BS: Assisted Suicide

Subject: RE: BS: Assisted Suicide
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 05:24 PM

Thank you, Dear Lizzie, for your understanding and sympathy, and a big hug right back to you my dear. I am indeed fortunate to have found happiness again.

Thank you too, Donuel, for your kind words.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Assisted Suicide
From: GUEST,The Villan
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 03:40 PM

Dave
You are correct. At that time my mother was past being able to make that decision.

However, earlier, she was unhappy and wished that her life was ended.

Anyway my mother passed away in 2009 which was a blessing.

Subject: RE: BS: Assisted Suicide
From: Lizzie Cornish 1
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 01:57 PM

"Those who assist are killers, simple as that."

What a load of absolute bogwash.   




Dear Michael,

I'm so sorry that you and Valerie were not allowed to be together in those final hours. The law is deeply wrong about this situation. She looked so very pretty on your wedding day, and to read of your 50 years of happiness was a real joy. How lovely for her to have all those beautiful memories in her heart and mind, right to the very end.

It sounds as if you've since found happiness again, and I'm really pleased for you. I think, in a way, it takes even more courage to walk away, as you had to, than to stay, but no person should ever be forced to make such a choice in the first place..

Sending you much love and a big hug.
Lizzie ((x))

Subject: RE: BS: Assisted Suicide
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 01:41 PM

The Villan said, in part:

She is almost blind, cannot walk and has no idea where she is. She is 93 and very frail and all alone. Her self dignity has gone and relies totally on nuring staff to look after her requirements. Her quality of life is zilch. When we visit her it is so sad as she howls and cries and it is so upsetting.

How I wished Assisted Suicide was allowed in this country (UK).

I think it's useful to distinguish the language used here. The Villan speaks in his last paragraph of "assisted suicide". Yet his previous paragraph indicates (to me, at least) that his mother is beyond making a valid (and perhaps ANY) choice in the matter of setting her time of death.

If I understand his mother's described condition correctly, I think what The Villan needs for his mother is euthanasia ("good death"), which implies that someone else makes the choice that the patient is unable to comprehend and decide, or perhaps is physically unable to carry out.

The rest of this post doesn't specifically apply to The Villan's problem, but rather to distinguishing the two concepts:

The two concepts carry markedly different ethical burdens. Provided the patient makes the choice in an informed manner on his/her own, I regard assisted suicide as a meritorious act.

Euthanasia, on the other hand, is a whole other ethical can of worms, potentially ranging from another meritorious, merciful act to what may be murder, governed by a host of factors.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Assisted Suicide
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 01:19 PM

Micheal after reading several accounts of your compassionate support and the perverse twists and turns that the law put you and Valerie through, I realize that your experience will continue to pioneer changes in the law and hearts of allintelligent loving people for many years to come.

Subject: RE: BS: Assisted Suicide
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 01:16 PM

"No one has the right to play God."

That's not the issue....everyone has their own notion of whether "God" is involved.... it is whether to play 'friend' if requested by a sane person. Sadly, most laws are based on supposed 'moral' notions by those who assume 'God' is involved.

Subject: RE: BS: Assisted Suicide
From: Donuel
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 01:02 PM

Affording assisted living or nursing homes is a problem of immense proportions, as is knowing when to let go by any means necessary.

Buying an insurance policy for elderly care is expensive. The cheapest is about $400 a month for a married couple.

I have heard that $25,000 a month is demanded by some nursing homes.
The terms they demand are wicked. Some want a quarter million on deposit at all times.
Beware of the extended care seminars put on by "pressionals who will become a middle man money siphon for any policy sales.
......

Many boomers have no policy or plan for the end. Maybe they will have grand suicide blowout parties. Maybe mountain snow party all nighters will be a painless sleepy way to go.
I believe there are doctors who will prescribe medications in amounts that will do the job.

In the meantime, quality of life is the best measure for the pleasure that life can bring.

Helping the elderly can go far beyond meals on wheels. Many elderly need a free volunteer geek squad to hep with their computers. Some need home cooked meals or domestic help for only a short span which can be shared by a small group of neighbors.

Compassion joy and empathy is needed everywhere at every turn and every age.

Subject: RE: BS: Assisted Suicide
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 05:48 AM

As many of you know, I have direct experience in this particular. Anyone who doesn't know about my first wife's death, my part in it, and my attitude to it, can read all about it by googling 'Grosvenor Myer suicide'.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: Assisted Suicide
From: GUEST,Patsy
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 05:31 AM

The trouble is it could be abused by some, it is hard to know the circumstances with all families. Some are very loving families that can't bear to see loved ones in such pain and distress but there could be some who could twist it to their advantage. Thank goodness not many.

I don't think that I could do it, but then again I haven't been in a position yet where my closest family is suffering.

Subject: RE: BS: Assisted Suicide
From: Richie Black (misused acct, bad email)
Date: 30 Sep 10 - 04:58 AM

Everyone, I suppose, has the right to take their own life. NO ONE has the right to take the life of another, most especially someone without comprehension or defences. Such an act should NEVER be pardoned. Those who assist are killers, simple as that.

Two previous attempts to legalize assisted suicide have been rejected by the UK Parliament. In the meantime the Director of Public Prosecution has clarified the criteria under which an individual will be prosecuted for assisting in another person's suicide.

No one has the right to play God.

Subject: RE: BS: Assisted Suicide
From: gnu
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 12:51 PM

Try again.

Subject: RE: BS: Assisted Suicide
From: gnu
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 12:50 PM

How terrible that this had to happen.

Ahhhh... the link maker will not work. I had better post this before the cat scratches.....

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/capress/081212/national/crime_assisted_suicide

Subject: RE: BS: Assisted Suicide
From: Ebbie
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 12:47 PM

That's why there are safeguards. In Oregon, a team of doctors signs off on it.

Subject: RE: BS: Assisted Suicide
From: Rasener
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 11:43 AM

Thats always a risk.

Subject: RE: BS: Assisted Suicide
From: goatfell
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 08:43 AM

but then you'll get people that will abuse it (neo nazis maybe?)

Subject: RE: BS: Assisted Suicide
From: Rasener
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 05:21 AM

Many thanks for the nice thoughts as well. Much appreciated.

Subject: RE: BS: Assisted Suicide
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 04:40 AM

Dear Villan,

Good thoughts and blessings to you and your Mum, from

Erica and Bryn.

My beloved and I have an undiscussed understanding. She has had arthritic pain for as long as I have known her ; and, like anyone else, some days are better than others.

We are agreed that if the other is in unbearable pain, or has no quality of life, the other will not impede what the sufferer wishes to do.

I cried my guts out when we had our old pussy cat put to sleep because she was suffering. You (not you personally, the "book review" 'you' !) wouldn't do to a dog what we are forced to let our loved ones go through.

Subject: RE: BS: Assisted Suicide
From: Rasener
Date: 12 Dec 08 - 04:31 AM

Very interesting so far.

Subject: RE: BS: Assisted Suicide
From: katlaughing
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 11:21 PM

Ebbie, that's what my dad said when my mom's favourite brother killed himself from too many years of shrapnel pain near his heart and alcoholism. My dad was not religious, but he was spiritual and he just said he could understand Uncle Howard not wanting to live another in such pain and it was his right to check out.

Villan, I hope you can find some kind of peace in all of this. I used to work as an aide, years and years ago, in a nursing home where people were left to die of neglect, disease, etc. It was not easy to see and I remember we girls sitting around on our breaks talking about how we wanted it to be if we ever were in that situation; a quick, painless, easy way out of the suffering.

Subject: RE: BS: Assisted Suicide
From: Joe_F
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 09:52 PM

Well, Kevorkian did get sent to prison, but his was an extreme case; he publicized his activities & was a frank provocation. Even so, it took a long time for the enemy to wangle a conviction.

People are bound to have mixed feelings about assisted suicide, and because of religious agitation it is a party question, so the present situation is that it is hard to make it legal, but also hard to punish anyone for it. The result is that with luck you may well end up with a circumspect doctor who can do what you want, but there is also a considerable risk of ending your life horribly imprisoned.

Here is how it worked out in England in 1936, when the poet A. E. Housman was on his deathbed. His doctor recalled:

You know how silent and reserved he always was; but this time he talked quite a lot and very affectionately. He held my hand for nearly half an hour. "You have been a good friend to me," he said; "I know you have brought me here so that I may not commit suicide, and I know that you may not help me to it more than the law allows. But I do ask you not to let me have any more unnecessary suffering than you can help." I told him that he should not suffer any more; and from that time on he did not. Then, to cheer him up just before I left, I told him a thoroughly naughty story. He was very weak, but he threw his head back on the pillow laughing heartily. "Yes, that's a good one," he said, "and to-morrow I shall be telling it again on the Golden Floor."

-- Bless that doctor! We are not even told his name.

Subject: RE: BS: Assisted Suicide
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 08:25 PM

I'm with Eb on this one 100% and would be perfectly willin' to assist, if I had the means, anyone who conscoiusly knows that they are in an end-to-life situation and feels no compulsion to string it out...

Where exactly is the humanity in seein' folks suffer needlessly???

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Assisted Suicide
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 07:14 PM

My extremely devout mother's quiet comment, upon hearing of her son in law's self-inflicted death after a sleepless night of walking the floor with pain from cancer, was: It is not for us to judge. Everyone has their limits.

Subject: RE: BS: Assisted Suicide
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 06:46 PM

If you want to check out you should be allowed to do so, to do so in as kind and gentle manner as possible. This is your decision, the last one you'll make. The family will grieve but eventually time will heal that, and perhaps they will eventually see why you decided as you did.

If your religious or personal beliefs forbid it then that too is your decision.

Subject: RE: BS: Assisted Suicide
From: Ebbie
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 06:14 PM

With today's medical technology it is possible - and probable - to live way beyond what used to be possible. Knowing that, I feel no compulsion to take advantage of today's capability just to keep my blood circulating or my lungs to keep inflating.

I don't see it as shortening one's life, but shortening the death process.

And yes, I'm originally from Oregon, where they've had legalized assisted suicide for the last decade. Subject to stringent conditions, of course.

Here is what it says:

"On October 27, 1997 Oregon enacted the Death with Dignity Act (the Act) which allows terminally-ill Oregonians to end their lives through the voluntary self-administration of lethal medications, expressly prescribed by a physician for that purpose. The Act requires the Oregon Department of Human Services to collect information about the patients and physicians who participate in the Act, and publish an annual statistical report. These data are important to parties on both sides of the issue."

A few years ago the act was challenged on the federal level but persevered.

Subject: RE: BS: Assisted Suicide
From: jacqui.c
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 05:54 PM

Les - I am so sorry.

My mother took eleven months to die in a nursing home following a major stroke. I think she only went then because I had requested palliative care only so when she had the final Infection she wasn't given antibiotics. Her pension was still being paid and, from a mercenary point of view, we would have been better off if she had lived longer but, even though she and I had been estranged for close on to twenty years I could not stand the idea of her continuing as basically a shell with little comprehension of what was going on.

I have a DNR in my medical records and so does Kendall. Whether or not the law is changed I would not now allow anyone close to me to go through that sort of dilemma.I hope that those I love would do the same for me.

Subject: RE: BS: Assisted Suicide
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 05:23 PM

IMHO Religion should not enter into it.

Another good reason to ensure that a system is in place to get the job done right.

People have lots of different beliefs. It would NOT be compulsory and if a system is in place that means it is done correctly then everybody would be catered for whatever their beliefs.

Subject: RE: BS: Assisted Suicide
From: Rasener
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 04:49 PM

IMHO Religion should not enter into it.

If the person who is suffering wants to get it over, why not.

I wonder how many religious people have had their pet put to sleep?

Do you know what. I was amazed when soembody texted sky news to say that it was very selfish for somebody to want to end their life, in such circumstances and felt that the person was being selfish to the rest of the family. Unbeleivable.

If you are not selfish, you would not want to let somebody suffer just becuase you couldn't live without them.

Subject: RE: BS: Assisted Suicide
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 03:57 PM

Razors pain you;
Rivers are damp;
Acids stain you;
And drugs cause cramp.
Guns aren't lawful;
Nooses give;
Gas smells awful;
You might as well live.
          --Dorothy Parker

Subject: RE: BS: Assisted Suicide
From: Sorcha
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 03:53 PM

No arguments from me here either.

Subject: RE: BS: Assisted Suicide
From: gnu
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 03:45 PM

arran... "But then there are 'people' that can abuse it, so be carful"

Certainly. Another good reason to ensure that a system is in place to get the job done right.

Subject: RE: BS: Assisted Suicide
From: gnu
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 03:39 PM

Well... you actually do have choices like DNR, but, I would like to see it go far beyond that. I recently lost my brother and I talked to him about it. He wanted the option and it should have been available to him. The last month was beyond description... for EVERYONE. He should have been allowed to make that decision with his family.

BTW, if anyone wants any info on DNR and other end of life issues under mental or physical incompetence (Canada or even other British Law countries) as it relates to Power of Attorney, PM me.

Subject: RE: BS: Assisted Suicide
From: GUEST,arran
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 03:33 PM

But then there are 'people' that can abuse it, so be carful

Subject: RE: BS: Assisted Suicide
From: Rapparee
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 03:28 PM

Doctors used to do it on their own when they knew that the patient wouldn't recover.

Triage (and triage WOULD happen in a great disaster or pandemic) sets those who have only a tiny chance of getting better aside to die so that medicine and health care can be focused on those with a better chance of living. Harsh, but at times necessary.

My wife and I have "DNR" on our Medical Directives; I hope that I never have to make the decision to "pull the plug" though.

Subject: RE: BS: Assisted Suicide
From: Will Fly
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 03:27 PM

My mother (85) has been in a home for over 7 years - can't speak, can't move. Whenever I visit her, I never know whether she knows me or not.

I can't speak for her but, if ever I get like that, it would be nice to know that, with due provisions, my son would be able to allow me to go without any difficulty. Quietly, simply, quickly, legally.

My dream, of course, is to go out like a light, on stage, smoking a Havana cigar, drinking a large Hennessey VSOP, playing my best guitar, with a chickadee on my knee, to the rapturous applause of an appreciative audience - and have the whole thing filmed and put on YouTube.

I've tried, Lord knows I've tried...

Subject: RE: BS: Assisted Suicide
From: Jean(eanjay)
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 03:22 PM

I didn't watch the programme because it would have upset me too much.

I know that I wouldn't cope if I was in the situation of the person in the film and that would be intolerable for me. Knowing that assisted suicide was legal would give me peace of mind now.

Subject: RE: BS: Assisted Suicide
From: gnu
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 03:19 PM

We had one case about 6 years ago here in Atlantic Canada. A young female doc and a 42 year old male throat cancer patient. She was suspended from practicing medicine for life and demoted to working in the lab. It was the patient's family that went after her. I can only assume it was for money.

In the "decision", the "head medical guy" said, in his report and on TV, that "she chose the wrong drug." Essentially, reading between VERY fine lines, he said what we all were thinking and hoping. That being, that such relief can be had, but it has to be "properly done". Now, that is little solace for those facing such extreme circumstances, but still, a glimmer of hope.

(In case you are wondering... she killed him with a drug that "kills", rather than killing him with an overdose of a similar drug that would be used during a regular medical procedure. So, she made a serious error in judgement when she allowed a paper trail that could prove that she did what he begged her to do. After all, it IS illegal to treat humans better than pets. So sad.)

Subject: RE: BS: Assisted Suicide
From: bobad
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 03:16 PM

"Why oh why do we allow our loved ones to be treated worse than our pets."

Do you think religion might have something to do with that?

Subject: RE: BS: Assisted Suicide
From: Wesley S
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 03:03 PM

"Nobody has been sent to prison "

I can understand it. What jury would send someone to prison for an act like that? I know I never could.

Subject: RE: BS: Assisted Suicide
From: Rasener
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 02:58 PM

What is weird in the UK

Nobody has been sent to prison for assisting somoene who is so ill, but the law does not allow it.

Work that one out.

Subject: RE: BS: Assisted Suicide
From: gnu
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 02:49 PM

My sincerest and deeply felt thoughts and prayers. Bless you and your mum... and everyone else in this troubling situation.

Subject: RE: BS: Assisted Suicide
From: artbrooks
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 02:48 PM

Barry, it has been legal in Oregon for years, and Washington voters just approved it there.

Subject: RE: BS: Assisted Suicide
From: Scooby Doo
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 02:40 PM

When i am ready and have the money i will be off to Zurich to end my final days.
I do not want to be looked after.

Scooby Doo

Subject: RE: BS: Assisted Suicide
From: Barry Finn
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 02:31 PM

I'm sorry for you & your mother Villan.
It's not really legal here either (US) that I know of.
My Mother is a very healthy & active 80+ but she is adament about never being put somewhere "out to pature". She doesn't want to become a burden on her children if it ever came to that, though she be welcomed. She has made it known that her house goes to her children & not to used to keep her alive till she's broke. She has said let nature takes it's course & has a DNR (do not recesatate) if anything should happen to her. When someone's lived that long they should have the right to go out as they chose & with the dignity they've grown accustom to.

Barry

Subject: BS: Assisted Suicide
From: Rasener
Date: 11 Dec 08 - 01:26 PM

I don't know if anybody watched that programme, and I am not posting here to create big arguments. However when it comes down to it, people treat their pets more humanly than we do our own loved and cherished family.

My mother is a nursing home. She is almost blind, cannot walk and has no idea where she is. She is 93 and very frail and all alone. Her self dignity has gone and relies totally on nuring staff to look after her requirements. Her quality of life is zilch. When we visit her it is so sad as she howls and cries and it is so upsetting.

How I wished Assisted Suicide was allowed in this country (UK). I would never allow my mother to be forced along that route, but if she wanted it, I would be the first one to endorse her decision.

Why oh why do we allow our loved ones to be treated worse than our pets.

I have to say, that if I was in that position, I would like to take that route and not have all these goody goody people saying that it is wrong.