BS: Smokers in Europe?

Subject: RE: BS: Smokers in Europe?
From: *daylia*
Date: 21 Dec 02 - 10:16 AM

Yeah. It's my death, too. And I refuse to spread THAT around.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Smokers in Europe?
From: BusbitterfraeScotland
Date: 21 Dec 02 - 12:53 AM

My parents used to smoke, until they found out that their smoking made my asthma worse and then they stopped smoking.
My mum was the first and then my dad.
They didn't stop smoking by smoking less and less cigarettes the only way to do it is to stop smoking at once and say I won't have any more.
However if you want to keep smoking then go ahead it's your life.

Subject: RE: BS: Smokers in Europe?
From: *daylia*
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 09:47 AM

I'm guessing that when smokers light up, 90% of the smoke is released into the air, between puffs - and only about 10% is taken into the lungs of the smoker. Who really needs scientific proof that 2nd-hand smoke is dangerous to people's health - and that includes the smokers themselves? Is it not proof enough that it makes cough, your eyes water, your nose and throat burn? Aren't those the body's first 'warning signals'?

Who among us would sit in an enclosed space with a smoky campfire burning and then argue about whether breathing that smoke all day long was good for you? Duhhhhh...

I'm looking forward to the day when everyone who chooses to use tobacco does so with proper care and respect for (1)themselves; (2)the plant and all of it's effects on human biology - including the mind and emotion; (3) the FIRE which burns it, and (4) everyone else's need to breathe fresh air. If all that were so, imo there'd be no health risks from smoking.

daylia

Subject: RE: BS: Smokers in Europe?
From: JudeL
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 05:05 AM

As someone who suffers asthma I tend to be very aware of where people smoke as it restricts where I can go. In the UK most public transport is supposed to be non-smoking, although some people appear to believe that the rules don't include them. Most pubs and bars are very smoky, some places have high ceilings and good extraction systems but most don't, the idea of a non smoking area is good in theory but even where they are identified, because they are still part of a room which contains smokers the idea of a non smoking area is purely theoretical. The same can be said for most restaraunts although a few here and there are big enough to have non smoking areas that are far enough removed from the smoking areas that they do work. Most public buildings such as council offices and libraries are non smoking, as are the areas of cinemas where the films are actually shown (but often not the lobby or cafeteria areas). Please note I am not a health nazi it is simply that being exposed to smoke tends to trigger a severe asthma attack where I am struggling to breathe and it's often still affecting me days later. The jury may be out as far as some people are concerned about the effects of secondary smoking - I know it's immediate and very obvious effects on my personal health.

Subject: RE: BS: Smokers in Europe?
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 20 Dec 02 - 03:05 AM

Naemanson - have a look at the thread EuroGathering: GRONINGEN 2003. Would be fine if you could make it.
I wish you a merry christmas and a happy new year (sung).

Wilfried

Subject: RE: BS: Smokers in Europe?
From: Malachy
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 10:21 PM

Well I'm a smoker living in the UK. I abide by the rules..If I get on a bus or go to a cinema etc...thats non smoking, I wouldn't dream of lighting up! I notice that the younger generation pay no heed to the signs (I'm sounding like an old fogy now) No-one dares to confront them!
Sorcha..forget Italy..head for Spain..You can smoke anywhere you want there..no-one bats an eyelid!!! At least in Barcelona you can.
Mal

Subject: RE: BS: Smokers in Europe?
From: michaelr
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 07:27 PM

I certainly recognize that, while the jury is still out on the health effects of second-hand smoke, it is a nuisance to those who don't like it.

That's what I said. Truncating the sentence and taking part of it out of context changes the intended statement. As to "delusion", I was referring to publicized claims of deaths from second-hand smoke inhalation, which indeed have not been proven.

I've been smoking for 30 years, and quitting for 15. It's hard, but I don't expect any sympathy.

And I'm sorry for committing the sin of thread creep. This is the second time in as many days I've been chastised for going off-topic -- I didn't realize that's such a big no-no!

Chairs,
Michael

Subject: RE: BS: Smokers in Europe?
From: Naemanson
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 12:44 PM

Trust me, Wilfried, when I get a job over there I will start a thread to make sure everyone knows I am coming across the pond. I'm looking forward to meeting as many of the European Mudcats as possible. With luck I'll see you before summer.

Subject: RE: BS: Smokers in Europe?
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 10:28 AM

Naemanson - See that you get the job in Darmstadt. My daughter who is working in London tells me that the medical system in Germany is much better.
I should be glad to meet you; Darmstadt is as near to Frankfurt from the south as my hometown from north: just a journey of a day in medieval times. This equals about 20 to 30 minutes by car or train.
Post me when you're coming, please.

Wilfried

Subject: RE: BS: Smokers in Europe?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 07:57 AM

I'd count it as a victory if somebody was able to give up smoking because of something I said.

Subject: RE: BS: Smokers in Europe?
From: Bullfrog Jones
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 07:47 AM

Michael's and Misophist's posts are there for everyone to read. I just highlighted specific absurdities in them in (what was meant to be) a light-hearted way. There's no agenda. Cigarette smokers are hooked on one of the most addictive and perniciously-marketed drugs in the world. I don't really think anyone's going to stop smoking because of something I say!

BJ

Subject: RE: BS: Smokers in Europe?
From: alanabit
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 07:38 AM

Good. Let us know when you know more. From Darmstadt you only need to drive/take the train north for two or three hours to get here - and it's on your way to England.

Subject: RE: BS: Smokers in Europe?
From: Naemanson
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 06:22 AM

Oh, and you are right, the smoke is not a big deal for me as long as I can take a break from it on occasion. If it was going to be a big deal I'd stay home.

Subject: RE: BS: Smokers in Europe?
From: Naemanson
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 06:21 AM

You're on, Alanabit. If I can get the job in Germany I'd be based in Darmstadt. That would be fun because one of my family names from my mother is Darnstaedt. And we love to research our geneology.

Subject: RE: BS: Smokers in Europe?
From: JennyO
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 05:38 AM

Just observing, but I looked through everybody's posts, and it appears that the first part of the quote up to the first question mark were Michael's and the second part was from Misophist. Also the phrase "without internal combustion" was omitted from Misophist's quote, which tends to not give an accurate impression of what he was saying. I like accuracy.

Subject: RE: BS: Smokers in Europe?
From: Bullfrog Jones
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 05:07 AM

Michael, those words were cut and pasted from your post on 15 Dec at 10:12. How exactly do you think I've misquoted you?

BJ

Subject: RE: BS: Smokers in Europe?
From: GUEST,alanabit
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 03:35 AM

Naemanson - some bad news. If you come to work in Germany, you will have to drop in here (Cologne) for some dinner and a drop of something too. Our guests are welcome to smoke on our balcony, but I get the feeling that this won't be an issue for you!

Subject: RE: BS: Smokers in Europe?
From: michaelr
Date: 18 Dec 02 - 02:00 AM

Bullfrog -- if you're gonna quote me, please quote what I actually said, not what fits your agenda.

Thanks,
Michael

Subject: RE: BS: Smokers in Europe?
From: Naemanson
Date: 17 Dec 02 - 11:11 PM

I expect I'll be coming your way at some point, Greg, especially if I get the job in Germany. Next year my daughter starts in either Newcastle, Durham, or Leicester on her postgraduate work and I'll HAVE to come for a visit, won't I?

Subject: RE: BS: Smokers in Europe?
From: greg stephens
Date: 17 Dec 02 - 09:45 AM

This topic is alwys bound to be controversial as long as the anti-smokers continue to cross over the line between legitimate health concerns for and vindictive hypocrisy. Of the many examples of the latter that springs to mind, my favourite is the about-to-be-executed American criminal who was denied a last cigarette.
   England(in case youre coming this way naemanson) shouldnt trouble you unduly, with the exception of most pubs, which generallly permit smoking. Folkclub-type places in special rooms in pubs are increasingly non-smoking nowadays, as are most sit-down venues of all kinds. Work environments are mostly smoke-free, a measure introduced for the benefit of non-smokers but which generates extreme annoyance all the same. a lot of non-smokers seriously resent those furtive cabal meetings that happen outside the door to the car-park, where people snigger furtively and take the real decisions!
Should you come to our house(you would be more than welcome) you have to go on the backdeck (good weather) or the conservatory (inclement weather). The conservatory is particularly good as I have my 78 player there and a stock of remarkable old records. These rules re relaxed after dinner if there are guests. Then smoking is permitted with the port/madeira/whisky, after the final course is consumed(excepting nibbling at dessert, which carries on regardless). In those circumstances, smoking is welcome at the table. Those that dont like have to go in the conservatory then, or round the corner where the seats are more comfortable, and there is a TV.

Subject: RE: BS: Smokers in Europe?
From: Bullfrog Jones
Date: 17 Dec 02 - 09:11 AM

...the jury is still out on the health effects of second-hand smoke? There is a possibility that......tobacco might be relatively benign? The self-deluding ramblings of nicotine junkies!

BJ

Subject: RE: BS: Smokers in Europe?
From: Naemanson
Date: 17 Dec 02 - 08:52 AM

Thanks for the information, friends. One of the reasons I ask this question is that I live in a state where the "health nazis" have won. Smoking is banned indoors except in bars. If an establishment serves food above a certain level then there is no smoking allowed.

That has skewed my expectations of the rest of the world. When I started visiting Curmudgeon's gathering in the bar in the next state I was surprised and take aback to find that people were smoking. But, if you want to go out and about you have to put up with the local conditions. If the local conditions require me to breath tobacco smoke then I will bite the bullet and go forth.

Still, it's nice to know that there are other places than Maine that have recognized the wisdom of cutting back on places where smokers can fill the air with toxic reek.

Subject: RE: BS: Smokers in Europe?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Dec 02 - 08:02 AM

Obvioulsy I wanted to say "next table". I still accept you can smoke next door (next door being your house, of course).

Subject: RE: BS: Smokers in Europe?
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Dec 02 - 08:00 AM

Here in Spain non-smoking legislation is simply ignored. People smoke in hospitals (everywhere in hospitals I mean, not in the non-smoking areas), train stations, airports. That's one of the reasons why we don't often go to restaurants. You never know when next door a free man is going to exert his free right to freely smoke a 20-inch cigar.
And, yes, a lot of tourists consider this as "tolerance" and decide they can do the same.
I still remember those two tears running down my cheeks when visiting Stockholm:

-"Could we have a table in the non-smoking area, please?"
-"The whole restaurant is smoke-free, sir."

Health-FAscism? Civilization I'd say!

Subject: RE: BS: Smokers in Europe?
From: alanabit
Date: 17 Dec 02 - 07:50 AM

Oh dear! Did I start the scrap? I fired off a response to Michael's comment, which although defensible on factual grounds, may well have added more heat than light to the discussion. I guess that's one of the perils of firing off a swift response here. You can't see the person who has just posted, so you don't know if they have said something slightly self ironical and with a smile on their face. No offence taken Michael and no offence intended on my part either. As usual, I can't improve upon Wolfgang's impartial and informative post about the situation here in Germany. Merry Christmas everyone!

Subject: RE: BS: Smokers in Europe?
From: Dave Bryant
Date: 17 Dec 02 - 05:19 AM

At one time, one of the pubs that we used to sing in with Travelling Folk, had a landlord who although he didn't ban smoking, did discourage it. On the wall he had a notice which was along the lines of.

I don't mind if you you want to damage your own health by smoking, but unfortunately the waste product of your addiction, exhaled smoke, could damage mine. It also gets in my hair and my clothes and makes them smelly. I understand, though that you enjoy smoking and that it helps you to relax. I also have found a product that has the same effect on me - a pint of beer. This also produces a waste product - how would you like it, if after I'd drunk my beer, I pissed all over your hair and clothes.

There are many times that Linda and I will open a pub door, then turn round and go elsewhere because of the level of smoke. We both suffer from asthma (Linda more acutely than me) and often an evening in a smoky bar can mean a night of coughing and wheezing to follow. Very few smokers will believe just how long the smell of tobacco will persist in a car or room because obviously they are oblivious to it. The last time I let someone smoke in my car (with the window open) I could still smell it weeks later.

Subject: RE: BS: Smokers in Europe?
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 17 Dec 02 - 04:08 AM

Poor Naemanson - that's often the trouble with the forum. You ask a question, nobody knows for sure, but everybody gives a statement slightly related to your question, and finally, perhaps, you get a correct answer. Wolfgang preceded me, I only have to add a few notices.
Since the formation of a European legislation in the Community you may observe a tendency to ban smoking in the entire European Community for health reasons. Differences between the usages and laws of the member countries will disappear in some years.
The amount of ingredients like tar and nicotin will be reduced again at Jan. 1, 2003. Several brands of cigarettes like my favourite pure Orientals and Virginians won't be produced any more.
Railway stations in Germany will be smoke free soon, they're working on it.
In better restaurants it was always considered bad style to smoke at table, but since there are no ashtrays, addicts sometimes use the saucers.
It is a long time since I have been in Italy, but I think there wasn't so much smoke in restaurants as in Germany then.
Smoking on the streets is everywhere in use because the free citizens consider it as an act of liberty, even where it is considered bad style to smoke on public roads.

Wilfried

Subject: RE: BS: Smokers in Europe?
From: Naemanson
Date: 16 Dec 02 - 11:17 PM

Sigh...

Thanks Wolfgang for answering my question.

Please note, I do not expect to find pristine air anywhere south of Bangor, Maine. And nitpickers could find fault with the air north of there.

Also please note that I expect to face a smoky environment. I said so above when I commented that "I've already decided to go so I will just have to put up with what I find."

All I am asking for is some advance notice so I have a vague idea of what to expect.

Subject: RE: BS: Smokers in Europe?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Dec 02 - 01:36 PM

Jeri;
I don't get your point. A person who lives in America wants clean air in Italy ? Monty Python could not have raised a better question. It is not the responses that are comic, it is the arrogance of the question. It is like demmanding Parking For Huge cars at the smoke free bar. Get serious.
   If you raise these issues, expect a response..it may not be to your liking but you did ask.

Subject: RE: BS: Smokers in Europe?
From: Jeri
Date: 16 Dec 02 - 01:31 PM

Naemanson wrote: "Yesterday I applied for three jobs in Europe, two in Germany and one in Italy. This is something I have planned to do for a long time. My original goal was Italy but I really just want to try living in Europe for a while.

"So what's the environment like over there now? Will I spend every evening wreathed in smoke and come home reeking of tobacco smoke? Will I be able to find places where I can breath relatively clean air?"

You know, Monty Python couldn't have done this better.

Subject: RE: BS: Smokers in Europe?
From: GUEST,Geordie
Date: 16 Dec 02 - 01:12 PM

I guess this is a contoversial topic.I feel that many people have taken the view that smokers feel they should smoke when and where they like. That is not so. As a smoker I recognize that people do have the right to smoke free areas. However, I feel that I should be able to have a smoke and a pint without be treated as though I am the only earthly cause of pollution. I feel there needs to be common sense and courtesy on both sides. Much of the animosity is generated by the pathological self righteousness of those who do not see themselves as polluters..only "smokers" do that.
   I find it all a bite tiresome. I am allergic to cats..I avoid this dsicomfort not by screaming for a ban on cats, but by avoiding them when I am able. Common sense.

Subject: RE: BS: Smokers in Europe?
From: Jeri
Date: 16 Dec 02 - 12:46 PM

Naemanson, I don't believe it's possible to actually expect people to not fall into debate mode around here any more. Get near any controversial subject and people will get on their soap boxes because they don't really care what you've asked. It wouldn't be so bad if they just started their own thread to rant, but the rants just happen anywhere. It's an emotional trigger and they aren't capable of letting it go.

Speaking of making an environment intolerable, Frank (although this isn't directed at you or anyone specifically), the constant inability of some to stick to the subject and not start fighting is a form of pollution this forum suffers from these days. "Smokers' Rights" vs "Podium-Thumpers' Rights." Lack of willingness to consider other people and control one's behavior when it comes to smoking or when it comes to discussion, it's the same root cause.

While the results of the pollution here probably won't make anyone physically ill, the only difference between the people who think they ought to be able to smoke where they want and the hell with everybody else and those who think they ought to be able to say what they want and the hell with everybody else is is what their own personal unbreakable habits are.

Sorry. Back of my own soap box now.

Subject: RE: BS: Smokers in Europe?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 16 Dec 02 - 12:23 PM

state in Germany:

most local public transport smoke free (very few sinners)
long travel public transport with smoke free areas (roughly 2/3 smoke free)
close to all public offices smoke free
cinemas, theaters smoke free
restaurants, pubs: very few with smoke free zones (as a rough rule: the cheaper the food, the more smoke; hardly any smoking in dining restaurants; pubs: awful from the point of view of a nonsmoker)

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: BS: Smokers in Europe?
From: GUEST,Foe
Date: 16 Dec 02 - 12:09 PM

As an ex-smoker (24 years ex) I am more sensitive to the smell and when in Germany in 1996 noticed the over abundance of smokers everywhere. We would walk into a restaurant and turn and walk right out. Added note: When you die of lung cancer, in many cases, you don't just go to sleep and not wake up - no - your tumor in your lung bursts, floods your lung with blood and you "DROWN". Pleasant, eh what!

Subject: RE: BS: Smokers in Europe?
From: GUEST,Frank
Date: 16 Dec 02 - 12:04 PM

I don't have much to add to this discussion but I will say this, smokers have made their environment intolerable to non-smokers Have
created a form of exclusivity that is insensitive and rude.

Those who call the non-smokers "nazis" should consider the old adage, when you point your finger at someone, three point back at you.

Frank

Subject: RE: BS: Smokers in Europe?
From: GUEST,Lanfranc at the orifice
Date: 16 Dec 02 - 11:31 AM

I subscribe to the theory, first voiced to me by a friend in the cancer research field, that it is not tobacco per se, but the additives that are used by cigarette manufacturers that are the most carcinogenic component.

Therefore I smoke 100% tobacco cigars. Not a cheap option as most inexpensive cigars contain similar additives, but it works for me. I do try to be a considerate smoker and always comply with no smoking directives or requests, even if it means standing in the cold to feed my habit.

I also drive small-engined, efficient cars.

In answer to the original question, though, in the UK, apart from pubs, bars and restaurants (where there is often a non-smoking area), not many offices or other public buildings allow smoking, and pretty much all public transport is non-smoking.

Germany, Italy, Greece, Spain, France and Turkey are all more tolerant of smoking than the UK, in my experience.

Alan

Subject: RE: BS: Smokers in Europe?
From: GUEST,stigWeard
Date: 16 Dec 02 - 11:29 AM

The real problem here seems to be one of perception. Smokers (rightly) feel they should have somewhere to light up. Non-smokers (rightly) are unhappy with breathing carcinogens and smelling unpleasant (and they should know, they have a better sense of smell than smokers).

Saying "don't go into a pub if you don't like the smoke" is as unfair as saying "don't smoke in the pub". Who knows what the answer is. Probably ask if anyone minds and make sure your smoke doesn't waft into the faces of others.

Personally, I see smoking as a physical assault on a non-smoker. A smoker lights up in the full knowlege their smoke will harm the lungs and heart of non-smokers around, but they'll smoke anyway, and the rest be dammed. Not as direct as a kick in the nuts but even more harmful if taken regularly, and the intent is the same.

Mind you, I did smoke a cigar on Saturday night.

Subject: RE: BS: Smokers in Europe?
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Dec 02 - 10:45 AM

Personally I think that the anti smokers are just another lot of "my way or no way" Brats. I have known many a person kicked out of a Pub, I have never known a soul who was kicked into one. If it bothers you...avoid it. Also, There was an anti-smoking in a church hall across from my flat..The lot was filled yp with Suvs and huge vans..apparently the anti-smokers are not anti pollution, or anti selfish, just anti smoking. What a world of hypocrisy we inhabit. How I am tired of self proclaimed world savers.
   Perhaps Italy will change......just for you.

Subject: RE: BS: Smokers in Europe?
From: michaelr
Date: 15 Dec 02 - 10:12 PM

Hi Alan, sorry if I gave offense. I certainly recognize that, while the jury is still out on the health effects of second-hand smoke, it is a nuisance to those who don't like it. And while I still smoke, it's becoming more noxious to me when others do it, and I'll do my best to keep it away from non-smokers.

I am not unaware of the health risks, and I wish I could kick this deadly addiction foisted on society since WWII by vigorous ad campaigns. What I object to is the smugly superior healthier-than-thou attitude prevailing here in California.

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: BS: Smokers in Europe?
From: BusbitterfraeScotland
Date: 15 Dec 02 - 10:08 PM

I think that smoking is disgusting, and so is the fuel waste that comes from motor transport.
So these people who think that people who smoke are disgusting and horrible and yet they think that it is all right to pump petrol or desial fumes into air are hypocrites.
I don't like smoke and I don't drive either, I sometimes walk, or cycle breathing in motor transport fumes into my lungs and not only that but also these bloody factories that do the same with their waste products being pumped into the air.
It's not very nice however we all have to sufffer it and just grin and bare it.

Subject: RE: BS: Smokers in Europe?
From: Sorcha
Date: 15 Dec 02 - 09:36 PM

We understand, Nameson, and some of us try to behave and be sympathetic.

Subject: RE: BS: Smokers in Europe?
From: Naemanson
Date: 15 Dec 02 - 09:06 PM

I hope this doesn't devolve into an us versus them argument. I just want to know ahead of time how much smoke I'll have to deal with. I've already decided to go so I will just have to put up with what I find.

However, having said that, I would like to point out that I don't care how you kill youself. I do care about the rank odors I have to smell and the foul reek I have to take home in my hair and on my clothes. If you were simply shooting up your nicotine then I wouldn't have to share it with you. Unfortunately the drug delivery system is not self contained.

I am not a health nazi. I just don't want to share your habit.

Subject: RE: BS: Smokers in Europe?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 15 Dec 02 - 08:58 PM

Dear yuck !!!!,

No one I know is trying to claim that smoking is GOOD for you. But there is evidence, carefully ignored, that the real problem is the combination of smoking and the internal combustion engine. There is a possibility that, without internal combustion, tobacco might be relatively benign.

Subject: RE: BS: Smokers in Europe?
From: Sorcha
Date: 15 Dec 02 - 08:29 PM

Yes, we smokers really do know all that. However, what about smoking in Italy?

Subject: RE: BS: Smokers in Europe?
From: GUEST,Smoking yuk !!!!!
Date: 15 Dec 02 - 07:39 PM

Lets not fool ourselves folks smoking is a killer..if you are in doubt just take a trip to the cancer and respiratory wards of your local general hospital...self delusion and piousnonsense is not the cure...to find out about other smoking related deaths just contact your local fire brigade they'll tell you what smoking can do to even those that have never smoked..those thousands of poor souls who were powerless to stop their lives being needlesly snuffed out by fire in the name of tax revenues..corporate profits...and the aggresive defensiveness of the delusory nicotine addict...

Subject: RE: BS: Smokers in Europe?
From: mooman
Date: 15 Dec 02 - 07:02 PM

Belgium has a law, rarely enforced (as with most things in Belgium), obliging bars and restaurants to have a "no smoking" area.

Best

moo

Subject: RE: BS: Smokers in Europe?
From: boglion
Date: 15 Dec 02 - 06:47 PM

I have a bet with my daughter, who works in bars to see her through college, that smoking will be banned in bars in the UK by 2012. The bet was made some months ago and I am still confident of winning.

When I started working people smoked in the office. This is inconceivable now. Up until a few years ago there were still certain offices where people would gather to smoke. This has now stopped. I am sure that legislation will come for bars in the same way and there will be reluctance and then full compliance. The sooner the better!!

Subject: RE: BS: Smokers in Europe?
From: Gareth
Date: 15 Dec 02 - 06:38 PM

In the UK . Public transport, fast food shops, public offices, are now smoke free, the Health Facists have denied us smokers the smallest corner.

Bars and Public Houses can have no smking corners, usually with static precipitators.

To my kowledge one publican who banned all smoking went bankrupt within 4 months.

However we are fighting back - just this weekend an Airliner was diverted on a flight between Spain and Glascow, (a football chareter flight) when the aircrew insisted on enforcing a No Smoking Ban, and some of the passengers, Glascow Celtic Supporters, fought back.

Gareth

Subject: RE: BS: Smokers in Europe?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 15 Dec 02 - 05:56 PM

Even though I have had to stop smoking myself, I must support Michaelr in his HEALTH NAZI stance. In the US, whenever a scientific issue becomes politicized, laboratory whores come out of the woodwork with findings supporting whichever side pays the best. They're not completely off the mark with tobacco, I think, but let me give you an example of what can happen. During the heighth of the Hippie LSD craze, there was a reports, sometimes one a week, warning that the children of LSD users would suffer genetic damage and probably brain damage as well. Look around you. Where are they? Was the entire scientific establishment wrong? No, just venal and prejudiced. We haven't heard the last word on tobacco. Unless things change, we never will.

PS. My German and French friends tell me that the concensus there is that Americans are mad.

Subject: RE: BS: Smokers in Europe?
From: Big Tim
Date: 15 Dec 02 - 03:01 PM

Italy plans to intro a ban on smoking in all public places within a year, reportedly. Some Scandinavian countries also seem to be moving down this road. It's got to come.

Subject: RE: BS: Smokers in Europe?
From: Deda
Date: 15 Dec 02 - 02:57 PM

I was in Italy and France two years ago and in Israel four years ago. The smoking was worse in Israel, but still a lot more prevalent in France and Italy than in the US. When I look back on it I remember having trouble with it in Israel but not in Italy & France -- but that is no guarantee of anything -- just my impression.

Subject: RE: BS: Smokers in Europe?
From: alanabit
Date: 15 Dec 02 - 02:20 PM

They are not health Nazis, Michael. What are often referred to as "smoker's rights" are often the "rights" to spit carcogenic fumes into other people's faces, noses and mouths. I have had a chronic sinus problem for years, and being forced to smoke can cause me coughing and headaches. If I go to a pub, I accept that as part of the deal. On the other hand, if I am using public transport, I resent having to inhale. Smoking has absolutely nothing to commend it from a health - or financial point of view. It is a heavily advertised form of drug addiction which makes huge profits for well protected and ruthless companies. My problem is not with people's choice to smoke - you should be free to pick your own drugs whatever other people's opinions are. The problem is that people who wish to be non smokers are often forced to smoke passively. The pendulum has swung against that assumption - and it's alright by me.
Getting back to Naemason's question, I believe that France and Italy have both introduced laws which introduce smoke free zones and nowadays public transport in Germany is mainly smoke free.

Subject: RE: BS: Smokers in Europe?
From: michaelr
Date: 15 Dec 02 - 02:07 PM

When I was in England in the 70s, people were smoking in movie theaters, for Pete's sake!

I don't know if that's still going on, but on the whole, brace yourself: smoking in Europe does not yet carry the stigma the healthier-than-thou-and-we'll-legislate-it-down-your-throat crowd has managed to impose stateside.

Fight the Health Nazis!

Cheers,
Michael

Subject: RE: BS: Smokers in Europe?
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 15 Dec 02 - 01:57 PM

"Will I be able to find places where I can breath relatively clean air?"

On this planet?

Not for the last hundred years or so...

Subject: RE: BS: Smokers in Europe?
From: bernil
Date: 15 Dec 02 - 11:17 AM

Here in Sweden soon most (at least many) places where you eat and all other public places are smoke-free. As for pubs and such places I think people may still smoke there but there may be smokefree corners, I don't know. As I never travel I don't know about other European countries but I've heard that there are countries where people may smoke even in buses! It's just horrible! I wonder if Italy isn't one of the worst countries? I hope someone else can tell you more as you don't seem to concider moving to Sweden! But why not? ;-)
Berit

Subject: RE: BS: Smokers in Europe?
From: sed
Date: 15 Dec 02 - 09:30 AM

That's a great question. Who can add some more recent info?

Subject: BS: Smokers in Europe?
From: Naemanson
Date: 15 Dec 02 - 08:32 AM

Yesterday I applied for three jobs in Europe, two in Germany and one in Italy. This is something I have planned to do for a long time. My original goal was Italy but I really just want to try living in Europe for a while.

I have been doing a lot of researh on life in Italy but there is one thing that doesn't get any press at all and that is the prevalence of smokers in Europe. Here in the US we have different levels of anti smoking campaigns. Here in Maine there is no smoking allowed in restaurants or at any place the public gathers except for bars. Just across the border in New Hampshire the regulations are not quite so restrictive.

I have not been to Europe since 1974 and then it was a brief visit on a Navy ship. I don't remember smokers but then I was surrounded by smokers all the time, even in the US.

So what's the environment like over there now? Will I spend every evening wreathed in smoke and come home reeking of tobacco smoke? Will I be able to find places where I can breath relatively clean air?