I asked Peggy how she was feeling, and she said "I can't believe the pain is gone. Then every person (including the owners of the art gallery) were told about the healing of her back.

Last July; I did a healing for my neighbor. He was almost killed when the car he was in was hit by a train. He spent more than a year in a full body cast in Vanderbilt, and he has had back pain for the past 30 years. One of my neighbors told him that I was an energy healer, and he didn't believe it so he went to the property manager and asked "What is this about Two Bears being a healer?" She told him that I was a healer (because I had done healings for her oldest daughter, and a few other people on the property, then she called me and asked me to come over to the office. I went over and Dean asked me about whether I am a healer or not, and I offered to do a healing there on the spot. Later he told me that he had 7 or 8 hours of relief, and the caustic pain killers he usually took only gave him about 3 hours of relief.

ANL - 2B

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Two_bears
Date: 02 Sep 04 - 12:36 AM

If those healings were so quick and convincing it would be easy for someone with the knowledge of research methods to conduct a study that would make it to Science or Nature. Some years later even an invitation to Stockholm might follow..

The healings described happened exactly as described.

Try to contact someone with the relevant knowledge. If you are right I shall read about it in a journal and not just as case anecdotes. You can win fame. What could you lose except perhaps some illusions and even that shouldn't be considered a loss.

You are forgetting something. "I am not the lealer. The healing is done by the higher powers, and by the recepient's subconscious mind being willing to be healed.

Even if we had 100 documented instant healings; they would still be anecdotal.

ANL - 2B

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: GUEST,*daylia*
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 11:08 AM

your welcome, *daylia*...it's nice to have a trick that helps..*smile*.

Well thanks again for sharing your 'tricks' with me, you cyber-healer you!

Who's the greatest cyber-healer? Bill! Yo Bill!
Who's the charming disbeliever? Bill! Yo Bill!
Wolf may be our analyser, criticizer, synthesizer
But HAIL our chord-change synchronizer - Bill! Yo Bill!

:-)   daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: GUEST,*daylia*
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 10:33 AM

The word I use to refer to whatever mysterious force moved that slipped disc back into place - (and I DID feel that flow of wonderful heat down my spine, and I DID feel and hear the bones moving - *click! click!*, and then the pain was GONE!!!:-) - is mana loa or spiritual life-force energy. That's because the technique originated in ancient Hawaii, so the language of Hawaiian mysticism is the language of HUNA.

If this healing had been done in a laboratory setting, perhaps a scientist would prefer to coin new terminology from quantum physics for example, to refer to this invisible force. Wonderful! A scientific term would no doubt be more acceptable, inviting far less "attack" than a mystical one. But no matter what term is selected to refer to it, the nature of the energy itself and the "miraculous" effects it can produce would remain unchanged.

One problem I can forsee with using HUNA healing techniques as science experiments is that the results of any kind of energetic healing work depend entirely on the subconscious emotional/mental state of the healee (ie their readiness to let go of the problem and allow the healing to take place). For that reason, energetic healing work is never "guaranteed", under any circumstances. THere can be instantly "miraculous" results (ie Robert's shoulder, Tammy F's hand, my back) or none at all (as in the case of the lady at the drumming circle with her long list of ailments that caused her pain, but earned her MANY benefits).

I think it would take many years of very patient experimentation, under controlled conditions to document scientifically how and when HUNA healings work -- and probably many MANY more years after that to figure out how and why they work, using scientific terminology and methods.

Not impossible, but certainly a time-consuming endevour.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Wolfgang
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 09:36 AM

if the repositioning of that slipped disc and vertabrae in my back was an illusion, then having it slip out of place must have been an illusion too, and so was all that pain I suffered for so long. (Daylia)

All experimenting and the cleverly thought out (placebo) control groups are usually not for (dis)proving what happens (you don't need a long study for get agreement about that) but for testing (and possibly disproving) different interpretations.

If someone says 'It did work for me, so I know spiritual energy...' a critique from a scientist usually does not attack the first part but the so I know... part.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Wolfgang
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 09:25 AM

Daylia,

by now you should know from reading my many posts that I see a possible illusion less likely in what happens but in the interpretation. I have said ad nauseam that my issue is with the interpretation of what is observed.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Matter and Spirit
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Sep 04 - 09:06 AM

your welcome, *daylia*...it's nice to have a trick that helps..*smile*.

and if Two Bears does also, great....I will never be opposed to feeling better, and if people leave Two Bears 'feeling better', I am glad. If I tend to reserve judgement as to the precise mechanism and causality, .....well, maybe it's just my destiny to be that way... ;>0