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Subject: RE: Origins: El Paso: Why did he run? From: GUEST,Guest Tim Date: 28 Jul 20 - 03:43 AM When I was working on a job for British Telecom I spent a year in El Paso working across the border in Juarez, every time I flew into the airport all you would hear was Marty Wilde on a permanent loop....arghhhhhh |
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Subject: RE: Origins: El Paso: Why did he run? From: GUEST,Observer Date: 27 Jul 20 - 07:28 PM cnd read the question asked in the title of the thread - it's got nothing to do with music, it has nothing to do with the song. It is on the other hand all about possible reasons for our lad doing a runner in the situation he found himself in. " I intentionally looked in dates past the 1850s, for the period when flintlocks dropped heavily out of usage in favor of more modern revolvers" Pity that as out of your first list of 31 incidents only 10 of them were later than 1850. Differentiation between a 1-on-1 gunfight and a duel? The latter is a rather formal affair and involves a number of other people, the two duelists of course, each of whom have a second, a referee and a doctor. The duel itself has strict rules of procedure as to how the duel itself is organised, i.e. place, time, weapons [Normally all the choice of the person challenged] - the one thing a duel is not is spontaneous it is planned. Now then cnd does that resemble in any way the circumstance, the situation and what was described in the song? Reading back it was YOU who described gunfights as duels - put simply they are not, the two could not be more different. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: El Paso: Why did he run? From: jojofolkagogo Date: 27 Jul 20 - 11:30 AM Great video with Monkeys !!! My fave line is: "out where the horses were ti i i ed, I picked a good one, it looked like it could run" Where was his own horse then?? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: El Paso: Why did he run? From: cnd Date: 27 Jul 20 - 09:44 AM The only thing I'll say in response, since this is a music thread and should be focused primarily on music and not American gun-fighting traditions, is that I intentionally looked in dates past the 1850s, for the period when flintlocks dropped heavily out of usage in favor of more modern revolvers, and that your differentiation between a 1-on-1 gunfight and a duel makes little sense to me. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: El Paso: Why did he run? From: Dave Hanson Date: 27 Jul 20 - 07:13 AM and incidently that was standing still and no distractions. Dave H |
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Subject: RE: Origins: El Paso: Why did he run? From: Dave Hanson Date: 27 Jul 20 - 07:11 AM Having used 2 types of pistol when I was in HM Forces I can tell you they are hopelessly inaccurate over anything more than a few yards, we used firstly the .38 Smith and Wesson which gave way to the 9mm Browning, the standard pistol range was 5 yards. Dave H |
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Subject: RE: Origins: El Paso: Why did he run? From: GUEST,Observer Date: 27 Jul 20 - 04:35 AM cnd "duels" are not gunfights as depicted in Wild West novels, in retrospectively written songs or in the movies. Your first link - take a look at the time line it covers. From Flint-lock, through cap-lock to single action and then to double action handguns. If you are talking about "gunfights" as described in the song that this thread is about you can basically discount anything from your list using anything but double action revolvers, certainly anything using flint-locks or cap-locks [No quick draw possible due to nature and size of the weapons - these were the two men pacing out ten steps turning on command and both taking aim before firing type duels]. A quick draw using a single action pistol is problematic as to fire the gun it takes the following distinct actions to fire the weapon: 1. Drawn the weapon from a belt or from a holster; 2. Use your thumb or spare hand to pull back the hammer to cock the weapon; 3. Aim the weapon; 4. Pull the trigger to discharge the firearm. [So as I stated before Tutt was dead the second Hickok cocked his firearm - as Hickok had bought himself time to take deliberate aim - i.e. not a western gunfight as inaccurately portrayed in fiction, in song, or on film] As opposed to a double action where you just draw the gun and pull the trigger. The "double" in double action refers to the pulling of the trigger performing the double action of cocking the gun and releasing the sear to allow the hammer to strike the cartridge. So much for: "So in anger I challenged his right for the love of this maiden Down went his hand for the gun that he wore My challenge was answered in less than a heartbeat The handsome young stranger lay dead on the floor" |
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Subject: RE: Origins: El Paso: Why did he run? From: cnd Date: 26 Jul 20 - 06:17 PM Observer, I have to disagree with your addition to this thread. While the impact and role of dueling has been greatly magnified and glorified in the American re-interpretation of Western expansion of the 1940s, dueling certainly did happen. Check this link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_duels#United_States By my count there are at least 7 well-documented duels in the American West in that list. And those are only duels between people well-known enough to be historically documented. And a quick search of historical records can easily turn up more; I found this duel and this duel (both not mentioned in the Wikipedia link above) in a matter of minutes. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: El Paso: Why did he run? From: GUEST,Observer Date: 26 Jul 20 - 06:08 PM Hardly Wild Bill appeared in the square cocked his pistol [So his gun is ready to fire immediately, Tutt's wasn't]. The distance between the two men was given by all accounts as being 75 yards [Put a hand gun in most people's hands and they will not succeed in hitting a man sized target at 20 yards] Tutt drew his gun and in the meantime Wild Bill rested the barrel of his gun on his forearm taking deliberate aim and shot Tutt in the chest between the fifth and seventh ribs. In reality at that range Tutt was dead the second Hickok cocked his gun. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: El Paso: Why did he run? From: Mysha Date: 26 Jul 20 - 03:32 PM Wild Bill vs. David Tutt? On the other hand: There also doesn't seem to be anything to say the El Paso horse thief didn't have his gun out beforehand. The cantina, BTW, is "Rose's". Bye Mysha |
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Subject: RE: Origins: El Paso: Why did he run? From: GUEST,Observer Date: 26 Jul 20 - 09:26 AM "Maybe this guy was a famous gun slinger. After all, the other guy drew first, so he must have been very good with a gun." Rather surreal thread this, considering that nothing like this, ever actually happened in the real "wild west" - no actual recorded instances of any gunfight as depicted in any western ever took place. Of course people got shot, but they were not killed in duel type situations it was just plain murder. For example those shot by Billy the Kid were shot from ambush normally from down an alley and Billy's weapon of choice was a rifle. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: El Paso: Why did he run? From: gillymor Date: 26 Jul 20 - 06:33 AM Yeah, "Trail Songs and Gunfighter Ballads" contained two great songs on it, the other being Big Iron. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: El Paso: Why did he run? From: cnd Date: 25 Jul 20 - 10:32 AM Joe, in regards to the lyrics, they seem spotless except for some weird choices at line breaks occasionally and that I've always assumed the woman's name was "Rose" and not Rosa, though I suppose it doesn't make much difference. The only other comment I would make is that Robbins recorded two versions of the song: a short(er) version (4:23) and a long(er) version (4:40). The only difference is that the long version includes the 4-line stanza that starts with "Just for a moment I stood there in silence" while the other one does not. Not sure which one was on the album or why they chose to remove the lines of moral reflection. To answer the original question, I think Wikipedia's surmisation here is a good one: "The singer kills the newcomer, then flees El Paso for fear of being hanged for murder or killed in revenge by his victim's friends. In the act of escaping, the singer commits the additional and potentially hanging offense of horse theft... further sealing his fate." I think the friends coming to kill him is more likely that murder by law until the horse theft. It was, like others have said, the Old West, and he seems mostly "justified" in the Old West's sense of things. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: El Paso: Why did he run? From: GUEST,Observer Date: 25 Jul 20 - 07:41 AM The ACME lightning course on Shorthand? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: El Paso: Why did he run? From: Dave Hanson Date: 25 Jul 20 - 02:26 AM The real question is how he managed to write it all down before he died ? Dave H |
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Subject: RE: Origins: El Paso: Why did he run? From: Joe Offer Date: 25 Jul 20 - 01:09 AM We need a corrected and documented set of lyrics. Here's the version in the Digital Tradition: EL PASO SOURCE: Bob Pfeffer SOURCE'S SOURCE: Marty Robbins (1959) TEXT: D e Out in the West Texas town of El Paso A7 D I fell in love with a Mexican girl D e Nighttime would find me in Rosa's cantina A7 D Music would play and Felina would whirl Blacker than night were the eyes of Felina Wicked and evil while casting a spell My love was deep for this Mexican maiden I was in love but in vain I could tell G C G D7 G G D7 Wild as the West Texas wind D7 Dashing and daring, a drink he was sharing D7 G With wicked Felina, the girl that I loved A7 D e maiden A7 D Down went his hand for the gun that he wore D e My challenge was answered in less than a heartbeat A7 D The handsome young stranger lay dead on the floor Just for a moment I stood there in silence Shocked by the foul evil deed I had done Many thoughts raced through my mind as I stood there I had but one chance, and that was to run Out where the horses were tied I caught a good one, it looked like it could run Up on its back and away I did ride Paso Out to the badlands of New Mexico < - > < - > Back in El Paso my life would be worthless Everything's gone in life, nothing is left It's been so long since I've seen the young maiden My love is stronger than my fear of death Riding alone in the dark Maybe tomorrow a bullet will find me Tonight nothing's worse than this pain in my heart I can see Rosa's cantina below My love is strong and it pushes me onward Down off the hill to Felina I go Off to my right I see five mounted cowboys Off to my left ride a dozen or more Shouting and shooting, I can't let them catch me I have to make it to Rosa's back door A deep burning pain in my side Though I am trying to stay in the saddle I'm getting weary, unable to ride fallen Though I am weary I can't stop to rest I see the white puff of smoke from the rifle I feel the bullet go deep in my chest From out of nowhere Felina has found me Kissing my cheek as she kneels by my side Cradled by two loving arms that I'll die for One little kiss, then Felina goodbye. Copyright Unichapell Music, Inc. @outlaw @love @murder filename[ ELPASO TUNE FILE: ELPASO CLICK TO PLAY RPf
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Subject: RE: Origins: El Paso: Why did he run? From: GUEST,kendall Date: 18 May 10 - 06:37 AM Maybe this guy was a famous gun slinger. After all, the other guy drew first, so he must have been very good with a gun. Then there was the stolen horse.Just that would get you killed or hanged in those days. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: El Paso: Why did he run? From: GUEST Date: 18 May 10 - 06:01 AM I always had the impression he was unwelcome amongst the mexican community,who did'nt like an outsider trying to take one of their girls.All the cowboys were mexican |
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Subject: RE: Origins: El Paso: Why did he run? From: Geoff the Duck Date: 18 May 10 - 04:06 AM Just watched the Steve Martin video. Excellent! Listening to the lyric (if I heard right), when making a run from town, the cowboy did appear to help himself to a horse from out back. I daresay that the locals wouldn't be expected treat a horse thief well on his return. Quack! GtD. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: El Paso: Why did he run? From: JohnInKansas Date: 18 May 10 - 03:19 AM Don T got it right. In the "wild west" (the movie version mostly) that's the basis/background for the song, there was no such thing as a "handsome stranger" with money in his pockets and carrying a gun unless he was part of a trail herd and/or worked for a reasonably prosperous rancher. In either case, those with whom he worked were a "brotherhood" that didn't accept any ill fortune that befell one of them if there was someone handy to blame. Regardless of justification or legality, shooting a "person not regularly seen in town" was akin to the more modern act of hitting a member of a biker gang in the head with a shovel. Retaliation was certain, and grudges were held for a very long time. While in the old west there was only a small bit of truth to the "lore," it is unfortunately explicitly visible among some current (street?) gangs worldwide now. Today we'd say "He had to run 'cause the stranger wore colors," and everyone would understand. John |
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Subject: RE: Origins: El Paso: Why did he run? From: Nancy King Date: 18 May 10 - 12:28 AM Well, if Marty Robbins couldn't figure it out, there's no reason we should expect to! |
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Subject: RE: Origins: El Paso: Why did he run? From: Sandy Mc Lean Date: 18 May 10 - 12:23 AM Another view from Marty: El Paso City |
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Subject: RE: Origins: El Paso: Why did he run? From: Gweltas Date: 18 May 10 - 12:23 AM Thanks for posting the link to the video, Nancy.....it was a hoot!! |
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Subject: RE: Origins: El Paso: Why did he run? From: GUEST,Guest from Sanity Date: 17 May 10 - 09:24 PM He ran because there was a sale on used hot dog water! |
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Subject: RE: Origins: El Paso: Why did he run? From: mousethief Date: 17 May 10 - 09:22 PM Whether you like the song or not, or understand the plot or not, if you haven't seen this video, you haven't lived. Priceless. Thanks! |
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Subject: RE: Origins: El Paso: Why did he run? From: dick greenhaus Date: 17 May 10 - 06:40 PM Most of the shooting in the Old West (aside from destroying coyotes and rattlesnakes) occurred in the movies. Most folks didn't much like people who shot other folks. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: El Paso: Why did he run? From: Micca Date: 17 May 10 - 06:14 PM Then there is of course the "short" version, Preferably with the fancy guitar intro.. " Out in the West Texas town of El Paso I met a girl and got shot and I died" |
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Subject: RE: Origins: El Paso: Why did he run? From: JeffB Date: 17 May 10 - 06:04 PM Thanks Nancy, loved the video, it was screamingly funny. What is strange for me was that I hated the song when I first heard it (195?) but quite like it now, partly because I can appreciate the guitar work I suppose. The question which bothered me back then was - who squealed on him? Off he goes into the badlands, scot free, then decides to sneak back, and at least 17 cowboys are riding out to get him. Someone must have tipped them off .... |
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Subject: RE: Origins: El Paso: Why did he run? From: olddude Date: 17 May 10 - 05:48 PM i think don got it right. it all depended on who got shot back then, they called it the wild west for good reason |
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Subject: RE: Origins: El Paso: Why did he run? From: Don(Wyziwyg)T Date: 17 May 10 - 05:43 PM It's much simpler than that, I think. Trail crews became close as brothers with all they had to overcome on a cattle drive, and the impression I get is that they were the nineteenth century equivalent of a biker gang, when they hit town with full pockets. So it seems likely that he would have been in more danger from the cowboy's friends than from the law. Remember what was waiting on his return. "off to my right I see five mounted cowboys, off to my left ride a dozen or more" Not deputies, cowboys. Had they been deputies he might have expected that they would try to arrest him, even in those days, rather than shoot on sight. Don T. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: El Paso: Why did he run? From: Bonnie Shaljean Date: 17 May 10 - 05:26 PM I dunno - I don't think challenging someone counts as self-defense. "In anger" suggests passion, especially if it involves jealousy, and I always interpreted "down went his hand for the gun that he wore" as meaning the stranger reached for his gun but didn't get to it in time. Which he clearly didn't, seeing as how he ended up dead. "My challenge was answered" doesn't paint the other guy as being the aggressor. I suppose it's all in how you look at it... So in anger I challenged his right for the love of this maiden Down went his hand for the gun that he wore My challenge was answered in less than a heart-beat The handsome young stranger lay dead on the floor |
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Subject: RE: Origins: El Paso: Why did he run? From: Tiger Date: 17 May 10 - 05:12 PM Not a crime of passion. He says, "the challenge was answered" so the stranger drew first. Remember, this was the Old West. Everyone was packing. You could shoot horse thieves and anyone else who drew on you first. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: El Paso: Why did he run? From: Nancy King Date: 17 May 10 - 05:09 PM Whether you like the song or not, or understand the plot or not, if you haven't seen this video, you haven't lived. Thanks to Bill D for pointing it out to me a while back. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: El Paso: Why did he run? From: Bonnie Shaljean Date: 17 May 10 - 04:37 PM It's not self-defense, it's a crime of passion. In other words, Murder Two. He's in love with Felina but she's not - or at least he thinks she's not - in love with him ("I was in love but in vain, I could tell.") He sees her schmoozing with a handsome young stranger and "In anger ... challenged his right for the love of this maiden". The stranger's hand went down for his gun, but if he was dead in less than a heartbeat, obviously the narrator already had his out, ready to shoot. This isn't self-defense, and clearly he knows it. ("I had but one chance and that was to run" "back in El Paso my life would be worthless") And he made it to safety too, it was going BACK that did for him. Ah, ain't love grand? |
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Subject: RE: Origins: El Paso: Why did he run? From: deepdoc1 Date: 17 May 10 - 04:13 PM If he hadn't run, it would've been a different song...;) El Paso Dooley, maybe? And if the outcome was the same, the song might have been much shorter. |
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Subject: RE: Origins: El Paso: Why did he run? From: Cool Beans Date: 17 May 10 - 04:06 PM He challenged the wild young cowboy to a duel. Maybe dueling was illegal. If it had gone the other way maybe the wild young cowboy would have been on the run. |
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Subject: Origins: El Paso: Why did he run? From: Tiger Date: 17 May 10 - 03:45 PM OK, it's a slow day in the consulting business, so I'm going through a few songs on my list. And, I wondered, why did the 'singer' have to get out of El Paso so fast? He was, after all, a local (at least, a regular) at Rose's. He'd been around long enough to fall in love with Felina. Then, in comes a stranger, a 'wild young cowboy' - obviously no one knew him from Adam. Further, the stranger drew first - "Down went his hand for the gun that he wore". So, our hero killed in self defense. Isn't that the "Law of the West"? So, why was it such a "foul, evil deed"? And why did he need to run at all? Like I said, it's a slow day. |
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