BS: The only truly conservative nominee?

Subject: RE: BS: The only truly conservative nominee?
From: CarolC
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 10:12 AM

Labels in politics do seem pretty arbitrary and counterproductive.

Subject: RE: BS: The only truly conservative nominee?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 09 Jul 08 - 01:55 AM

It's all marketing. Those two terms, "liberal" and "conservative", have simply become knee-jerk propaganda terms that people in politics and media in the USA are using to manipulate other people into supporting or opposing someone or something.

People are not expected to think when they hear those words, they are expected to react. The mere calling of someone a "liberal" or a "conservative" is done either to demonize them...or to promote them...depending on whom the rhetoric is aimed at.

This happens all the time on Mudcat...in both directions.

The real truth is that most people are liberal in some respects and conservative in others, so it's not very helpful to just label them as "liberal" or "conservative", because it reduces them to an unrealistic and inaccurate stereotype.

Subject: RE: BS: The only truly conservative nominee?
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 09:32 PM

Certainly a true conservative does not spend like a drunken sailor.
Does not make our economy depend on foreign oil princes.
Does not promote borrowing from China to buy from China.
Does not stick his nose in our bedroom
and does respect our legal system and Constitution.
Does not cut taxes while fighting an expensive war.

If you are calling yourself a conservative and NOT doing any of those things, you are lying to someone, maybe its yourself, but you are lying to someone.

Subject: RE: BS: The only truly conservative nominee?
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 08:22 PM

I think Kucinich is far more conservative in some respects than either GW Bush or McCain. Bush is one of the most radical politicians in this country, and McCain also, by virtue of hewing to most of Bush's policies.

Kucinich believes in protecting and upholding the US Constitution, and he is less in favor of "big government" than either Bush or McCain, as well.

Subject: RE: BS: The only truly conservative nominee?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 06:59 PM

Of course you're allowed an opinion; have two or three...they're small. And I'm allowed an opinion about your opinion ad infinitum

Who has asked that question, Hawk, about liberals? I haven't. I didn't even know it was part of the thread. However, as a mirror image to what I read here, my choice would have to be Dennis Kucinich.

Subject: RE: BS: The only truly conservative nominee?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 04:16 PM

How do people who aren't liberals know what a true liberal is, John? ;-)

Or are we only allowed to have opinions about people exactly like ourselves (assuming we could find such people anywhere)...?

I am totally disgusted with both the Democrats and the Republicans, and pretty much with ALL political parties, so this is not a partisan matter on my part, I assure you. This is an attempt to understand what different politicians stand for and to guess at what they might do if they were elected.

Like Carol, I would say that I am neither conservative nor liberal...but some of each, because there are some good ideas on both sides of that divide.

Subject: RE: BS: The only truly conservative nominee?
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 04:02 PM

I merely asked the question. However, I note that there is at least one self-described "conservative" in the thread who considers Barr to be the only truly conservative candidate in this race.

If the race was between Barr and McCain (with no other candidates), I would vote for Barr, precisely because of the ways in which he is more conservative than McCain (I am neither conservative nor liberal, or rather, I am some of both).

Subject: RE: BS: The only truly conservative nominee?
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 03:12 PM

Well I for one feel much better knowing that people who aren't Conservatives are so damned smart as to know what a true Conservative is. Bottom line is that "the true conservative is the person you'd most like to have run against Obama." Think of a Republican George McGovern, as it were.

Subject: RE: BS: The only truly conservative nominee?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 03:08 PM

nope- they just gave us a bigger circus, until November.

Subject: RE: BS: The only truly conservative nominee?
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 03:07 PM

They've been pretty skimpy with the bread lately. Does that mean we are less distracted?

Subject: RE: BS: The only truly conservative nominee?
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 02:58 PM

Yup. Bread and circuses. That's how they keep us distracted and complacent so we'll vote for things that are not in our best interests.

Subject: RE: BS: The only truly conservative nominee?
From: Lord Batman's Kitchener
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 02:52 PM

It's fun watching American politics, it reminds me of watching the clowns at the circus when I was a child. One custard pie after another and a prat fall or two, particularly though, the custard pies.

Subject: RE: BS: The only truly conservative nominee?
From: CarolC
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 01:45 PM

Smear tactics are always unnecessary and, in my opinion, counterproductive.

McCain's record during his time as a senator is all we need to look at to determine what sort of a president he would make.

Subject: RE: BS: The only truly conservative nominee?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 12:59 PM

I think the truth in the "wet start" and "swift boat" incidents is that 35 years ago, when they were both quite young, Kerry and McCain were involved in incidents where people died. Kerry and McCain did not die in the incidents, so detractors feel free to blame them. And, I suppose, it could be true that every person present at any incident, could have done a better job.

Although I was pleasant, I did not give adequately profuse thanks when the checker handed me my change at the supermarket. Therefore, I failed to prevent her from having a bad day, and therefore I am forever damned to hell and I am certainly not qualified to be President of the United States.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: The only truly conservative nominee?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 12:48 PM

Such accidents can easily happen on an aircraft carrier. As BB said, naval aviation is a hazardous business. The incident is no reflection one way or another on the character of John McCain.

(The four Japanese aircraft carriers lost at Midway essentially died due to exactly the sort of chain-reaction damage suffered on the Forrestal...only in that case it was American dive bombers that caused the initial damage with their bombs, damage which cause huge fires and explosions which quickly spread and overwhelmed the damage control crews on those ships.)

My problem with John McCain has nothing to do with his war record. I just don't like his general attitude toward America's foreign policy, that's all. He has faith in certain generalities of policy that I have no faith in, therefore I would not vote for him.

I don't like Obama's attitude toward America's foreign policy much either, but I find it somewhat preferable to McCain's. I am skeptical that Obama really intends to withdraw America's troops for Iraq. I doubt it. The people who favor a foreign policy I agree with strongly are Dennis Kucinich and Ron Paul.

As for Barr, I don't know enough about his positions on foreign policy yet to have much of an opinion about it.

Subject: RE: BS: The only truly conservative nominee?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 12:32 PM

The fact is that a naval aviator has about a 20% chance overall of being killed in PEACETIME during flight operations. A dangerous and thankless job.

More of the story:

The ship was preparing to launch a major strike and many fully fueled and armed aircraft were parked about the deck. At 10:52 AM a 5" ZUNI rocket accidentally fired from an F-4 Phantom parked on the starboard side of the ship and pointed inboard. The rocket impacted an armed A-4 Skyhawk (piloted by then-LCDR, now Senator, John McCain) parked on the port side.

The rocket's impact dislodged and ruptured the Skyhawk's 400-gallon external fuel tank and ignited the jet fuel which poured out. A 1000-pound bomb also fell to the deck, into the spreading pool of flaming jet fuel. Within 90 seconds the bomb "cooked off" and detonated. That explosion resulted in a chain reaction as the closely-packed aircraft were first engulfed in and then contributed to a massive fire with repeated high-order bomb detonations. The ship's "plat" cameras, mounted on the island and embedded in the deck itself, provided ample video coverage of the initial accident and the subsequent catastrophe.

The first responders were Repair Party 8, led by Chief Petty Officer Gerald Farrier, who can be seen in the plat tapes running toward McCain's Skyhawk immediately after the rocket strike. The fuel tank had already ruptured and burning fuel was spreading around the aircraft. Chief Farrier had, as his weapon against this blaze, a hand-held fire extinguisher. He had not yet reached the Skyhawk when the first detonation occurred . . . he simply disappeared in the blast. A number of air- and deck crew were trapped in the inferno; many died there, while others were able to escape to the deck-edge catwalks.

Outside the rapidly spreading fire, the flight deck crew immediately began an effort to contain the blaze. The on-deck firefighting crews rallied after the first explosion and attacked the fire, only to disappear in the second, and larger, round of explosions. The plat tapes show the decimated firefighters recruiting help from anyone in the vicinity, and these make-shift crews once again pressed into the growing inferno. The third round of detonations cleared the deck of men and fire-fighting gear, but within a minute more crewmen from the forward deck and below-deck areas had reconstituted fire-fighting teams and were working their way aft.

Over a dozen 1,000 and 500 pound bombs detonated within the first few minutes of the fire, punching holes through the 3" armor plating of the flight deck. Flaming fuel poured through those holes, into the working and berthing spaces on the O-3 level, then down into the aft hangar bay. Numerous smaller explosions occurred as lesser weapons, ranging from the Skyhawk's cannon ammunition to 5" rocket warheads, detonated.

Although it was 13 hours and more before the last fire was extinguished, FORRESTAL's crew did put it out ... but at the cost of 135 dead and hundreds more injured. FORRESTAL left Yankee Station under her own power, steaming to Subic Bay for temporary repairs before returning to Norfolk on 15 September 1967.




Yep, you can be sure that the True Believers here will consider it to be absolute proof that McCain should not be elected- after all, see how unluckey he was? (sarcasm)

Subject: RE: BS: The only truly conservative nominee?
From: Ebbie
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 10:02 AM

From the link:

"At 10:52 AM a 5" ZUNI rocket accidentally fired from an F-4 Phantom parked on the starboard side of the ship and pointed inboard. The rocket impacted an armed A-4 Skyhawk (piloted by then-LCDR, now Senator, John McCain) parked on the port side."

Am I missing something here? According to this account, McCain was a victim, not the initiator.

Subject: RE: BS: The only truly conservative nominee?
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 02:14 AM

I couldn't find anything but blogs and forums that mention a "wet start."

The official story does not blame McCain.

The story

I sincerely doubt that even an Admiral's son would get away with killing 135 men.

Subject: RE: BS: The only truly conservative nominee?
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 01:48 AM

If you have an official source confirming it, then thanks for sharing it Guest from Sanity. It does say something about the man's judgement. If it is just a rumor. Then its just a second hand smear.

Subject: RE: BS: The only truly conservative nominee?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 01:20 AM

To all concerned: If that looked like an attempt to smear McCain, Actually, that was not my motive, but you're right, it does. I personally don't like either front runner, nor have I really supported Barr, even though he strikes me as having the most integrity. Just not happy with anyone of them. As to the smear, if that offended anyone, for any reason, accept my apology.- GfS

Subject: RE: BS: The only truly conservative nominee?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 Jul 08 - 12:07 AM

You're right, Doug, Barr is the only true conservative in the race, and he is defending the Constitution.

That in itself will guarantee he won't get elected, in my opinion. It would threaten too many established interests. They all find the Constitution inconvenient. It gets in the way of their personal ambitions.

SINSULL, I do not see how McCain's "years spent in a POW camp being tortured, threatened with death, starved and abused" had anything to do with defending the US Constitution. I do see how they had something to do with John McCain defending the human spirit, embodied in himself, and enduring great hardship and suffering. That is something to be respected, but it has nothing to do with whether or not someone should be elected president.

Hundreds of thousands of German soldiers and airmen like Erich Hartmann (the greatest flying ace in history) had to endure similar treatment in Russian prison camps during and after WWII. Most of them did not survive their imprisonment. Most of them were worked to death, tortured to death, and murdered. Hartmann did survive, never yielded to attempts to break his spirit, and he was returned finally by the Russians to West Germany in the 50's and served honorably in the postwar German air force (Luftwaffe) which was part of Nato.

Was Hartman defending a constitution or a way of government during his imprisonment? Was he defending some political document? No. He was defending the human spirit, embodied in himself...and he endured the same kind of things that John McCain did. No one has suggested electing him to high office on the basis of what he suffered in Russian concentration camps...or let's be more specific: Russian death camps.

Subject: RE: BS: The only truly conservative nominee?
From: DougR
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 09:54 PM

Sorry, Joe. Senior moment. What I meant to say is, yep, Barr is the only true conservative in the race. I am a conservative but I will not vote for Barr. I will vote for McCain.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: The only truly conservative nominee?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 08:40 PM

Well, it sure looks to me like "wet start" is the moral equivalent of "swift boat" - using 35-yr-old information in a desperate attempt to smear a presidential candidate.
I think both the "wet start" and "swift boat" campaigns are despicable.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: The only truly conservative nominee?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 07:01 PM

He also killed 23 fellow crew members when he 'wet started' his jet on a carrier, that cause the jet behind him to drop its bomb...and it was buried, because his dad was the Admiral ...oh shhh, that's one one the points that he can be blackmailed for....

Subject: RE: BS: The only truly conservative nominee?
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 04:23 PM

He didn't go to Vietnam to become a POW. He went to Vietnam to drop bombs on people. But regardless of what his reason was for going there, since 2001, he has been doing his best to undermine the US Constitution.

Subject: RE: BS: The only truly conservative nominee?
From: SINSULL
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 04:14 PM

"At least Barr believes in upholding the Constitution."

Yes those years spent in a POW camp being tortured, threatened with death, starved and abused had nothing to do with defending the constitution.

Subject: RE: BS: The only truly conservative nominee?
From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 03:18 PM

I hope Barr runs with Ventura...What a statement that would be!!

Subject: RE: BS: The only truly conservative nominee?
From: GUEST,Jack the Sailor
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 02:32 PM

John McCain was a maverick. Now he is a half hearted Bush Republican. I appreciate your optimism Joe. But because McCain seems firmly behind the worst of Bush's policies, i certainly do not share it. I am not a "True Believer" Of anything. I am just looking at the man's record and his recent platform.

Subject: Gotta quit smokin' that stuff . . . .
From: Peace
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 01:10 PM

I'm gonna message Doug and let him know some scoundrel is using his handle on Mudcat.

Subject: RE: BS: The only truly conservative nominee?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 01:06 PM

You're absolutely right, Doug. I can't disagree with that at all.
What did you say?
-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: The only truly conservative nominee?
From: DougR
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 12:10 PM

Yep.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: The only truly conservative nominee?
From: CarolC
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 12:09 PM

Personally, I prefer Barr's brand of "conservatism" over McCain's brand of whatever he is. At least Barr believes in upholding the Constitution.

Subject: RE: BS: The only truly conservative nominee?
From: Joe Offer
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 12:06 PM

I have to say I liked this from the Washington Post:

Conservative activists are preparing to do battle with allies of Sen. John McCain in advance of September's Republican National Convention, hoping to prevent his views on global warming, immigration, stem cell research and campaign finance from becoming enshrined in the party's official declaration of principles.

That's further evidence to me that McCain is a reasonable, decent man - not a party ideologue. This may be frightening to True Believers on both the right and the left, but to me it's a sign of hope. Maybe we're moving away from the Age of Ideology.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: BS: The only truly conservative nominee?
From: PoppaGator
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 10:50 AM

Well, Bush isn't a "true conservative" either.

Subject: RE: BS: The only truly conservative nominee?
From: kendall
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 08:59 AM

If McCain is such a maverick, why has he voted with Bush 95 out of 100 times?

Subject: RE: BS: The only truly conservative nominee?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Jul 08 - 01:54 AM

Ah hah! Very interesting. Yes, that guy Barr seems to be a real conservative, unlike Bush, Cheney, and their underlings in the Republican Party. (and unlike McCain as well)

Subject: BS: The only truly conservative nominee?
From: CarolC
Date: 06 Jul 08 - 09:46 PM

Is Bob Barr the only nominee for president who could truly be called "conservative"?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TbHtWQ-Hj04