BS: 92,000 more reasons why the war sucks

Subject: RE: BS: 92,000 more reasons why the war sucks
From: Greg F.
Date: 30 Jul 10 - 05:27 PM

if Assange hadn't blasted this information all over the internet then the Taleban would not know any of the details

The "Teleban" ALREADY knew the details.

Subject: RE: BS: 92,000 more reasons why the war sucks
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Jul 10 - 04:49 PM

The examples you have given cannot be compared to what the Taleban are doing in Afghanistan.

Your first covers Iraqi interpeters killed whilst serving alongside US Forces in Iraq, your second covers an Iraqi interpreter who was killed by members of his own family.

The Taleban are going through the formerly secret documents now in the public domain courtesy of Julian Assange. From incidents and reports they will access information that they would not have come across, from some reports they may be able to lift names directly, from others they may be able to deduce who the informer might be. There will be no real investigation of course, mere suspicion will be enough, there will be no trial, those suspected of being an informer will simply die, most likely by beheading.

Did Julian Assange think about this before he dashed to expose the contents of these documents - No he bloody well did not.

Subject: RE: BS: 92,000 more reasons why the war sucks
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Jul 10 - 11:19 AM

Point is Sugarfoot that if Assange hadn't blasted this information all over the internet then the Taleban would not know any of the details.

Idiotic, irresponsible and totally bloody clueless.

Subject: RE: BS: 92,000 more reasons why the war sucks
From: Stu
Date: 30 Jul 10 - 10:54 AM

"Well done Julian Assange what an achievement"

Suddenly the US give two shades of shit aboutthe people they've used for their ends? There's a change in policy that's worth hearing about. uh-oh though - it's not a change in policy, it's blatant hypocrisy as it's still happening.

Of course the people giving the orders, formulating strategies and sending our young men and women out there have no responsibility for any of these deaths at all do they? Never thought you'd be taken in by Taliban propaganda Tezza, even if you do appear unquestioning in the face our own.

Subject: RE: BS: 92,000 more reasons why the war sucks
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Jul 10 - 10:36 AM

***NEWS FLASH***

It has been determined that civilians are dieing in Bush's two wars!!! More at 11...

Subject: RE: BS: 92,000 more reasons why the war sucks
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Jul 10 - 10:20 AM

Well done Julian Assange what an achievement

Subject: RE: BS: 92,000 more reasons why the war sucks
From: Bobert
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 09:10 PM

Messed up war from the jump... Not gettin' no better... Gonna be an even messier ending, I fear...

B~

Subject: RE: BS: 92,000 more reasons why the war sucks
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 08:56 PM

"The leak pointlessly endangers people. It has changed no minds."
No, it's the war that pointlessly endangers people. And some minds need changing.

Subject: RE: BS: 92,000 more reasons why the war sucks
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 09:24 AM

There was no coverup. Day to day military intelligence, reports and tactics are kept secret of operational reasons.

An extreme but telling example, early 1990's when some jerk in Congress bragged that the NSA was tapping Bin Ladin's Satellite phone. Of course Bin Laden got rid of the phone. Then got down to business organizing the 9/11 attacks.

Asange is a self important asshole.

That's just my opinion of course.

Subject: RE: BS: 92,000 more reasons why the war sucks
From: Lox
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 06:11 AM

"Now apply some logic - Attempted cover-up = Unsuccessful cover-up = Nothing actually covered-up at all. "

Funny Logic ...

Try this - Attempted cover up = cover up exposed = caught = failed.

Your reinterpretation and redefinition of the English language indicates a creative mind of the sort that could persuade itself that the sun only comes out in the daytime.

But you've already clarified and confirmed to me that you have strong reasons for existing in a state of denial in another thread.

Subject: RE: BS: 92,000 more reasons why the war sucks
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Jul 10 - 05:37 AM

Changes?

1) Musharraf standing down as President of Pakistan was a pretty big change that had knock-on effects in the way that the Pakistani Army dealt with the Taleban inside Pakistan. The agreements and accommodations he reached with Taleban leaders were over-ruled and anti-Taleban operations commenced in Swat, Buner and South Warizistan

2) Increase in drone strikes against Al-Qaeda and Taleban targets under Barack Obama, which even the Taleban have been forced to admit hurt them

3) Replacement of ISAF Commander with McChrystal replacing McKiernan

4) 40,000 additional troops for ISAF

5) Growing competence and capability of the Afghan Security Forces

What has Julian Assange told us that anyone following what is happening out there did not already know? - Very little if anything hence they are evaluations and summations of rumours and reports covering the period 2004 to 2009. Evaluations, rumours, opinions and reports that cannot be checked, yet, possibly because of the way they have appeared, everyone instantly regards them as being the gospel truth (Psst - They were written by the same people who told you all about the WMD in Iraq).

What relevance do they have to the situation on the ground out in Afghanistan now - absolutely none.

Reported in the Guianard in the UK as reports of attempted cover-ups of Afghan civilian deaths at the hands of ISAF troops.

Now apply some logic - Attempted cover-up = Unsuccessful cover-up = Nothing actually covered-up at all.

Relating to the 92,000 "documents" over a six year period 144 incidents of Afghan civilians being killed by ISAF troops that is an average of two incidents a month over that six year period. Now get onto what the Guianard and most here do not focus on when it comes to the documents leaked by Julian Assange - The vast majority of Afghan civilians killed have been killed by the Taleban - no news there particulary if you are an Afghan citizen - they could have told Julian Assange and WikiLeaks that at any point in time since 1996, maybe even before.

Since April 1978 Afghanistan has been riven with conflict. Between 27th April 1978 and 7th October 2001 those conflicts killed, depending on whose figures you take, somewhere between 1,500,000 and 2,100,000 Afghan citizens.

Very roughly that equates to an average of Afghan citizens dying at a rate of between 186 and 260 per day over a twenty-two-and-a-half year period.

Worst estimates of civilian deaths since the US intervened in the civil war on the side of the Northern Alliance puts the figure at just over 33,000 which works out very roughly at Afghan civilians dying at an average rate of 11 per day (3 of them being killed inadvertantly or in error by Pro-Government Forces while 8 of them are killed deliberately or indiscriminately by Anti-Government Forces).

So if I had been an Afghan citizen old enough and lucky enough to have survived the period April 1978 to October 2001, since October 2001 I have seen my chances of not dying a violent death improve roughly somewhere between 16 and 24 fold. I would regard that as a dramatic improvement.

Why the turn round? Because since the arrival in Afghanistan of foreign troops for the first time since 27th April 1978 there is an armed force operating in the country tasked with the protection of the general population. A reduction in civilian deaths of 94% or 96% is not to be sniffed at. To ISAF and the ASF I'd say, "Good job boys keep at it".

Subject: RE: BS: 92,000 more reasons why the war sucks
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 04:25 PM

The leak pointlessly endangers people. It has changed no minds. It has only aggrandized Asange.

Subject: RE: BS: 92,000 more reasons why the war sucks
From: GUEST,999
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 04:01 PM

Maybe you would Jack. Not too many others will follow you.

Subject: RE: BS: 92,000 more reasons why the war sucks
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 03:31 PM

I wondered why a private had access to so much. But when I heard what was released it wasn't so much. As Amos and Teribus have said, old news. BUT, if one US soldier or source is killed as a direct result of leaked material, I would be in favor of sending a predator drone after the self-important hacker asshole Asange.

Subject: RE: BS: 92,000 more reasons why the war sucks
From: Stu
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 10:41 AM

Aw, Spaw. Spoilsport.

Subject: RE: BS: 92,000 more reasons why the war sucks
From: catspaw49
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 07:05 AM

Please don't..............

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: 92,000 more reasons why the war sucks
From: Stu
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 03:59 AM

Good on Wikileaks. We pay for this stuff, they supposedly do it in our name (though not in reality of course) so we should know the ins and outs. My gripe is there are no pictures. At least then then public can see what the bombs and bullets they're paying for do to people as well as read about it.

"Largely historical . . . "

In what way does that diminish it's relevance?

"A great deal changed towards the end of that period"

Do tell Tezza. How's it going then? Enlighten us with your interpretation of the current situation.

Subject: RE: BS: 92,000 more reasons why the war sucks
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Jul 10 - 12:47 AM

I agree with both artbrooks and Amos above. Largely historical people are now confusing it with what is happening in Afghanistan now. It should be remembered that the period the documents cover is 2004 to 2009. A great deal changed towards the end of that period.

All-in-all Wikileaks as a whistle-blowers web-site has now had two over-hyped exposes which were nothing of the sort.

Subject: RE: BS: 92,000 more reasons why the war sucks
From: Amos
Date: 27 Jul 10 - 11:48 PM

It has only shocked those who weren't paying attention, and those who wanted to be shocked about something. Including those who get paid for making miles of noise for distribution. It describes the situation pretty much as it was assumed to be. The only question I have is how recent the Pakistan dual game has been played, about which little in the way of details was released, of course. Politically the Pakistanis have little other choice unles they believe America will take over Afhanistan permanently, which it seems it is not about to try.


A

Subject: RE: BS: 92,000 more reasons why the war sucks
From: artbrooks
Date: 27 Jul 10 - 11:16 PM

It is a pile of trivia, mostly proving that the SECRET stamp is still wielded with wild abandon.

Subject: BS: 92,000 more reasons why the war sucks
From: michaelr
Date: 27 Jul 10 - 10:57 PM

I'm surprised there's no thread yet about the WikiLeaks disclosure of US-Afghan classified war material.

Apart from the material appearing to confirm that this fight is unwinnable, I'd be interested what folks think about the disclosure itself. Is it treason, or a heroic feat on the level of Daniel Ellsberg's publishing of the Pentagon Papers?