Starting a Singers Club - Legalities?

Subject: RE: Starting a Singers Club - Legalities?
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 05:29 PM

Maybe we've just been lucky - and ignorant - but here in Juneau Alaska we've had no trouble at all with our two-year-old Gold Street Music, a performance-based monthly get together. The money is counted two different times - I take it home with me and itemize it then give it to another person who counts it and then puts it into their bank account. We keep a financial records book, complete with expenses - rental, poster copies, coffee and tea, paper products, with cookies and such brought from home by us and others.

We have sccumulated as much as $2000 at one time. We were thinking of bringing in an occasional paid guest artist but when our venue burnt down last year we donated it to the organization instead. We may go with the guest artists later.

We haven't held Gold Street Music yet this summer/fall because there happened to be conflicting or alternatively scheduled concerts the last couple of months but we plan to start again in October.

We charge $5.00 per person, with performers and producers free. It is great fun.

Subject: RE: Starting a Singers Club - Legalities?
From: M.Ted
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 05:04 PM

Puzzled--I think it is important for you to understand that starting singing club (whatever you might mean by that) and opening a bank account essentially have little or nothing to do with each other--and, under nearly every circumstance, of the two, opening a bank account (which seems to be your focus) is much easier --

Howard Jones does bring up an interesting point--any public venue that provides entertainment requires a license, though an informal social gathering wouldn't--

Subject: RE: Starting a Singers Club - Legalities?
From: GUEST,highlandman
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 04:48 PM

Sorry, I should have said "as _I GATHER_ it is Over There," since I of course don't _know_ ... just going by what I've gleaned from the Cat.
-Glenn

Subject: RE: Starting a Singers Club - Legalities?
From: GUEST,highlandman
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 04:46 PM

Yes, Howard, there are copyright issues. Strictly speaking the club would need to be paying royalties if copyrighted material were performed, but the process is not as clean in the US as it is Over There. You are expected to satisfy the demands of all the shakedown -- er, excuse me, performing rights -- agencies (i.e. ASCAP, BMI and that new one I can't remember) but there is no statutory license that does it all with one stop.
On the other hand I suppose you would be under the radar (for a while), but then again there is that Doing The Right Thing idea as well...
Which is why I can't find any such similar gig in my own area and why I'll be double-dog-danged if I'm going to go to all the hassle of starting one myself.
-Glenn

Subject: RE: Starting a Singers Club - Legalities?
From: curmudgeon
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 03:43 PM

It would really help, G.Puzzled, if you told us where youe are located. It's quite possible that there's a Mudcatter in your state who's done what you're trying, or knows someone who has.

Forming a non-profit corporation in NH means filling out a fairly simple form (we did have an attorney help) five signators and a check for $25.00. In our case the form was recieved on a Friday and registered on Monday. It might be that easy where you are.

Subject: RE: Starting a Singers Club - Legalities?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 02:36 PM

Are there copyright issues to consider? In the UK, any venue where live music is performed has to have a licence from the Performing Rights Society, which is the organisation which manages composers' copyright. Unless you can guarantee that absolutely no copyright material will be performed (and folk music is not necessarily non-copyright) you need a PRS licence, for which a fee is of course payable.

In England and Wales (but not, I believe, in Scotland) you would also need a licence issued by the Local Authority.

I suspect these are some of the reasons why there is no tradition of the House Party over here. Folk clubs almost invariably take place in pubs, which will usually already have the necessary licences. It surely can't be to do with the availability of beer.

Subject: RE: Starting a Singers Club - Legalities?
From: M.Ted
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 01:23 PM

Some places require that you file a DBA ("doing business as") statement with the county or state, if you plan to transact business under a "fictitious" name, which is pretty easy and inexpensive--

No one requires that you incorporate, or that you become a non-profit corporation to open a bank account--

Subject: RE: Starting a Singers Club - Legalities?
From: GUEST,highlandman
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 12:56 PM

Banks make it sound hard to open a business account without being incorporated, but it isn't. You just tell them to set it up as either a sole proprietorship (one sig) or partnership (multiple sigs) and you use your SSN(s). The organization's name goes on it as DBA (doing business as) but you should check beforehand to make sure it isn't being used, just in case you wanted to call yourselves McDonald's or Chrysler or something...
The only downside is that you and your partners are liable financially for everything, including back taxes and penalties should the authorities decide there is any money to be had out of you. And they can get quite creative and nasty, even when you think there's nothing in it.
The IRS came down very hard on banks in the US about 15 years ago, and now they are all quite anal about having all the tax identification info correct, to prove they aren't helping you launder money for terrorists or Nigerian diplomats.
-Glenn

Subject: RE: Starting a Singers Club - Legalities?
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 12:00 PM

I've never had any problem (in the US) in starting a bank account for an organization or business, whether incorporated or not.

Subject: RE: Starting a Singers Club - Legalities?
From: GUEST,Puzzled
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 09:54 AM

Thanks for the suggestions. I really would like to have a bank account under the name of the organization, but I'm not sure this is possible without going into incorporation, etc. I'll keep researching.

Subject: RE: Starting a Singers Club - Legalities?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 08:20 AM

Reading through , I am left with the impression that in the 'Land of Opportunity/Land of the Free' , it is impossible to open a bank account for a Non Profit local Club or Society , without a lot of red tape and hassle . Here in UK we have NO difficulty opening a cheque account for a Folk Club , though not , as far as I know , with a credit card facility . We had registered signatories for Uxbridge , of which two had to sign cheques , purely as a safeguard as it was not OUR money , but was the Club Members money .
Surely if an old fashioned country like U K can do this , it must be possible in the USA !

Subject: RE: Starting a Singers Club - Legalities?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 16 Aug 07 - 12:53 AM

We held one in the upstais of a bar, with the intent the bar would make money by selling drink & we had the place for free for about a year or two. We'd drop $2 per person every Wed nite & one trusted person held onto the cash until we found a guest singer we wanted. Worked fine until the bar decided that they weren't making enough to make it worth while, they were nice to have us have so long of a go at it too. It was called the Boston Traditional Singers Club

Barry

Subject: RE: Starting a Singers Club - Legalities?
From: Maryrrf
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 07:00 PM

Would it be possible to just sign up for an EIN number and open an account?
http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=98350,00.html

Subject: RE: Starting a Singers Club - Legalities?
From: maeve
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 06:40 PM

Singers' Clubs on the other hand are usually not beset with moral issues. Rather, members must determine whose turn it is to bring the refreshments and whether or not to discuss the definitions of folk music!

maeve

Subject: RE: Starting a Singers Club - Legalities?
From: wilco
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 06:01 PM

Swingers' Clubs are illegal in many parts of the world. There are some serious moral issues

Subject: RE: Starting a Singers Club - Legalities?
From: SINSULL
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 04:47 PM

We hold Song Circles in people's homes but don't collect money. Refreshments are donations to a buffet table. House Concerts have a fee which goes to the artist. Many are willing to appear in an intimate setting for a night's bed and board and a small take to cover expenses. Sales of CDs also offsets expenses plus gets their music out there.

If you have to have a bank account, open one in your own name. It doesn't sound as if there will be enough money to cause serious tax problems or even tempt.

I agree with Susan - start off informal and small and see where it goes.

Subject: RE: Starting a Singers Club - Legalities?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 04:29 PM

I think that starting the club very informally should come first and then when you have "enough" people to share the workload, let that group decide on the financial structure, bylaws, etc. Otherwise you'll likely soon be a boss, and a burned-out one.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Starting a Singers Club - Legalities?
From: GUEST,highlandman
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 04:14 PM

You can incorporate as a 501(c)(7) - tax exempt as a non-profit, but not tax-deductible, there's a difference. In most states that's pretty cheap ($25-$50) and doesn't require an attorney's signature. But you still may run afoul of zoning and building codes, and some municipalities are very aggressive about enforcing business license ordinances. You may not think you are a business, but they will because it is in their financial interest to do so. So in my experience there's a lot more potential trouble with the locals than with the state and federal level, where things are pretty well cut and dried.
You can read all about 501(c)(7) on www.irs.gov, and your state's Secretary of State probably has a website that tells you all about incorporating as a non-profit in your state. As for keeping the locals off your back, good luck.
I agree, the best thing is to keep it strictly informal, but hostile neighbors can shut you down in a heartbeat if you go that way.
-Glenn

Subject: RE: Starting a Singers Club - Legalities?
From: curmudgeon
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 04:04 PM

Depending on where you live, such a procedure can be fairly simple and cheap. Incorporating as a Non Profit here in NH costs $25.00 to the state and$5.00 to the town clerk Where are you located?   You might want to find a singer who's a lawyer to help with paperwork.

But really, for what you've talked about, it would seem best to keep it informal and operate on a cash system -- Tom

Subject: RE: Starting a Singers Club - Legalities?
From: M.Ted
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 03:54 PM

It's seems complicated because you are approaching the bank as if you are a business, which you are not--

You don't need money or bank accounts for people to get together and sing informally. All you need is people and a place, and, generally, if you've got a group of people, between them, they'll be plenty of ideas about places.

If you really need a checking account, you can set up one in your own name, and print whatever name you want to use on the checks. It isn't really likely you'll even need to do this, though, since you don't really have to deal with much money--it is folk music, after all;-)
-

Subject: RE: Starting a Singers Club - Legalities?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 03:52 PM

A joint account with BOTH Signatures required stops any one person plundering the kitty ! And a set of basic 'By Laws' written down dosent do anyharm ! Good Luck

Subject: RE: Starting a Singers Club - Legalities?
From: Susan of DT
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 03:18 PM

Are your houses big enough to run the circle at home? That's what we do and what most of the circles we go to do. Most move around from house to house. Ours has stayed in our house. You can have people bring snacks, so there does not need to be much money involved. We also have occasional house concerts - we just give the performer the gate, having warned them that it won't be much and generally get performers between other gigs in neighboring cities (it helps to be between NYC and Phily). So, again, there really doesn't have to be money involved.

If you do want/need to have a fund, either put it in one person's account who you trust or write up a group set of bylaws with officers - not a terribly big deal.

Good luck and let me know when it is ready, so I can put it on the permathread. Where are you, Puzzled?

Subject: Starting a Singers Club - Legalities?
From: GUEST,Puzzled
Date: 15 Aug 07 - 03:07 PM

Another friend and myself would like to start a Singer's Club in our town. It would mainly be organized as a song circle, with participants paying a small amount, say $5.00 a head, for refreshments, renting the space, etc. We'd also like to have a kitty established so that we can, occasionally, book an artist that we admire every now and then. We'd like to open a bank account under the name of the organization so that we can keep the money safely and so that we can write occasional checks. But, it all seems so complicated! When we get to the bank it's "Are you a corporation"..."Um, no".   "Are you a registered non-profit?".   "No, we aren't out to make a profit, but we aren't a registered charity either."    If you say you're an organization they want to see the articles of incorporation, by-laws, officers, etc. We're only two friends who want to start a singer's club. There seems to be no concept of a small informal club that gets together to do things and wants a way of managing their money.

Does anybody know the easiest way to handle this????

We are in the United States, BTW.