BS: Indicted: Death By Internet

Subject: RE: BS: Indicted: Death By Internet
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 19 May 08 - 08:59 AM

Hint hint: it is Portugese.

Also, my current fave new band. Without the grupo attached.

Subject: RE: BS: Indicted: Death By Internet
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 19 May 08 - 02:46 AM

That must be a different site from Babelfish then. As I said. Fantasist.

Subject: RE: BS: Indicted: Death By Internet
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 19 May 08 - 01:01 AM

I don't believe it's a criminal court, Chaos. It's just a federal court.

Subject: RE: BS: Indicted: Death By Internet
From: GUEST,Chief Chaos
Date: 18 May 08 - 05:32 PM

By violating a TOS you are breaking a voluntary contract with the entity providing the service who may then deny you that service. It is not and has never been a "crime" to violate the TOS because it is not a "legally" binding contract.

What you do while violating the TOS may be a crime.

In this case, although I feel that the harrasment was evil and certainly contributed to the death of the young lady (and is truly a tragedy)I think that trying to somehow legally hold her responsible in a criminal court is truly stretching the applicability and jurisdiction of the current law.

In a civil case, such as the O.J. Simpson case, I think she might be found guilty. This could only happen if the defense in the case did not counter with a claim that the parents were guilty of negligence in not monitoring the young lady's interactions on the internet.

I know several "experts" that would argue that one person can't make another person "feel" any way about any thing (aside from actual physical contact). A person must choose to feel "bad" about themselves based on what another person or persons have said or implied. That's a completely clinical assesment of course.

Where were the people who should have been countering what these evil people said? Did no one ever hear her cry? Did no one ever tell her that some people are just assholes and need to be ignored?

Subject: RE: BS: Indicted: Death By Internet
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 May 08 - 05:06 PM

I'd hate it if the country I lived in was one where guns were more widely owned and easier to get hold of - but I doubt very much if that kind of thing makes much difference to the number of suicides. There are other ways of doing it readily available, as in this sad case.

Here's a link to suicide statistics for a range of countries - it varies greatly and the US is somewhere in the middle range. But there doesn't seem to be any particular relationship between gun ownership in a country and the actual rates of suicide.

Subject: RE: BS: Indicted: Death By Internet
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 18 May 08 - 03:39 PM

"I was not aware that a gun was involved in this suicide ... ??"

It wasn't, the girl hanged herself.

My point was that far more suicides could be prevented by passing sane gun control laws (firearms the most prevalent method for committing suicide in the US--just over 50% of all successful suicides involve firearms), than going on internet witch hunts, and demanding laws be changed out of a desire for vengeance.

That's what gave us the Patriot Act, after all.

The authorities were able to quickly trace the MySpace account, which was in the mother's name. However, she apparently wasn't the person doing the nasty--it was her daughter and an "employee" of their family home business who was 18 years old at the time, who were guilty of logging the messages.

Subject: RE: BS: Indicted: Death By Internet
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 18 May 08 - 03:26 PM

I was not aware that a gun was involved in this suicide ... ??

The common law and common statues do NOT PROHIBIT one from using an "alias," "nickname," "handle," or "stage name."

Laws in most places DO PROHIBIT any and all such usage to conceal identity or to pretend to be a different person with the intent to commit fraud or other crimes.

A difficulty in this case is that in most places "bullying" is not a statutory crime, or is so ill-defined in existing laws that prosecution is virtually impossible. When the requirement to "prove" to a jury that there was intent to cause harm is added, even laws that might exist in some places can be extremely difficult to enforce or to prosecute.

I'm afraid I don't see the "dire consequences to internet freedom" being predicted by numerous pundits for this prosecution. When you register to use a site you are making a contract. You are expected to use a "real name" so that it is known who agreed to the contract. This does not preclude your using any "web name" you choose on any sites I've seen, although the contract you agree to could impose some limits. If you violate the terms of the contract the web site has a valid claim against you. IF YOU GAVE A FALSE NAME, that you used to "make the contract" for your participation in the agreement, with the intent to cause harm to the site or to others using it, you ARE GUILTY of CRIMINAL FRAUD, as is clearly punishable under what I've seen of the Federal statute prosecuters are attempting to apply to this case.

I haven't found the full statute being cited (yet), and can see significant difficulties in "making the case" in this instance; but if the statute is as reported there's no great "stretch of logic" in its application here.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Indicted: Death By Internet
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 18 May 08 - 02:50 PM

Try Bablefish, Richard.

So sorry my literary allusions frighten you so.

Subject: RE: BS: Indicted: Death By Internet
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 18 May 08 - 02:12 PM

A conspiracy to commit a civil wrong can be a crime - at least here in England.

Fantasma, now I see the root of your name. You do indeed live in a fantasy world.

Subject: RE: BS: Indicted: Death By Internet
From: meself
Date: 18 May 08 - 01:55 PM

The Crucible is about perfectly innocent people hanged as witches.

These depressing events concern people doing reprehensible things, then having a paintball shot at their home, and people no longer being nice to them.

Subject: RE: BS: Indicted: Death By Internet
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 18 May 08 - 01:20 PM

Sorry.

Dunno. The site I swiped it off claimed it was a "Chinese proverb" but it is indeed the quotation I was thinking of.

Subject: RE: BS: Indicted: Death By Internet
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 18 May 08 - 01:19 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Indicted: Death By Internet
From: Amos
Date: 18 May 08 - 01:13 PM

"He who seeks vengeance must dig two graves: one for his enemy and one for himself"

That is a beauty. Who is it from?

The Crucible is a magnificent exposition of both sides of this silly tragedy.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Indicted: Death By Internet
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 18 May 08 - 12:49 PM

Thanks for the link, Jim. As I read it, echoes of Salem and 'The Crucible' were flashing through my mind.

And this quote, I had to go looking for, because I couldn't remember it exactly:

"He who seeks vengeance must dig two graves: one for his enemy and one for himself"

Subject: RE: BS: Indicted: Death By Internet
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 18 May 08 - 12:12 PM

There was a thoughtful article in the New Yorker about this: Friend Game: Behind the online hoax that led to a girl's suicide.

Subject: RE: BS: Indicted: Death By Internet
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 18 May 08 - 11:16 AM

But then, if this is the true result:

"...state lawmakers Friday gave final approval to a bill making cyber harassment illegal"

more than a few Mudcatters could be skating on thin ice, eh?

hehehehe

Subject: RE: BS: Indicted: Death By Internet
From: GUEST,Fantasma
Date: 18 May 08 - 10:16 AM

Sorry, but evil as the woman was for doing this to a kid, I believe the charges against her rise to the level of prosecutorial misconduct.

Also, the reality of suicide is this: females rarely succeed at committing suicide, but attempt it far more often than males. That this girl succeeded is tragic, of course. But to claim that bullying resulted in her suicide is beyond the pale.

Tough as it might sound, I'd like to know just where were the girl's parents? Suicide doesn't "just happen" with no warning. A child this age obviously had serious problems that may or may not have been diagnosed and treated. It is certainly easy to understand why a parent of the child would want to psychologically "shift blame" to the bullying mother. Whatever gets one through that kind of a horrid tragedy...but to take it to level of prosecution is crazy.

And if people truly wanted to put an end to most suicides, we would pass serious, strict gun control legislation, which could prohibit people suffering from mental illness to gain access to firearms.

That would also put a big dent in school shootings, too.

Subject: RE: BS: Indicted: Death By Internet
From: meself
Date: 18 May 08 - 12:53 AM

A curious choice of words: "who was TEASED over the Internet" (my capitals) ... I heard it put that way in radio news report; I thought maybe I had mis-heard ... I doubt that anyone is deliberately trying to play down the seriousness of the harrassment, but that's the effect of using the word 'teased' in this case ...

Subject: RE: BS: Indicted: Death By Internet
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 18 May 08 - 12:35 AM

Lawmakers vote to bar cyber harassment

Bill, a response to teenager's suicide, now goes to the governor

By Chris Blank
The Associated Press
updated 6:53 p.m. CT, Fri., May. 16, 2008

JEFFERSON CITY, Mo. - Responding to the suicide of a Missouri teenager who was teased over the Internet, state lawmakers Friday gave final approval to a bill making cyber harassment illegal.
The bill updates state laws against harassment to keep pace with technology by removing the requirement that the communication be written or over the telephone. Supporters say the bill will now cover harassment from computers, text messages and other electronic devices.
It was approved 106-23 in the House and 34-0 in the Senate and now goes to the governor.

Many of the bill's provisions came from a special gubernatorial task force that studied Internet harassment after the media last fall reported on the details of Megan Meier's suicide.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Indicted: Death By Internet
From: Amos
Date: 17 May 08 - 10:53 PM

No, it wasn't; it was a planned series of the kind of hate mail designed to crush a young girl's spirits.


A

Subject: RE: BS: Indicted: Death By Internet
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 17 May 08 - 10:49 PM

I think I just read the website that was at the front of Leenia's mind when she posted. She has a very good point.

Subject: RE: BS: Indicted: Death By Internet
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 17 May 08 - 10:29 PM

In my slightly foggy memory, Lori Drew enlisted several local teens into the program of pervasive deamaning harassment, bringing in an extra layer of evil. It was not just I love You I love you - You're dumped. I may be wrong.

Subject: RE: BS: Indicted: Death By Internet
From: Amos
Date: 17 May 08 - 10:18 PM

Lauren Weinstein opines:

"Many legal experts seem to be generally in agreement that the
anti-hacking law invoked in this case was never meant for this kind
of situation and is really pushing the prosecutorial discretion
envelope. Perhaps even worse, the conspiracy count attempts to
prosecute a claimed conspiracy to violate MySpace's Terms of Service
(TOS), and the creation of a phony "identity" on that site.

Wait a minute. Is simply violating the often insanely long and
complex TOS at a site now a criminal offense, especially as
relates to not telling the truth, all the truth, and nothing but the
truth when creating an online presence?

If you've never entered false information when signing up at a Web
site, please raise your hand ... Hmm, not a lot of hands raised out
there.

In this particular case, pretty much any young MySpace user could
apparently have rather easily gained access to the profile and
related information in question, but the authorities are attempting
to prosecute an act of "phony identity" because -- apparently --
they can't find any truly appropriate statute to apply in this
tragic harassment suicide case.

Already, I'm seeing news stories with headlines suggesting that
using false identities on the Web might get you arrested. Please
see my earlier postings for more discussion about why this is
potentially such a dangerous situation for law-abiding Web users
( http://lauren.vortex.com/archive/000385.html ).

."

Subject: RE: BS: Indicted: Death By Internet
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 16 May 08 - 10:29 AM

I live in Missouri, the state where the victim and her tormenters lived. As a result, I have seen more coverage than most people.

People will debate this case to the max, but I'm not interested in doing that. I'm interested in the raw power of the Internet which this case has demonstrated.

The victimzation itself is an obvious example of that power. But there's more. When the facts became known, Lori Drew and her husband had to sell their house and leave St Louis. They lost their daughter, who had to move in with a relative. People track the Drews through the Internet and publish their whereabouts. The last time I read, Lori Drew was being stopped and harangued wherever she went.

(I'm going to assume that the hostility has died down as life goes on.)

That is power, a kind of power we've never seen before.

Subject: RE: BS: Indicted: Death By Internet
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 16 May 08 - 03:32 AM

The biggest shock of this particular crime seems to me to be that the perpetrator was a mature woman and not a teenage boy driven by hormones and violent computer games, or a middle aged dirty old man. We still live in a society that has not quite come to grips with the fact that women can be just as, if not more, cruel and sadistic as men.

We keep hearing that most serial killers or rapists are male - but there is sex equality in all things these days. We just haven't quite got it into our heads and our children's heads that women are capable of terrible things too.

The precedent for this, I feel, is the 1960's cases of the Moors Murders. The general public could easily believe that Ian Brady was capable of murder but were aghast at the evidence that proved Myra Hindley was the one enticing these children in and watching, and I have no doubt, joining in the sadistic murders.

LTS

Subject: RE: BS: Indicted: Death By Internet
From: akenaton
Date: 16 May 08 - 02:41 AM

Ah well that's what happens when we stop being a discussion forum and become a social club for the over sixties.....

Subject: RE: BS: Indicted: Death By Internet
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 May 08 - 12:44 AM

That is smart of you, Maggie.

BDL...granted, however one would hope a 49 year old would have some semblance of good judgement/experience/etc. compared to a 16 year old.

Subject: RE: BS: Indicted: Death By Internet
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 15 May 08 - 11:54 PM

People can be horribly cruel, and when their acts can be demonstrated to have caused harm they should be held accountable.

Teens are not adults but that doesn't mean they are innocent small children either, and it doesn't mean that they can't calculate some incredibly unkind or downright criminal acts. I think many harbor the notion that they can get away with it because of their age--this dovetails with the feeling of immortality many teens also feel.

If they don't figure out that the world doesn't revolve around them, they are in for a lot of trouble, and perhaps harm or incarceration. Parents who coddle their children and tell them they're better than anyone else do them a drastic disservice. My two are mid and late teens right now, and as smart as they are, I still keep my fingers crossed and my eyes open regarding these most difficult of years. That is why the computer is in the living room and in full sight any time I walk through. If the screen is dropped when I come near, I ask that it be raised. So far (and I hope it will continue) it has always been harmless.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Indicted: Death By Internet
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 15 May 08 - 11:29 PM

Just to play devil's advocate here...

What if it had been a real MySpace page belonging to a real 16 year-old boy with a sadistic streak, who thought it would be cool to make some 13 year-old girl fall for him and then dump her? Would he be held liable? Is the fact that the woman pretended to be a teenage boy really of any consequence? What she did was wrong, but is it more wrong than if it had been done by a real 16 year-old boy?

As far as I know, pretending to be someone else on the Internet is not illegal unless one is doing so with the intention of performing an illegal act, and toying with the emotions of a vulnerable teenage girl may be cruel and morally reprehensible, but is it illegal?

Subject: RE: BS: Indicted: Death By Internet
From: Beer
Date: 15 May 08 - 10:18 PM

How strange we people are.
Beer (adrien)

Subject: RE: BS: Indicted: Death By Internet
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 May 08 - 10:15 PM

I read that today, to...what a horrible thing to do. Reminded me of the mother in TX who tried to or did kill a rival of her daughter-cheerleader? Weird and fucked up people, imo.

Subject: BS: Indicted: Death By Internet
From: Amos
Date: 15 May 08 - 10:12 PM

A most unusual case:

"LOS ANGELES (Reuters) - A 49-year-old Missouri woman accused of pretending to be a love-struck teenage boy on MySpace and driving a 13-year-old girl to suicide with cruel messages was indicted on Thursday on federal charges.

Prosecutors say Lori Drew and others created the fake MySpace persona of a 16-year-old boy to woo neighbor Megan Meier for several weeks, then abruptly ended the relationship and said the world would be better off without her.

Meier's 2006 suicide by hanging, just hours after she read those final messages, made worldwide headlines and prompted calls for social networking sites like MySpace to crack down on cyber-bullying.

"This adult woman allegedly used the Internet to target a young teenage girl, with horrendous ramifications," U.S. Attorney Thomas O'Brien said in announcing the indictment in Los Angeles, where MySpace is based."

This sounds like the stuff an 18th century murder ballad would be made of, dressed up in modern rags.

A