Help: Psalm singing and traditional ballads

Subject: RE: Help: Psalm singing and traditional ballads
From: Brían
Date: 07 Aug 01 - 08:19 PM

I wanted to mention that the word Jesus uses askig Peter to wait up with him in AMHRÁN NA PÁISE fairigí has the same root as the Irish word for wake, which is faire. My father-in-law tells me he recalls sitting up all night with the deceased in many tenament rooms. That is the original meaning of wake. He remembers seeing men meeting keeners in the street and paying them off to keep them out of the wake, so this is a custom which did cross the Atlantic, but has not survived.

Brían.

Subject: RE: Help: Psalm singing and traditional ballads
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 07 Aug 01 - 06:01 PM

Burke, that is wonderful! It gives a marvellous description of "keening", so that you can almost hear it. Thank you. It ia a great shame that the tradition has been lost.
One of the great Irish poems The Lament for Art O'Leary (trans. Frank O'Connor) ends with his widow addressing the women who are about to sing the caoine over his body:

Take my heatr's love'
Dark women of the Mill,
For the sharp rhymes ye shed
On the rider of the brown mare.

But cease your weeping now,
Women of the soft , wet eyes
Till Art O'Leary drink
Ere he go to the dark school-
Not to learn music or song
But to prop the earth and the stone.

The account given by Clarke(?) suggests that the keeners sang improvisedly within a strict metrical pattern, which brings us exactly back to where this started; the Lewis psalm singing. It sounds so exotic that observers reach for some far-fetched analogies, as in Clarke's account where keening is compared to ancient Hebraic singing.

Subject: RE: Help: Psalm singing and traditional ballads
From: Burke
Date: 07 Aug 01 - 04:53 PM

Since you're interested in Catholic singing, here's more from the biography of Adam Clarke born between 1760 and 1762 in Londonderry, Ireland. It is describing his early teens, so it would be mid 1770's & while in 3rd person, I think Clarke actually wrote it. He was from a Protestant family. I wish I could have heard this. It sounds better than a eulogy:

The Irish Papists used no singing in that part of the country, in their mass houses. Their singing was chiefly confined to funeral occasions; and seems to be the simple remains of an exceedingly remote antiquity, and to have been of Asiatic extraction; as the manner in which it was performed by the ancient Jews appears to be precisely the same with that in which it is performed by the present Irish Papists, the descendants of the aboriginal inhabitants of this country.

The Caoinian, Irish howl, or Irish cry, as some term it, has been much spoken of, but is little understood. It is a species of the alternate music already referred to; and was generally practised among the Papists in Dr. Clarke's youth; and he himself has been often present at it: it was then in a state of less perfection than it had been, and now is falling into entire disuse. The priests having displaced it, by their strong recomendation of the Gregorian chant.

Mr. Beauford, in the Transactions of the Royal Irish Academy, gives a good account of it:-- "The body of the deceased, dressed in grave clothes, and ornamented with flowers and odoriferous herbs, was usually placed on a table or elevated place. The relations and the Caoiniers, i.e. the persons who sung the funeral songs and lamentations, ranged themselves in two divisions, one at the head, and the other at the foot of the corpse.

"The bards and croteries, i.e. those who compose the songs, and related the genealogy, &c, of the deceased, having before prepared the funeral caoinian, the chief bard of the head chorus began, by singing the first stanza, in a low, doleful tone, which was softly accompanied by the harp; at the conclusion, the last semi-chorus began the lamentation, or ullaloo, from the final note of the preceding stanza, in which they were answered by the head semi-chorus, and then both united in one general chorus.

"The chorus of the first stanza being ended, the chief bard of the first semi-chorus sung the second stanza, the strain of which was taken from the concluding note of the previous chorus; which being ended, the head semi-chorus began the gol, or lamentations, in which they were answered by the foot; and then as before, both united in the general full chorus. And thus, alternately, were the song and choruses performed during the night.

"The genealogy, rank, possessions, virtues, and vices of the deceased were rehearsed; and a number of interrogations were addressed to the dead person; as 'Why did he die?' If married, 'Whether his wife was faithful to him: his sons dutiful and good warriors?' If a matron, 'Whether her daughter were fair or chaste?' If a young man, 'Whether he had been crossed in love? or, 'If the blue-eyed maid of Erin treated him with scorn,' &c, &c.

"Each versicle of the caoinian consisted of only four feet, and each foot was commonly of two syllables; the three first required no correspondence, but the fourth was to correspond with the terminations of the other versicles."

Found in: An account of the infancy, religious and literary life, of Adam Clarke, LL.D., F.A.S. &c. / written by One who was intimately acquainted with him from his boyhood to the sixtieth year of his age ; edited by the Rev. J.B.B. Clarke, M.A., Trinity College, Cambridge. -- New-York : B. Waugh and T. Mason, for the Methodist Episcopal Church, 1833. Vol. 1, p. 35-36

Subject: RE: Help: Psalm singing and traditional ballads
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 07 Aug 01 - 11:31 AM

Brían, thanks for that.Máirtín Ó Cadhain compared Joe's singing of that song to a Fra Angelico painting. I've just been reading an article by Angela De Burca on Irish religious songs in The Companion to Irish Traditional Music (ed.Fintan Vallely, Cork University Press, 1999).

She writes about a small corpus of songs which mainly focus on the crucifixion. Some songs were collected by Douglas Hyde, and published by him in 1906 without tunes as Amhráin Diadha Chúige Connacht/The Religious Songs of Connacht.
Angela De Burca continues: "other religious songs...were almost forgotten until the 1960's, when the Catholic church's adoption of liturgies in vernacular languages inspired a revival. Meanwhile the recordings made by Seosamh Ó hÉanaí in the 1970's have ensured that his have become the standard airs for...these songs...Versions collected from oral tradition can be up to and over a hundred lines long, sung slowly, and with a refrain after each line"
She refers to some other recordings in addition to those by Ó hÉanaí; Caoineadh na Maighdine on Gael-Linn sung by Nóirín Ní Riain, with the monks of Glenstal Abbey, and Lights in the Dark on Warner/Detour.
So, yes, there is an Irish tradition of singing religious songs (but not psalms), which has been revived in the modern Catholic Church.

Subject: RE: Add Lyr: Psalm singing and traditional ballads
From: Brían
Date: 06 Aug 01 - 08:47 PM

here is a song from Joe Heaney(1919-1984) in Irish with a translation to follow. He learned it from a neighbor of his in Carna. I have no information on its age. I have heard of no one else singing it. It seems to be taken mostly from the Gospel of Matthew:

AMHRÁN NA PÁISE

'Sé Íosa an Fíréan, Dia dílis dhon Athair
Is é a rinne ár gceannach ón daoirse
Nuair d'fhulaing sé an Pháise agus bás ar an gcríoch
Ag tabhairt sásaimh sna peacaí seo níonns muid

CHO:
Is aililiú lea, is aililiú, is aililiú aililiú, is aililiú
Más maslathair ár gcolainn, ní baolach dar n'anam
Ná séanaigí m'ainm-se choíche

Siúlaigí amach sa ngairdín, a Pheadair,
Tá uaigneas mór ar mo chroí-se
Sé meáchan na bpeacaí is ciontach le m'uaigneas
Is fairigí uair liom an oíche seo.

Tá an t-arán seo déanta i d'fhianaise, a Pheadair
A Pheadair, caithigí an t-arán seo
An té a chaithigí an t-arán seo, caithfidh sé mise
Idir fheoil, anam is diachta.

Tá an fíon seo déanta i d'fhianaise, a Pheadair,
A Pheadair, caithigí an fíon seo,
An té chaithigí, caithfidh sé an fhuil
A bhí ag tíocht ina braonta as mo thaobh-sa

CHO:

Chuaigh na Trí Muire ar maidin Dé Domhnaigh
Go leigheasfaidís cnéacha Íosa
Chuardaíodar an tuama thart timpeall le mearbhall
Ach ní bhfuaireadar amharc ar Íosa

Thainig an t-aingeal anuas as na Flaithis
Is d'ardaigh sé an leac ina bhfianais'
Bhí leac ar an tuama- ní thógfadh céad péarsaí
Ach thóg an t-aingeal a bhí naofa í.

Tá sé ráite i dtairngreacht Mhaitiú
Leis an magadh a fuair Íosa
D'éirigh an coileach a bhí ag fiuchadh sa bpota.
Chuaigh ar an mbord is lig glao as.

CHO:

THE SONG OF THE PASSION

Jesus of the Righteous, true God of the Father
'Tis He who made our purchase from slavery
When He suffered the Passion and died for the pourpose
Of giving redress for the sins we have made.

CHO:
Is aililiú lea, is aililiú, is aililiú aililiú, is aililiú
If they abuse our bodies, no harm will come to our souls,
Don't deny my name, ever.

Walk out in the garden, Peter,
The grief is great on my heart
It is the weight of sins and guilt with my grief
And watch a while with me this night

This bread is made in your prescence, Peter
Peter, consume this bread
Whoever consumes this bread consumes me
Between flesh, soul and divinity

This wine has been made in your prescence, Peter
Peter, consume this wine
Whoever consumes, consumes the blood
That came in drops from my side

CHO:

The Three Marys went on Sunday morning
To relieve the wounds of Jesus
They searched the tomb all around with bewilderment
But they did not find any sign of Jesus

Came the angel above from Heaven
And he raised rhe rock in their prescence
There was a stone on the tomb-one hundred people couldn't raise
But raised the angel who was holy
It is said in the gospel of Matthew
With the mocking Jesus got
Rose the cock who was boiling in the pot
Went on the table and let a shout from it.

CHO:

The words I got from the University of Washington. There is no credit for the transcription, but it may be Sean Williams and/or Peadar Ó Ceannabháin. I have tried to follow the Irish directly as a guide to understand the language or learn the song, rather than make a singable translation. The song can be found on Joe Heaney's From My Tradition CD.

I realise this is not a psalm, but is a beautiful religious song in Irish sung in a traditional style which might give us a clue to the types of religious songs that might have been sung in Irish.

Brían.

Subject: RE: Help: Psalm singing and traditional ballads
From: Brían
Date: 03 Aug 01 - 05:07 PM

I am going to post some information on Joe Heaney and his religious songs, but I need to fix some transcription errors and translating etc...which will take a while. I will get back to you.

I am really enjoying the discussion so far.

Brían.

Subject: RE: Help: Psalm singing and traditional ballads
From: Burke
Date: 01 Aug 01 - 04:28 PM

I forgot I'd transcribed this for another group some time back. Includes some tune names for your too.

The following is from a biography of Adam Clarke born between 1760 and 1762 in Londonderry, Ireland. It is describing his early teens, so it would be mid 1770's. He was from a Protestant family. Italics are that way in the original.

Quoting begins here As it was fashionable as well as decent for all those who attended Divine worship on the Lord's day to take a part in the public singing, (for choirs of singers, the bane of this part of religious worship, were not known in those times,) so the youth spent a part of the long winters' evenings in learning what was called sacred music. A person less or more skilled in this art set up a night school in some of the most populous villages; and the young people attended him for two of three hours, so many nights in the week. All had books in which the same tunes were pricked; and each tune was sol fa'd, till it was tolerably well learned, and then sung to some corresponding words. Afterwards, each was obliged to give out some verse of his own; and lastly, as trials of skill, one made a line; by the time that was sung, another was obliged to find a line that would match in measure and meaning, a third did the same, and a fourth in the same way concluded the stanza; neither of these knowing any thing previously of the subject on which he should be obliged to compose his verse: these trials of skill often produced much doggerel, but there were, not unfrequently, some happy lines and flashes of real wit. Sometimes this contest lay between two persons, the second of whom had no more than the time in which the previous line was sung, to make that which was to be its correspondent, both in sense and measure.

[Section tracing this method of singing and making alternate verses back to Ancient Greece and Rome omitted]

It may be added that, their sacred tunes were few, very flat, and mostly of common and long measure; and probably of Scottish extraction. Tunes entitled French, London, York, Abbey, Elgin, Dumfries, Newton, Dublin, &c, &c, and the Old Hundreth Psalm, were some of the chief: and one or other of these tunes might be heard in every church and meeting house through a whole district or county on the Lord's day.

[Stuff on 'Papist' funeral singing to follow if anyone tells me they're interested.] A.C.'s singing master apparently included dancing in the later part of the lessons. There's too much for me to post on how he fell under the spell of dancing with all its 'perverting influence' at the age of 12 or 13, but did not long continue.

Found in: An account of the infancy, religious and literary life, of Adam Clarke, LL.D., F.A.S. &c. / written by One who was intimately acquainted with him from his boyhood to the sixtieth year of his age ; edited by the Rev. J.B.B. Clarke, M.A., Trinity College, Cambridge. -- New-York : B. Waugh and T. Mason, for the Methodist Episcopal Church, 1833. Vol. 1, p. 34-35

Subject: RE: Help: Psalm singing and traditional ballads
From: Brían
Date: 01 Aug 01 - 01:46 PM

Thanks Ian. I suspect the discouragement of harmony is in part a by-product of fleadh ceoil(music competitions) where individual performances are promoted.

I don't know enough about sean-nós to say absolutley there is or is no harmony, but I tend to agree with you that the evidence has been tainted.

Brían.

Subject: RE: Help: Psalm singing and traditional ballads
From: IanC
Date: 01 Aug 01 - 10:40 AM

Brían

This aspect of . Sean-nós is quite interesting. Only 30 or 40 years ago, English folk "experts" were still denying that there was any English tradition of group or harmony singing despite the evidence of widespread "West Gallery" music in rural communities and of traditional families, like the Coppers and the Watersons, who'd been singing in harmony for generations.

Seems like "experts" frequently tailor the facts to what they currently believe.

:-)
Ian

Subject: RE: Help: Psalm singing and traditional ballads
From: Brían
Date: 01 Aug 01 - 10:31 AM

I have just read Sean-nos & Scots Gaelic Psalms which I found very interesting. I believe the sharp tone quality of the singer she was referring to(probably Brigette Fitzgarald)is the nasal quality characteristic of sean-nós. Authorities on sean-nós will deny any tradition of group singing or harmony in the west of Ireland. It is unclear if this is because of tradition or ideas of Gaelic Revivalists. Sean-nós is actually a Gaelic Revival expression. John Moulden will probabably affirm that traditional singers in the North sing in unison. Any harmony would be the result of differences in individual style, not any attempt at formal harmony. Look for recordings of any combination of Len Graham, Robin Morton or Cathal Mc connell.

Brían.

Subject: RE: Help: Psalm singing and traditional ballads
From: Brían
Date: 01 Aug 01 - 08:32 AM

Try this link to EWTN: Glendalough: A Mystical Journey.

Sorry for the alphabet soup.

Brían.

Subject: RE: Help: Psalm singing and traditional ballads
From: Brían
Date: 01 Aug 01 - 08:20 AM

Ther was a special on EWTN on Friday titled >a href=http://navigation.helper.realnames.com/framer/1/262/default.asp?realname=EWTN&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eewtn%2Ecom%2F&frameid=1&providerid=262&uid=30004624>Glendalough: A Mystical Journey. I don't know if they plan to re-air it. It is possible to buy a video of the program. It examined a number of monastic sites including Skelligs Michil. The presenter showed grave stones on Skelligs Michil inscribed in Irish and Latin, so one could assume that Irish and Latin were used formally on the monastaries as Daystar stated. I wish I had taken some notes becaus it was quite interesting.

I know ther is a connection between Sephardic(Jewish in Spain) music and and Carribean music. I would love to see an Irish angle on this.

Brían.

Subject: RE: Help: Psalm singing and traditional ballads
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 31 Jul 01 - 07:24 PM

I have started a number of different hares in this thread, and I need to go away to do some more homework. Thanks to Brían, Burke, Daystar, and John Moulden for their suggestions and references. There is also some interesting discussion in the IRTRAD-L archives (sorry not to be able to link to these, but the URLs are extremely long - try starting from Listserv Heanet Homepage) ; especially Sean-nos & Scots Gaelic Psalms in the July 1995 archive, and an article by Michael Robinson (from standing-stone) in the July 1996 archive on Gaelic Heterophony.
As a matter of interest the Irish tranlation of The Song of Songs was quoted in an article in Éigse Vol II, signed Colm [? Colm O'Lochlainn], and begins as follows:

Tuggach póg re póig a bhéil dhamh,
Callíon ó shruch Íordáin mé.Repeated after each line
As fearr do chíocha ná an fíon créurag,
Tá cúrrtha ré hunngaibh éifeacht.
As olla t'annim amach séideag:...etc

Colm states that this comes from an entry in Robin Flower's Catalogue of Irish MSS in the British Library, and is from MS.Egerton 167 [not found in BL's online MS catalogue.ME],written (at Damme in Belgium ?) by Lucas Smyth in 1709-10.
The verse seems to be Long Metre, and may represent an attempt towards an Irish language psalter, using what would have been a familiar tune of the time. However, as Brían pointed out, psalm singing was never taken up amongst the Irish Catholic populace.

Subject: RE: Help: Psalm singing and traditional ballads
From: Burke
Date: 31 Jul 01 - 06:31 PM

Read Thomas Hardy's Under the greenwood tree : or, The Mellstock quire. It's a novel about the decline of the country quire. See the Gallery Music and Psalmody site for information on the revival movement.

Subject: RE: Help: Psalm singing and traditional ballads
From: Daystar
Date: 31 Jul 01 - 05:46 PM

There is also theory that the plain song had its roots in Jewish music I do not have the music knowlege to explain it also Irish and Latin were inter change in the Celtic church I will stay off the subject of Cromwell as that is a sesitive topic here Thomas Hardy had some intersting music that was use in church There was a gape time just before Hymns Ancient and Moden came in when the village band played for all the social events and for the church There is an amusing account of when after one rather heavy Saterday night the Band fell asleep during the service woke up all of a suddenand lunched into alusty ballard forgetting where they were So where does one tune end up? Looking at the rootes our music is a really intresting journey

Subject: RE: Help: Psalm singing and traditional ballads
From: John Moulden
Date: 31 Jul 01 - 05:45 PM

Take a look at Francis Collinson: The Traditional and National Music of Scotland (London, Henley and Boston, Routledge and Kegan Paul, 1966) for some information about this connection.

Subject: RE: Help: Psalm singing and traditional ballads
From: Brían
Date: 31 Jul 01 - 12:23 AM

Thanks, Burke. As said there are some holes in my church history. Sometimes I just need a reminder.

Brían.

Subject: RE: Help: Psalm singing and traditional ballads
From: Burke
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 07:08 PM

"Singing" the Pslams is what the Catholic monastics did at everyone of their 7(?) daily services... Gregorian Chant.

The Protestant innovation was translating them to the vernacular (English in this case) and setting them into metrical forms. The English & Scottish got the idea from Jean Calvin who'd done it in French, before Cromwell's time. There have been periods of time when no texts apart from Psalm texts were allowed to be sung. Others when singing was only before or after, not during the church service.

Subject: RE: Help: Psalm singing and traditional ballads
From: Brían
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 06:56 PM

In Breand Breathnach's Folk Music and Dances of Ireland, CÁILIN Ó CHOIS TSÚIRE MÉ is listed as the earliest notated Irish melody(1584). It is a variant of THE CROPPY BOY.

I don't know of any psalms, but there are a number of religious songs in the Irish tradition, many from the repetoire of Joe Heaney I will offer more discussion later when I have time.

I suspect you know a lot more about church history than I do. I believe that the singing of psalms was something that was started by Oliver Cromwell. If that is the same Cromwell who oppressed so many catholics in Britan and Ireland in the 17th century, there probably is no tradition of singing of psalms in catholic Ireland. I would love to be proved wrong. I would be among the first in line to get any music.
I wish you luck and I hope to see this discussion continue.

Go n-éirigh an t-adh leat,

Brían.

Subject: RE: Help: Psalm singing and traditional ballads
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 06:51 PM

Lovely site, Burke. It has some very useful information.It seems probable that I read too much into the CD notes;-ballad metre simply denotes a particular way of singing; it doesn't necessarily indicate that the tunes are from the ballad tradition, nor that the old psalters used folk airs.

Subject: RE: Help: Psalm singing and traditional ballads
From: Burke
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 06:06 PM

I did a search on google for Scottish Psalter and found a wonderful Psalm singing site. It appears the 1635 Psalter was published with tunes & you can listen to them there.

I believe the ballad meter is what we use in hymnals as one of the named meters, either Long Meter (8,8,8,8) or Common Meter (8,6,8,6)

Subject: RE: Help: Psalm singing and traditional ballads
From: Brían
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 06:01 PM

Oooooooooo. Let me get back to you on that.

Brían.

Subject: Psalm singing and traditional ballads
From: Matthew Edwards
Date: 30 Jul 01 - 05:18 PM

Following on from the contributions by Brían and others to the thread Breastplate of St Patrick, I've been listening to a wonderful CD of Gaelic Psalm singing (Gaelic Psalms from the Isle of Lewis from tapes in the archives of the School of Scottish Studies, issued on the Greentrax label CDTRAX9006.
I was intrigued by the sleeve notes which claimed that early Psalters used ballad metre which would be familiar to the congregation (but not to the Gaelic speaking populace for whom the Psalms were translated,using the Lowland metres which were foreign to their tradition,but which they retained when church music was reformed in later centuries).
Does anyone have any sources of information on ballad airs used in early (17th century)psalters? there have been previous thread discussions on traditional/folk tunes used in hymn tunesHymns and Folk Tunes and Songs of Faith
I have another interest: I've come across a reference to an MS in the British Library which contains an Irish translation of The Song of Songs from 1709 which has an interlineal refrain:

Callíon ó shruch Íordáin mé.
which is phonetically similar to the "lost"song Cailín ó Chois tSiúre mé
Is there a lost Irish tradition of psalm/biblical singing?