BS: Underground History of Amer. Education

Subject: RE: BS: Underground History of Amer. Education
From: mandotim
Date: 25 Mar 10 - 03:04 AM

You're missing the point; Gatto has 'identified the problem' using research processes that are academically unacceptable, and most of his data is either skewed by his methods, taken out of context or obtained from sources with a vested interest. There are no controls in his work; in other words, you shouldn't really believe a word he says.

Subject: RE: BS: Underground History of Amer. Education
From: ichMael
Date: 24 Mar 10 - 10:56 PM

Mandotim -- Gatto has pointed out the problem. Our education system produces dependants and providers. That is its primary role now. We all have "solutions," and I doubt that Gatto's are right, but he's ID'd the problem and that's a fine bit of work.

As far as Iserbyt, she RESIGNED from the Reagan cabinet and went public with internal documents. She EXPOSED the program to "deliberately dumb down" America's school kids. A hero.

Subject: RE: BS: Underground History of Amer. Education
From: mandotim
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 03:50 PM

ichMael; I'll say it again; Gatto is not credible by any acceptable academic standard, his 'research' sucks. On almost everything he is just plain wrong, according to reliable evidence. I guess you know a messiah when you see one eh? Followed a few?
As to people who worked in the Reagan administration, can I recomment Jim Wallis's excellent book 'Rediscovering Values'? This points out quite succinctly where the roots of the decline in the values and international reputation of the USA lie. Neither Bush nor Shrub, but good ol' Ronnie all the way. Don't get me wrong, I'm not an 'America basher' like some on this side of the pond; I see (and have always seen) the USA as potentially the greatest force for good the world has ever seen; it's just that your country (and mine to some extent) has fallen into the hands of powerful and amoral people, who run the place merely as a vehicle for their own enrichment on the backs of others, and this was Reagan's doing. Less regulation is one of their tools; without regulation there are no checks on those with enough money to buy influence. Gatto's ideas play into this trap, and if carried to their logical conclusion would lead to an enormous underclass of allegedly home educated children who in fact receive no education at all, with no means left to change this. As I posted before, I've read Gatto, and run down his sources. You might want to check out some of the organisations who fund his shoddy attempts at research as well.

Subject: RE: BS: Underground History of Amer. Education
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 03:46 PM

I agree completely with ichMael in that our current system does severly limit kids... The teacher is always have to bfring up the rear and in doing so boring the crap outta everyone else...

Actually, we are not all that far from complete "indpendent study" for core curriculum courses where kids learn at their own speed on a computer with the teacher being more a tutor/facilitator... Yeah, I know that lots of folks will howl, "But, Bobert, kids won't learn social skills if they are learning from computers..."... Well, yeah, that does need to be addressed and I think a system that leaves the core subjects to the computer and social subjects and discussions to groups...

True story: My son Will-to-me-Ben-to-everyone-else (don't ask) was a terrible student... I mean, he went from school to school to school and by 9th grade he convinced his mother that he shouldn't have to attend school anymore and so they supposedly did "home schooling"... Problem is that they really didn't do any schooling... Well, one thing that Will did have going for him were alot of cimputer skills from playing virtual computer games, such as "Dungeons and Dragons"... Now I'd always heard that "Dungeons and Dragons" was a terrible game until I found out that in order to be really good at it, which my son was, one had to have a purdy decent understanding of alot of stuff that is taught in schools...

Well, to make a long story short, after a few months of Will supposedly being "home schooled" he took and passed his G.E.D. 2 years before he would have graduated from high school... He's now attedning college in Oregon and getting very good grades...

Will is just one example but there are millions and millions of kids who falt out won't thrive in a traditional school but would de very well with independent studies... This, IMO, is the future of education...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Underground History of Amer. Education
From: Bill D
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 03:10 PM

*I* say "Peter Principle" quite regularly. I am old enough to have WAY too many examples. (but the Senators from Oklahoma are a nice compact one)

Subject: RE: BS: Underground History of Amer. Education
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 22 Mar 10 - 09:24 AM

Catspaw said, inter alia:

The real shining stars who are so very special are often very short time in the position. Some move on to admin or teacher education where they may or may do as well.

Can you say "Peter Principle"?

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: BS: Underground History of Amer. Education
From: ichMael
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 10:21 PM

Education's always been an issue, Ebbie. The thing is, I think Gatto has figured out the core problem. Our school system serves as a machine to grind out a certain number of dependants and a certain number of providers. These people form the foundation of the social services industry which is so necessary to big government.

We need to quit forcing children into pre-determined classifications, and we need to stop teaching them how to self-limit.

Subject: RE: BS: Underground History of Amer. Education
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 10:04 PM

There is nothing new in this debate.

I myself did NOT read before I entered school, probably because in our family books were not considered important. However, my younger brother reminded me that I taught him on a daily basis what I had learned in school each day. When *he* started school a year later, he says he tried to conceal his ability because he thought it was embarrassing to be ahead of the other kids.

My daughter is 48 years old. Forty three years ago she entered kindergarten. She was already reading, not because I had directly taught her - but she had been read to so much she asked questions. I didn't know she could read until while on a trip I overheard her in the back seat reading to her cousin. In high school she was salutatorian of her graduating class; she went on to college, got her BA in English, married while in school, has reared three young'uns and is a writer.

That was back in 1943 and 1967, respectively. Did you know they were bewailing the school system and its results in those days? They were.

Subject: RE: BS: Underground History of Amer. Education
From: ichMael
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 09:16 PM

The Lufkin Daily News

Tuesday, November 28, 2006

According to the Texas Education Agency, the state would lose approximately $2 billion to $4 billion in federal funding if the test was not administered at all because of its inclusion in the No Child Left Behind Act. Raymond plans to work with federal officials to remove the strings attached to federal funds.

http://rickriordan.blogspot.com/2006/11/abolishing-taks-test.html

I'm a conservative, but I hated what G.W. Bush did to America. So I voted for...well, I voted Libertarian, only because I knew McCain didn't have a chance. I would have voted for Obama if I thought the vote was needed.

But now Obama's had his chance, and he's just another Bush. Same bankers backing him, same America-destroying agenda. It helps if you think of them as sock puppets. Bush is on the right hand, Obama's on the left hand, but the same puppeteer controls both. In education, Bush gave us the hated No Child Left Behind crapola. Like Bush himself, the policy is so unpopular that we'll now lurch away from it, in what we perceive to be the "other direction." But it's not really the other direction. The puppeteer is just tossing us from one hand to the other. Obama's charter school stuff and his destruction of the teachers unions will devastate American education. And then the next "fix" will be even worse. What could it be...cave schools? Sit around and grunt and draw wooly mammoths on the walls? People will defend that after Obama's gone because it's "not Obama."

Subject: RE: BS: Underground History of Amer. Education
From: catspaw49
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 03:13 PM

While I tend to agree with you Dorothy, let me make this comment. To me the problem is not with classically "bad" teachers. Teachers like so many others fall into a bell curve and the bad teachers we can eventually weed out......some sooner, some later. The real shining stars who are so very special are often very short time in the position. Some move on to admin or teacher education where they may or may do as well. Others simply leave the world of education with disgust. They aren't disgusted with the pay or the long hours but with the lack of recognition and the failure of those in charge to be able to recognize success and support their work.

The problem lies with the vast majority in education who are mediocre. Mediocrity is alive and doing quite well in the teaching profession. The nuts and bolts of teaching can be taught as any science can be taught. The art of teaching cannot be taught. We put up roadblocks and all forms of obstacles that will run many great teachers out of the job and others never to try to break through them. The mediocre group go along doing their boring utmost and doing it daily for years. They have the education and credentials to teach but they have no inspiration, no "calling," no enthusiasm....no "art."

Sad situation........

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Underground History of Amer. Education
From: Dorothy Parshall
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 01:47 PM

Random thoughts:
" Most teachers don't know they're a part of retarding the children."

There are a few very good teachers and a great number of poor to downright terrible ones. When I, as a behavioral therapist, had to point out that a six year old girl with "behavioral"   problems might not be challenged adequately in the classroom - the principal, classroom teacher and special ed teacher looked dumbfounded. "Gee maybe we need to talk to the gifted teacher..." This child could read upside down (as well as right side up) and was bored out of her gourd in the classroom. Her behavior improved when the school - and parents - made an effort.

I found that schools with excellent principals had better teachers and the children had access to the special services they needed. Teachers need to be at least as intelligent as the children they are purporting to "teach". Many are not.

The cost per student in most public schools is higher than tuition at a good private school.
This is probably due to the overabundance of "administrators" who manage to do an incredibly poor job at each level of the "system".

On the first day of a graduate course, "The Sociology of Education", the first question was "What is the purpose of the school system?" To socialize the children into the culture in which they live. If they learn to think, they are not being socialized. A shame that some kids just know how to think and no lousy school system can beat it out of them! Thankfully.

Post-doctoral research by Eigel Petersen, in the 1970s, indicated that many children are not physiologically ready to read until the age of nine. We set those kids up for failure in Kindergarten. "I can't read; there must be something wrong with me." Waldorf schools do not start to teach reading until grade 2. Steiner had more smarts a hundred years ago than most so-called "educators" of today.

Other research indicated the importance of the first school experience and its - tested and documented - effect on the IQ and the ability of a child to learn in the long term. A negative Kindergarten teacher can cause students to retain negative attitudes toward school and learning for years after. Not so strange when we consider recent learning about the influence of the outer world on infants still in utero.

If I were raising young children today, I would be very careful about finding an appropriate learning situation for each according to their own individual needs, including the possibility of home learning. I recently had occasion to thank my 50 year old son's Kindergarten teacher for the great start she gave him at the famous Charlestown Play House. She went on to get a doctorate and teach prospective teachers so there might be some good ones out there. Thank you, Miss Joan!

Subject: RE: BS: Underground History of Amer. Education
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Mar 10 - 06:43 AM

Thanks, Kat...

Actually, money from the federal government goes *in*directly to the schools thru "No Child Left Behind"... The money goes to the states with a mandate that testing regiments be in place for the schools to be able to access the funding...

Back to testing... Virginia has an appropriate acronym for it's test: S.O.L. (Standard of Learning or in some folks opinion "Shit Outta Luck"...lol...

But I don't place the blame for the failings of schools to teach critical thinking only on "No Child"... Yeah, "No Child" is certainly a major player but our country has been in a downward spiril for decades in terms of teaching people to think... It's a very complex issue/problem that has to do with the changes in our society, our families, our information systems, our consumer mentality and our use of free-time, just to name a few...

But, no matter... It is a problem that we desperately need to address if we are going to remain a competitive nation in a global and increasingly tribalized world economy ...

Bobert on the road

Subject: RE: BS: Underground History of Amer. Education
From: katlaughing
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 11:13 PM

IN our country in Colorado, they had so many children starting kindergarten this year, they had to cut all-day classes to just half-days in several schools including my grandson's. That's three hours only every day. The required curricula did not get reduced. What they were supposed to learn from 845a-3p is now crammed into three hours. The teachers have no extra help, the classes are on the too big side and everyone is stressed. If it weren't for Morgan's parents and us, even though he is very talented, possibly gifted child, it could be overwhelming. When my daughter went to the parent-teacher conference in Dec. I couldn;t believe the list of things the kids have to learn, demonstrably before school lets out in June. It's kindergarten but you wouldn't know it by what they are mandated to get done. This is a direct result of the asinine NCLB bushite. I am thrilled Pres. Obama has said it will be redone.

Bobert's right on about the critical thinking skills. In the mid-90s one of my op/ed columns was published in a textbook. The article was about teaching kids critical thinking skills, esp. pertaining to the television. I had a lot of good feedback on it, but these days with the addition of so much more media, I think it's become much more difficult to do so.

Subject: RE: BS: Underground History of Amer. Education
From: LadyJean
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 10:43 PM

If you'd like to know why kids are being drugged, don't look to teachers, look to drug companies.
I worked for a psychiatrist involved in a large study of kids with behavior issues, here in Pittsburgh.
You could have put a sign on his front door This Home Phurnished by Pfizer Pharmaceuticals.
He was well supplied with office equipment, all bearing the logos of various drug companies.
One of his kids is diabetic. He got the diabetic supplies for free from those same companies.
His wife was a screaming hypochondriac. He got her supplies from the same companies. (I think she married him just to get a steady supply of meds.)
Then there were the medical conferences the drug companies sponsored, at places like Honolulu and San Francisco. Of course he had to pay for his airfare and his hotel room, and his wife's shopping habit. But he could deduct the airfare and the hotel as a business expense.
All he had to do was push their product, and he does.

Subject: RE: BS: Underground History of Amer. Education
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 09:51 PM

No one said the bill is corrupt... just flawed and in need of either serious revision or replacement.

And neither is Missouri....I think Missouri was just trying to make a point by showing what they had to contend with... 'corrupt' is your funny way of twisting the point.

Subject: RE: BS: Underground History of Amer. Education
From: Paul Burke
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 09:30 PM

That's a collectivist outlook

I think that says it all. A lot of us are sort of collectivistish. What's your beef?

Subject: RE: BS: Underground History of Amer. Education
From: pdq
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 09:20 PM

"It may not BE logical, but I read that it happens....that article said Missouri specifically admitted to it!"

That sounds like the education establishment in Missouri is corrupt, not the bill.

Subject: RE: BS: Underground History of Amer. Education
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 08:57 PM

"....several analyses of the No Child Left Behind bill..."

I am reporting on applications OF the bill as they work, not analyses of the bill itself. Why would folks report that states ARE lowering test standards to keep funding levels, unless that was happening?

It may not BE logical, but I read that it happens....that article said Missouri specifically admitted to it!

Subject: RE: BS: Underground History of Amer. Education
From: pdq
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 08:49 PM

I have read several analyses of the No Child Left Behind bill and none claims that federal funds are directly linked to changes in test scores, either positive or negative.

I believe that low initial test scores trigger more money for poor-performing schools, but it is not logical to reduce that money if test scores go up. That is incentive for the program to fail.

Neither is it reasonable to cut funds if a poor school gets worse. Many reasons for the decline, such as changes in the neighborhood demographics.

Fact is, NCLB has been quite successful in identifying problems and addressing them. It has also been the reason for a 40%+ increase in federal funding, which is overall a good thing.

Subject: RE: BS: Underground History of Amer. Education
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 07:21 PM

(Here is the outline of an article I got in my email 2 years ago from UC Berkley) The full article is here.


NEW STUDIES ASSESS IMPACTS OF "NO CHILD" REFORMS

Teachers across the nation are redoubling efforts to lift children's achievement but report declining morale under stiff accountability policies and state-mandated curricula, according to seven new studies published today (Wednesday, Aug. 20) by UC Berkeley scholars and associates.

here is an article which is delicately written, but suggests what I said about problems

Because funding IS tied to performance, some states lower achievement standards in order TO meet the testing requirements...and teachers (good ones, anyway), are not happy with this.

I have a message somewhere from my friend in response to that article and the general situation as of 2 years ago...I'll see if I can find it.

Subject: RE: BS: Underground History of Amer. Education
From: GUEST,Bobert on the road...
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 06:52 PM

The problem with teaching to tests is that it leaves out one major area of developement: critical thinking...

Critical thinking is allready becoming obsolete... Yeah, you can dumb people down very well with rote memory skills but if you don't give them the ability to reason then, hey, we are all screwed... We are going to get a nation of Tea Baggers...

We have some folks here in Mudburg that know absolutely nothing about what I'm talking about... Yeah, they can whip up cut 'n posts by the hundreds but have no idea about the logic it takes to look at the information in those cut 'n posts and make critical assessments as to what they mean... I mean, that's for the *smart people*...

Like I said earlier, we are alot closer to "Brave New World" than we can possibly know...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: Underground History of Amer. Education
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 06:43 PM

"Please support this claim."

well, my major source of information is from a friend who has taught school for many years and is now an asst. director of the secondary special education program in one county on the West coast. It is even MORE complex designing programs for special needs kids.

I hear on a regular basis of the hassles trying to conform to the testing standards in both regular classes AND special ed. classes. I 'may' be able to get some specific details on at least that one school system's struggle to conform and get funding.

Subject: RE: BS: Underground History of Amer. Education
From: pdq
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 06:23 PM

Some facts about DOE as well as some on No Child Left Behind:

                                                       US Department of Education

{total DOE spending this fiscal year: $64.9 billion. California alone: $42.2 billion or 57.7% of general funds budget}

Subject: RE: BS: Underground History of Amer. Education
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 05:50 PM

Tinfoil alert

Subject: RE: BS: Underground History of Amer. Education
From: pdq
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 03:52 PM

"No Child Left Behind act was hated by the teachers unions because it tied FUNDING directly to basic test scores..."

Please support this claim.

Besides, the federal monitary contribution is trivial compared to the state's contribution. Nevada now spends about 55% of all state money on education.

At one time, California spent over 70% on education.

Subject: RE: BS: Underground History of Amer. Education
From: Bill D
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 03:07 PM

The No Child Left Behind act was hated by the teachers unions because it tied FUNDING directly to basic test scores, with no allowance for urban, rural, demographic, poverty levels...etc. This made it almost impossible for some schools to meet the 'standard' numbers. It was a classic G.W. Bush law, claiming to help, while not taking into account all the issues.

Subject: RE: BS: Underground History of Amer. Education
From: pdq
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 01:55 PM

"To get federal money you have to achieve certain scores on national and statewide tests..." ~ ich

I believe the money is based on ADA, that is average daily attendance, not test scores.

The No Child Left Behind act was hated by the teachers unions because it mandated student achievement testing and it was submitted by George W. Bush. Both make teachers union leaders hysterically angry.

Subject: RE: BS: Underground History of Amer. Education
From: ichMael
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 01:28 PM

Education is a business. Most people who were liberal arts majors in college will know this. No major? No problem. Take your time. Take five years instead of four (an extra year's tuition for the institution).

Public schools have become the same type of business. And it's not accidental. They grind out a percentage of people who need to be taken care of and a percentage who can be trained to do the caretaking. It's a perfect system. Some kids make it out to earn a decent paycheck in some field other than social services, but they can't really do anything beyond their specialty, and they'd be in trouble if they couldn't work in their field. A handful learn some skill that will always be of value and they're the independent ones. Not many of them around, because the system directs children away from practical studies.

Teaching to the test is the biggest tool used to dumb kids down (with drugs gaining). To get federal money you have to achieve certain scores on national and statewide tests, so school districts focus on teaching the answers to the test questions. This is a way of blocking out information that won't be on the test. This is a FEDERAL device being used to control school districts.

Subject: RE: BS: Underground History of Amer. Education
From: GUEST,Bobert on the road...
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 10:00 AM

Me thinks that "Brave New World" may be right around the corner... The problem with that scenerio is that the dumbed down vote... This is the perfect strom for disaster and I think wwe are seeibn' just how that will work out...

But the biggest problem with this is it doesn't have to be this way... Used to be that folks strove to become educated... Education was *valued*... Now we have politicans who joke about "pinhead elitists"... Unless that culture is changed, and changed rather quickly, then Huxley's world will come to pass in an even greater way than what we are seeing now... That is rather scarey because dumbed down people are too dumbed down to even know how to bahave in a civilized manner... We see that now... Redneck Nation is allready there... Gang Nation is allready there...

Yeah, folks say "Well, that can never happen here in America" but to those folks I say, "Open yer danged eyes, folks, 'cause we are at the doorstep... Funds are being cut for education everywhere you look... Here in Virginia the newly elected Governor has proposed a budget that is going to make deep cuts in K-thru-12... I saw a map the other night on the news that highlighted all the states that are cutting their education budgets and it was almost the entire nation...

But not to fear... We will still have football, NASCAR and Budweiser to fill in the voids...

Yeah, me thinks the door is open for a "brave new world"...

B

Subject: RE: BS: Underground History of Amer. Education
From: catspaw49
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 09:43 AM

As a former teacher myself, I appreciate the above posts and agree that no one with a lick of sense thinks American Education is not in trouble. I especially enjoyed Tim's post.

My problem is with the OP and his less than credible sources that Tim pointed out. Yeah.....We're in trouble here but it is not part of some grand conspiracy by the Dems, the Japanese, the Chinese, or any other "ese" or "ism" as a plan to provide fodder for the social services system.   That one is so laughable that words cannot express just how truly stupid that idea is! Social Service Agencies are failing to handle even the most needed problems in many places because the funding is not there to do so. The county agency here is not even the shell of its former self.......just a few shell chips swept off into a corner.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Underground History of Amer. Education
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 08:46 AM

My kids could read before they started kindergarten. The youngest was on 3rd grade (age 8) level when she was 5 years old. However, by the time she finished 2nd grade she had not progressed at all. How?

I sometimes volunteered in her class and discovered that the teacher read out all instructions to students, did not spend much time in reading circles with them (most of her time was taken with riding herd over the 4 or 5 students with ADHD and/ or other learning impediments). The quiet students would do worksheets (having first had instructions read out to them by the teacher) and be permitted to go to one of the learning centers dotted around the room when work was completed. My youngest's favourite was the reading center.

I discovered that it was really a listening center. Books with audio tapes with the little "ping" that told you when to turn the page. She would bring books home and read them aloud then say "ping" and turn the page. She had memorised what she heard and was not actually reading or working out new words any longer. She had become quite adamant about which books she would read for me. Only the ones that had accompanying audio tape.

Yet her report cards always said she was the best reader in the class. I asked the teacher how she assessed this. The answer, "Your daughter spends all her free time in the reading center so she must be a good reader and her work on the worksheets is correct." I argued the point that she is a good listener, but nothing shows she is a good reader. Nothing in her work shows she actually read and understood anything.

I took her out of public education and put her in a small private school for a few years to get her back on track. There she flourished and was better prepared to take on middle and high school. While in high school she also took college level general education courses in English Composition and US History, which transferred to her university work.

I don't know if there is a conspiracy to dumb down, but it seems that boards of education and teachers are placed in a limbo of catering to a very wide spectrum of ability and needs which is difficult to meet in practice.

Subject: RE: BS: Underground History of Amer. Education
From: Naemanson
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 07:51 AM

This would be a shock to those authors but the real cause of the "dumbing" of America is the loss of good examples who obviously have good educations. Many of my students do not read (they CAN, but they choose not to because it is 'too hard'). Consequently they are not exposed to any ideas that do not come from the mass culture they slavishly admire.

Also, because they choose not to read they lose the ability to read smoothly. Reading becomes that much harder. The other day one of my students asked me what the word "frequented" meant. She is a junior (11th grade). I have heard many other questions like that.

When I make the kids read aloud from the textbook many of them cringe. They stumble through the reading, pausing at unfamiliar but easy words, losing the sentence when they get to the end of the line, and not retaining the meaning of what they just read. The act of reading took too much concentration for them to retain the meaning.

One of the math teachers uses my room. Generally I work at my desk in the back while he teaches. He continually battles the poor arithmetic of the students. They understand the concepts but cannot make the problems work out because they cannot add, subtract, multiply, or divide.

Foreign languages are a problem for them because they never figured out grammar. When Wakana explains the structure of a sentence in Japanese and how it differs from the structure of an English sentence she encounters blank stares and whispers because they didn't know which is the verb and which is the noun.

English is a problem for them because they do not have a large enough vocabulary to make their sentences interesting. They usually have one or two adjectives and that is good enough for them. If you try to get them to describe something they are generally unable to do without a lot of prompting.
"It IS a pretty tree. What color are the flowers? How tall is it? Where is it growing? Does it stand out from the other growth around it? Why?"

I could go on but I this is Saturday night and I am reawakening my frustrations. They are out there tonight, filling their empty minds with drugs and alcohol and working their way into an early pregnancy because they didn't pay attention in the anatomy class on where babies come from.

Now, having said all this I don't want to leave you with the impression that there is no hope. I have brilliant students. I work with minds that can parse a sentence and see the hidden meaning within. The are thirsty for knowledge and want to go further with our topic. But as they wind up to ask their questions I can see and hear the others groaning at the idea of continuing down that rabbit hole.

I am left with the idea that the vast majority of humanity just doesn't want to deal with the ideas and knowledge that are available to them. All we can do for them is make the knowledge available and hope we can spark some interest and fan that spark until it burst free of the mass of people around them that threaten to suffocate the flame.

And I am all right with this. Sure, it is frustrating and difficult to understand but it is the way it is. There will always be a vast majority of humans who stay ignorant. And there will always be a minority of humans who want to scale the walls and climb to the top of the tower of academia.

Nothing will change without a major shift in the way mass culture looks at education. And then that shift will take a long time.

Subject: RE: BS: Underground History of Amer. Education
From: mandotim
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 07:40 AM

I posted on another thread;
'From a purely academic standpoint, Gatto's 'research' is risible. He uses the classic approach of the demagogue with a point to prove; using statistics from different samples and time frames, generalising from specific studies (even when the authors have specifically stated that this should not happen)and inferring simple, linear causal relationships where many uncontrolled factors are in play. I'd expect (and get) better from one of my undergrad students.
I'm lucky, I have access to libraries and databases where I can chase down the sources of Gatto's ideas. I did so after reading his two latest books. He's about as credible as Goleman on Emotional Intelligence, i.e. not credible at all, really.'

In my view, he's a huckster trying to make a fast buck out of a system which mostly works well. There are problems, just as there are in the UK, but the vast majority of kids come out of the system ok. Some do better than others, and they all have different experiences, but to make the kind of sweeping generalisations that Gatto does lacks any sort of face validity, let alone statistical evidence.
Tim

Subject: RE: BS: Underground History of Amer. Education
From: Folkiedave
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 07:12 AM

I suppose the question is why do some people survive in spite of the system then?

Subject: RE: BS: Underground History of Amer. Education
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 01:08 AM

I'm afraid with systems like we have in Texas and the TACS or whatever the acronym is now for the standard tests, they primarily "teach to the test." Meaning they actually had a class during the day when all they did was teach kids how to take the goddamn test. They could have been teaching a civics class and talked about the the constitution and the branches of government and the importance of voting and learning about candidates, they could have been teaching sex education and helping kids know enough to not get pregnant instead of teaching that gawdawful "abstinence only." They could have taught art or music or something truly useful.

If my kids hadn't made it into the talented and gifted classes, and if they hadn't had a couple of smart parents who recognized teaching moments all through the day (without making it a ponderous process), then my children might be dumb enough today to buy into the Republican scare tactics that Bush and Cheney so loved to program into Americans. Scare them to vote your way, because when people aren't thinking, when they are frightened, they don't think so well. You can herd them along more easily that way.

You bet our educational system is flawed. It is dumbed down. Part of it is that they aren't insisting that teachers specialize in the subjects they teach. Part of it is that parents feel their children will get everything they need at school. Part of it is that people who don't have children feel they don't need to pay school taxes, and fight tooth and nail to get out from under them, because if they don't have kids, what is the point in paying to educate someone else's kids? But wait until you need a teacher or a doctor or a nurse or a lawyer--many of those kids in school today won't qualify to get into schools to become those things, or they'll be lacking in skills they should have learned early to do a good job.

I don't know about this book, it may be by a complete Limbaugh nut job. But I know schools aren't operating the way they could, and aren't turning out graduates prepared to face our complex world. High school graduates 50 or 75 years ago were a lot better prepared, I think, than today's graduates.

All opinion, of course, but I suspect I won't have to dig hard to find the statistics to back it up.

SRS

Subject: RE: BS: Underground History of Amer. Education
From: LadyJean
Date: 20 Mar 10 - 12:41 AM

Jean learned to read at age six, like most people, though it wasn't easy for her. She never did get the hang of writing, and her math skills were a bit limited. After paying for their daughter to have a year and a half of therapy with a Fruedian psychiatrist, her parents heard about what were then called "Perceptual Handicaps". They got her to a local doctor, who was one of the few diagnosing children.
Jean spent the Friday after Thanksgiving 1963, with a bunch of electrodes attached to her scalp, having an E.E.G. That was how her parents found out that her brain doesn't work like most people's.

As with any disability I learned to live around it. I never did learn to write legibly. (And if I could have, believe me I would have.) I type everything. I can do basic math, but I do better if I do it out loud. I'm probably not the only person who talks to herself when she does her taxes. I graduated from a first rate prep school, and Ohio University. It wasn't easy. But then neither is dialing a telephone if you're me.
The disability is real. I could NOT do it if I really tried. You would be surprised at some of the things I have really tried to do. I read. I read a lot, though I read slowly. I think because I was read to a great deal, I got the idea that books were good things and I wanted to know what was in them.
I still remember the first thing I read on my own, a Yogi Bear comic strip, and the delight in discovering that the funnies were mine.
Most schools have gifted programs for smart kids. Odd that the writer doesn't mention that.

Subject: RE: BS: Underground History of Amer. Education
From: ichMael
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 10:49 PM

Nowadays they just do the levelling with drugs. Teachers have quotas. They might lose their jobs if they advance a kid and didn't properly identify Attention Deficit Disorder and other such bogus disorders. The schools get extra money for having "special needs" kids, so the incentive to drug as many as possible is very strong.

If I thought you yokels would actually investigate I'd get into the New Freedom Initiative. Passed by G.W. Bush. Drug companies are hoping to get the number of drugged kids up to 50%. Serious drugs, too. Scramble their brains and leave them mentally helpless by the time they graduate. More product for the social services industry.

Subject: RE: BS: Underground History of Amer. Education
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 10:28 PM

Also The Illuminati............

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Underground History of Amer. Education
From: Bill D
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 10:22 PM

right...You take a 'supposed' example from a biased book, and generalize from your interpretation of that to extrapolate in such a way as to justify your own belief system....

"Indians walk in single file...I know because *I* saw an Indian once, and HE was walking single file."

Subject: RE: BS: Underground History of Amer. Education
From: ichMael
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 10:08 PM

Children ARE being retarded in public schools, Ebbie. From the original post, look at this example again:

"....David learns to read at age four; Rachel, at age nine: In normal development, when both are 13, you can't tell which one learned first—the five-year spread means nothing at all. But in school I label Rachel "learning disabled" and slow David down a bit, too. For a paycheck, I adjust David to depend on me to tell him when to go and stop. He won't outgrow that dependency. I identify Rachel as discount merchandise, "special education" fodder. She'll be locked in her place forever."

I ran into a retired teacher today and this was fresh on my mind, and I asked him about it. He said it was absolutely true. Bright kids are taught to self-regulate. They put the brakes on themselves when they feel the urge to learn faster. They're taught this in their earliest years at school. And slower kids are labeled in a way that affects them the rest of their lives. Gatto got sick of the system, analyzed it and now explains it. I encourage you to read his book, or at least the parts that look interesting to you. The public school system churns out children who need to be taken care of, and the system was set up by design. It's the factory that provides product for the social services industry.

Subject: RE: BS: Underground History of Amer. Education
From: Ebbie
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 01:05 AM

I don't know if you have children, ichMael, but our children are NOT being retarded by the educational system. Individually there are children who are abused, neglected, abandoned, but that is not the aim of the school system, its teachers or concerned and involved parents.

Years ago, I came to realize that the question 'Why can't Johnny read?' is answered by 'Because Mommy and Daddy don't read'.

That may be a generalization but I believe that when Johnny's parent reach for a book when he or she sits down, perhaps discusses what he or she has been reading and anticipates his or her plans for a must-have book, Johnny will soak up naturally the information that reading is a fun, interesting thing to do.

Repeating that blather above is a mark of ignorance.

Subject: RE: BS: Underground History of Amer. Education
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 12:59 AM

My best regards to all your heroes at the Tri-Lateral Commission.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Underground History of Amer. Education
From: ichMael
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 12:46 AM

You're saying that it's GOOD to retard children to the point where they're made dependent? That's a collectivist outlook--you have to cripple children so that there will be jobs created (social services) to take care of them. That's good for the wage earners, but what about the kids?

You present a good case that being dropped on the head can be just as damaging as a bad education to a child, but surely the part of your brain that was left unmashed must be capable of SOME reasoning.

Subject: RE: BS: Underground History of Amer. Education
From: catspaw49
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 12:28 AM

Heavy reliance on John Ashbrook I notice and a lot of ultra conservative bullshit. Ashbrook himself made Pat Buchannan look like a liberal reactionary and was somewhere to the right of Genghis Khan. Though he left several endowments he is still viewed as a jackass in his home state, sorrowfully, Ohio. If you look up shit for brains jackass in the encyclopedia, you can see his picture.

Let's retitle this thread....."Reactionary Crap from the Flakey Side of the Lunatic Fringe."

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Underground History of Amer. Education
From: ichMael
Date: 19 Mar 10 - 12:08 AM

Iserbyt backs Gatto up on his points, and she was within the system, at the cabinet level in the federal government.

People support their governments because they provide some form of stability. But in exchange for that stability you have to sacrifice certain things, such as your children. Gatto just describes the sacrificial process. Most teachers don't know they're a part of retarding the children. Gatto learned he was, and he began writing and lecturing on the subject.

Subject: RE: BS: Underground History of Amer. Education
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 11:53 PM

I heard some of an interview with him and someone else on NPR, recently, but the only thing I could find in their archive was from 2003 on Talk of the Nation so maybe it was a rerun. From what I did hear, I agree, Ebbie.

Subject: RE: BS: Underground History of Amer. Education
From: Leadfingers
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 11:35 PM

That reads to me as HIS take on the way the system works , rather than the way HE would operate ,. But I am NOT in the American System !

Subject: RE: BS: Underground History of Amer. Education
From: Rowan
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 11:27 PM

Ebbie, I suspect some heavy satire is in play.

Cheers, Rowan

Subject: RE: BS: Underground History of Amer. Education
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 11:11 PM

Yikes. This is not a man I want teaching my children.

Subject: BS: Underground History of Amer. Education
From: ichMael
Date: 18 Mar 10 - 10:45 PM

Perhaps the two best books on the modern American education system are free online:

The Underground History of American Education by John Taylor Gatto

The Deliberate Dumbing Down of America by Charlotte Iserbyt.

Gatto was a highly successful teacher and Iserbyt was a deputy secretary of education during in Reagan's first administration.


From Gatto's book:

The shocking possibility that dumb people don't exist in sufficient numbers to warrant the millions of careers devoted to tending them will seem incredible to you. Yet that is my central proposition: the mass dumbness which justifies official schooling first had to be dreamed of; it isn't real....

....David learns to read at age four; Rachel, at age nine: In normal development, when both are 13, you can't tell which one learned first—the five-year spread means nothing at all. But in school I label Rachel "learning disabled" and slow David down a bit, too. For a paycheck, I adjust David to depend on me to tell him when to go and stop. He won't outgrow that dependency. I identify Rachel as discount merchandise, "special education" fodder. She'll be locked in her place forever.