Lyr Add: Llantwit Major (from Singing Together)

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Llantwit Major (from Singing Together)
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 09 Nov 21 - 04:30 PM

Thanks for the corrections Sian.
I can't trace a discussion on ox-driving songs.

It seems Ottery's translation beats the one from Singing Together as I note that you also have Ffynnon Taf capitalised as a place name.

Cheers

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Llantwit Major (from Singing Together)
From: sian, west wales
Date: 06 Nov 21 - 10:29 PM

So sorry, Nigel, I just saw this as well as your PM to me. Just a few typos really:

O Mari, Mari cwyn,
Mae heddy’n fore mwyn,
Mae’r adar bach yn tiwnio,
A'r gwcw yn y llwyn
Hw ‘mlân! Hw ‘mlân! Hw!

O Mari lân dy foch,
Mae’n awr yn un o’r gloch,
Mae’n bryd i mi gael cinio
Ac amser bwydo’r moch.
Hw ‘mlân! Hw ‘mlân! Hw!

O Mari, tyrd tua thre,
mae wedi amser te,
Fe ddaeth y da i’w godro
Gan frefu dros y lle.
Hw ‘mlân! Hw ‘mlân! Hw!

O Mari, daeth yr haf,
Mae heno’n noson braf
A ddoi di maes i gerdded
Oddi yma i Ffynnon Taf?
Hw ‘mlân! Hw ‘mlân! Hw!

I'm not sure if, many many years ago, we discussed the Ox-driving songs and the extremely interesting folk traditions attached to them. I kinda think we did ...

sian

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Llantwit Major (from Singing Together)
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 01 Oct 21 - 09:35 AM

Ottery:
Yes, translation can be difficult if you want to retain the meaning and the rhyme and the scansion.
We have (very nearly) done it here at Mudcat back in 2002. The discussion with many helpful comments from the Mudcat collective runs over 3 threads, but you may find it interesting.
It starts here: Can y milenydd

Cheers

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Llantwit Major (from Singing Together)
From: GUEST,ottery
Date: 01 Oct 21 - 02:24 AM

Good point re capitalisation. I have Taff's Well stuck in my head because it's very near where I started taking Welsh lessons around seven years ago!

Much handwavium seems to have gone on in the translation to get the words to fit the rhyme.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Llantwit Major (from Singing Together)
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Sep 21 - 04:03 PM

Thanks Ottery. That is roughly how I translated it (with only O level Welsh some 50 years ago).
I'm not sure I would have capitalised Taff's Well, as the Welsh version I saw didn't have 'fynnon' capitalised. It might have intended the source of the Taff rather than the village/town of that name.

I'd also have had problems with "soon
Will the hour be striking noon" for "Mae’n awyr yn un o’r gloch",
and for "Even now 'tis time for tea," as a translation of "mae wedi amser te,"

Cheers

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Llantwit Major (from Singing Together)
From: GUEST,ottery
Date: 30 Sep 21 - 02:47 PM

Thank you for adding this, Nigel.

An archived version of BBC Cymru has a lesson based on the song, available here. Sadly the recording of the late Meredydd Evans that accompanied it is no longer available, nor can I find it online.

I also spotted fragments of this song on a digitised page of Y Darian (Welsh-language newspaper) from 1915 in the children's column.

The final verse in the English and Welsh differ quite a bit. The Welsh is rather more down-to-earth.

"O Mari, summer's come,
Tonight's a fine night,
Will you come with me to walk
From here to Taff's Well?"

Subject: Lyr Add: Llantwit Major (from Singing Together)
From: Nigel Parsons
Date: 30 Sep 21 - 11:47 AM

LLANTWIT MAJOR
O Mary, Mary, mine,
Come and greet this morn so fine,
The birds are singing gaily,
Make haste while sun doth shine

(Chorus)
Hoo on! Hoo on! Hoo!

O Mary, Mary soon
Will the hour be striking noon,
Come spread the table briskly
With knife and fork and spoon.

O Mary, Mary, see
Even now 'tis time for tea,
The cows are coming slowly,
'Tis milking soon you'll be.

O Mary, Mary mine,
'Tis no moment to repine,
We'll to the woods so blithely,
Fair garlands to entwine.

X:1   
T:Llantwit Major
S:Singing Together, Spring 1972, BBC Publications
M:4/4
C:Trad (Welsh)   
L:1/8
Z:DMcG 14/12/2004   
K:G
d2 cB AG (AB) |cB AG FD D3/2 D/ |EF GB d d2 B |dd cA (F3/2E/D2) | D/ |EF GB d d2 B |dd cA (F3/2E/D2) ||
w:O Ma-ry, Ma-ry, mine_ Come and greet this morn so fine,
D/ |EF GB d d2 B |dd cA (F3/2E/D2) ||
w:The birds are sing-ing gai-ly, Make haste while sun doth shine__
G4 (ED3) |G4 (ED3) |G6 z2 |]
w:Hoo on!_ Hoo on!_ Hoo!

(Welsh words)
O Mari, Mari cwyn,
Mae heddy’n for mwyn,
Mae’s adar bach yn tiwnio,
Ac gwcw yn y llwyn
Hw ‘mlân! Hw ‘mlân! Hw!

O Mari lân dy foch,
Mae’n awyr yn un o’r gloch,
Mae’n bryd I mi gael cinio
Ac amser bwydo’r mich.
Hw ‘mlân! Hw ‘mlân! Hw!

O Mari, tyrd tua thre,
mae wedi amser te,
Fe ddaeth y da i’w godro
Gan frefu dros y lle.
Hw ‘mlân! Hw ‘mlân! Hw!

O Mari, death yr haf,
Mae heno’n noson braf
A ddoi di maes I gerdded
Oddi yma I fynnon Taf?
Hw ‘mlân! Hw ‘mlân! Hw!

Sourced from Singing Together Spring Term 1972.
The work of compiling the ABC and copying the English words was done by DMcG, for ‘folkinfo’ but no copy seems to have made it into Mudcat (apart from a link in the Singing Together contents list). I’ve added the Welsh words from the Teachers’ Notes for the same period. The additional notes in the teachers booklet record:
"Source
Six Welsh Oxen Songs. Welsh words traditional, with additional verses by Tom Parry. English words by Grace Williams, who also arranged the music. Boosey & Hawkes 1937.
A number of variants of this melody have been found, the oldest one being noted about 1800. The Welsh words are (above)
Llantwit Major (Welsh Llanilltyd Fawr) is a small town in Glamorganshire about one mile from the coast and nineteen from Cardiff. The name is derived from St Illtyd or Iltutus (c520) who came from Brittany and under the teachings of St Cadoc, abbot of Llancarfan, established at Llantwit a monastic college. This college became a famous seat of learning and was associated with the Celtic saint movement in Wales. The monastery was finally destroyed at the Dissolution."
NP