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BS: Frightening News For The US Military
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Subject: RE: BS: Frightening News For The US Military From: Dead Horse Date: 22 Sep 09 - 06:09 PM "The most dangerous man in the Army is a 2d Lieutenant with a map and a compass." Not so. The most dangerous man in the army is a 2nd Lieutenant with a pen. He will sign anything - if the sergeant dont catch him first!!! As for the non-commisioned ranks, they spend time as a private before gaining rank, so a lance corporal HAS gained experience of the real world. Not so with a fresh from college "butterbar". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Frightening News For The US Military From: Bill D Date: 21 Sep 09 - 10:43 PM "Waist Deep in the Big |
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Subject: RE: BS: Frightening News For The US Military From: number 6 Date: 21 Sep 09 - 09:40 PM I think your someone who has a memory .... too bad the ones down in washington don't ..... I find it odd that the confusing medicare issue draws more people out to protest than this expensive war does ... and I should add expensive in the way of $eonomics$ and expensive on the loss of life. Oh well. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Frightening News For The US Military From: SINSULL Date: 21 Sep 09 - 09:32 PM yup Like Viet Nam there is no way out without betraying our allies and turning tail and running. Am I psychic or just smart? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Frightening News For The US Military From: number 6 Date: 21 Sep 09 - 09:28 PM Well .... Bush is now gone and it ain't over yet ... 3000 little 2nd looies all in a row. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Frightening News For The US Military From: SINSULL Date: 21 Sep 09 - 09:20 PM FUCK! FUCK! FUCK! Years ago, when this fiasco started, I remember bushites ridiculing me. "It will be over by Christmas!" When I asked which Christmas, I was sneered at and called unpatriotic. I cried that day. Fucking idiots. How many are dead? How many will die? How many generations of terrorists have we created? SIGH |
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Subject: RE: BS: Frightening News For The US Military From: Peace Date: 21 Sep 09 - 09:10 PM Thanks, Art. I KNEW there was a good reason. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Frightening News For The US Military From: artbrooks Date: 21 Sep 09 - 08:33 PM The overall size of the active duty force has increased over the past several years, primarily to reduce the number and length of times the reserves (including the Guard) are called up. The Army's force structure has changed, increasing the number of small combat units (platoons/companies/battalions), at the expense of large headquarters-type units. Junior officers are at a premium because of these two things. Besides, somebody has to inventory the booze in the Officers Club! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Frightening News For The US Military From: Peace Date: 21 Sep 09 - 08:03 PM So, uh, what is the military going to do with all these new officers? Read somewhere they are about 3000 short of the number they want. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Frightening News For The US Military From: Rapparee Date: 21 Sep 09 - 03:16 PM Yeah, mg. Mine too. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Frightening News For The US Military From: GUEST,mg Date: 21 Sep 09 - 03:04 PM THank heavens it was a non-war. I will pass that on to my friends. Oops, they are dead. mg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Frightening News For The US Military From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 21 Sep 09 - 02:55 PM I'd sort of assumed that "Second Lieutenants" were a sort of higher grade of Lieutenant. I see from here it's the other way round, rather the same way that Corporals are a step up from Lance Corporals back here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Frightening News For The US Military From: number 6 Date: 21 Sep 09 - 02:48 PM "Then again, a good, freshly minted officer actually LISTENS to his or hers sergeants and other experienced troops." Good point ..... in this day and age you think that would be part of an officer's training .... also the understanding that the expected duty of sergeant is to mentor the fresh 2nd LT. I recall reading somewhere that the current conflict in Iraq is a sergeant's war ... meaning more control had been given to the noncoms at the platoon level. But it appears then that many of the sergeants themselves are young and experienced. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Frightening News For The US Military From: Rapparee Date: 21 Sep 09 - 02:39 PM You can't gain experience in anything without doing it. Perhaps pairing a rookie and an experienced, up-from-the-ranks officer. Then again, a good, freshly minted officer actually LISTENS to his or hers sergeants and other experienced troops. The decision is always his or hers, and sometimes there won't be time for a conference -- but simply paying attention to those who've been there and when possible taking their advice would be a good start. After all, the platoon sergeant steps up when the platoon leader is out of action -- just as my #2 steps up when I'm unavailable. I trust her to make good decisions based upon her 33 years of experience and good sense. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Frightening News For The US Military From: meself Date: 21 Sep 09 - 02:24 PM According to the author, the protagonist of this non-fiction book is a direct descendant of the Crow scout whose last recorded words to Custer were - "I wouldn't go over that hill if I were you, Captain" .... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Frightening News For The US Military From: number 6 Date: 21 Sep 09 - 02:18 PM What would you consider a good solution Rapaire .... more promotions to commissioned officers from the seasoned rank and file? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Frightening News For The US Military From: Rapparee Date: 21 Sep 09 - 01:52 PM Look, George. I'll just stay here on this bluff and hold the horses for Reno and Benteen, okay? You don't need me over there with you and someone has to keep these horses from running away, right? Ineptitude isn't limited to the lower ranks of the officer corps, but their lack of experience is more likely to get people killed. Of course, there's also a long, long list going all the way back to Ancient Greece and, I'm certain, before.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Frightening News For The US Military From: number 6 Date: 21 Sep 09 - 01:37 PM Hey .... I think my horse threw a shoe .... I'll catch up with you guys later. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Frightening News For The US Military From: SINSULL Date: 21 Sep 09 - 01:33 PM Hey, Mister Custer! Please don't make me go. Forward HOOOOOO |
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Subject: RE: BS: Frightening News For The US Military From: Jeri Date: 21 Sep 09 - 11:03 AM I could be the most experienced, wise enlisted person in the world and a 2nd louie would outrank me and be able to give me orders. If he wasn't a complete prick, he/she would listen when I said "If you do that, we'll all die." If he/she was a complete prick, he/she would say, "I gave you an order. Make it so." Here's the hard part: if he/she were only a partial prick, you might end up with, "Well gosh, I don't know... What do you think I should do, sergeant?" And everybody would get killed waiting for the incomplete prick to make a decision. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Frightening News For The US Military From: number 6 Date: 21 Sep 09 - 10:40 AM "posonous snakes" !!! Jeeeezuz H. biLL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Frightening News For The US Military From: Rapparee Date: 21 Sep 09 - 10:37 AM Also the placement of anti-personnel mines, poisonous snakes, and other nasty things in someone's bed. I know personally of one "warning frag" that happened during a National Guard summer training exercise. The target (guess what rank he held) had a quarter pound block of TNT somehow detonate in his tent. (NO! I was NOT involved.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Frightening News For The US Military From: number 6 Date: 21 Sep 09 - 10:34 AM well .... that's the way it is kids. you'll be better off joining a travelling carnival these days. biLL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Frightening News For The US Military From: SINSULL Date: 21 Sep 09 - 10:31 AM Actually as far back as the 1700s when a commanding officer was shot by his own men AFTER the battle. The term fragging was invented in the Viet Nam non-war. It referred to the use of fragmentation grenades thrown into the offending officer's tent. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Frightening News For The US Military From: Rapparee Date: 21 Sep 09 - 10:21 AM "The most dangerous man in the Army is a 2d Lieutenant with a map and a compass." --Col. William L. Lyons, deceased. Art is right; he was one. Example: a training patrol lead by to 2d Lts. on a clear, wonderful, night with a beautiful full moon. We followed the same route we'd taken for the last four nights: up a hill, walk along the ridge for perhaps a mile, turn left, go down the hill, and wait for pickup in the assembly area (we were acting as Aggressor Forces). So: up the hill to the PATH we'd made on the top of the ridge, turn left, walk a bit, and the two LTs called a halt. Seems like they were lost...the radioed another patrol and asked them to "fire a shot to orient themselves". Way, way, WAY off in the distance a tiny shot was heard and the muzzle blast seen -- it must have been two or three miles away. "I think that to the left of the moon," said one to the other. At this point, the sergeant slammed his steel helmet to the ground in disgust and was told "If you can do better, you go and do it, but it's on YOUR head, sergeant." So we walked another half mile or so, turned left down the well-known path (note that no one else in the patrol was lost, only the officers) and arrived to rest in the assembly area. Nothing more was said in the hearing of the "other ranks" but I do know the battalion commander monitored the radio net.... Unless you're a direct political appointee, going through the perils of Second Lieutenanthood is a necessary part of becoming a military leaders, just as being in "other ranks" is necessary to being a successful NCO. Still...I believe, from my own experience and that of many others, what Col. Lyons said. (Fragging or its equivalent can be documented back at least as far as the American Civil War. It was usually done as a last resort to remove a dangerous and incompetent leader.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Frightening News For The US Military From: number 6 Date: 21 Sep 09 - 08:57 AM I can't see how fragging can be blamed on 2nd LT's .... fragging in the vietnamn conflict was a result of a very demoralized army involved in a very unpopular war. Fragging was not only targeted to 2nd LT's but also sargeants, 1 LT's. Basically any combat commissioned/non commissioned officer deemed incompetent or bullying were the targets. Regardless, only Rapaire can provide some light to what is meant by this thread. biLL |
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Subject: RE: BS: Frightening News For The US Military From: MarkS Date: 21 Sep 09 - 08:56 AM It's Darwinian. If a 2LT can survive long enough to become a 1LT, then there is hope for him, or her, and the service. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Frightening News For The US Military From: CarolC Date: 21 Sep 09 - 08:32 AM I see. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Frightening News For The US Military From: SINSULL Date: 21 Sep 09 - 08:17 AM Remember "Fragging", Carol? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Frightening News For The US Military From: artbrooks Date: 21 Sep 09 - 07:19 AM Second lieutenants are officers just out of training and are notorious for having a lot of knowledge (of how to "do it by the book") but no common sense. Rapaire was some species of sergeant in the (US) Army, and the thought of more butter bars (their rank insignia is a single gold bar) must be scary for him. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Frightening News For The US Military From: bubblyrat Date: 21 Sep 09 - 04:47 AM I don't know ! But in Britain we only have 2nd Lieutenants and Lieutenants in the Army ,but no "First Lieutenants" as such.That is an administrative position,rather than a rank,in the Navy,where,on a very small vessel,it could conceivably be a Sub-Lieutenant,or indeed,on an aircraft carrier,a Lieutenant-Commander,as it was on /in the carrier I served aboard for three years,along with at least one other " 'Catter" that I know of ! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Frightening News For The US Military From: CarolC Date: 20 Sep 09 - 11:27 PM What's so frightening about 2nd lieutenants? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Frightening News For The US Military From: number 6 Date: 20 Sep 09 - 11:13 PM "If I became a first lieutenant Would you put my photo on your piano? To Maryjane- Best wishes, Martin." excerpt from Punky's Dilemma by Paul Simon biLL |
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Subject: BS: Frightening News For The US Military From: Rapparee Date: 20 Sep 09 - 09:13 PM From the Associate Press: "Army ROTC ranks grow, promise more 2nd lieutenants" |
