BS: The adjective 'Scotch'

Subject: RE: BS: The adjective 'Scotch'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 May 10 - 11:41 AM

Not just in Britain, but in Latin America too. As here. I wonder if "Yanquis" gets used with the intention of irritating Southerners. That isn't the case in the British Isles, it's just how we have always tended to call Americans, but then the ones who are geographically closest to us are in fact Yankees.

Subject: RE: BS: The adjective 'Scotch'
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 05 May 10 - 11:09 AM

I though Yankee came from Dutch and originally referred to someone from Nieuw Amsterdam.

Subject: RE: BS: The adjective 'Scotch'
From: Lighter
Date: 05 May 10 - 10:29 AM

Southerners in states of the former Confederacy are supposedly offended when referred to as "Yanks" by Brits. That's because "Yankee" originally denoted New Englanders and, later, all Northerners. During the Civil War, "Yank" and "Yankee" were universally in use in the South to refer to Northerners.

Hence the theoretical "offensiveness" of the term as applied to a Southerner, even when it clearly refers to all Americans, as it has in Britain for 200 years.

Most Americans know this, or used to, and ordinary Southerners may object in a joking way only. At least that's my experience.

There are undoubtedly a few maniacs on the subject, but even in the South they're the exception. While the Confederate generation was still living, of course, the situation was different - understandably.

Even today, though, baseball's New York Yankees could not have been so named if they'd been organized in, say, Atlanta or Dallas. In the U.S. the primary meaning of "Yankee" and "Yank" is still "Northerner."

Few Americans overseas would identify themselves as "Yankees" because it isn't ordinarily a synonym here for "American." And though everyone knows them, the words "Yank" and "Yankee" are just not used much except in discussion about the Civil War.

Like "Scotch," it hasn't been so much the word as the context it's used in.

Language is complicated.

Subject: RE: BS: The adjective 'Scotch'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 05 May 10 - 07:04 AM

I gather there are citizens of the United States who dislike being referred to as Yanks, or Yankee/Yanqui , for similar reasons. The odd thing is that the word very likely originates in a mispronunciation of "Anglais" or "English".

Subject: RE: BS: The adjective 'Scotch'
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 05 May 10 - 06:05 AM

The only time I ever actually heard "Scotch" used as a pejorative, it was somebody berating a fellow human, in a pub.

He referred to his opponent as "Ye wee Scotch Bastard", in a heavy Glaswegian accent.

I was quite amused.

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: The adjective 'Scotch'
From: GUEST,Allan
Date: 04 May 10 - 07:25 AM

Yes I think Usain was possibly dreamed up in the mind of one individual on scs !

Subject: RE: BS: The adjective 'Scotch'
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 04 May 10 - 04:54 AM

I've never heard of usains. National nomenclature can be a minefield. Lots of anglophones still refer to the Netherlands as Holland, those that's just one province. The words for Germany and German seem to have different roots in practically every language. And of course Scotland is Alba in Gaelic (and the other Celtic languages).

Subject: RE: BS: The adjective 'Scotch'
From: GUEST,Allan
Date: 04 May 10 - 02:36 AM

"When you say American, do you mean someone from the USA or someone from elsewhere in the Americas?"

Is that a trick question? I say that because there is an awkward old Scottish guy on scs who insists Americans have no right to call themselves that because there are plenty of other countries in the Americas too. Hence he uses tha appellation Usains :-) Thought you might have looked in at some point!

Nah when I said American I meant someone from the USA. Which of course is no slur on anyone else from the USA many of whom I'm sure do know the difference between Britain and England. It doesn't really matter where you come from though does it? If you mistakenly say something wrong (and for instance many folk here in the past would have classed everyone from the USSR as Russians) it doesn't mean you are being rude - but if you insist on still doing it once your mistake has been pointed out to you as well as the fact that the mistake could offend then it turns from an innocent mistake to rudeness.

That is all I've been trying to say. It is common courtesy to not call people by a name you know they don't like to be called.

Subject: RE: BS: The adjective 'Scotch'
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 03 May 10 - 06:07 PM

When you say American, do you mean someone from the USA or someone from elsewhere in the Americas?

Subject: RE: BS: The adjective 'Scotch'
From: GUEST,Allan
Date: 03 May 10 - 06:02 PM

"I don't think I've ever heard anyone use the term "Scotch" in a derogatory or deprecatory way."

You maybe want to look in on the likes of the newsgroup soc.culture.scottish! It is maybe a crude example but if English posters are on there for positive reasons they tend to use the adjective Scottish whereas if they are trolling and trying to irritate then they tend to use Scotch. Because of course they know that the bulk of the Scottish posters on there don't like it. That is what trolls do of course.

I've actually had a similar thing from an American poster who insisted on using the term England when what was meant was Britain. He was intending to visit Scotland and was posting on scs so I thought I'd do the decent thing and explain that if he insisted on calling the locals Englishmen or suggest Scotland was part of England, then he was on very dangerous ground as most other digs are pin-pricks compared with that one. The attitude was quite amazing though. According to him because the terms England and Britain were often used synonomously in the US then no-one should object because it was normal usage. So despite the fact that he now knew that to most Scots his usage of England for Britain would be pretty offensive he didn't give a damn and would continue to use it even on scs. Just plain bad manners.

Subject: RE: BS: The adjective 'Scotch'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 May 10 - 02:32 PM

I don't think I've ever heard anyone use the term "Scotch" in a derogatory or deprecatory way. Or Scots or Scottish for that matter.

Subject: RE: BS: The adjective 'Scotch'
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 02 May 10 - 07:22 PM

Re-posting due to a last minute typo (<"/i> doesn't work like "</i>). A clone may delete the preceding post:

As Don T's example sort of demonstrates, it has been my observation that "to Scotch" also can be used as a verb.

The consistently derogatory/deprecatory usage of this verb form, among a fairly large group of former associates among whom the distinction between persons originating in "Scotland" and those coming from "Ireland" was unknown (defamation by association?), and the proclivity of some associates to attempt to find or invent derogatory meanings in every use of the word "Scotch" that might be construed to have a "verb usage," led me to prefer the term "Scots" for the adjective referring to persons.

Given that I encountered - in that time 40 years ago - very few persons who needed to be described by ethnicity, I was never able, or much inclined, to ask about their preferences; but for most of my associates, "Scots" or "Scotsman" saved a lot of time by evading the necessity of explaining what form of insult I intended and/or of denying their invented slurs.

As the "verb usage" seems to have faded, except within a few narrowly constituted sub-cultures, I would be amenable to modification of my customary usage - should this thread (or similar pedantry) arrive at a useful conclusion. Pending that, I suspect that I can find other clouds of feathers to fight more productively. (?)

John

Subject: RE: BS: The adjective 'Scotch'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 May 10 - 06:51 PM

True enough for the Danes - also the Swedes and the Finns.

Subject: RE: BS: The adjective 'Scotch'
From: GUEST,Allan
Date: 02 May 10 - 06:44 PM

"As against the Scots who are Scottish, and drink Scotch whisky."

Aye I don't know how I got to Welsh either. Misunderstood what you were saying! Of course you are right a Scot is Scottish though he is also Scots as the two terms Scots and Scottish are basically interchangeable. How about the Danes are Danish?

Subject: RE: BS: The adjective 'Scotch'
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 May 10 - 12:09 PM

""Scotch as a verb (meaning to stop) has no connection with Scotch as an adjective. And scot as a tax has nothing to do with Scot as a person.""

Why thank you sir for enlightening this poor ignorant Englishman.

I hadn't realised that!

Aside:- "Let's see if if sarcasm is easier to recognise than irony!....LOL".

Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: The adjective 'Scotch'
From: Paul Burke
Date: 02 May 10 - 11:58 AM

Americans are American

Unless they are Mexican, or Brazilian, or Eskimo (as in Inuit Nell), or... in fact, the only Americans who we haven't got a name for are the ones from the USA. Well, actually we do have several names for them, but out of politeness...

Subject: RE: BS: The adjective 'Scotch'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 May 10 - 11:40 AM

How so? The Welsh are Welsh, and produce Welsh Cheese, the Swiss are Swiss, and make Swiss Chocolate, while the Maltese are Maltese, and display the Maltese Cross on their flag.

As against the Scots who are Scottish, and drink Scotch whisky.

Subject: RE: BS: The adjective 'Scotch'
From: MikeL2
Date: 02 May 10 - 10:27 AM

Hi

Malta ??? Maltese....the list goes on...

cheers

MikeL

Subject: RE: BS: The adjective 'Scotch'
From: GUEST,Allan
Date: 02 May 10 - 04:01 AM

"I'm trying to think of any other country where the adjective for a nationality is different from the term for a native - Germans are German, Americans are American, English are English, Irish are Irish. The only other exception I can think of is Argentinia, where the Argentinians live."

Surely you don't need to look too far as peple from Wales are Welsh :-) Also there is the Swiss!

Subject: RE: BS: The adjective 'Scotch'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 May 10 - 07:00 PM

With an "i" removed...

Subject: RE: BS: The adjective 'Scotch'
From: Paul Burke
Date: 01 May 10 - 06:46 PM

So good you said it twice....

Subject: RE: BS: The adjective 'Scotch'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 May 10 - 03:10 PM

I'm trying to think of any other country where the adjective for a nationality is different from the term for a native - Germans are German, Americans are American, English are English, Irish are Irish. The only other exception I can think of is Argentina, where the Argentinians live.

And if French and Dutch are OK words, it's a bit hard to see why Scotch should be a problem.

Still, if Scots prefer to be called Scots, that's their choice, and I'm happy enough to comply. So long as I don't have to start talking about "Scottish Eggs"...

Subject: RE: BS: The adjective 'Scotch'
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 May 10 - 01:54 PM

I'm trying to think of any other country where the adjective for a nationality is different from the term for a native - Germans are German, Americans are American, English are English, Irish are Irish. The only other exception I can think of is Argentinia, where the Argentinians live.

And if French and Dutch are OK words, it's a bit hard to see why Scotch should be a problem.

Still, if Scots prefer to be called Scots, that's their choice, and I'm happy enough to comply. So long as I don't have to start talking about "Scottish Eggs"...

Subject: RE: BS: The adjective 'Scotch'
From: Paul Burke
Date: 01 May 10 - 01:54 PM

Scotch as a verb (meaning to stop) has no connection with Scotch as an adjective. And scot as a tax has nothing to do with Scot as a person.

By the way, has anyone tried Campbell's soup with a McDonald's burger?

Subject: RE: BS: The adjective 'Scotch'
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 10 - 07:19 AM

After they Welshed on the Limeys, they all got off Scot free.

Subject: RE: BS: The adjective 'Scotch'
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 06:19 PM

At first I thought you guys might be in need of a referee.

Then I recalled the words of a favourite Western character of many years ago.

"In this town, son, we believe a man should scotch his own snakes".

Night All
Don T.

Subject: RE: BS: The adjective 'Scotch'
From: Art Thieme
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 03:15 PM

Rapaire,

I, too, recall when the molasses tanks busted open. I've always wondered how they found so many moles from which to separate that many asses.

Art

Subject: RE: BS: The adjective 'Scotch'
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 12:34 PM

Drunk it?
I know the man they named it after!

Subject: RE: BS: The adjective 'Scotch'
From: Lighter
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 11:23 AM

"Why the fuss?" "Tempest in a teapot." Etc.

Quite true. And as a Yank I agree. But now you're using reason, which is often a mistake when trying to figure out somebody's reaction to a word.

Language isn't logical. It's psychological.

BTW, it would take a very weird Southerner to be truly (not jocularly) offended simply by being referred to as a "Yank" by a Limey. I mean a Brit. Or an Aussie. I mean an Ozzie.

Subject: RE: BS: The adjective 'Scotch'
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 10:29 AM

But, of course, it's only really a Scotch pie if it's filled with mutton.

Subject: RE: BS: The adjective 'Scotch'
From: MikeL2
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 09:37 AM

Hi art

< "If you were driving by wherever they were doing that, the aroma of peat fires was wonderfully pungent in the air all around. It was as good an olfactory treat as you could achieve from sniffing deeply from any glass of Laphroaig single-malt whiskey. (That was always my personal favorite scotch.)">

My you paint an evocative picture !! yummy.

I have no wish to be pedeantic but as this thread is about correct descriptions and spelling of Scottish words may I point out that the word "whisky" is spelt differently for Scotch than for Irish.

Laphroaig is a scotch so it is spelt "whisky" eg without the "e".

I am sure that like me you don't really care a hoot how it is spelt, especially after a few drams of the beautiful peaty brew....lol

I have one in my cupboard, only for my consumption!!, the guests get Glenfiddich if they are lucky.....if not they get Bell's

I also have a 15 year old bottle of Jameson's Whiskey. Very palatable...try it do.

Cheers

MikeL2

Subject: RE: BS: The adjective 'Scotch'
From: Ed T
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 09:13 AM

Anyone tried this one...the scotch that is?
http://www.ratebeer.com/beer/tyranena-sheep-shagger-scotch-ale/97645/

Subject: RE: BS: The adjective 'Scotch'
From: Jim McLean
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 08:53 AM

To be honest, Allan, it doesn't really bother me whether I'm called a Scots git or a Scotch git, I think the word 'git' is the insulting word. I tend to use the word 'Scotch' as an adjective now and then and I must say when in English company, I'm often pulled up as they think it is an insult to us Scots. I'm afraid I can't see what's insulting ... is it because they are comparing me to whisky, or what?
Burns used the term Scotch and Scotchmen more times than I could mention. He also used Scots and Scotsmen so, as I said, why the fuss? As a teacher I learned not to rise to deliberate baiting, the angry reaction is what the children wanted and a smile deflated them. They thought they were insulting me only becaause some Scots would have agreed with them. Just smile and if the goading continues, gi'e them a guid, Scotch kiss!

Subject: The Adjective Scotch
From: GUEST,Allan
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 08:00 AM

"there are occasions when language can be modified and words in use for over 200 years can be used without creating a furore."

I don't think many folk would bother to change old songs or literature etc, and no-body seems to be creating a furore - however it is true that most Scots simply don't like being labled as Scotch. As Crow Sister says if someone knows that Scots don't like the term then why use it? It can only be to be deliberately awkward at best. Different for North Americans who may quite innocently call Scottish people Scotch without realsing the nuances, but I imagine the vast majority of English people know full well that Scots tend not to like it. Hence as has been stated already if you get even jocularly insulted by an Englishman then the adjective used prior to 'git' or whatever tends to be Scotch rather than Scottish or Scots as they know very well it isn't liked. The truth is language changes and what was once a common term then becomes old fashioned and disused then in turn later becomes almost derogatory even if it is very mildly used that way.

Subject: RE: BS: The adjective 'Scotch'
From: Jim McLean
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 04:49 AM

It's all in the ear, I think. There's a maudlin kind of song called "Old Scotch Mother Mine", written about 60 years ago Old Scotch Mother
A kind of pub song, sung after a few drams but always with the adjective 'Scotch'. I've heard it sung hundreads of times (in Scotland) but recently a young lady sang it as 'Old Scots Mother Mine' and it sounded so prissy, mim-moued, and anglified. So I think there are occasions when language can be modified and words in use for over 200 years can be used without creating a furore. The even older adjective was 'Scottis' paralleling 'Englis'.

Subject: RE: BS: The adjective 'Scotch'
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 04:10 AM

Not exactly a 'tempest', but if Scottish people dislike the term, why use it?

I don't particularly dig 'Brit' myself, because it conjours up shaven headed, swaggering, lager swilling blokes, wearing Union Flag shorts (usually bellowing loudly at the locals, whilst on holiday in sunny Spain).

I've heard some American's object to the use of 'Merkan', so I wouldn't use that. I doubt I'd be inclined to use 'Yank' either, unless I were speaking with an American who used it themselves.

And similar to Scotch as whisky, the only time I'd use the term 'chinky' is if we are ordering a Chinese takeaway - as in "lets get a chinky in" - never in reference to a Chinese *person* - it's a word that's only good for speaking about fast food created for English punters containing heart stopping quantities of MSG.

Referencing what "my ancestors" a few hundred years ago might have said and done, fails to lend any weight of validity to a personal opinion about Scottish people today, and how *they* prefer to be referred to.

If they don't like it, there's no call to use it. Two other perfectly usable alternatives are available: Scots and Scottish. No problem.

Subject: RE: BS: The adjective 'Scotch'
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 30 Apr 10 - 04:04 AM

We're getting to the point where we're going to have to define English. Do we mean belong to the English Kingdom, do we mean the West Germanic language spoken in England, or the West Germanic language in the British Isles. In the late Middle Ages the two principle languages spoken in Scotland were known as English and Irish, though later English became known as Scots to differentiate it from the varieties spoken south of the border. In the Highlands, the choice in later centuries was between Gaelic and English, as the SSPCK (among others) regarded Gaelic (and Scots) as uncivilized, though I've noticed recently that Highland English seems to be becoming more Scoticized.

Subject: RE: BS: The adjective 'Scotch'
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 11:48 PM

Of course Scotch is an English term but so is Scot and Scottish. My ancestors called themselves Scotch when speaking English,which to them was a foreign tongue. In Gaelic they were Gaels but this term would not apply to everyone from Scotland. Scotch included descendants of natives of Scotland as Irish descendants still consider themselves Irish. The great dispora of these Gaels took place in the early to mid 1800's so the term still lives even if it has fallen out of favour in Scotland itself. As I said "a tempest in a teapot"!

Subject: RE: BS: The adjective 'Scotch'
From: Rapparee
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 10:50 PM

Art, I remember that from my youth: the odor of the peat, the sales at the 3M plant...you bring back memories. I also remember the time the plant's riverside holding tanks burst, like the molasses tanks in Boston a few years back but a far better product. Fish from the entire Upper River made their way to the spill, along with every person with a john boat, a sponge, and a bucket.

Subject: RE: BS: The adjective 'Scotch'
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 09:33 PM

:0) G'night all!

Subject: RE: BS: The adjective 'Scotch'
From: Smokey.
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 09:10 PM

Yes, I got it on Ebay from a Scotsman who'd hardly ever used it.

Seriously - it's really all an act - I'm actually just some twat on the internet.

Subject: RE: BS: The adjective 'Scotch'
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 09:02 PM

My condolences Smokey....I didn't realise you were E.....H.
It was the sense of humour which threw me....is it an implant?

Subject: RE: BS: The adjective 'Scotch'
From: Smokey.
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 08:42 PM

No Ake, I always say 'Scottish' - out of respect.

Subject: RE: BS: The adjective 'Scotch'
From: akenaton
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 08:27 PM

The Scots don't like the term, because it's often used by chinless wonders with English accents, to fill the space between "fuckin'" and "bastards"......Ake

Subject: RE: BS: The adjective 'Scotch'
From: Lighter
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 07:22 PM

The OED has an interesting quote from an American of Scottish parentage, writing in 1943:

"It is only in recent years that certain Anglo-American friends have made me feel guilty of committing a particularly bourgeois faux pas by using the word. We always looked on Scottish as rather affected, overly poetic."

Subject: RE: BS: The adjective 'Scotch'
From: GUEST,Allan
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 06:28 PM

("===I believe Scotch was historically an English form, which only found general use within Scotland during the 19th century. ===

I think not, Dave Mackenzie. See Boswell ~~ he was conversing with Dr Johnson admittedly; but he was a Scot himself! ")

Dave is absolutely correct in saying that the term 'Scotch' was an English form which was imported into Scotland itself. During the 18thC there was real anglicisation amongst sections of Scottish society as they tried to throw off their Scots dialects and many English forms took hold. For example another introduction was the use of apostrophes to denote letters which would be present if writing in standard English. During the 20thC the use of Scotch largley fell out of use in Scotland itself as the native terms of Scottish and Scots came back into general use. Scotch became regarded as old fashioned and more restricted to being used an an adjective for whisky etc. It was never really a derogatory term though insisting on using a term when one knows it isn't now generally liked by the recipients is just a wee bit rude.

Subject: RE: BS: The adjective 'Scotch'
From: Smokey.
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 05:14 PM

Try some Laphroaig quarter-cask if you can get it over there, Art.

Subject: RE: BS: The adjective 'Scotch'
From: Art Thieme
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 04:51 PM

There was a Minnesota Mining and Manufacturing / Three M plant on the Iowa side of the Mississippi River back in the 1990s when I was singing and telling tall tales on Capt. Dennis Trone's steamboat Julia Belle Swain and also the diesel boat Twilight. On occasion they would have a huge sale of their Scotch Tape that had flaws of various kinds. People came from all over with their pickup trucks to load up on this commodity. At home that night, they would squeeze the juice out using a large press devise---and then they'd drink it down.

If you were driving by wherever they were doing that, the aroma of peat fires was wonderfully pungent in the air all around. It was as good an olfactory treat as you could achieve from sniffing deeply from any glass of Laphroaig single-malt whiskey. (That was always my personal favorite scotch.)

Try it; you'll like it!!

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: BS: The adjective 'Scotch'
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 04:18 PM

Oh, so you're right, and we're brainwashed then!
Language evolves, apparently pedantry doesn't

Subject: RE: BS: The adjective 'Scotch'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 04:08 PM

Seriously, tho, Lox ~~ your view is not universal, even among Scots/Scottish/Scotch people: see e.g. the second post in the thread from Sandy McLean ~~ is not that a Scottish-&c enuf name 4U? Nor have I endeavoured anywhere to lecture anyone as to what words or nomenclatures they should be using, but simply drawn attention to the fact that some of the best writers of the nationality in question [Boswell, Stevenson] have unselfconsciously used the now despised BY SOME usage, and requested comments.

My previous response to your previous post was I admit somewhat evasive, [& perhaps not as mannerly as one should always wish to be, for which I beg your pardon]; but the fact is that I am simply interested in why SOME Scots (not all ~ I call attention to Mr McLean again) have permitted themselves to have been so brainwashed by what I continue to suspect was a late C19 temperance genteelism of English origin.

While fully taking your point that meanings of words evolve, I have seen no denial of that particular postulation so far.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: The adjective 'Scotch'
From: Paul Burke
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 04:05 PM

A Scotch yoke doesn't involve Englishmen, Irishmen and Dootchmen.

Subject: RE: BS: The adjective 'Scotch'
From: Smokey.
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 04:02 PM

I only ever refer to eggs and pies as Scotch, and whisky when it is necessary to verbally distinguish it from Irish. I was always led to believe Scottish people objected to it, and the last thing we need is uppity Scotchmen marauding all over the place in skirts. It's best to respect their wishes.

Subject: RE: BS: The adjective 'Scotch'
From: Lox
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 03:42 PM

I see I have touched a nerve.

Shot down in flames and lacking a salient response MtheGM reached for his holster and pulled out his insult gun and fired a burst of blanks.

I wonder if he will deepen his self imposed humiliation and inferred ridicule with another tantrum, or if he will be a big boy and acknowledge his error.

I admit that it's unlikely, especially in consideration of the fact that the purpose of this thread appears to be to lecture Scottish people as to why he is allowed to call them names they don't like.

So at least he is consistent, but calling others names of any sort is very naughty and he really ought to behave better and stop making excuses.

Subject: RE: BS: The adjective 'Scotch'
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 03:23 PM

My mammy done tole me.....

Subject: RE: BS: The adjective 'Scotch'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 03:20 PM

=== MtheGM could do well to emply the term "context" here.=====

Sorry Lox, don't know how to emply anything.

Learn to spell before daring to patronise me, you careless pillock!

Subject: RE: BS: The adjective 'Scotch'
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 03:18 PM

"===I believe Scotch was historically an English form, which only found general use within Scotland during the 19th century. ===

I think not, Dave Mackenzie. See Boswell ~~ he was conversing with Dr Johnson admittedly; but he was a Scot himself! "

I said general use. Boswell was one person, and first met Dr Johnson three years after he ran away to London in 1760, and was by then an English resident.

Subject: RE: BS: The adjective 'Scotch'
From: Lox
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 02:45 PM

Language evolves and meanings change.

Gay meant happy, then it meant homosexual.

I have recently heard homosexuals referring to uncool, people and things as being "a bit gay"

There are hundreds of words that were used in burns time, not least by burns, whose meanings have changed, or have dropped out of usage or become irrelevant.

MtheGM could do well to emply the term "context" here.

The world, even scotland is a different place to what it was when burns was alive. Its languages have changed, including the meanings and usages of words.

"Scotch" has evolved.

It is no longer a legitimate way of describing scottish people.

If you want to know how to use a word today, it is better to use a current dictionary.

Subject: RE: BS: The adjective 'Scotch'
From: gnu
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 02:27 PM

Scotch whisky? Scottish Whiskey? Is scotch a whiskey?

I am confuzzled.

Subject: RE: BS: The adjective 'Scotch'
From: Lighter
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 01:28 PM

Nobody doubts it was good enough for Robert Burns, but that was then and this is now.

I don't believe anyone has ever surveyed a large, stratified random sample of Scots to find out what the majority really thinks (and under what circumstances, i.e., who's saying or writing it, when, to whom, and how).

Of course, the minority view might still be important. And some unpredictable media event could send the prevailing opinion in the opposite direction at any time.

On to the next enigma.

Subject: RE: BS: The adjective 'Scotch'
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 01:04 PM

Well Scotch in referring to whisky, is almost exclusively a North American habit.

Scotch and Wry however is a different matter. ;)

Subject: RE: BS: The adjective 'Scotch'
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 12:42 PM

"Do you expect Britch, Polsh, Spanch and Turkch to catch on?"

Nope..but they don't have liquors competing for the adjective form.

Subject: RE: BS: The adjective 'Scotch'
From: Tootler
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 12:32 PM

When I was young and living in Aberdeen, my Scots Mother's friends and relatives were all adamant that they were "Scots" or "Scottish" and that "Scotch" referred to Whisky and the like.

However I have never heard a Scotsman (or Scotswoman) refer to Whisky as "Scotch", it's always "Whisky".

So whatever the OP has to say about it, current usage seems to be Scots or Scottish.

BTW, I have noticed that the Firefox spellchecker does not like "Whisky", it seems to prefer "Whiskey". Now while I like the Irish product, I feel spellcheckers should include both forms. Off to add the Scots form to the spellchecker.

Subject: RE: BS: The adjective 'Scotch'
From: Jack Campin
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 12:14 PM

"Scottish" is simply harder to say than "Scotch" when needing an adjective form, so I assume 'Scotch' will continue to be used at odd times

Do you expect Britch, Polsh, Spanch and Turkch to catch on?

Subject: RE: BS: The adjective 'Scotch'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 11:52 AM

===I believe Scotch was historically an English form, which only found general use within Scotland during the 19th century. ===

I think not, Dave Mackenzie. See Boswell ~~ he was conversing with Dr Johnson admittedly; but he was a Scot himself!

~Michael~

Subject: RE: BS: The adjective 'Scotch'
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 11:38 AM

Not Cunning Celts though?

:D

Subject: RE: BS: The adjective 'Scotch'
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 11:20 AM

The Scoti were only one of the peoples who went to make modern Scotland. However, as their royal line took over the numerically superior Picts, and later the Brtish and Anglo-Saxons (not to mention the Norse), the name applied to the kingdom and hence the people. A bit like how the the Gauls became known by the name of a Germanic tribe.

Subject: RE: BS: The adjective 'Scotch'
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 11:17 AM

"Scottish" is simply harder to say than "Scotch" when needing an adjective form, so I assume 'Scotch' will continue to be used at odd times. Now that the whisky/whiskey has acquired the noun form, usage has adapted to reflect this.
It is rather a minor issue, as these things go.

Subject: RE: BS: The adjective 'Scotch'
From: Rapparee
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 10:46 AM

Historically, I believe that they should be called "Irish." Or the Irish called "Scots."

Oh hell, lump 'em together with the Welsh, the Bretons, the Manx, the Galatians and the rest and call 'em all "Celts" (with a hard C, please!).

Subject: RE: BS: The adjective 'Scotch'
From: SINSULL
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 09:43 AM

Scotch Tape?

Subject: RE: BS: The adjective 'Scotch'
From: Dave MacKenzie
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 08:56 AM

I believe Scotch was historically an English form, which only found general use within Scotland during the 19th century.

Subject: RE: BS: The adjective 'Scotch'
From: Bob the Postman
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 08:29 AM

Scotch is the English word for Scots and Scots is the Inglis word for Scotch.

Subject: RE: BS: The adjective 'Scotch'
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 08:16 AM

Sigh!

of Scots descent somewhere in the mix, allegedly...

Subject: RE: BS: The adjective 'Scotch'
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 08:14 AM

I understood that the term Scotch was applied to things other than people. Scotch Whisky, Scotch eggs etc. A person is a Scot, his nationality is Scottish. Mike's term, above, is a puzzler for me - Good enough for the Scots. The race is not an individual or on a personal level, but an inanimate term in certain respect. I would guess therefore that the term 'Good enough for the Scotch' may be acceptable. Not that I would try in on friends north of the border:-)

It came from the Romans BTW - Scoti was the term they used for raiders from Ireland to Roman Occupied Britain. They settled in the west of what is now Scotland and by occupation, integration and inter-marriage became part of the native culture which was primarily Pictish (I think!). How the Romans came by the term is not clear but it is them that first recorded it. I am not sure whether Hadrian built his wall to keep out the Picts or Scoti!

Cheers

DeG

Subject: RE: BS: The adjective 'Scotch'
From: MikeL2
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 06:23 AM

Subject: RE: BS: The adjective 'Scotch'
From: John MacKenzie - PM
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 04:15 AM

Hi John

I concur. As a Sassenach who lived and worked in Scotland for some years I was often rebuked by the locals for calling them "scotch".

So I don't really care what the books say.....what's good enough for the Scots is good enough for me.

cheers

MikeL2

Subject: RE: BS: The adjective 'Scotch'
From: bubblyrat
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 06:12 AM

Scotch boiler

   Scotch bonnet
   
               Scotch an ugly rumour ("Mad" Magazine did a wonderful take on this,many years ago !)

          Scotch whisky

                   Mary Queen of Scots

            No problem !!

Subject: RE: BS: The adjective 'Scotch'
From: VirginiaTam
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 05:46 AM

My Mamma (now 82 born and raised in Virginia) said that we are of Scots-Irish descent on her mother's (born and raised in West Virginia) side.

That is the way I learned it at my mother's knee. Scotch as in butterscotch and Scots as in people of Scotland.

Subject: RE: BS: The adjective 'Scotch'
From: Jim McLean
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 05:00 AM

MtheGM this topic has been hammered to death over the years. The answer is very simple: Scot is a noun, Scotch can be a noun or an adjective. Scotch was used extensively in the 19th century as an adjective to describe people but fell out of favour due to a narrow minded attitude which thought the use of Scotch to describe people compared them to whisky (whiskey) ... and please don't start on 'whisky' being Scotch (Scottish) and 'whiskey' referring to Irish.

Subject: RE: BS: The adjective 'Scotch'
From: Crow Sister (off with the fairies)
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 04:24 AM

"It is now used mostly by non Scots"

That's the key.

I would generally try to use a term of reference for a culture, which the culture in question preferred themselves.
Obviously I'm going to make mistakes sometimes, but when I'm corrected then I'll endevour to correct that error in future.

Not a fan of Scotch (whiskey), though I do like Scotch Eggs I must say :)

Subject: RE: BS: The adjective 'Scotch'
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 04:15 AM

Here we go again, the same old nit picking crsp.
YES linguistically you are correct, so I assume that will justify your scholarly little adventure.
Most Scots, object to being called Scotch, and it has largely fallen into disuse.
It is now used mostly by non Scots, and pedants.

Subject: RE: BS: The adjective 'Scotch'
From: Sandy Mc Lean
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 12:18 AM

Some have created a tempest in a teapot over this but my ancestors considered themselves "Scotch"! It's good enough for me and I would only defer to someone who speaks better Gaelic than myself! Tha mi an dochas mar sin co dhuibh!

Subject: BS: The adjective 'Scotch'
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 29 Apr 10 - 12:05 AM

I reproduce here (with some additional emphases) a response I have just made above the line to a Catter who had claimed, as Scots tend to do, that the form of the national adjective 'Scotch' can only be properly applied to the national drink, & not to the people or anything else ~~

"as to 'Scotch' being whisky, not people: that, I would suggest, is merely a late-Victorian genteelism, probably of temperance origin. Any of the great Scotch-Scots-Scottish writers prior to that [check out Burns, Scott, Stevenson et al] would quite uninhibitedly have indifferently used 'Scots', 'Scottish'', or 'Scotch' as their chosen adjective for the people, the language, or whatever. I would adumbrate Stevenson's description of Lord Justice Braxfield, in his essay on Raeburn's Portraits in 'Virginibus Puerisque' [Braxfield being generally regarded as the origin of RLS's 'Weir Of Hermiston'], as "the last judge on the Scotch bench to employ the pure Scotch idiom".

Any comments? ~~ especially welcome from Scotch Catters!

~Michael~